S1E11: Kerry Katona: How I went bankrupt twice

0:02Damo, what are you doing? well while we're waiting for our next podcast episode i'm sat here reading this magazine that's on the table about wallpaper very very quaint very old school you know what i never realized how much i missed those little rip-off sniffy perfume things that are in the middle but yeah i think um magazines are making a comeback mate in a world where everything feels digital and i'm just dying to put down a screen all of the time i quite enjoy sitting down with a magazine and having a read of it it's almost like you know buying a vinyl record yeah feels more real more tangible the music's more authentic it's richer yeah that's right which kind of leads us into today's sponsor one of the best finance publications in the uk is money week they're in print and online so you can get that nice magazine feeling in your hands money week sift and summarize the biggest stories in finance and then add their own journalism on top it means no more endless scrolling if you want to give money week a try you can get six issues in print and on the app absolutely free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money.

1:01After your trial, you'll save an extra five pound on a quarterly subscription exclusive to Making Money listeners. That's moneyweek.com forward slash money. And there's a link in the description for you. Just a heads up that this episode might not be suitable for all listeners. Kerry is incredibly open about her life. And that does mean there are some references here to drugs, suicidal thoughts and violence. If you're affected by anything mentioned in this episode, you can contact the Samaritans using the helpline that's in the description.

1:35Damien, where the hell have you brought me? This is not Will's house in West London. Come on, mate. So this is Kerry Katona's house, and she's invited us here today to have a chat about money. And I think it's going to be really good because she's someone who's made loads of cash, lost loads of cash, made it again. So hopefully through this conversation, we can really find out what money does to people. It's so cool. Oh, Kerry Katona, I can't wait to meet her. Let's do it.

2:04I told my mum I was speaking to you, and she was very excited. Oh, the mum's of me, that age group. Yeah, she does, she does. And I think one thing that strikes me is I could speak to my mum, I could speak to my son who's 10, and everyone would know who you are. You're probably one of the most famous people in the UK in that sense. And that means that kind of like everyone has an opinion on you. Yeah. So what we want to do today is kind of hear it from your side and just give you a chance to have a discussion because wrongfully, I think the media sometimes - Oh, massively, especially when the News at World was around.

2:31Ketamine and chips. Yeah, that was awful. I mean, that made me feel really suicidal. I can imagine. You know, that made me turn to drugs even more. I mean, what the media got wrong was like, they all thought that, you know, I was doing drugs because I was in a girl, but I was doing drugs well before that. You know, I was 14 years of age when we were giving the first drug. She told me it was Sherbert and it was speed. So when I got an atomic kitten, And like, there's so much that came with me that when the press found out about it, that was it. And I made a lot of mistakes and who doesn't, I'm sure you guys made mistakes, but mine was all in papers.

3:03I think it's far more relatable when you've made mistakes. Like with my channel, I sit there and go, I've been in loads of debt. I've messed up all the time. And I think that makes you more relatable and that's why we want to sit with you. Massively, for me, I think when I went into bankruptcy, everyone just vanished. Right. And even workers, like even production companies and TV shows didn't want to work with you because you're based on your success by what money's in your bank, which is bollocks now. I don't give a shit about any of this. I really don't care about any of it. Because one thing I realise is your riches are in your memories you create with your family.

3:34Yeah. Because that's all you're going to take when you took grave. Not what's in your bank, not the car you're driving, none of it, not the watch, any of it. I mean, I can afford it, so I'll do it, but I do it more for the kids. I couldn't agree more. I mean, a lot of people like Damien, they're good at saving, like planning for the future. I'm just all about experiences. Yeah, I'm not saying that. Holidays. Yeah. I'm not saying that. I like your style. Yeah. Holidays, having a good time. Like I want to enjoy myself while I can. My overall life's like that. I mean, it's like a proper penny pincher.

4:01Really like, you know. Good influence maybe. Or do you just ignore him? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Well, definitely like Ying and Yang. Like, you know, he's eight years younger than me. We're just complete polar opposites. Spins together five years. Does my bastard head in at times. But he's also my business partner. So without Ryan, I want to go back up to where I got up to because he got me great accountant. and he sorted all out. That's what he works in. So he knows numbers and figures and he knows how to do all that. And so, yeah, he's been a massive, he's been a great influencer. But even now, I don't like talking about money.

4:29Oh, you deal with that. I'm not interested. I don't know. Has that been part of the problem for you? Because, you know, people will say twice bankrupt. How? I came from, you know, living on a council estate, living with my Nana Betty, who brought me up most of my life. Just getting my clothes off a jumble sale, you know, and getting like shoes at game with Verrucas because it was second hand. I remember she got us these jumpers and I tried to sew Reebok on front. So I literally went from that. So the next thing you know - You were stripping at 16. Is that right? Well, with these fucking tits, you could blame it.

5:06I mean, that was my get out. Do you know what I mean? So I used what I had. I used what I got. And I mean, I didn't get put in Tom McKinnon because I had a great singing voice. I had a great set of tits, great personality. I had the looks. I can't sing. I'm a great singer, but that's, I know that's why I got in Atomic Kitten. Did that change your life financially, Atomic Kitten? Oh, massively, yeah. Like that, one minute I was living in a council flat, electricity got cut off. I was working as BT sales advisor. I was also a lap dancer at the same time. And next thing you know, I'm in this girl band and I'm like, this is just crazy.

5:38But I never spent anything because it's really weird. Money goes to money. So as soon as I became successful, I was getting everything for free. Yeah. That's crazy, isn't it? And I was just like, I've not spent anything. So when I married Brian, obviously we were millionaires, so I've literally gone from nothing. Because he was obviously very successful himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had 13 number ones, Westlife at the time, I think. So I literally went from having nothing to being this girl band to meet a boy band member, to becoming millionaires, to living this fairytale life, which it really wasn't a fairytale life.

6:13You've Googled it. to the, you know, getting separated, becoming the face of Iceland, becoming a millionaire all by myself, having my own reality shows, the face of OK Magazine, gone. It was at 2008? Yeah. And I read it was, was it a tax bill and you'd nearly paid all of it off? No, so I had a tax bill for£86 ,000, which was pennies to me. I mean, the contract for Iceland was like 360 grand a year. That was just for that contract. That's not included in all the other deals and all that other stuff that I got. Just for the adverts you were doing. Yeah. So I was pennies. So I had this accountant called David McHugh.

6:49I got introduced by the ladies from the Pink Ladies who I started working with. And so he started doing my accounts. Little did I know he was a con man. You know, he actually, I'm sure you Googled it. He did time. He's still on the run now. If you put his name in, he's still on a running island, I think, using fake names. So everyone thought, so when I got, Max Clifford rang me up and went, Kerry Gunn is bankrupt. I didn't know what fucking bankruptcy was. What do you mean? I said, I've got letters. It's all been paid. And it was all forgeries. It was all fake. I was like, please just go and search him.

7:23Anyway, they raided his house because it wasn't just me he was doing it to. I was only celebrity he did it to. Anyway, they went into his offices and in his ceiling, they went up, they found a big box. KK Media from Companies House, KK Amusements, KK, all these companies I was not aware. TSB checkbooks Lloyd's checkbooks all in my name did not have a clue and I lost everything like that How did your life change? What was it like after? Can you explain that? Yeah, I think obviously I had all this money people were using me I was buying me mum's love I was with Mark Croft and I just kept thinking oh my god how am I going to look after these babies I had four kids at the time it was all in private education I kept thinking what am I going to do I lost my houses, my cars and in the end I went to a boot camp off my head, high as a kite on coke and best thing that ever happened to me.

8:17I went there for two weeks to do like, oh, look how much weight I've lost, you know, kind of thing for Close Magazine. Had an affair with a trainer, best thing that ever happened to me. Went home, told Mark, I fell in love with somebody else, it's over and I packed my car up and I moved down south and I never looked back, I was there for 13 years. So you find a bankruptcy is good at getting rid of the people that are leeching off you. I mean, I think what people who are going through bankruptcy, I know in that moment, sometimes I'll be driving my car and think, I want to drive off a bridge. There's this shame, this guilt, embarrassment.

8:55People look at you differently as if, oh, they can't wait if you fall off that fucking pedal still. You're just from a council estate. No one wants you to do well. No one did back then. How did you find dealing with, because most people that go bankrupt, it's not blasted all over the newspaper. Like the whole world doesn't find out. So they can just go quiet and disappear. I don't know how I'm still sat here today. Because the amount of drugs I end up taking, I was having fits. I was embarrassed. I was mortified. I have 40 paps outside my house every day, even before the bankruptcy. Do you know what I mean?

9:27It was, I don't know how I got through it all. I don't know. Even now I think, God, I'm so fucking lucky to be here. I'm so grateful. I'm so blessed. I'm eternally grateful. I've got my guardian angel and I'm so appreciative that I'm here. You're pretty resilient as well. You bounce back three times now. I think that's because, yeah, I mean, I don't know anyone who's gone from nothing to becoming a millionaire, to going bankrupt, to get a bit back, to go bankrupt again, to becoming a millionaire again. Well, Disney's the only other person I could name, I think. I think like the second time I went into bankruptcy, it's like, oh, fuck it, so what?

9:55I've got my health. You knew you could survive it. Yeah, you can survive it. And I think I never understood before I went into bankruptcy why people would take their own lives over money. I didn't get it. I was like, it's just fucking money because I had it. And then when it happened to me, I was so suicidal. I would never do that to my kids. Especially when people know on the school run and things like that. Because of what, honestly, the way the people, the way they look at me, it was just like the shame. Like you've got a rash that they want or a disease they want to stay away from. It was like, you think it had some kind of fucking disease that I was going to give to somebody because there wasn't enough money in my bank.

10:32It's like, what? So when I die, are you going to go and do my eulogy? Go, she didn't have the latest Gucci bag and she only had such amount of money. No, you're not going to say that. You're going to talk about how kind you are, how nice I am, what a great mother I am. You know, we're going to talk about memories and laughter and things. You're not going to go about money in my bank on my eulogy, are you? And that took me a long time to realize that. Did you find people treating you differently when you made your money back again. I noticed the change when I was honest and open about my mistakes and when I owned my own mistakes.

11:05Now, no one's got anything on me anymore because I own it. Yes, I've done drugs. Yes, I've gone bankrupt. Yes, I've got divorced. Who you fucking are? I don't know what goes on next door. I was telling Damien yesterday. But I'm not going to judge them. Yeah, it must feel quite liberating though. You're like, no one, you can just be honest. Yeah, no one's got anything on me anymore ever. Do you know what I mean? And that's the only thing I can do. The one thing I will say is, scared of losing it. Yeah. And that's why I can never say no to work. And that's why I'm sat here in pain right now when I should be in an hospital.

11:34Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one thing I need to work out. Is that how you feel about money then? Are you scared about it? Yeah. I think there's that fear, which I have to change my mindset because what you put out of the universe, you get. So there is that fear of it being there, but it's also like you've got to, I think it took me a long time to realize I am not defined by the amount of money that's in my bank. I'm not defined by my mental health illness or my, you know, the coke I was doing. I'm not defined by that. I'm defined by who I am today as a survivor. Who you are as a mother as well.

12:06I'm not a fucking victim. Do you know what I mean? I can't blame everybody. I can't blame my mum for my child. I can't even blame David McHugh. Do you know what I mean? I trusted in people. So I've got to take responsibility for that. No one shoved coke up my nose. No one made me do anything I didn't want to do. Circumstances didn't help. and situations and people that didn't help. And people took advantage of me, definitely. But at the end of the day, I have to open my hands up and set full responsibility for everything that happened because otherwise you become very bitter and very angry, which I was for such a long, long time towards my craft, towards Brian, me, mom, the accountant.

12:41It was everybody else's fault but mine. The world owed me a favor. Doesn't fuck. No one owes me anything. The only person who can change your life is you. Only I can do that. You can't help me. When did you realize that? When was that kind of shift? I think the biggest shift on that was when I separated from my third husband. So it took a long, long time. I think I was about 36. I got into YouTube videos like Bob Proctor and Les Brown and Lisa Nichols and Oprah Winfrey and Tony Robbins. And I got into The Secret and, you know - Manifestation. Manifestation. Think and Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill. That's a fucking brilliant book.

13:25I've got so many books that I really got into. And that is, I started doing all that with George, my third husband, but he expected it all to land on his lap without doing any work. And the one thing no one can ever call me for is I'm a fucking grafter. I've always worked my ass off. From the age of 14, I had two jobs. I've never had anybody else's money. It's always been mine. Even when I split up with Brian, I did all that myself, which people think they don't even know that. I did it by myself. No one helped me. No one was there to help me. I think people would assume you sat for life. You're going to get Westlife checks until the end of your days.

13:58Absolutely fucking not. Absolutely. I wish that was the case. Absolutely not. No, I did it all by myself. I put it for education. Don't get me wrong. When I went into bankruptcy, I did turn to Brian and he lent me£10 ,000. He didn't lent it me, he gave it me because I was like, look, you haven't helped out. And he gave me£10 ,000 for the girls. And that was about it. You said earlier, you said your money habits, You grew up like you always used to buy your mother's love. And you've said before you bought your friend's love. Do you still have that habit or have you changed a bit? Absolutely not.

14:28And do you know why that was? Yeah, I think self-worth. I think self-worth, I think because of the situations I was in as a child, I was so desperate to be loved. That's why when I did The Jungle and I won, I think that's why I became famous. I've always just wanted to be loved. Yeah. That's all I wanted. You know, I had four sets of foster parents, three refuges, eight different skills. didn't know my biological dad. And then I met my sister and my brothers at the age of 28. You know, my life's been... Steven Spielberg couldn't write half the shit I've been through. Honestly, I've just finished doing my third autobiography.

15:03And we've got scriptwriters who took over the first book because they want to turn it into like a film show kind of thing, which is brilliant because I just did the audio book for my third book and I read it out loud. I went, you can't fucking write this shit, don't you? I kept thinking, have I really been through this? It's like, it goes from one crazy thing to another crazy thing. It's just, it's like, this is not normal. Yeah, it's not boring as well. It's definitely not boring. Nothing phases me. No. Unless it comes to my kids. That's when I get panicky. And I've definitely got, I've got health anxiety anyway, because DJ's daddy died when she was five.

15:40So I'm a model coral DJ, my youngest. So I'm always like, I don't ever, I've never lost anybody who's been that, obviously I lost my nan and then obviously my husband and then my auntie dropped dead. So I have this fear of, I have anxiety a lot of the time over the kids, making sure that they're all all right. Can we talk about the kids? You were mother of the year twice, weren't you? Is that right? I'm joking. I just dropped mother of the year and then you're like. You can't believe that shit because of what you're reading. They think it's so plausible. Where's the kids on social services? They go, oh, right, okay.

16:12Fucking joking, they're in a cage under the stairs. No, but you were celebrity mother of the year twice twice no one's ever done that no how do you how do you with money and the children no one that was a shit you know i'm honored you know but i think at the time it's just who's a mom do you know i mean i was i'm not bothered about what anyone else thinks about me i'm care about what my kids think about me everything i do is for them the ungrateful little bastards yeah where's the mother's day card honored that is what really upset me and And because they've never had to, I took our Heidi to where I was brought up.

16:48Rough as fuck, honestly. My kids don't talk like me. They all talk very well, you know, very Southern, very posh. And, you know, they're all very well educated. And, you know, I'm dyslexic. You know what I mean? Academically, thick as fuck. Businesswise, streetwise, I'll knock you all out of the park. Do you know what I mean? But my kids are very academic. I think one is, I took our Heidi to where I was brought up. And it's really, really rough where I was brought up. And I went, get out whenever I want to get it out around. Is it Warrington? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not all the Warringtons. No, no, no.

17:19When I was born, something was. So yeah, my kids have been, and this is a lesson I've only recently just learned, especially because of Mother's Day. I've given them everything. Too much. Too much. They're spoiled almost. They're not spoiled. Like you meet, you go, they're a credit to you, Kerri. And they are a credit. You go, they're a credit to you, those are, Kerri. Do you know what I mean? but I do say to him when we leave the house I'm the only fucker who embarrasses his family are you listening my job my name just remember that so I think I have I made a role for my own back because I've given him and I've got no shame in the fact of like like he came in here Christmas day I had 24 hours off because I was doing panto I was up till 4 o 'clock in the morning wrapping all the presents gets up at 7 get the kids up and the piles of presents for them I have no shame in that They're my kids.

18:12Every parent does that. Yeah. And then I do remember one time Molly and Lily, they was at the school, the private school, and I've got like every car under the sun and we live in a house, got a cinema room and all that kind of shite. And Molly and Lily came on this one time and they was dead snotty or up their own arse belt. So I thought, who the fuck do you two think you bastard? Get in the car, get in the car. I took them to a refuge. I took them to a refuge, which I was an ambassador for at the time, to show them like, you know, I was in, I was in refuge as a kid. I remember being nine years of age.

18:45It was Christmas morning and, um, we just got rehomed to Violet Street in Manchester and it was Christmas morning. We had, I think we had a sofa, dining room table. We had no TV, no decorations. And the people from the refuge knocked on Christmas morning with a bin bag of secondhand stuff. And I was so grateful. I like little smelly thing, love art thing you put in in your knicker jar that makes it smell nice. A lavender, lavender ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like a can of corned beef and things like that. And I was just grateful. I've always, like nothing, like if someone said, can I drive a Lamborghini?

19:20Yeah, it's okay, don't bother me. I might, if I - Can I drive your Lamborghini? Yeah, take a brush, don't bother me. Whereas Ryan, who hasn't had that kind of stuff before, he's got the Aventador, the ultimate in the garage. Fuck me, I won't even look at the thing. Do you know what I mean? Because I think we're different people that respect it. I like to bring people on the journey with me. yeah take it for a ride it's only like an older but just better do you know what I mean well that's why he's here he's my man I'm like getting involved in the podcast like a share of success do you know what I mean and that's what it's all about what's the point in having all this you can't share it very by day yeah exactly I'm all about that build other people up like a friend Dawn I want to make sure I'm looking after her and you know she's involved in my life because she's been there for me but the only people that are in my life are Ryan Dawn and my kids that's it I go to work come home go to work come home that's it Obviously, I have got friends and stuff, but I don't have a social life.

20:10I don't go out at night. I'm in bed by 8 o 'clock, mate. When did that change? I think the older you get, you do change. But I noticed with a lot of my friends from back in the day, I thought, God, you're still doing the same thing. If you want to change your life, you've got to make changes in your life as a person. You keep doing the same thing, you keep getting the same results. I kept getting married. I kept having these kids. I mean, I've been with Ryan five years, and I think about getting married. I think, oh, God, it scares the shit out to me. You know, don't want no more babies. Absolutely not.

20:38You know, that's it. So I'm a different person as well. I had to really work on me and learn to love myself before I could let anybody else love me. And that was at the age of 36 after I split up with my third husband. What's the scariest word in the English language to me? Tax. How's it make you feel, mate? Oh, stressed, sweaty palms, squeaky bum time. Don't like it. Mom is spaghetti. Yeah, exactly. You got one shot. Yeah. One opportunity to not go to jail for avoiding tax. Like, yeah, I don't like tax. It's scary. Tax can be really stressful, which is why we're excited about our partnership with TaxApp.

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22:14So yeah. Yeah, shooting from the hip all the time, yeah. I think personally that you should take risks, but it should always be in areas where you have a unique skill set, an edge, expertise, like your job, things like this. One area that I wouldn't take any risks is compliance. Yeah, the risk changes you grow in business and you need to be on top of it, which is why we partner with Vanta. Vanta automates a lot of risk processes and helps you see your risks in a centralized platform so you know what really needs your attention. Besides risk, the main thing Vanta does is automate compliance with security protocols you need to scale, like GDPR, HIPAA, ISO 27001, and SOC 2.

22:53The beauty of Vanta is they make it easy to prove you're compliant with these standards, saving you up to 90 % of the time it takes, and on average, half a million dollars. If you know what these acronyms like SOC 2 are, you probably need Vanta. You can book in a demo at vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description. With your whole journey, like the movie, the Hollywood movie that it is, when do you think you were happiest like the whole time? I think now. Yeah. That's great. That's good. I think now, I think this is a more, oh don't get me wrong, I've still got issues and my kids have issues.