Labour MP: Why this Budget must tax the rich

25:12That's 22 ,000 people. That's not a lot of people. You couldn't even fill a football ground with that. You could not. Not Premier League ground. Not even in Birmingham. Definitely not a man to say. Definitely not a man to say. But you know, that would raise you billions of pounds if you did that. And, you know, the argument I say in the book is, look, rather than just put the proceeds of wealth taxes into general government spending, let's put it into something that looks and feels a little bit like the National Trust. Because people are genuinely worried that governments waste money. We've got to recognise that that is a fear that people have.

25:49But if you put the proceeds of those kind of wealth taxes into something like the National Trust or like a sovereign wealth fund, you would quite quickly be able to build up a fund of about 200 billion. That would take you about four or five years. And 200 billion is the kind of magic number in a way for me because that would allow you to pay a dividend, a one-off dividend every year of£10 ,000 to every 25-year-old in the country. £10 ,000 is the average shortfall on a deposit to buy a house. So maybe this is the wrong idea, but it's a provocation. And if it's the wrong idea, my challenge to people is, okay, fine.

26:27You tell me a better idea for how we're going to help young people get a foot on the housing ladder. Because I know that we've got to build more houses, but you can't fix this problem simply by building more houses. Because people will buy them up and house prices will still continue to rise. You've got to actually fix people's lack of money to put down a deposit to buy a house. You've got to have longer mortgages and lower fixed-term interest rates. All of that's true. But you've got to fix the deposit problem. Bank of England says the lack of a deposit is the biggest barrier to young people getting on a housing ladder.

26:57And there is a choice for us. We could say to people who have done super well over the last 10 to 15 years to pay a little bit more tax, perhaps as a one-off on their fortunes, and use that money to help young people get a stake in society. And let's not forget why the top have done so well in the last 10 to 15 years. We've put a trillion pounds of quantitative easing into the monetary system. That's held interest rates down by, on average, about 1%. If you were lucky enough to own assets during that time, you've seen your fortunes boom. You call it alchemy, the closest thing to alchemy. It's the closest thing to alchemy.

27:33And so let's call it a windfall tax. It's a trillion pounds of money backed by British taxpayers. but the prizes from that investment has gone to a very narrow section of society in particular the 22 000 people with the biggest fortunes um how much money do you think 22 the tax of 22 000 at one percent would raise it raises you somewhere between three and five billion a year yeah how would you get to 200 billion off three to five so you do a couple of things you put together um a lot of the state assets that we already own so things like the crown estate you know the crown State owns things like the riverbeds and the seabeds out to the 12-mile limit.

28:12Very valuable now that we're building wind farms on them. There's a lot of other assets that the government has got. You could probably get about 80 billion, 60 to 80 billion quid's worth of assets put together. You would then, I think, do three or four different kind of taxes, so a one-off wealth tax, equalising capital gains tax and income tax, like Nigel Lawson. Ask people to pay national insurance contributions on investment income, which they don't do at at the moment, close a few of the loopholes in inheritance tax. Altogether, that raises you somewhere between about 15 and 20 billion a year.

28:45If you then add that to the state assets that we can already put together, and you deliver a return of about six to 8 % a year, which is the average return of a sovereign wealth fund, by the time you're getting to year five, you're getting, I think it's about 180 billion you're kind of getting to. So you can, the point is you can see a pathway to this it's not impossible it's not magic uh and the question is well look if that's not the answer well then what is yeah i've always you know i've advocated for um deposits into into junior sips at birth for kids to you know benefit from compounding similar kind of thing it's like a sovereign wealth from compounding yeah yeah and then you you remove the pressure maybe to save as much for pensions and then people can use that money for other things because it's we're leveraging time right and we look at i look at like what we did with north sea oil and we reduce taxes and then is it norway that just have now the biggest sovereign wealth fund if we if we hadn't just pissed away the proceeds in all seed oil we would have a sovereign wealth fund worth half a trillion pounds today yeah when when you say closed loopholes and inheritance are you talking about for the super wealthy who are finding ways around it because i know the average person The most hated tax.

29:54Indeed. Yeah, we'd like, yeah, no one likes inheritance tax. And I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, you know, if you put your fortunes into farmland and you transfer your farmland to your children, or indeed in business investments. The Gravesville estate. For example, you can avoid a lot of those taxes. You can put the money into an offshore pension pot and avoid inheritance taxes. And so, do you remember the big debate about whether the king would pay inheritance tax when the late queen died? The irony is that if the king had decided to pay inheritance tax, he would be the exception, not the rule.

30:29Because the payment of inheritance tax collapses after about two million. And so if you can afford the best lawyers and best financial advisors, it's free. So it's really unfair. Yeah, it's unfair. My friend's mum passed away and he got left the house, but then he can't afford to pay the inheritance tax. So he had to sell the house and move out. So whereas if he was a multimillionaire, he'd find ways around it. So it feels like it hits the average person more than... And this is part of an argument about what I call restoring fairness to the tax system. So not a lot of people have read Rishi Sunak's tax return.

31:01It doesn't take long because he only publishes a page of it, which is the summary. But, you know, Mr. Sunak's a successful guy. He earned two million quid last year, or in the last tax year that he declared. Rate of tax he paid on that? 23%. I paid more tax than that. I bet you both paid more tax than that. That's crazy. And so my point is, well, look, how can that be right? And if that radical old socialist Nigel Lawson had equal rates of tax on capital gains and income, is it so left-wing to propose we go back to that? Not at all. What do you think of people then that say, it doesn't matter how rich people get, because we should incentivise people to get rich, what we should instead do is just focus on everyone having a basic level of, you know, income and protection as such.

31:44So rather than going, no, no, you're too rich now. so look i mean i there is a book knocking around at the moment which is quite intriguing called uh limitarianism which says that you know there should be an upper ceiling on how rich people can be and i and i don't believe in that because i do think um you should have the lure of super returns to encourage people to innovate this was an argument joseph schumperde made in the 1930s outliers deliver the returns right and like you need a jackass to go out and to disrupt things but equally I also believe that those with the broadest shoulders should carry the biggest burden.

32:21And I had this discussion actually with Rishi Sunak at Christmas at the liaison committee and I said, so do you think it's fair that you should be paying 23 % tax? And he kind of said, well, it's the regime that Gordon Brown introduced. And the questioning then moved on. Yeah, so I didn't get the chance to say, I know, but that was before you put a trillion pounds worth of quantity of easing into the monetary system. So some things have changed since 2010. So I think that this is an argument that people are up for. And I think there is political support for asking those who have done really well, because of low interest rates over the last 10 years, to pay a little bit more.

33:01But you set out in your book that wealth makes people change on a chemical level. It does. I was surprised about that. They change as humans. The poorest people in society are the most generous. And so it's almost like you can't expect the rich to come round to this because... To go willingly. It's almost evolutionary. You tell, I mean... No, I mean, so this is research that's come from University of Berkeley in California. And I was so gobsmacked when I read it that I spent a bit of time talking to some of the academics who had researched it. But basically, the research shows that those who have become really successful, the brain chemistry does change a little bit and it encourages more selfish rather than altruistic behavior.

33:48And people play, the favorite way to test this is called the loaded monopoly game. So people set up a game in Monopoly and they basically skew the rules so that some people are able to really do well by kind of cheating. And what they observe is that their behaviour begins to change. They get bigger. They get bigger, they expand, they sort of, you know, sort of... Pop up their chest. Steal all the twirl bites. You know, it's really quite interesting. And that's why things like Patriotic Millionaires are sort of so interesting, because this is a lobby group of people who are very, very successful and who are leading the argument that those who have done really well should pay a bit more tax.

34:27So politically, this is obviously going to be really difficult. But again, I come back to the point, and this is the point I make to very successful people. Look, if we don't fix wealth inequality now, what the hell do you think is going to happen to the country that you're trading in over the next 10 to 15 years? It's going to become angrier, harder to govern, and that is going to be bad for business. So even out of your own kind of self-interest, if you want to be trading in this country in a harmonious society where people get on with each other and buy the stuff you're making, then we've got to fix this problem.

34:59You discussed this sovereign fund or commonwealth fund. Yeah. Who would run it in your idea? So government have to set it up, and Labour is legislating for a national wealth fund, which is currently too small in my view, and they haven't said anything about where the dividends would go. So I think it should be an independent fund. It should be something that is obviously under some kind of treasury guidance because it's on our books. It will be a public asset, so we've got to account for it but it should be independent of government and it should be set up with the aim of paying dividends out to young people in a probably in a match for their savings or as a tax break there was an argument that a friend of mine david willits was conservative made a few years ago which is that you would give the money to as cash to people i did some polling on that and it proved quite unpopular but if you if you give that money to people as a as a match for their savings or as a tax break, it goes from very unpopular to very popular.

36:01So I think we've got to be smart about how we get the public support for this, not least because we want this to be something sustainable over a long, long period of time. I mean, this should be something that becomes part of the constitution. Something to be proud of, like an NHS or like, you know, part of a national identity thing. Because I think in Norway, there was a populist movement that emerged where they basically said, we've got like a trillion quid in. let's let's let's spend it yeah and the way they tackled that was instead of saying it was a wealth fund they said it was the like the nation's pension and then people were like oh no you don't blow the pension you can't do that because they were like look we could build all these bridges and trains and so they they had to create national pride behind the movement that's exactly right and i said there was a similar example in sweden um where they did where the swedes did end up actually dissolving it i think in the uh in the 1980s so you have genuinely got to make it independent it's definitely got to be like as you say that's a really good phrase like like the nhs it's got to be something that is there for the long term for the future and it's got to be one of the ways in which we help the younger generation get on and this is you know i notice this a lot now talking to um talking to pensioners that they do know that their grandkids are in a real bind and they do want to try and do something to help them but they're just not quite sure how how would you um go about giving it to young people.

37:20How do you define young people? We're young. Yeah, I'm still a spring chicken. I'm 36. You're both 24, right? I'm 24 for this purpose. Yeah, I am now. But on that point, we graduated uni in the financial crisis. We've seen nothing but collapses. I mean, I think people look at us now and go, oh, well, you're okay. But we're not. People in our age group are definitely not well off, you know, and they don't own homes. And I think people say young and you have a risk of cutting out a whole generation of millennials that then get to retirement and a scotland. Yeah, and this is a pickle, right? So the argument in the book, argument for discussion, is let's start with 25-year-olds.

37:56But that would have to be a national debate. You'd have to say, right, we're setting this thing up for the first time. Who should be in the first cohort? The second thing, though, that we have to do is we do have to make sure that everyone's got a bank account. So there are a quarter of people in our country who have net savings of less than£100, right? That is a lot of people with very little. So some people have said, look let's have a universal basic income let's just give 10 to 11 grand to everybody every year and I looked at this and it's just not affordable so that's what took me to this idea of universal basic capital there is a system that has just been tested which basically opens automatically for you a bit like your auto enrollment pension it auto enrolls you into a bank account and it takes you know three quid off a month and they've run this for four years now and it's proved phenomenally successful.

38:45So over four years, people keep their bank accounts open, something like 95 % of them keep their bank accounts open. They have built savings up of over three to 400 pounds. That is what I suggest is the kind of the foundation on which we build. We then have to do the third thing, which is to look at all of the different tax breaks for savings, because at the moment, they benefit those who have got a lot, and they don't help those who have nothing. So there's about 2 billion quid's worth of tax incentives for ISAs, for example. Most of that money goes to people with over£100 ,000. If you've got very little and you're trying to get a savings match on something that you're squirrelling away, there's almost no reward for you at the moment.

39:26So if you've got universal bank accounts, a dividend coming from a national wealth fund, and you've got a progressive tax system, then I'm not saying that's a magic bullet it's not going to solve everything but at least you've got a system on which the country can begin building the wealth of those who have nothing so there's 1.8 trillion pounds in the uk sat in cash savings which is just rotting and 300 300 billion is in cash isis and if you look at the distribution of cash isis or people who only use cash isis it's predominantly the poorest so they they basically don't know they've got a personal savings allowance they take their money and they bang it in a cash isa.

40:04Don't you think that a better thing to do would be to educate people on the power of the stock market and get them to take cash savings and move them into the equities portion? I do. And I think if we had a system where, I don't know, say at the age of 18 or when somebody started work, if they didn't have a bank account, one was open for them automatically, that would be the trigger for a revolution in financial education at school. It should be part of your PGSE studies. Even bigger than that. It's life. You know, we spend 80 % of our day working to get money, and then most people have no idea what to do with it, and they just blow it all.

40:42We don't have any financial education at school. It should be like maths and English are compulsory up to GCSE. I think it is on certain curriculums, but only 47 % of kids actually receive the education, and most of them don't remember receiving it. You know these figures better than me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they did just my job. If you survey teachers as well, they basically say, I don't feel comfortable teaching it because no one's ever taught me. You know, history teachers learn the curriculum. They're kind of like, I don't really get this. That is really interesting. I did do a couple of surveys of teachers about the future of work a few years ago.

41:16And one of the questions was, what do you think is missing from the curriculum that we ought to be teaching kids about? And actually, financial literacy topped the table. Yeah, there is resources. Martin Lewis created a resource. But even he was told, you've got to pay for it, which is a joke, right? This guy's like, I'll put something in the government. And the government will be like, yeah, you pay for it, though. So we can agree that education needs to improve. I do also think that stuff can fall on deaf ears. You know, you tell a kid at 14, say for retirement, they'll be like, I'm going to live forever.

41:43So I don't need to think about that. But yeah, let's get back to the... But peer effects are important, right? And so I think if you've got a bank account that you know as a young person, there is going to be either you open your own bank account or a bank account is going to be open for you. this is coming um there is going to be state aid available to help you save if you do the right thing um and you've then coupled that with a program of education i think in a funny way there are peer effects that we can harness now that weren't necessarily available you know when i was a school you know there are some good things that you can use social media for and i think this is potentially one of them oh i mean there's plenty of good i mean a million people a month watch my content.

42:25So there's a lot of influence there. And I think also as well, the message is getting through to younger generations that it's on them. I think, you know, older generations could kind of accidentally stumble into a relatively good retirement through defined benefit pensions and things. That's not available. And I do think that millennials and Gen Zs and younger, they are more actively engaged in finance. The problem is they end up sometimes stumbling across bad influences. But I think the media focuses too much on the bad and not on the good. They make every Finfluencer out like they're shilling crypto when they're not.

42:56You know? It's not the case. That's their job, though. It's all sensationalism. So then I speak to politicians, and they're like, oh, so, you know, what is this ticky-tock, and are you talking about crypto? It's like, we still haven't brought them up to speed with the fact that it's so true. No, it's just modern media, right? And it's good. And people are learning, and they're seeking out this information, and they're empowering themselves. but anyway the point about empowering themselves is really important though because you know if you want to safeguard someone's power you've got to give them security and there isn't any security without wealth no so why then were there no wealth taxes from Rachel Reeves well we shall see in the budget

43:46I don't I don't but what I do know is that me and many others will be making that argument hard ahead of the budget. Because look, if we're all in it together, then we all need to be in it together, right? And there are some people, as I say, who have done supremely well over the last 10 to 15 years because of a trillion pounds worth of quantitative easing. And there is a very strong case that there ought to be a windfall tax on those fortunes. And if you do it in the right way, this is not money into the black hole of public spending. This could be money investing into the next generation. Political appetite for tax on corporations exists because, you know, we have windfall tax on energy companies.

44:23But then when it's individuals, people kind of, there's always a debate about, is that the right thing to do? It goes back to something you said earlier, which is, you know, we worry about damaging the incentives to work hard and succeed. And we should be worried about those things. So you have got to get the balance right. But at the same time, we've got to recognise that there has just been a mother of all windfalls for a very lucky small number of people. and now in difficult times, we need to ask them to put their hand in the pocket. Can I flip this on the head of someone? So I pay a lot of tax.

44:54Not as much as these people, but I know that the rich was... Not as little as Rishi Tino. Exactly. Yeah, but he would probably still say 20 % of 2 million is a lot of money. And, you know, to the people out there that pay low marginal tax rates, but pay millions in tax, they might go, this country is falling apart. Why should I put more into the system when nothing works? The public services are crumbling. You know, what would you say to those people? How do you think we're going to get out of this hole? I mean, you know, there isn't a magic wand in this life, you know, and if we are going to fix this country and it is broken, it's not free.

45:24We're going to need to do things differently. We're going to have to be more efficient. We're going to have to be more productive. But it's going to take more investment, too. You know, the reason that our country is in a cyclical and structural decline right now is not least because we have such low levels of investment. And, you know, this is something that the Tories have made a mantra of. So, you know, they've had a demand side strategy since 2010, cut taxes and the investment will bounce back. And guess what? The investment has never bounced back. And the argument is highest ever it's ever been.

45:54The tax burden is the highest that it's ever been, not least because we're having to pay such very high levels of debt interest, well over 100 billion. But, you know, we have got to raise the public investment rate. It's one of the lowest in the G7. We've got to start investing in the kind of capital that makes the country more efficient. That's true in the NHS, it's true in the railways, it's true in technology. And if you do it in the right way, public investment can crowd in private investment. Can we talk about the waste point then? Because if we use HS2 as an example, this would be a big infrastructure project that promises all of the things that you talk about.

46:30But actually, it was just a massive waste of money, wasn't it, in the end? Even if it was a good idea or a bad idea, let's leave that. Let's stand by the fact that we spent billions and did nothing. We spent far too much. So actually, I was the chief secretary that signed off High Speed 2 back in 2009 with Andrew Adonis. And then it was at about 30 billion. And it's now... 100 billion was the... An awful lot more. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, High Speed 2 kind of goes under my constituency. I'm a big supporter of High Speed 2 because it's going to revolutionize the wealth and welfare of East Birmingham.

46:57But when you go down in these tunnels, you really understand why it's so expensive. I mean, they basically decided to build the biggest underground system in the world. I mean, I think you're outside in fresh air on high speed too for about 15, 16 minutes. The rest of it is in a tunnel. And the way they're building these tunnels is like they're kind of purifying the earth that kind of comes out of it. These are platinum plated environmental standards and perhaps that's a good thing. But did we need to put a tunnel under the Chilterns? You know, there was some big kind of political decisions that were taken that radically increased the cost.

47:36And I just don't know how the Chancellor of the Checker at the time just sort of said, I don't know, just spend what you like. You know, they didn't kind of say, no, no, this is the cap and you can't spend more than that. You need to tell us how to build a railway for this much money. Not just wave on whatever new spending request came in. They just kind of lost control of it. Because, you know, as a citizen of the world, you go to other places and you go somewhere like China and you see them build a bridge in a week, basically. And then you come to England and it's like we've been debating in this bloody railway for a decade and no one's done anything or silver side crossing yeah what is going on germany have got their trains running efficiently like to the second yeah it's the same motorways trains all of them on point so why are we so incapable of of delivering these infrastructure projects so we are uh you know so the so the benign answer to this is that we love property rights um and the challenge therefore is that we've then created this slightly bonkers planning system that means that you've got to debate people's property rights ad nauseam.

48:37And so the planning system is just sort of so crazy. I mean, there was one, I think it's the Thames Crossing that they're proposing. It's just like thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of planning applications that have to be gone through. And the only people who make real money out of that are the lawyers. I'm not anti-lawyer, but I'm just saying. Keir Starber was, wasn't he? Keir Starber was a lawyer. Yeah, yeah. He was a rights lawyer, invisibly. Yeah, well, yeah. Not planning or not. No, I mean, they've said they want to simplify planning, don't they? Yeah, and there is an active parliament that's going to come to help us do that.

49:08Do you think we can simplify these systems that are just so convoluted and complex? I don't think we can. Planning, tax? We haven't got a choice. I mean, you know, the money is so tight right now. If we don't sort this out, if we don't simplify this, we're going to be having this kind of conversation in 10 years' time. And we just haven't got that time to waste. The UK tax legislation is something like 10 times bigger than the complete works of Shakespeare. Right. Yeah. And I think the Hong Kong one is 257 pages, whereas ours is 10 ,000. Yeah. And who is ripping that book up? Yeah. Where are we going to start?

49:40So there was a good idea that George Osborne had, which was the Office of Tax Simplification. And I don't quite know why it just didn't deliver, but it didn't. They found out it was too complicated. I think the tax system is now more complicated than it was in 2010. And one of the reasons for that is that obviously people keep adding exemptions and sort of different schemes to do this and that. And you have to keep plugging the new loopholes that emerge as clever people find ways around the rules. But you're right. I mean, the tax system has got to be simpler. And, you know, look, what are we trying to do here?

50:06We are trying to create. We want it to be. We want Britain to be one of the best places to invest. We want Britain to be one of the best places to be an innovator, an entrepreneur, an inventor. But we've got to kind of couple that, frankly, with a strategy to get us out of the hole we're in at the moment. and crucially make sure that we're building wealth for the next generation yeah yeah let's see because yeah you know i'm an innovator i'm an entrepreneur i employ 12 people i i run a media group of companies from my spare bedroom that gets millions of views a month yeah but i have poor internet and i can't get to london quickly you know so it feels that the open reach have said that we'll get internet by 2026 i'm why is that so i mean i went to an i went to a log cabin in Iceland on a glacier and I had faster internet than I do in Southport.

50:53So I approached this with a big dollop of scepticism because I think from the North we get promised a lot of things that never happened. And the truth is that if you kind of said to leaders in the North, right, this is what your budget is, you now decide how you're going to spend it. You would get problems like that fixed 10 times faster. I mean, Burnham fought for a decade just to get the buses. Yeah. How many times did he have to go to court? How much did the lawyers cost? and instantly better just to run a bus network yeah yeah yeah yeah mad it is mad well i'm glad you agree because it feels like sometimes this is experience that is born of being a cabinet minister so you know if there's one thing that being a cabinet minister teaches you is that departments always defend their turf they really are not keen on collaborating with others and they tend to think that they know best but it's it's mad when when the public have voted you, I say you as your party, into power that you then don't have the power.

51:47You know, it's like they've given you, they say you run the country and then you're like, oh, we can't run the country because these guys actually run it. No, but I think where we need to be is actually giving that power away. We need to be devolving power. I think Andy Burnham and Richard Parker in the West Midlands can make better decisions about their regions than civil servants can in Westminster and what? And crucially, they can put different budgets together in a way that is much, much harder to do in Westminster and Whitehall. So, and just, I mean, my final point on this, I'm mildly obsessed about this.

52:19If you think about the world that we live in today, right, it's quite complicated. Conflict in Russia, rise of China, need to rearm, quite big decisions, climate crisis. We need Westminster and Whitehall focused on tackling global issues. And that means that they haven't got the bandwidth to worry about the unit cost of apprenticeships in Southport, frankly. They need to just figure out what they need to focus on and devolve power and resource over everything else to people who are on the front line. Seems common sense, doesn't it? I like to think so. My uncle was in the army and he was quite senior and he was all about logistics.

52:57So he would set up, you know, like a camp bastion or whatever. So big projects, multi-billions. And I said to him, would you control it all centrally? He's like, it's mental. You couldn't do it. You couldn't run a project. You couldn't tell the truck driver where to park. You just got to trust that they can make a good decision in a day. And it's like the country is far more complicated than those projects. And we're running it from a central location. If you think about the economy of Manchester and the Northwest, it's bigger than some European countries. Why would you try and run it? You're very passionate about this.

53:28Do you feel that the Labour Party kind of shares your sentiment? Like what percentage of people are, obviously they should all read your book. They definitely should all read it. Yeah, definitely. But do you feel like a lot of people are on your side or it's an uphill battle? I do. It's a great question. And I do. And what is really interesting at the moment is this amazing new intake of Labour MPs that has come in. I mean, I've been around a long time. This is by far and away the smartest, most motivated, most disciplined group of new MPs I have. Torsten Bell, people like that. Torsten Bell, but I mean, you know, you could name hundreds of names.

54:06and is that because there's power on the table now maybe it's because there's power on the table i think also you've just had a lot of people who have said right i'm going to do something about this i'm going to roll my sleeves and get stuck in so um and these guys are going to change the world basically and the sooner we hand power over to them in a way it feels like that but i'm optimistic so i'm not sure if everyone feels the same as me but it does feel like we're kind of having a change a little bit in in in my business you have to be optimistic otherwise you quite quickly become depressed.

54:36Are you optimistic of the future of the UK? So I got asked this question the other day and actually I paused for thought because the truth is I'm really anxious. I'm determined but I am anxious because I'm now far more worried about what is at stake. I genuinely think if we do not fix this now, we are going to be in a terrible, terrible place over the next 10 years. So I do think this is a big moment in our country's history. And I think there's a big choice on the table.

55:15Please remember, this is not financial advice. Like we say a lot on the podcast, investments can fall and rise. In fact, it's pretty much a guarantee. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. So your money is at risk with investing and other fees may apply. As with everything financial, please do your own research. We really encourage that because no one cares more about your money than you. I'm Damo. I'm T. This was an episode of Making Money from our company Most. It was filmed and edited by the team at Flow Spire, Jack and Ben. It was produced by Ruth Edwards and brought together by Will Stollerman.

55:45What about Ruth and T. Phil's a dog? Yeah, shout out them two.