S1E1: First step to build wealth - what's your relationship with money?

0:28Right then T, time to record the Money Week advert. it summarises the biggest news stories that you need to know about, from pensions to investing, tax to the budget, or even what to do with the£1 coins while you're sat on the toilet. Along with their own analysis, they pulled together pieces from the top publications, like the FT, Economist and Wall Street Journal, to give you a balanced look at what's going on. If you want to give Money Week a try, you can get six issues in print and on the app for free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money. After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 on a quarterly subscription, exclusive to Making Money listeners, so that's moneyweek.com forward slash m-o-n-e-y there's a link in the description so i've got a question for you would you like to be wealthier i mean i'm sure we all would right but how do you get there what are the steps you should take money is such a emotionally complicated but also jargon filled area this is making money from Kindling Media.

1:24I'm Damo. I quit my job in finance to start a YouTube channel, teaching people about money, and now I'm starting this podcast with my mate T. This is my I don't know what's going on buzzer, so if there's any... He's going to be hitting that line. I would be smashing that whenever we're talking about anything technical. The premise is simple. Me and T will be joined most weeks by a guest, everyone from financial experts, the Bank of England, and every so often a celebrity, to talk about the big things, from mortgages, pensions, even getting pay rises, all the way down to the psychology of money.

1:56People have a mental block. They're like, oh no, that's got to be harder because it's finance. But just to do the nuts and bolts is no harder than learning how to drive a car. Get out of the mindset that you have to be rich to invest. Using their experience, we're going to lay out in front of you the steps you need to take to build long-term wealth. I honestly think it isn't that complicated, but because of a lack of education, many of us feel that money is just this intimidating topic. I know from first-hand experience how damaging that can be for your life. This is the financial education I wish I'd had.

2:28And really, the only thing standing between you and being that person who is good with money is what's between your ears. Yeah, and you, as, which I think your refreshing message is, you were one of those people, you know. Yeah. Now you work for the Financial Times, do you know what I mean? They might find out. So, where do we start? Look, I know it's not an easy thing to do, but we need to be honest about our relationship with money. So for episode one, we're speaking to the person you just heard making us laugh. The consumer editor at the Financial Times and author of the book, What They Don't Teach You About Money, Claire Barrett.

3:03We see this as the starting point and we think you're probably one of the most qualified people in the country to have that conversation. Wow. I mean, well, if we look at your resume, you're an editor at the FT, you're the host of the Money Clinic on the FT podcast and you're part of the Lorraine Saber squad. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that has been amazing. I've been doing that for about a year now. I'm on ITV Lorraine every Wednesday morning with Lorraine and everyone always asks, what's Lorraine really like? She's exactly the same. She's exactly the same. Maybe possibly slightly more Glaswegian off camera.

3:41But no, she's a really wonderful, caring person. And I think that that's why they want to do more finance because they know that everyone who is watching is just terrified by the cost of living crisis. People who've never been in trouble financially before all of a sudden are finding that they can't make ends meet. Well, I think you're always on the pulse. I always think your content's really timely. And as a YouTuber, I'm always looking for what's going on. And I find that you hit that quite well. And it's always reassuring content. Why do you think we have this issue with money? Because what you're essentially saying is there's a middle class here that have been dragged into the cost of living crisis and now they're struggling and they're unprepared for that.

4:23Why do you think we're unprepared? Well, they might not necessarily be middle class. It could be middle earners of any kind. And I think the classic thing is, is that you've had your salary every month. You haven't really had to formally budget or look at things. You've kind of had this sense of like, I know where I am. But I think if there was one silver overlining of the pandemic, although I kind of hesitate to call it that, is that it has forced everyone to look a lot more closely at their finances, where I think we've been very blasé in the past, not just about day-to-day spending, but the bigger questions like pensions.

4:59Everyone hears the word pensions and just goes, or goals, savings goals, achieving the milestones that you want to in the future, buying a property. Lots of people have just abandoned that because house prices have just got so out of control. But if we can get a positive out of this and say, okay, times are tough at the moment, but we're going to learn to focus more on our finance. We're going to give ourselves some time to educate ourselves about money using all of the amazing free, useful resources that there are to do that and get to a better place. When things do start to get better when the economy turns around please god it will then hopefully we'll carry that knowledge forward for the rest of our lives and it will really transform our future yeah so you know getting getting started as you say and it could be this a silver lining in the future where it's inspired a lot of people to address an issue that if if we kept going would would be bad in terms of pension savings and the statistics there so your book the the one thing that i love about it is you because i think we think of money and we think of it as like a math problem you you talk about it as a personality kind of problem not a problem but you talk about the human element which i think is that's the place to start isn't it it's kind of like what personality am i what is my relationship with money because we all have different relationships can i ask you what what's your money personality you know okay well i feel like i should issue a small a small caveat so i'm not the first person to come up with this idea of a financial personality.

6:36And I kind of hesitated a bit before putting it in the book, but I just find it such a useful way of being able to talk objectively about maybe bad habits or faults or things that we think we could improve without kind of turning the spotlight too far on ourselves. So of the different money personalities I list in the book, I do say it's a bit of a Venn diagram. I reckon I'm probably about 70 % goblin, which is the classic kind of hoarder of money. I grew up in a situation where, despite what my voice might sound like, there wasn't much money around when I was growing up. And when money came in, it had to be eeked out.

7:20It was not there to be wasted. And certainly when I started to earn my own money as a teenager, I realised quite quickly that it doesn't go very far. So I've definitely got that kind of hoarder mentality. In the past, that's led me to keep far too much money in cash savings. Everyone needs an emergency fund, but there's a limit to how much emergency cash you need. And I was very scared of taking risks with that money. So I was late to investing. Very much a fan of investing now and feel good about it because I know if I look at my cash flow, I look at the money I've got coming in every month, I look at how the investments are building up over time.

8:04I'm comfortable with the fact that the stock market can go up and down and that my cash isn't just being eaten away by inflation, which is what's happening to lots of goblins at the moment. That's quite an uncomfortable feeling because you think that you're not taking risks by keeping a lot of money in cash. But in fact, that in itself, if you've got too much cash, is a big risk. So that's one of the financial personalities. Controversially, one of the other financial personalities I feel is probably at least 20-25 % of my makeup is the Spendy Wendy. Now, I've spent ages trying to find a man's name that ended with Endy.

8:43It's pretty hard. Yeah. I guess I'm a Spendy Wendy you then. Spenny Spencer. So yeah, a Spenny Spencer. That's great. So the classic thing with somebody who is a spender is that their desire to own a particular object, it's not based on their needs. It's based on their wants. And crucially, when they get that object, whether it's trainers or a dress or a handbag, a new outfit, whatever the thing is, it doesn't really scratch that itch for them. They quickly move on to the next thing. It's all about the instance of spending the money, making themselves feel good, but that feeling is very fleeting.

9:34But the one lever that we can pull is getting in touch with emotionally. What is it that is driving us to spend? Is it a status thing? Is it a social anxiety thing? Is it that we're buying gifts and being a person who gives lavish gifts when that's something that's going to get us into debt? All kinds of reasons might be behind this. One of the personality traits of the goblin is that they do hold onto their money too tightly, as Vicky Raynell, who's the psychologist who I interviewed for the book says. And like for some people, as bizarre as it may sound, not being able to spend money is a problem.

10:15And you might think like, who are these people? But maybe they've had like a trauma in their life. Maybe they've been brought up in a household environment where they've been told, you know, it's wrong to spend money on yourself. You know, you shouldn't treat yourself to certain things. and it's really really difficult to break out of these habits and behaviors that have kind of been locked into our minds by our parents or the people who've brought us up especially a really shocking fact um it's in my book it's in lots of other books as well is that your attitude to money as an adult is largely set by the age of seven terrify years old it's absolutely and that's why um on money clinic podcast one of the things that we ask most of the guests is what's your earliest money memory because often asking someone that can tell you an awful lot about their attitude to finances now i mean i don't know about what's yours um watching watching my mum and dad like i used to sneak down stairs um and peer through the banisters and watch them because i knew that they were like up to something in in the kitchen and they had all of the kind of budget out and the money i mean this was like the early 80s so there was there was cash they were counting out cash into envelopes which is a method of budgeting that's like making a massive comeback cash stuffing they call it now um but it was just watching them carefully um dealing with their finances together and the fact it was all of my dad's money because he worked and my mum was a housewife as they were called back then um and so she was very much having an equal say even though it was the money that he had earned and where it was going.

11:57It was all being put into envelopes, so some for the holiday, some for this, some for the bills, and stuffed into the pages of this huge cookery book that she used to keep on the shelf. I knew where the money was. The question that everyone always asked me was like, did you ever steal any? The answer was no. I would never have been far too scared. She would have known, as my mum was on it, that something was missing. But maybe that memory has instilled into me that being careful with money is something that you've got to make time for, is something that you've got to share the burden with, with your partner, and also that you've got to feel comfortable making decisions equally.

12:42I mean, I earn a lot more money than my partner does. This is something that I discuss in the book. It's quite common. You know, you're never going to get two people who are exactly the same financially. one might come from a wealthier background and it changes over time exactly you know family circumstances can can change in a heartbeat so you've got to you know I've always strived to have that um you know in in my relationships whether with friends or with romantic partners that there is this degree of of honesty um and acceptance rather than a sort of show-offy status flashy i've got a better um car than you have that kind of stuff so and i think that really kind of informs how i'm grounded financially as a as a person sorry that was a very long answer what's your first money memory go on um my parents were always like you need to know the value of money so if i wanted to buy something from like a young age they're always like in the summer do work experience don't just play around so you can know the value of money or do chores like wash the dishes clean the car set the table slippery slope paying children for chores yeah but my first actual memory was probably going to like summer camp okay like you know go to like sports camp for like two or three weeks in the summer and obviously you get like uh lunch money every day so i think my dad the first day my dad gave me 20 pounds and i was like wait so i spent the whole thing and then the next day i was like dad i'm going back to camp i need some more money he's like i gave you 20 pounds yesterday what happened i'm like i spent always like well you don't get any more today and i was like but he's like you can take some food from home and obviously there's like ice cream there's sweets there's like burgers so i wanted all the stuff at the camp so then the whole like it was five pounds a day i was meant to have but i spent the whole 20 pounds on the first day so i learned after like every the next three days i had to take my own pack lunch i was really sad so i was like okay next week i'm gonna spit it out and that's kind of when i first learned about budgeting and then when i started getting paid i took none of that on board we're going out so yeah i'm still i'm still working on budgeting but that was my first memory what about you started how i meant to go and spend it all quickly and then worry about it later mine so i used to because my mom was a single parent so i would go to work with her when i was off school and they used to pay me to be quiet they call them sponsored silences a sponsored silence this is something about the age of three or four so they were basically paying me a quid to shut up for an hour because funnily enough i like to talk well yeah i don't know what i take from that but all i'm going to say is i now earn money from talking about money so look coming now yeah yeah it's better now sponsored silence yeah sponsored silence i remember sponsored silences from a young age it's pretty brutal really thinking about it you think people can change personalities oh god yes i feel like i definitely did because i used to have a credit card and then i went off in the deep end and then once i paid off i said never again i don't care if it's good for your credit rating i said i just can't be trusted with a credit card i don't want to be i have no overdraft no credit card and i i think from that day my life finance is drastically improved it's probably really good for you to have that bit trauma experience it was in university yeah and then after university i graduated never again will i have overdraft or credit card i decided so i think everyone makes mistakes sometimes we make the same mistake again and again and again you know in life with money because relationships whatever but the key thing is is that you learn from it and you move on and also you forgive yourself because there's so much shame attached to money.

16:04And that's one of the reasons we don't talk about it because we don't want to admit that we don't know. We don't want to admit that we're a bit kind of lacking in knowledge or that we've been a bit silly and we've spent too much money on stuff. We feel like idiots. So we just bottle it all up. And I think that's why it's so wonderful that, you know, you're on YouTube. There are places where people can go on social media, like on their own to learn about this without having to talk to someone, because that could be the precursor to a real life conversation where they say, you know, to their best friend or their mom, or maybe even a, you know, a counselor, you know what, I need some help because that's totally okay.

16:42And money is such a emotionally complicated, but also jargon filled area. We are intimidated and we do need a bit of a helping hand and there's nothing wrong with asking that. And it's absolutely possible for the leopard to change their spots. The spendy Wendy could become a spreadsheet slave, which is one of the other personalities, somebody who's really on it with budgeting. But equally, you don't want to be 100 % spreadsheet slave because then you wouldn't have any fun. You have to take and decide what to take and decide what to leave from each of these. When you're in a position where you feel like you can use your money as a tool and be rational and be effective and not let your emotions force you into making decisions where you're in a situation where you don't really know what you're doing.

17:32I can empathize with all of that so much because when I came out of uni, I would say that I was money focused. I think the money script would be that I was a worshiper of money. So I always thought that more money would make me happier, you know, that that was the answer. Those kinds of people have a tendency to then get into revolving credit card debt because they use money short term that they don't have so i then had to deal with this the motion of i see myself as someone who is driven towards money but i've actually got myself into a real mess and then i went over to a spreadsheet slave as a result of that which was probably a positive but then probably spent the next decade not to do it live in my life because i was so obsessed with never being like that again so it's like i swung the other way and It's only now that I'm finding balance.

18:18And I think you have to really be honest with yourself about your consumption of money and how you approach it and the things you've done wrong to be able to kind of hone in your own personality, if that makes sense. Yeah. You have to forgive yourself and think this is a lesson. I've learned it the hard way, but nevertheless, I've learned it. And some people said to me, why would you admit in this book that you make mistakes? Because I talk about a lot of mistakes. I went through a period of several months when I'd finished uni and I was looking for a job where I just stopped opening the post because the, you know, I had what I called a good job, a get out of debt job.

19:00So I was doing fairly soulless admin for a local council. I was trying to get a break in journalism, which is really, really hard. It doesn't matter how good or how talented you might be like there's only so many jobs getting an opening um a lot of the time you've got to work for free and i just you know i had to work i couldn't afford to just work for free somewhere as an intern for three months fortunately that seems to be changing um a lot more now but i was just in denial about the financial situation i was in and the easiest thing to do was just to not open the post and then i ended up getting a letter from a debt collector because i'd taken my off the ball.

19:41The full story is in the book. But I think it's really important for people who are perceived as money experts to admit that we have made mistakes because everyone makes mistakes. Social media is brilliant for democratising finance and getting good ideas out there and inspiring people, but it also makes us compare ourselves to others. And that can be really self-defeatist. Like, I'll never be as good with my money as he is, or I'll never have as cool trainers, or I must buy this in order to be more like that person who's clearly a success. So I think it's really important for us to admit that, yeah, we're human beings.

20:21We get stuff wrong, but we can also change and get stuff right. And it's not a bad thing to ask for help. I think it's a sign of strength rather than a sign of weakness to ask for help. One of the saddest statistics in the whole book is about the time when I spent a day listening in to calls and working with people in a debt advice centre. And I found out from that that people typically wait well over a year when they're in problem debt before they actually pick up the phone and say, I need help. They'll wait until the walls are at the door. There's like literally nowhere else to turn and I think, okay, it's bad enough now.

21:05I can phone those people because I don't have any other option. Whereas if they had phoned at the beginning of their debt problems, they could have had a much better set of options and avoided a year of just living with that mental health overload of stress from not knowing how they're going to claw their way out of a situation. And that is just something that's really chilling. I went for a debt service for five years and I I can tell you that happens at scale. Everyone only calls when they're, like you say, the wolves are at the door and they're really desperate. But seeking the advice early on means you can combat that and address the behaviors as well, like the spending behaviors and stuff.

21:43I really do love this message of like, own up to your failures, look at them and say like, this is what I've done wrong in the past. That's okay. We can fix that going forwards. You call it sorting your financial shit out, which I think is a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, Penguin or Ribbit, kind of like yeah sure that guy's you know the art of not giving an f he yeah he sold a lot of books with a swear word on didn't he yeah it wasn't on the cover so i think it's fine no there's an asterisk i think in the audiobook version they've put in a they've put in a bleep really um it's only an s bomb but it's not that well yeah but the thing is it is it is how i talk and it is what i say and like one of one of the things i think it is in the book one of the things that helped me sort out my finances was like having nice stationery.

22:29And that is a really girly thing to admit. But like, if you're going to be surrounded by numbers and bills, you know, having a Hello Kitty folder that you put it all in, you know, it might make you feel a bit more kind of like, oh, this is something I can do. And like, I don't have a Hello Kitty one anymore. I've got various different sort of coloured fruits and things. I've got like dragon fruit for my stocks and shares ISA. It's really, really silly. And, you know, and post-it notes and to-do lists and just, you know, any way that you can think of to organize yourself. Because like organization really is the big rule of this.

23:05So I've also got a really big box file with like hanging files in it for what I've labeled on the outside financial shit. did you believe and for each of my stepchildren i've got a little file for them like kelly's financial shit jack's financial shit gabriel's financial yeah he's got two month old financial shit yeah i know and the thing is the financial shit it kind of accumulates um throughout your life like the older you get but there could be um savings um accounts documents tax records all of these things that you don't want to lose track of and I think a lot of people have got like a lot of bits of paper floating around their house or in this age of email a lot of pdfs that have never been downloaded they don't have like a system for going through things and I'm a big believer in trying to stay on top of the of the paperwork having a list of financial shit to sort and just kind of taking that sort of roll-up-sleeves approach to dealing with things.

24:14But it can be a really scary thing to do. So whatever you need to do to make it easy for yourself, whether that's having nice stationery or treating yourself to a coffee after you've done an hour of financial shit on a Saturday, make it part of your routine and make time for finance. We make time for all kinds of other appointments, like getting our nails done, going to the hairdressers, going to the gym, schedule it in, say, right, I'm going to do, it doesn't need to be long, could be half an hour a week, could be one hour a month, whatever you need, however simple or complicated your finances are, and just stay on top of it.

24:52I think it becomes a pleasure over time. What was really scary for me when I had loads of unsecured debt with, you know, priority debts as well, was that it was terrifying to face up to it. Like you said, you wouldn't open the mail, but then you kind of, you get through that you get through the negative and now it's investing it's these other positive things and i love it it's the best part of my month is getting paid sitting down firing all my money everywhere so some because you've been through this journey of negativity to a positive side i think it's really good and also i feel calm yeah after i've after i've done it like sometimes i think like oh i need to reconcile a load of payments and work out who's paying me who hasn't you know the life of a freelancer but once it's done it's like oh you've decluttered off your shoulder yeah you've decoded your life yeah to me do you want to hear a fun fact about tax don't get me excited i'm all about tax facts are you i love a bit of tax well okay so in 1970 the tax code was around 1500 pages now today 2025 is 22 000 pages hefty very so there's around 10 million words and there's more written about tax than any other type of law or legislation in the whole of the UK.

26:06It's one of the most complicated tax systems on the planet. We know how complicated tax can be, but we've got a tool that can help. TaxApp. TaxApp make it really easy to file your self-assessment. And if you're one of the 12 million people that needs to do that, the deadline is coming up on January 31st. With TaxApp, you don't need to have a lengthy back and forth with an accountant. And you don't need to navigate the complexities of HMRC on your own. You just sign up, add your info and they'll guide you through it. So you can submit your tax return in as little as 15 minutes. We've left the link in the description.

26:37Prices start from£49, but if you use the code MONEY10, you get 10 % off your first tax filing. That's M-O-N-E-Y-1-0. There's also a QR code on screen if you want to use that. Okay, T, talk to me about your attitudes towards risk. I mean, I like a bit of risk in my investments, but I definitely would say since the podcast, I've toned it down a little bit, not quite as gung-ho and carefree as I was in risk. Yeah, shooting from the hip all the time, weren't you? Yeah. I think personally that you should take risks, but it should always be in areas where you have a unique skill set, an edge, expertise, like your job, things like this.

27:16One area that I wouldn't take any risks is compliance. Yeah, the risk changes you grow in business and you need to be on top of it, which is why we partner with Vanta. Vanta automates a lot of risk processes and helps you see your risks in a centralized platform so you know what really needs your attention. Besides risk, the main thing Vanta does is automate compliance with security protocols you need to scale, like GDPR, HIPAA, ISO 27001 and SOC 2. The beauty of Vanta is they make it easy to prove you're compliant with these standards, saving you up to 90 % of the time it takes, and on average, half a million dollars.

27:49If you know what these acronyms like SOC2 are, you probably need Vanta. You can book in a demo at vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description. So speaking the decluttering of the life. So you have the seven steps and the first one is setting a goal, which I think is, you know, the personality. Then it's a goal. How do people know what kind of goal to set? It's really, really hard, isn't it? If you go and see a financial planner, that's the first question they're asking you. What are your goals in life? And it stumps people because we never think about tomorrow, next month, next year.

28:2810 years, 20 years. Yeah, exactly. In that kind of way. And especially in the moment, because we're just firefighting with money, with bills. Somebody asked me the other day, like, where do you see your career in five years time? Which is a classic kind of job interview question. As a freelancer, you're like, I just want to get paid next week. I don't really know, but we do need to take the time out to, to, to think about that. And also to recognize that we're not going to come up with the answers all in one go. It's a process. So when you're thinking about setting a goal, I think what's really helpful is to sort of think of lots of mini goals, like not think like, you know, what's the ultimate, I want to be a billionaire, You know, live in a hotel and, you know, have all of these supercars at my display.

29:18So it's got to be realistic. It's got to be something you can work towards. But also it doesn't necessarily just concern money. It could also concern other aspects of self-improvement. Like you might have a really great job in the city earning a six-figure salary, but you might hate it. And you might think, well, actually, my goal is to become a teacher. You might think, well, actually, my goal is to get out of the city. I think that hybrid working has opened up all kinds of possibilities for people, has made it easier in some cases for people to buy a house because they could conceivably go much further out of big cities like London and Manchester.

30:04and if they've only got to commute in once a week or once a fortnight, that's a kind of financial game changer for them. And it's all about what you want to spend your time doing. I do a little equation on one page and encourage people to work out what their hourly rate is. Like if you're trading your time for money in a job, what are you getting back? And then once you know your number, However, how are you then going to feel about spending it? Like if you're working out that you're earning£75 a day after taxes, say, if you go out after work one night and blow£75 with a spendy Wendy friend on a nice dinner or some drinks or something, you know, was it worth working the whole day in order to blow it on that?

30:52And it might have been. Or you could have been invited around for dinner or something. Yeah. It makes you frame the decision from a time perspective and an effort rather than - And then where the goal comes in is if you're thinking, right, so you've worked out what your big picture is, and then you've got to work out how you want to get there. And it might be that you don't know what you want to spend the money on, but you think that you can probably save, let's say,£200 a month into a stocks and shares ISA, £200 a month into your workplace pension, whatever. And so then you've got what you're left with.

31:26If you then get to the end of the month and you're thinking, oh, I'm going to have to raid the savings here if I want to go out with the spendy wendys. Because you've got the goal there and you're thinking, no, actually, the reason why I'm doing this ISA is because when I get to the age of 40, I want there to be enough money in there for me to hopefully buy a home or I'm saving up to go travelling for a year. You've defined an alternative to just sort of spending it willy nilly on stuff. And I think for so many of us, You know, we're just stuck in this sort of doom loop of getting through the day, finishing work late, getting a takeaway because we're on our way home and we don't have any food in or being rinsed in those supermarkets.

32:09My partner's always telling me stop buying takeaways. But anytime she's busy, I'm just like ordering. I think I do like three or four a week. And I'm like, it's a special occasion. It's Monday. It's a special occasion. It's Wednesday. But then at the end of the week, I'm like, I've just bought four takeaways. I could have just gone to Sainsbury's. and cook food but because I'm working I'm like oh let me just finish this and then I'll just order the food so I don't have to stop yeah but it adds up like the price of convenience and those supermarkets in railway stations and they're like 20 % more expensive than the normal supermarket you know there are so many traps that we fall into I mean I have to say I hold my hands up many many many takeaways were consumed as a result of writing this book because I was working full time i was doing um lbc i was doing icv again you're probably framing that then from a perspective of there is a convenience element here so you know yeah i'm i'm so busy with work and my hourly rate is x that i can actually justify this takeaway because i'm writing a book on top of that which is earning money because the price of the convenience yeah is worth it and if you are going to spend money on something you know make sure you enjoy it yeah um but if you're just doing I do enjoy my takeaway.

33:20I do enjoy my takeaway. I'm thinking about one right now, actually. It's because I just had a kid. So it's literally since he's been born - It's his excuse for everything. Yeah. It's great. Since he's been born, like my takeaways have definitely gone up like 100 % because it's like, oh, we've got to go shopping. You just don't have time anymore. Well, you've lost time in your day. So you're like, oh, well, let's not go shopping. We've got to look after the baby. I'll just order takeaways. The firefight. And it makes it harder to plan. And it makes it harder because then you've got to pay for the baby as well.