⁠I Earned Millions as a Footballer But Retired with Nothing

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0:15Clarke Carlisle:I was just I was just I had no identity and no I know we're talking about money but money was a projection of me and my value and my worth and I used it in that way rather than making it work for me. Former Premier League footballer Clark Carlyle has spoken candidly about his mental health and the impact it's had on his life but until now he's never shared the financial story behind it so for those that don't know toby is stepping in for us while damien's damien's on the mend he's recovering from his injury uh thank you so much for joining us today clark really appreciate it you've spoken plenty in the past about mental health but this is the first time we're speaking about money um why why are you choosing now i genuinely don't know t this is a it's quite a pivotal moment for me this it genuinely is because uh all of my life finances have been a very secretive thing and they've been inextricably entwined with my emotions my value and self-esteem um the my performative identity and that's compounded When you grow up with no money and then you come into money, there's a new identity that you carry with that.

1:38Clarke Carlisle:You go back to your hometown and everyone's like, oh, you're this, you're that, you're the other. And if you're so inclined, you'll play up to that. So it had a huge impact in my formative years and in my early adulthood. But then when I get into relationships and life and family life, and I've got behaviours that are destroying our finances, it becomes doubly, triply, more secretive. You know, it's huge. And then you get divorced. So, fine, I say you. I wasn't on my bingo pass, but if you tell me that's what's happening, I should probably know you're wrong. All you are, getting divorced. And then I get divorced and then it becomes, it becomes even more weighted in emotion because there are interactions that are, whether intentional or not, and this is something that I will say about this, I can only speak to my experience, so I can't speak to other people's responses or feelings about that.

2:40Clarke Carlisle:So there might be one or two questions that I don't go into. But after that, you're trying to sort out family arrangements and finances seem to be hooked to that, you know as though they're their criteria for access or you know for convenience sometimes um so this is a really big thing and then over the last three or four years I've done some very hard diligent specific work removing the emotion from finances and understanding them as a practicality and once you position them as a practicality it I think it gives you a freedom to make more rational and constructive decisions. But still, the old thoughts and the old weight of finances kick in.

3:30Clarke Carlisle:So I think that I've done the work and I'm ready to explore this and be honest and hopefully articulate some of the challenges that guys, especially guys who come from a councillary state and then go and play football, the challenges they might face with their money. Well, take us back there then. Take us on that journey. I was going to ask, what's your earliest memory of money when you were a kid? What do you remember if someone asked that question? This is really interesting. I thought about it a lot because when you grow up in a house with no money, I think you can go one or two ways. You either become an absolute hoarder and, you know, not that you're a slave to it, but you will not let go of any penny.

4:15Clarke Carlisle:You know, you really could get it in. or and the other fork which is the fork that I went down is that you kind of get this this core belief that you know you can live without money yeah you know so it's kind of like it's lovely that I've got some but if I didn't have any I know I'd be all right yeah you know and I think that makes you a little bit more profligate a little bit looser in decisions you know a little bit more I don't know, risk taking, you know, with your finances, because it doesn't have that level of priority in your life. So my earliest memories, if I think about growing up, I mean, my old man, six foot five black guy in the north of England in the 70s, you know, hardworking, earnest, all the rest of that, but he couldn't get a job.

5:04Clarke Carlisle:No one would give him a job. And he didn't want to sign on the UB40, you know. He didn't want benefits because he was a proud man. and he used to work for our local church food parcels feed his kids and all that stuff but what did happen when dad did get money on that odd day it wasn't um again he wasn't you know squirreling it away for a rainy day we'd have a pizza we'd have a movie night you know mum and dad would have a bottle of leaf from house and a bottle of hock and a massive bar of dairy milk you know and it was like millionaires evening yeah and then the next day we were broke again you know and that's my earliest memory of what happens when you get money you get money and you just have this explosion of we've got money and then you just go back to the norm yeah so that's my earliest memory of what happens when someone has money but then to my experience of money and this is this is really quite formative um i remember going to high school and the lads at school were playing pitch and toss did you ever play pitch and toss penny up the wall no what's oh yeah penny up the wall yeah it's got loads of different names and i saw these guys lining up and they all had 20p pieces threw them against the wall and the closest took them all and i was like oh my days you know someone walked away with one pound 40.

6:26Clarke Carlisle:which in 1991 that was getting me 20 l and b you know that's like a six six return on your investment i was like this is a madness now the killer was i didn't have 20p to join in the game so i can see it now you know that was the beginning of me trying to find money by any means necessary so that i could join in this game and get more money and then have my little celebration time. And that was a really, really formative experience and beginning of a certain type of behaviour. Obviously, you're an ex-pro football player. When did you sign your first contract? Do you remember? And also before that, on the way to it, did you know you were going in that direction?

7:14At what age did you start to say, I might go pro?

7:16Clarke Carlisle:I loved football all my life, but I only started playing team football when I was 12 because we used to be in the Mormon church as a family. You heard of the Mormon church? Yeah, yeah. You can't do anything on a Sunday. You know, you're not allowed to work. You shouldn't be turning lights on and all this randomness. And so it was always Sunday league football back then. There wasn't any other kind of football. So I wasn't allowed to play in that. I used to watch my dad on Saturdays instead. My dad was brilliant. Merv the Swerve, absolute player. They used to have great names back then, didn't they?

7:47Clarke Carlisle:They used to have great names. but when we left that church that was when I started to play Sunday League and I was immediately very good and I signed for Blackburn Rovers and they just won the Premier League so I was in their centre of excellence I was in there with a guy called David Dunn you might not know him but he was he is one of Blackburn's greatest midfielders that they've ever had you You know, we were vying for the same position. They kept him on and released me at 14, 15. And at that point, I thought I'd never played a game again. So I was focusing more on my academics because I was good at that as well.

8:28Clarke Carlisle:But then Blackpool came knocking on the door, who were two leagues lower, and they made me a centre-half. And I went into there not believing that I was going to be a footballer, but just doing it anyway. and one of the reasons I just did it anyway was because I knew that you could go get a scholarship to America and that was my plan get a scholarship to America study law and and sport was going to facilitate that well Blackpool um offered me an apprenticeship and again same narrative in my head I'll go and take those two years but at the end of that I can still go out to America and um um they signed me up and I left home the day after my last GCSE 16 years of age moved out to Blackpool in a big five-story guest house with 13 other lads you know and I was earning 27 pound 50 a week let me tell you I was rich I was gonna say this was awesome this was awesome for me I I mean, we'd never had an apeney, never mind two to rub together.

9:38Clarke Carlisle:So for me, going to play football and being on£27.50 a week, I had my lodging taken care of, most of my meals, you know, so this was just spends. That was absolutely amazing. Yeah. How did that feel then, I guess? Did you feel at the time that you'd made it? Because I guess it's so many people's dream to be a professional footballer or just be a sports person. So you must have felt over the moon being so young. I felt over the moon at the opportunity, Toby, but I didn't believe I'd made it because I was just an apprentice. Got it, okay. I was a YTS, you know, and when you were a YT, especially back then, you're scum of the earth, you know.

10:13Clarke Carlisle:You were just... What's a YT? Youth training scheme. So it's an apprenticeship. Thank you. I love the new training scheme. There you go. Got one out. Was it actually a formal thing then? Could you be a YTS in another job? Yeah, yeah. Oh, right. So just like a genuine apprenticeship, right? Yeah, standard apprenticeship scheme. a two-year scheme and I didn't think I'd made it because you know we were hopeful aspirational but we were just boot cleaners and all the rest of it and the the moment where I thought I could make it was when I made my debut for this for the seniors because back in the day you used to play U team which was split into A and B team and you you wanted to progress from B to A to reserves to first it was a standard pathway um but I came in uh playing immediately went into the reserves at 16 and then I made my first team debut at 17 and and that was a point where I was like do you know what I might have a chance here yeah and um it was only about a month or two after that I got my first professional contract and that was at 17 years of age and I got 250 pound a week and that was just that was huge wow that was absolutely huge because i was still living in digs still getting my meals taken care of you know but i was on 250 pound a week um did you feel like a maiden man back then like where people say oh he's he's blowing he's gone he's gone he's gone clear or no when you got back to the estate were you well when when i see this is why my my experience is slightly removed from others because once i left i left oh okay you know i i didn't i didn't really go back we're in such a strict household growing up that it wasn't like I was with my mates every day after school you know all those times if I ever had a chance to to get out it it was finite I had three hours like you know five till eight p.m had to be in and that kind of dynamic that also instilled a lot of other behaviors in me because you know back then on the park you know my friends were smoking weed they were drinking they were smoking and I desperately wanted to be a part of the group and involved so when I got three hours out I was loose yeah and I was loose and quick because I knew I had to cram everything into three hours when these guys were having sleepovers in tents in each other's back garden you know and that's why they you know a lot of my friends progressed to other drugs like mushrooms and stuff like that but I knew I couldn't because I had to be home at 8.

12:49Clarke Carlisle:So I would just get battered in the first half hour, stumble around the park, and then try and make my way home at 8pm. And my point being, I was only able to do that once a fortnight, whereas the rest of the group, they were tight. I was playing for Blackpool, so even when they were playing Sunday League, they were still playing in Leyland, and I'm being whisked off around the county to play these games. so there wasn't that tight connection where I went back home every weekend but to your point when I did go back home everyone immediately thought I mean let's say I was on 2750 and then after a year I was on 250 pound a week as soon as I signed there all my friends thought I was on Premier League wages they assumed I'm on thousands of pounds a week they didn't know the reality of it and I wasn't going to tell them yeah you know that's an interesting point then yeah I wanted them to think that I wanted to think that I'm Billy Big Bulls you know I'm like yeah class of player you know so I'm going back and they're like oh you know where's your BMW where's your Mercedes I'm like don't worry it's coming it's coming when I'm just struggling to get a McDonald's Happy Meal so yeah the the perception was there the reality and the disparity between that was huge This ad's brought to you by Hiscox, so I'm not hosting the episode because unfortunately I can't.

14:16And this all really started with something that I was really excited about. This year I made myself a promise to go on more holidays as I tend to just overwork. So last month I went to Bali with some mates. On the flight I was buzzing, 10 days in the sun, but then life happened. On day three I had a crash with a car. I'll save you the details, but my arms were flapping around in a way that you really don't want them to. Fast forward to today and I've had two sets of surgeries on my broken arms. Looking after myself has been a bit of a nightmare and I can't really work that much. Turns out you kind of need your arms.

14:49It's the best reminder I've ever had of why the right business insurance is important. So I'm really happy that this episode is sponsored by Hiscox. They can protect you and your business for things like personal accident, which covers you in case an accident means you're unable to work. Plus it can help cover medical expenses and physiotherapy to help with recovery. They also do professional indemnity, employer's liability, public liability, business contents. They can cover your business for a lot of things that can go wrong. I couldn't make it to the last podcast recording, but it could have been even worse.

15:18If you're running a small business, then don't leave it until it's too late. Check out Hiscox and get properly covered. They're flexible and they're reasonable. There's a QR code on screen for you if you want to check that out, or there's a link in the description. Protection is subject to already holding a relevant Hiscox policy and to policy eligibility terms and conditions. Do you feel like a lot of careers, like you go to a networking event, people, it's so strange, people are like, hi, I'm T, what do you do? And so people kind of associate their personalities with their jobs. As a footballer, did your career kind of become your personality?

15:50Like, did you lead with that? Did you feel like it was your whole identity? I didn't need to lead with it, T.

15:54Clarke Carlisle:The whole world leads with it for you. And this is the thing about football. It is all pervasive. As soon as you're in there, everybody knows you for what you do. Nobody has to ask you the question until you get to certain levels. Nobody asks you the question. And people say that men have got no awareness and stuff. Men can spot a footballer and a retired footballer at 750 yards. you know and people see you and know you you see everyone giving double takes and everything so it is known what you do and and then with that comes the immediate assumptions and perception of what that job and life entails and so you walk into a scenario and you are immediately positioned in probably about four different boxes but they're all about your your attitude your the fact that you're lucky to get where you are, that you're unintelligent, that you're disrespectful, that you're rich.

16:57Clarke Carlisle:You're throwing money around. Exactly. All of these things and everyone has that perception. I used to play into that. You know, I didn't mind that because I, you know, we were brought up speaking the queens, you know. Mum and dad, they try to instill in us values and virtues that they believe we would need to overcome the barriers they faced. You know, so when I walk into a room and I've got my Chicago Bulls basketball outfit on and this black kid from the north and introduce them and say, oh, good afternoon, how are you? And they're like, oh, you're very well-spoken, aren't you? Now, they think that's a compliment, don't they?

17:34Clarke Carlisle:But I'm very well-spoken for what? I've been my whole life. What's the implicit? Yeah. You know. I can't be well-spoken. Exactly. So if I was just walking in and around as a six-foot-three black man, I could quite clearly denote that that was because of my race. Now, when you go in there as a footballer, there are compounding elements where I don't know if it's, well, I'm well-spoken for a footballer, well-spoken for a black man. So you can't put your finger on it. I can't put my finger on it, so I have to roll with it. And like I said, I used it to my advantage because I know that their perception and image of me is here.

18:15Clarke Carlisle:and as soon as I articulate my first sentence, boom, I've blown it out of the water. So, you know, I will always go up in people's estimations on first meeting, I would hope. So, yeah, it's a horrible dynamic, one that I'd love to change, but we can't. We can't change it because we're humans. You know, we talk about this notion of challenging and tackling prejudice and all the rest of it. we must pre-judge other things as humans it is an innate survival technique that then beyond that it allows us to function in the world i'm not going to walk around tesco and then take my trolley to toby and say ring this up please because i know that he doesn't work there but if there's someone in a tesco outfit i i'm not going to push it up to them when they're in the aisles and say ring this up for me because I know you work here but I know that's not your function I'm going to take it to the person at the till all that prejudging I've not talked to anyone but it allows us to function in the world so what I've had to kind of allow into my thinking is that people are judging me but it's a to position me and then for a large portion of the population it's actually for safety I'm a six foot three tattooed black man strolling around the streets in my outfits with resting bitch face you know I don't look happy on the best of days so you know it's automatic that people preserve self they're like I don't know this guy so I'm going to do this but then when you get into conversation and you get into a working life that's when it becomes problematic because people are making decisions and taking actions on that without engaging and knowing but anyhow thanks for coming to my ted talk that's right what's ted is that a premier league team that's my football knowledge just just on that one that's really interesting do you think do you think in terms of your relationship with finances and the the amounts of money you're bringing in do you have to then did you feel pressured to use that then in terms of to fight that prejudice or to live up to that expectation that people had have of you then so this is why i'm a confusing case i'm not patient zero because i i used it in different ways and my my upbringing and um the the type of person that i was meant that i was a people pleaser you know external validation was everything to me so it's not as though i had one approach that that served me i was whatever you needed me to be to be when i met you and then i was whatever you needed me to be tea and it changed from person to person in the same room let alone day to day and so if I'm in those conversations where I'm looking up the classes then I would like to come in low and and go up in someone's estimation whereas if I was going back to my friendship group I'd want to come in high and stand above it and be like yeah I'm the big guy you know I'm doing this yeah let me buy that yeah I'm good all the drinks are on me today yeah you know when when really I'm still on 27 pound 50 a week you know at that at that first point so yeah it's a it's a very complicated it was a very complicated kind of topic and issue and feature of my life because

21:50Clarke Carlisle:I was just I was just I had no identity and no I know we're talking about money but money was a projection of me and my value and my worth and I used it in that way rather than making it work for me I made it work for what others thought of me and that was irrespective of the amounts of money that I had in my bank account. You progressed very quickly as well from there. So let's take us through that. So that was Blackpool. That's 250 odd a week. Did you progress very quickly up the ranks? Well, it was four years I was at Blackpool. Year one, 27.50 a week. Year two, 32.50 a week. Halfway through year two, went up to 250 pound a week.

22:37Clarke Carlisle:And then about four months after that i had a girlfriend at the time and she got pregnant i say she got pregnant we you know we we got her yeah yeah it was a team you know i was present yeah and the club found out and not that it was a like a bad thing but the club found out before i told them and um they offered me a new contract so they doubled my salary put me on 500 pound a week so that i could then you know be a father and um and at the same time me being brought up with christian beliefs because we went into a pentecostal church after the mormon church and you know i still hold a an ardent belief and faith not religious just faith not of any domination denomination i wanted to do it right so i was like i'm going to propose to to this young lady you know i want to do it right i want us to get married and move in together now in order to do that I wanted to buy the best engagement ring that I could and I did all the research you're supposed to spend a month and a half salary and stuff like that so I went to get this engagement ring but I didn't have enough for it so what I did was I took out a loan to get this engagement ring and no one would give me a loan because I didn't have, I don't know what the credit history is.

24:07Clarke Carlisle:I didn't have any kind of credit card, any kind of agreements or anything. So I had to go to this high APR lender to fund this engagement ring. And that there was one of the worst decisions that I made. And you might say, well, why was it so bad when you're earning 500 pound a week, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, because before that, as soon as I got to Blackpool, Remember I told you about Penny Up The Wall, which started all those behaviours. When I got to Blackpool, it's Blackpool, seafront amusements and all that. We spent all our time in these amusements. And I just, I was into that something for nothing.

24:48Clarke Carlisle:You know, I wanted my 20p to be£1.40. I had all the local lads telling me the tricks on the fruit machines. And I had all the time in the world to play them. So I was hooked into these fruit machines. You know, they had£15 jackpots. so two of those and I got a week's wages it was amazing so because I didn't have bills at that point I could just go in and do that and I spent all of my money invariably on nights out and on the slot machines so even when I went I got my professional contract that didn't it didn't like curb my behaviors or take me to a new level it just made me spend more when i was there because i didn't need any money for anything else so when it comes to taking out this loan and making the monthly repayments i didn't have disposable income i didn't have any of that because i was spending it from a month to month basis mobile phones just came out they were on ridiculous contracts so i One for me, one for my daughter's mum.

25:55So it's absolutely ridiculous.

25:58Clarke Carlisle:I took out this loan and could never make the monthly repayment. So I started cashing cheques. Do you remember cheques? Yeah, I remember cheques. I'll let you remember. You need a graphic on screen now. Yeah, for something, younger audience members, a cheque. Oh, I used to cash payday cheques to make the payment for this loan. and once you get into that cycle because it's a payday loan once you get into that cycle as soon as my salary came in it's gobbled up by these checks and i'm going through again so i had honestly i must have had 20 separate checks around seven or eight different pawnbrokers all coming through on a cycle a lot of them bouncing knocking over to the next month and stuff and they had their little fee on top and it was just an endless cycle so even though i was up to 500 pound a week at this point that allowed me to get rid of most of those but then I was still running at zero on a month-to-month basis which made me want to go and gamble more so that I could have money to come and pay the bills and stuff oh so I was in that cycle at 19 years of age and then at 20 I got to move down to QPR and then talking about going up I went from 500 pound a weeks two and a half grand a week which is just insane utterly insane this was about 20 years ago right uh 20 it was 2000 it was the year 2000 so 26 years ago a lot of money yeah it was it was big dollars for me um and that was when like it tidied everything up but i was still paying this loan month to month but I allowed the repayments to go so I got to QPR two and a half grand a week I'm living out of an hotel it used to be called the Jarvis I think on Ealing Common just living there on a month-to-month basis at this point because I was so egocentric and full of myself I left my daughter's mum in Preston and I came down on my own to chase a dream

28:13Clarke Carlisle:after four months I had a new girlfriend I just started to rent in acting it was it was just 2200 pound a month it was rent above a Cooper's Court was above an estate agent from Morrison and then I got an injury I got a career-threatening injury and me right knee snapmare ACL LCL pop the TS, ITB, rotated the fibular head, dislodged the nerve, ripped the hamstring off. I took my ACL and that was the most painful thing I've done. That is crazy. It was comprehensive. In one go? All in one tackle. Innocuous tackle as well, T. I'd do 10, 15 of them again, but this was just the one. Yeah. And the reason why that was so seismic was because the surgeon told me my career was over, I'm walking with a stick.

29:03Clarke Carlisle:I had an op and I was flat bound for six weeks. and the coping mechanism of the time and mine was alcohol so I just sat in this flat with my leg in a brace and just dropped myself into oblivion and that was my first suicide attempt in life um spoiler alert you know I was found saved blah blah blah and I'm back to health not back to health but I'm I'm still here now that injury meant that I was uh out of the game for two years, 22 months. And for the first nine months of those, didn't really went into the training ground, because there was nothing that we could do. This was so comprehensive. It was, the surgery was done and it was kind of like, right, let's see what happens.

29:50Clarke Carlisle:And the horrible thing is, is the world goes on. So all the lads are doing theirs, they're playing every week and the gaffer doesn't speak to me. Coaches don't speak to me. the physio's like well actually clock i need to deal with the lad so you just you just chill you know come in once a week and i'll have a look at it and that was for like a six month period so you imagine me two and a half grand a week in my pocket living in this flat 300 miles from home i have a girlfriend but a girlfriend who in my mind i'm now i'm not i'm not of any value to her because i think my career's over you know so i think i'm no human all i'm doing is drinking playing slot machines which was literally underneath my flat and going to the casino and that's all I did for six or seven months just in there in that and that put me back into that cycle of um of payday loans again even though I'm on two and a half grand a week you know I'm just blowing absolutely everything um because I was buzzing that they didn't end my contract I was going to ask about that how did how does that contract work were you tied in for like at least a year or something a four-year contract okay so in a good way after four months i was just about to say that as well yeah so i was in a blessed position for that wow yeah there are no many players who've gotten injured in their last four months of contract yeah and there's no obligation on the club to look after him yeah you know after that they can just end it all so i was blessed because of that scenario.

31:25Clarke Carlisle:And I got in that scenario, again, into that cycle of payday loans, cashing checks. I was known by face in every pawnbroker in West London. I go to cash converters. I bought the same telly 27 times, you know, just taking it in, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I'll see you in three weeks, cash it back out, bang, bang, and that, that, because all I was doing was drinking and gambling because I thought my life was over and that I was terrible. Did anyone know about this or did you keep all of this secret in terms of all finances, mum and dad or girlfriend? No one knew about it. You know, mum and dad, they told me once, and this was actually 10 years ago when I'm in psychiatric hospital.

32:10Clarke Carlisle:And for the first time in my life, I'm being brutally honest about everything. And we're talking about various things. and dad said when you first went to Blackpool me and your mum discussed your wages coming to us and controlling it that way and he said do you know what son my dad passed three years ago unexpectedly so forgive me no don't forgive me I don't apologise for my emotions he said do you know what son I said to you mum he's got to learn to be a man He's out in the big world now. He's only 16, but my dad fathered me at 17, and he took on my mum who already had two kids. So at 17, dad's a father of three, and takes all that on board.

33:03Clarke Carlisle:So he was like, yeah, he's ready to step into the big wide world. And he said to me, he said, son, I'm so sorry. He said, I think that's one of the worst decisions we've made. I'm like, far from it. you know it i always look back at my upbringing and choices and actions of my parents never with the blame you know my parents all of our parents they do the very best that they can for us with what they've got at their disposal and what they know their experiences at the time you know so it's never looking back and saying oh you did this you did that it's looking back to understand the context and the environment because the way that that we are brought up does have implications for the way we go on and view and live life and the you know the choices and actions that we take so you know just looking back to understand some of those um choices and decisions and rules in the house and how they impacted decisions that I made you know talk like talking about millionaires evening and stuff like that I can see that playing out throughout my life because I always knew going back full circle that I'd be all right with nothing and this was repeatedly played out right up to this point you know even though I blow all my money I might be able to cash a check if I can't cash a check then I'm in an industry where everyone else is on good money you know so I can go to my teammate Richard Langley who was injured as well at the time.

34:37Clarke Carlisle:Langley's, lend us 500 quid. I'll give you back on payday. No qualms. No credit check. None of that. Yeah, sweet. We'll sort that out. So everything facilitates the perpetuation of that behaviour. Did you talk to teammates about money at all? Like locker room talk. Did any of you, or did you have quite a secretive contract? Did you all know how much you were on money-wise per week? No one knew with certainty, but everyone knew roughly. Okay. You know, you always kept yours secret. And it usually came out when people had the same agents. Got it. So they'd say, oh, well, I know he's on X, so I want this boy to be on X, or, you know, I want it to be over under.

35:22Clarke Carlisle:And you talk about talking to your teammates. We did, but never in an honest way or explaining challenge. It was always in a braggadocious way, you know. It's always like, I've got this, I've got that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the ones who were sensible just didn't join in those conversations. They just minded their business. But they were usually the ones who weren't the popular ones in the group. And me, being a people pleaser, I wanted to be in with that group and with those guys. So, you know, often there were whispers when you knew someone was in trouble, but no one ever directly confronted it.

36:02Clarke Carlisle:What kind of trouble? What kind of trouble? Do you know the vast majority of it was usually off the back of gambling. The world's casinos were on your phone and everyone had access. That was when the amount of gambling within the sector increased exponentially because everyone had direct access to the world's casinos and gambling facilities here. And it wasn't just that it was now available. All of the operators were predatory. They were predatory. I remember at Burnley when we got promoted to the Premier League, we came in first day of pre-season, and on everyone's chair was a gift box from a gambling operator.

36:45Clarke Carlisle:And you opened it, and it had all these goodies in, and it had a£5 ,000 free bet. It had all of these blah, blah, blah, blah, blahs. It's like, yeah, welcome to the big time club and all that. And when people realise and coaches and sports science came in and then sports psychology and they wanted to take that away. So there was less gambling on the bus, but that was irrelevant because now it was here. So you couldn't see it. It just effectively drove it into the tech sphere and underground. And I fell foul of that. what I really want to get across because this is something that I don't think people understand is the mechanics of having no money gambling and having to present that you've got money in that phase I would say from it went right from Blackpool right through my QPR life and I only ever tried to come out of it at Watford, but then fell back in, tried to come out at Burnley and fell back in.

37:53Clarke Carlisle:And I would say gambling plays the biggest part in that. Because when you live a gambling life, you're perpetually behind on all finances, perpetually behind. And if you're gambling pay packet to pay packet, then there'll be periods, let's say it's a week, there'll be a week there where I'm living in central London and I have to go to let's say I don't know whether it's training or or I've got to go to the ground I've got to do this that and the other and I've got to pay nine pounds to park outside there for two hours but I haven't got nine pounds to pay that so I'm going to run the risk I'll run the risk I'll go in there I'll come out and then I've got a£60 parking fine, like devastated.