Is it too late to start investing?

0:01You know what I love, Damo? Things that save me time. You don't have YouTube premium, mate, so I just don't believe that. Granted, I'll give you that one. However, I've got one for you. A great time saver in personal finance is Money Week magazine. They spend a lot of time distilling the biggest stories in personal finance down into consumable chunks, so you don't have to scroll and scroll. They give practical tips on savings, investments, pensions, the UK economy, the global economy. It's like your five a day, but for finance. If you want to give Money Week a try, you can get six issues in print and the app absolutely free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money.

0:34After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 a quarter on the subscription, which is exclusive to Making Money listeners. And that's moneyweek.com forward slash money. But there's a link in the description if you just want to click that. I was in phenomenal amounts of debt. I don't think I ever earned more than 20 ,000 up until the age of 30. I had absolutely no idea what to do. Georgie Frost is editor-at-large at Times Money Mentor and one of the hosts of the Daily Mail's This Is Money podcast. I didn't know in my 20s, up to my eyeballs in debt, basically homeless, that all of that would lead me to here.

1:09It's like the most valuable lesson I've ever learned, but I would never want my son to go through that. I didn't start a business till I was 35. I had nothing in my£1 ,500 in my pension when I was 31. It's not too late.

1:26So you are a finance journalist, but you started as a sports journalist. Yep. You're a Derby fan as well, is that right? I'm a Derby season ticket, I'll tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't link that to my sports journalism because it's not a pleasant watch to go and watch Derby every other week. But yes, I started my career as a sports journalist in the North East. How did you make that leap from sports journalism to finance? Do you want the short version or the long version? No, I mean, we're here for an hour. All right, great, well, settling, settling. No, so I was a jobbing sports reporter in the Northeast and I just sort of started my career and I had quite a major back injury.

2:08I had a slit disc that then burst and cut a feeling down my leg. I've really gone hard early, haven't I, with a really optimistic story. So anyway, I sort of And jogged along for a few years like that, but I was left in chronic pain. I had a back operation. And basically it was a consultant that said, if you don't stop driving, which is a sports reporter is pretty key, you will end up in a wheelchair by the time you're 40. So at the time I was in Manchester and I thought, well, that's no good, is it? I'm going to go home, go back to the South and get myself a proper job, like in PR, which anyone who knows me, I couldn't sell beer to an alcoholic.

2:48I'm so poor. So anyway, I came down south to get this proper job. And while I was there, I did this month-long residential course. It just, the timings coordinated on how to learn to live life in pain. It was an input at St. Thomas's Hospital. And it was - That's a course. A course. That's a crazy thing to learn. NHS, absolutely phenomenal. I mean, imagine it. It's like the most unergonomically whatever chairs. I mean, these are nothing in comparison. All sat around. It was a bunch of people that you wouldn't probably cross paths with normally. I met all sorts of people there, and we've all got this one thing in common, and that is we have tried everything, basically.

3:39I mean, I remember the darkest moment. I've really gone hard early, haven't I? darkest moment of my life was when I was sat around bearing my interest sat around with all these people you know all struggling in pain and a doctor was like why why haven't you what what have you tried what have you tried and we were like tens machines surgery drugs etc and the board filled up and then all of a sudden she went why is there so many and I went because there's no cure none of them work like panning in and I thought my god there is no cure so for I don't know six years I'd been jogging around thinking it's my fault I need to pay more on you know Pilates or chiropractor or maybe next year if I just you know and you don't earn a lot as a sports reporter and I didn't really have the confidence or the ability to to get a full-time job I was in pain all the time and I thought wow now my life has to change and at that same time I was actually freelancing as a sports reporter in uh BBC London a job came up and it was for basically I remember it as I'm sure it wasn't this but anyone who knows anything about radio and I was like I know about radio I'll get my proper job in PR while I look for it but I know something about radio anyway I uh got in contact with them and it turned out they were starting a brand new radio station it was called share radio.

5:03And it transpired, it was a finance radio station. And I remember they called me up because I was like, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe I can help out. And they were like, we want to put you as a presenter. Okay, cool. As the investing show. And I thought, oh my God, you're kidding me. I don't know anything about this. I mean, I didn't know really anything about finance at all. I was in phenomenal amounts of debt bearing in mind, you know, I don't think I ever earned more than 20 ,000 up until the age of 30 because of my back. I couldn't work full time. I was paying all this stuff to try and get help for my back, et cetera, et cetera.

5:33So I remember saying to my mates, so apparently there's a job going as a finance presenter. They did eventually say personal finance and consumer. And my mates were like, you're kidding. You know nothing about finance. So I don't know, maybe a moment of chutzpah or something. I went, yeah, all right, I'll do it. And they kept saying, oh, do you want to have a show reel, a little test? Yeah, I kept pushing them off, pushing them off. So the time I actually went live was the time they launched. They were obviously really desperate. Anyway, so I had this four-hour daily finance show. And I remember the first, some of the first interviews were like, so, pensions.

6:09Tell me about pensions. How did you get involved in that? I mean, literally, I had no idea. Four hours you've got to fill and you've got 25 minutes with a guy who knows about pensions. And I was like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing in the world. Anyway, 18 months later, fast forward, and I was named Headline Money's Financial Broadcaster of the Year. and it taught me lots of important lessons but one of them was what you think could be your greatest weakness could actually be your greatest strength and I think what resonated and I think what how you guys resonate and whatever is there's realness there I came with experience I wasn't patronizing people we all know that the city and it still still does this uh speaks in jargon you know it's very exclusive the white towers of the city you're not part of this and I was like no I I back myself.

6:54I'm intelligent. I'm just not engaged. And it reminded me of when I was little, and I was a mad sports fan, obviously, but most of my friends were girls, and they weren't interested. And I was like, well, then it's my responsibility to find a way. And if it's David Beckham in his underpants, right, I'm going to find a way to make you interested in what I'm interested in. And that kind of became my raison d 'etre, and that's a really long-winded way of saying how I got into finance. Have we used up an hour yet? So there you go. The rest is history. How's your back now? It's still the same. You can't drive still?

7:29No, I had an operation. I drive. I'm not a very good driver, but that's got nothing to do with my back. But I did stop driving for five years, and I didn't run either. And then it got to the age of about, I definitely had a midlife crisis. I'm confident I had been about 40. And I was like, I'm going to do a 10K run because I like the medals. I was like, that's cool. Validate me. And so I saw it on Instagram. Most people just buy lipstick or whatever. I bought a 10k run in London and then got a bit of a buzz for it. So I've done maybe like five half marathons in a couple of years that I've been doing it.

7:59I sort of tailed off a bit this year. This is a rest year. But I was like, it's amazing what people tell you that you can't do. And this is not health advice. This is not financial advice. But like, you know yourself better than anybody else. And I do think this extends to finance to a certain degree is people will tell you things, you will listen to things and you will hear this advice. But actually You always have to know yourself and apply it to you. What works for you? People will pigeonhole you. People will tell you you can't do something, you should do something. Have the confidence of your own convictions to go, do you know what?

8:33Let's try this. When my mum was in school, they were like, oh, maybe you should be a nurse because it's really hard to be a doctor. And then she's like, no, screw you guys, I'm going to be a doctor. And then she was like the only doctor from her class. And then now she's like a really big doctor. So she always told me, like, don't let other people's views kind of pigeonhole you or, like, stop you from achieving what you think you, or you know you can achieve. Similar situation. My mum is a doctor. Yeah. And she was also, when she was bright and they were like, you know, but she's a woman of a certain age and it's like, that just didn't happen.

9:01Yeah, they were like... She was like, nah. Yeah, I'm going to do it. Because obviously they were like, oh, they're mainly men doctors back then. So she was like, oh. Yeah, people always like to me, like, how did you become a YouTuber? So I tried. I actually gave it a go. Who did you? Like what? Because there's a part of me that, and I've complained about this before, is that, not complained, but finance journalists will moan about Fimfluences. And I say, all right, if you've got a problem with it and you've got the knowledge, which, you know, we do, we do have the knowledge, like, well, you do it.

9:31But there's something that's like, I don't know, what is holding all of these people back? How were you able to go, do you know what? I'm going to stick a camera in my face and I'm going to feel like I have the confidence to say to people whatever you want to tell them. Naivety and desperation. Love that. Yeah. That's drivers. Naivety around the fact of how hard it is to make content. When you've never made it, you think, oh, how hard can it be? Your peers probably are too aware of how hard it is to make good content. Oh, my God. the first thing i say is you know when young people say to me i want to be a youtuber when i go up do you have any idea how hard that is and i've i've done hard yards in my career so many people you've got a light sky only whereas i'm like i'll just bang a light in my face and do you know what i mean it's you're too exposed to the machine yeah and you see all the elements that of these massive corporations that employ hundreds of people that it feels too complex for me it was just i'll just use my iphone and yeah i got to 80 000 subscribers on that and then desperation of you know that kind of quiet desperation of i hate my life i want something different uh you know when i say hate my life i mean i'm unfulfilled in what i do i feel like i've got more in me but you had a well-paid job at the time oh well that doesn't mean anything i mean like yeah i mean it doesn't mean a lot to to like embark on something when you've got a well-paid job like a lot of people i want to follow my dream to make more money or because this is what i want to do but like or i want more money but like if you already have if you're comfortable it's harder to like yeah my uncle describes me as a risk taker but i don't think i'm a risk taker i just think uh like to me the biggest risk was being miserable doing what i was doing you've touching on something that's just really resonating with me a lot at the moment so i don't mind saying i'm quite openly open about this but i tried to have kids i couldn't have kids i failed had ivf didn't work and i've coming out of the back of that at this present moment and thinking purpose and we were talking on our podcast this is money podcast the other day about you know what would happen if you won the euro billions or whatever it is and we're saying the most important thing is that you have a purpose because you read a lot about these very rich people that are very depressed and stuff because once you have all the money in the world you've got what's there to worry about so you probably come and go in on yourself a little bit like why am i here what's the point and i always think you know my parents must be thinking oh you know self-indulgent but actually i do think it's really important when you feel like, and you have a gift, you know, and you found that gift.

11:59I think that's really important. And I'm someone who's done a job that I love my job. I absolutely, I'm so fortunate. Who said it that, you know, if you find a job you love, you'll never work a day in your life. I mean, I work, right. But you know, it is so fulfilling, but there is a point I think where people feel nowadays, especially, and I don't know what it was like living in the old days, but like that you need that purpose. So when you say, you know, I hate my life, I don't know, I take that with a pinch of soul, but you say my life wasn't fulfilling me in what I was doing at the moment.

12:30And I think more and more people are thinking that way. And while I hear, and I link this to the argument about, oh, you know, things were better in the past because you had your DB pensions, you had your job for life, you know, you could buy house prices, you know, multiples of, you know twice your income whatever okay yeah look there's no doubt about that but actually the choice now the choice now that you could do something that fulfills you the choice especially as women you know you can get access to credit cards like 1976 or something the choices that we have and opportunities i think are so much greater to do things which have meaning and purpose for us so that's my argument yeah the average person will have 12 jobs that's like 12 of choices they've made whereas my grandparent the job they got on 18 was the job they died with basically they went just so they could secure that pension because they were basically just waiting for this db scheme and did did they love that job like the thing i did at 18 i i wouldn't like doing now it's the thing you said about that fear of could this be the life i lead that's a luxury to be able to ask myself that forever that's a luxury to be able to have that and act on it but You say that, yes and no.

13:46Yes, it's a luxury. I get where you're coming from. But I think we should all be able to say, is this the life that I want to live? Don't get me wrong, we can't all just head off and live a life of whatever, retreat in Bali or something. But my dad had this saying when I was little that every day should be a holiday. even if you have to do a job that is not that fulfilling for you you do have hours outside to make sure that there are things that you can do we've all done bump grind work oh my word we've all done bump grind work but make sure that every day has that little bit of joy a little bit of purpose a little bit drive something to move you forward and again you could argue the same thing with savings save a little bit now just have that focus on the fact that I just couldn't I recently bought a house right first house in 40 and I sort of asked myself you know I've got two dogs could I see myself as like a Surrey dog mom for the rest of my life at 40 no not even so already I'm like right we're next it's taking me this long to buy a house so that which then leads me on to this idea that we have to have this like, this is your linear path for life.

15:05No more. Have you read The 100 Year Life? There's a book called 100 Year Life. There's actually a new one that says that actually, because we're all living longer, we're all not just going to have like different jobs, but different careers. And then maybe like in our 40s, we're going to have a gap year, you know? Gap year. Gap year. But actually, that is the way that we need to think about things like differently because the world has massively changed. I think that I've got a few chapters in me. I think what I do in my 50s will be vastly different. And I'm not even comfortable sitting here going, I'm going to be like the David Attenborough of personal finance.

15:36I don't like that. I just be this guy that goes until I'm 80, 90. Right. I wondered where that was going. I was like, and as you see the bank. Yeah. I was like, yeah, okay. Do you know what I mean? Like this, like, or Martin Lewis, who is, he's that guy, right? And I'm thinking, well, maybe I might get to 45 and go, oh, I want to start playing some music or I want to do this. I want to do that. Yeah, I feel. So a sports journalist, 10 years. finance it's now 11 years squeaky bum time uh and then i'm like okay what am i gonna do when i grow up you know yeah yeah and then after that what am i gonna do when i grow up you know i and i so i'm studying at the moment i'm studying to do um financial advisor exams i do not want to be a financial advisor right but i think ro1 and all that are you doing the cii i'm doing the libf one.

16:23I know, right? But I was like, I think this is, you know, I have been someone who've been in debt, how to get out of debt. The first thing I'd always say is invest in yourself. And you never, ever know what could come of the things that you do. You didn't know when you started that first on screen, you probably had a dream of where that might've gone. Someone had said to me 15 years ago before I became a financial journalist, by the way, you'll be a multi award-winning financial journalist you know sat here at a table with a couple of lads talking about finance I would have been like yeah we're in a laugh I think we kind of box ourselves in and forget the potential of what we could achieve if we don't just try yeah yeah I didn't know like in my 20s up to my eyeballs in debt basically homeless that all of that would lead me to here and give me the kind of perspective and humility that I need to to speak to people how do you find that experience because I've been sort of reflecting on that time where I was effectively you know sports journalist with a dodgy back couch surfing I'm wondering how that's affected me now towards the way I view my career and life and fear around money yeah do you have like a scarcity mindset at all or do you think it's going to disappear or are you no I would like to have that in some regard I would like to think that I'm like it's all going to go so I'm going to shovel shovel shovel i mean i have shovel shovel shoveled into a pension but that's probably more to do with the fact that i have a dodgy back and i want to make sure that you know in my latter years i may need a bit of extra support and so that was my main focus but i don't i have it i have a real lift for the moment you know try and enjoy my life which goes back to the sorry dog mom thing right i i saved an outrageous amount of my which in itself is a percent of everything i bring in is tucked away which is you know people talk about problems with money and yes overspending is a problem with money but i also think underspending i have a problem with money is a problem as well there's a happy balance there but if i was to look at my life now and And again, this is my argument with renting and buying and whatever.

18:34Yes, 40 is quite late to buy a house. Not if you're living in London and not in 2025. That's true. I have lived all around the country. Maybe 15 years ago. But like, yeah, today, I don't think a lot of my friends, I haven't bought lots of my friends. Damo just bought and he's a big dog and he's just bought. And if you're alone, it's even harder. And I'm hearing stories from young people saying, oh, but I have to get in a partnership and buy a house. Otherwise, I'll never get on the property, see you later. And I'm thinking, you're 27 years old and you're hitching your wagon to someone because you want to buy a property.

19:07Whoa, the red flags. I want to press that button. Why are you doing that? You need to thank you. You do not have to do that right now. Like, I think about the good and the bad, right? I've spent like four months in Spain. You know, renting can afford me to do that. I can just leave. I've had to escape bad relationships. bam, I can just go and have to worry about mortgages and what's going to happen in selling the house, et cetera. I've lived in places that central London that I wouldn't have ever been able to afford to buy and had an absolutely phenomenal time. I've moved around the country to work at the BBC all over the country.

19:47I've been able to do things because I've rented that I wouldn't be able to do if I'd have bought. And I hate this idea that you have to, again, you have to do something one way. No, you absolutely don't. Okay, people say, you know, okay, I've been paying off someone else's mortgage. Yes, and I do think the rental market in the UK needs to be fixed. It's ridiculous how much people are paying in rent. That old argument of, oh, yeah, you rent to save money to get a deposit. Rent's more expensive than paying your mortgage right now. And that, I think, is a shame. And we really, as a country, need to look at the way that renting works in the UK.

20:22However, I would urge anyone, I didn't start a business till I was 35. I didn't earn over 20 ,000 until I was 30. I had nothing in my£1 ,500 in my pension when I was 31. It's not too late. And look at the amortisation of a mortgage. The first few years you pay in just interest anyway. Oh yeah. So this idea that - My first mortgage statement was like, Yeah, you're like, oh, only 10 has come off the balance, but I paid a grand or whatever. And yeah, and there's still an exchange. It's better when you're retired to own a home because you don't want that outlay when you're not producing an income.

20:59But the thing that people forget when they rent is you do get something for the rent. You get a house, like you say, and people don't go, oh, I'm renting a phone off someone else when it's on a contract. They look at the utility of the thing. And like you said, there's loads of utility to renting, flexibility. Don't have to worry about if something breaks or if you need to leave quickly or think about the job that you could go for. The wealthiest people I know rent because they don't want to have to fix the pool or, you know, they don't. Because it's like the tiling costs 50 grand and if they crack a tile, they're like, oh God, no, I've got to source it from Italy.

21:29They don't, you know, so. You've got a hot tub. Oh, nice. Playing with the house. Yeah. You ready to use a second-hand hot tub? Just jump right into that. Do you know what? A bit crusty. I've got to dump all that water. Four and a half, you've no idea how much chlorine is in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why did they leave it behind? Do you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, that one's written off. Trust me, these things are massive. There's absolutely no way you could get this out of the house. Last time we recorded, Tomei, and you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate?

21:58They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes. And yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much, yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp. It's a tech platform that makes self-assessment simple. Whether you're self-employed like me, a freelancer, or a director like Demo, big dog. Instead of sending endless emails, bills, and spreadsheets to your accountant, you just connect your bank, answer a few questions that are only relevant to you, and your tax return can be ready in as little as 15 minutes.

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23:11I mean, I could say. I've done a few deals. A bill, a bill. What would your compliance team say about you? They would say that I am always nagging them and that essentially I just have beef with compliance. I love the team. Compliance slows down all my deals because every time I get to the finish line, they've got to check documents, KYC, GDPR, and it's just a nightmare. It slows the deal down by like two, three weeks. It's always on both sides as well, isn't it? Sometimes it can be blocked on the other side. Well, that's where today's sponsor can help. Indeed. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get secure and compliant fast.

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24:19That's Vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. I want to go back to that moment that you're in debt. You said that you were in debt because of the medical treatments or was it more than that? so why was I in debt one I was at the time that it happened I was sort of mid-20s I was on about 18 ,000 as sports journalist sports broadcaster which is actually at the time wasn't was standard I think about it now I think oh I was living in the northeast which helped um and then about I was out of work or on and off for about a year so I didn't have any income I had absolutely no idea what to do and I remember I went to Citizens Advice and I say this with love and respect for Citizens Advice and what they do and I really hope the guy was joking but he said have you thought about having kids because you're more likely to get help and I thought not with a bad back no so that was my experience I tried I thought but I tried to sort of navigate the benefit system and it was so horrendous like my hats off to anyone who can work it out it was horrible that I didn't bother so I was too proud to ask anyone for help because I'm you know look I was I went to private school.

25:52I was fairly sensible. Unfortunately, my parents were going through a very, very, very bitter breakup at the time. So I didn't want to sort of like burden them. I wasn't speaking to my dad. Oh, we've really got deep, haven't we? Get on the couch. So yeah, I had no one to sort of talk to about it. So I did what most normal people do, probably badly, use my credit card uh and this was the credit card which careful kids don't do what auntie georgie did here uh when i went to university first year freshers uh if you signed up to a credit card you got a free football which i did of course um no idea where the football went uh free football yeah that's crazy and so yeah that debt on that credit card hung around a lot longer than that football i'd tell you um i know i know it's shameful i did the same thing in freshers week they stock loads of credit card things through the door and I'm like I don't have a credit card let me get one and then I just ran it up but things I never used I had never used it yeah I didn't you just use it for the debt it was just when when it I needed and I had the debt to sort of live life and pay so that was like a few years later and I remember finally getting to the stage I was in Manchester finally getting to the stage where I paid it off because it wasn't that that big at the time and I was on the phone to the credit card company and they said, are you sure?

27:13Are you sure? It might just be good for you to have it just as emergencies. And so bearing in mind, I was like, I don't know how old I was, whatever, late 20s. And I had just needed it. I said, all right, then fine. And I kept it. And then the debt just went like that. So yeah, it was a mixture of pride. ignorance um lack of knowledge exactly um and just not getting paid was there a turning point that helped you kind of change how did you get out of it like was there a turning point that made you say okay i need to tackle this debt there were a couple one i started dating a guy who actually worked for a bank um who made it more accessible for me to talk about and find out about money stuff and he looked at it and was like why have you got this kind of debt um and then it was it was that course that I did and I owe the NHS and and don't get me wrong I can see all its faults but I owe them so much for that course that utterly turned my life around um and from that And this to me, and this is not an argument like NHS and all this sort of thing, but it shows the benefit of if you invest in someone and support someone to get out of a difficult situation, which is what our benefit system should be, they will pay you back tenfold.

28:48And I did. And I have. And I'll continue to do so. And I'm proud to have done so. But yeah, without that support, without that kind of thrust I needed and the confidence to go out there and just start to rebuild my life. Because it was, I started from the absolute bottom. Bearing in mind I was, you know, I was a pretty decent sports player when I was little. And I went out while I was on this course into the park. And it was just a bunch of people, like some very strange people. and we just threw a tennis ball in the park and it was the most wonderful feeling and it's those little steps and from that i'm talking of little steps another thing that kind of gave me the confidence was i had do you remember in the olden days 10 years ago they had these like ceramic pots remember when we had money you know coins and stuff right and um i had a tin can like those ones right yeah smash them or you absolutely and i exactly and i had got this little thing it was quite big and I was putting stuff in it I accidentally smashed the thing which was fine but I calculated that was about 350 quid and I thought that was a lot easier than I thought and it's something so small but it's like actually it's that first literal first kind of step to recovery I think we're so keen to have these quick fix solutions and we desperately go around on TikTok and money and whatever.

30:11And it's like, actually, really sorry to say this, if you want to get out of debt, it's hard. It's going to take effort. If you want to get your back better, you're going to have to put the effort in. It's no quick fix unless you have a relative that dies. Let's hope that doesn't happen. And they leave you an inheritance or you win the lottery and look, you know, chances of winning the lottery are not very big. So look, chances are you're going to have to do it yourself. So start small and really invest in yourself, I would say. You had a debt, similar debt, not similar, but yeah, you had a 20, 30K of debt.

30:49Yeah. Did anything make you like face up to it or was that a turning point for you? Where did you get into that sort of debt? I was, I graduated university and I had a bit of debt from that, like overdrafts and stuff, usual. And then I was working, like selling hotels, well I was selling bankrupt hotels this was this was like 2010 so it was post-financial crisis so it was like repossessions of buildings and I met a girl and she basically told me that she was going to inherit a load of money and that she was going to be a millionaire and that I should quit my job and just live with her so I was like naive told you I'm pretty naive so I I did I quit my job and I just sat around for a year waiting for this to happen and then it didn't and I got straddled with like all of the the rent the bills the council tax she just lied basically because she thought it would impress me um so yeah that that realization of like this is not coming I've got like 30 grand 40 grand whatever of debt she'd also borrowed money off some of my friends who came forward and were like oh she borrowed seven and a half grand off me and I was like okay I'll pay that back as well I remember speaking to my uncle and he was like there's no money Damien like it's never coming you need to you need to get a job and it was like someone sucked the air out the room you know it was like I knew that but it became very real.

32:07There is no cure. Yeah. Sometimes you need someone to spell it out. Yeah exactly and then it's like okay life starts now it's like you're born in that moment and then I went to I had to go get a job and luckily where I lived in Manchester there was like the biggest debt management company in the country so I went in there and it was just kind of like salesy it's at the time debt management was an unregulated industry and you're basically just offering debt management plans ivas these kind of things and it was like i just became like the best salesman in that whole place because i was in more debt than anyone i spoke to so i empathize with them like you think your situation's bad and they were they just i just worked you know 15 hour days i so i was working there 12 hours a day got a job washing pots at pizza express saturday sunday as well so i was a delivery job as well yeah i delivered takeaways so i would like stop working there on a friday go deliver takeaways or wash pots there till close and deliver pizzas from midnight till four and then I was having a sun and I think there was a catalyst of events that were like that made me get serious and then I've always been naturally okay academically but never tried hard because there was never a carrot there so I did well at school and then as soon as I got to uni I got found out because I just got pissed three times a week right so I kind of had this like I didn't know what I was good at And then once you put me in a sales room, I just destroyed every record there.

33:31And I was like, okay, I can outwork anyone and I'm pretty good at chatting. And that momentum has just carried me from there until here, basically. So really, the debt was amazing for me. It just cost me eight years to pay it all off and dig out of that hole. It's a big lesson to learn. It's like the most valuable lesson I've ever learned, but I would never want my son to go through that. But then I'm also like... It made you who you were. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Which again goes back to this sort of linear path of what people tell us our life should be. And I think that's where there's such a space for what you do.