The wealth gap no one talks about

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0:48Because there's a dynamic here with wealth and wage that is the truth that needs to be told. Dr. Eliza Philby is a generations historian. She's written a book called Inheritocracy. it's time to talk about the bank of mum and dad. She's travelled around the UK to understand who wins, who loses and what we should be doing about it. 5.5 trillion pounds trickling down over the next 20 years has been estimated. Is that just parents doing the right thing or is it actually creating a system that is inhibiting young people that don't have that? Who are the success stories that don't have the bank mum and dad?

1:25The people that are waking up, the ones that are taking control of their own money.

1:34i want to start with a question for to main actually oh me isn't the dick of me out in this stuff i know where this is going that's it focus on him where's that lovely jacket from mate um i actually inherited it from my dad he gave i took it i'm like i like that i'm taking that so yeah this is the you know this is um the theme of today's conversation is inheritance and how sometimes like the the advantages we get might be subtle or they might not be obvious you know I'm sat here in a working man's car heart t-shirt freezing my arse off and this guy's got his lovely soft leather. No, no, no. I got off my dad's jacket.

2:06It's his dad's jacket. I know it is because I was like, I was like, I've seen this jacket before. He's like, I like that jacket. I'm like, yeah, it's my dad's. And I was like, perfect. Very cool. Yeah. That's very seventies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you inherit that watch as well? No, I bought this watch. We'll get answered to Maine throughout this. I'm only joking. We won't dig you out today, mate. But no, I mean, the book itself deals with this theme of the rise of inheritance and it's called Inheritocracy, which is kind of like a play on meritocracy. Yeah. So, and do you want to, meritocracy is this idea that if you work hard, you can get ahead.

2:43Yeah. So to sort of broadly, crudely define, meritocracy is obviously this idea that hard work will get you to where you want it to and that there's a sort of fair system in which that hard work is rewarded, right? Inheritocracy is a kind of inversion of that where it's not to do with hard work. It's not to do with your educational attainment or even your wages and where that gets you, or even financial education and savviness when it comes to investing money. It's actually the lottery of birth. It's whether you have access to the bank of mum and dad and whether you don't. And really the story I'm trying to tell in the Inheritocracy kind of book is this idea of since the 2008 financial crisis, really anyone under the age of 45 has been operating in an economy where wages have stalled so it's not what you're earning that's determining your opportunity because wages have stalled it's not what you're like learning because although we were the generation that was encouraged as many of us to get to university and really see education as the pathway to success that actually the returning investment on that education is declining it's whether you have access to the bank of mum dad and the real divide between anyone under the age of 45 in this country and actually frankly across the world is whether you have access to that safety net and springboard of your parents and frankly whether you don't and that's really determining all sorts of things obviously access to housing but also um child care access to child care access to affordable education and and all of that stuff and it's really impacting that basically level of opportunity in the 21st century so what so meritocracy maybe like rugged individualism as the Americans would call it, or the American dream.

4:22All of these ideas are very similar, right? Anyone can pull themselves up from their bootstraps. Self-made. Being that kind of self-made, you can do it from wherever you're from, whatever your background, whatever your parents' education or wealth bracket, you can make it on your own and on your own terms. There's a huge myth around that now. Why is that so pervasive? I think, to call it, I'm going to say the whole idea of a self-made man is quite a masculine an idea first off um I think there has it's always been like you say heavily influenced by the American dream and what we see in culture and movies and and and kind of kind of the heroes of the age but I think it's it's this idea of you know that came about in the 20th century particularly the post-war where the kind of old aristocrats were being sort of upended there was a new kind kind of universal healthcare system.

5:19There was a new universal education system. And there was a meritocracy emerging that was leading to good jobs and well-paid jobs and affordable housing and good pensions, all things that actually have eroded in the 21st century. So the idea was there and actually the data was there. There was a rising social mobility, but actually it stalled and declined in the 21st century. Do you think it's powerful branding? And, you know, for example, the American dream is a big pull for talented labor to emigrate there. And it also, imagine saying to your workforce, oh, you're fucked. Work as hard as you want, you ain't going nowhere.

5:59Do you know what? I think it's a really, well, there's two points there. It's number one, I think, like, particularly in America, that whole idea of being self-made, you want to believe in that. Like, you know, no one wants an inheritocracy. Like, it's a truth no one wants to really talk about or be told about, really, because it's kind of defeatist. If you think everything is a lottery of birth, why bother? Why bother? So, like, the American Dream is the idea, like, you can come as an immigrant to America. Anyone. Anyone. And, like, come from Ireland, come from India and make your fortune. Or even America.

6:31You can pull yourself up from the bootstraps. Exactly. It's an impossible task, though, right? It was from a physics book. I read about it. Oh, really? In the 1800s, there was an example in a physics course textbook that said it's as impossible as pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. This idea that anyone can lift themselves up. So it's meant to describe an impossible task. And it's now been like morphed into this thing of like anyone can become anything. But actually, the roots of it are an impossible task. I mean, there's always myth. There's always like, you know, examples of reality.

7:03You look at Donald Trump. I mean, he embodies or seemingly embodies kind of the self-made man, the sort of American dream. But of course, that's frankly rubbish because, of course, he had the bank of mom and dad. Right. So I think it's it is a really it serves a purpose in culture to have that idea of you can do what you want to do. And there are examples, a huge number of people I interviewed who really had had no support from their parents, had had no kind of sustainable education and had made it on their own terms and in their own way and by their own definitions. Right. This is all relative as to what you see and how you see success.

7:42So I do think it's really important we have that narrative in society. But I also think we need to be realistic about how the economic conditions are changing for young people and families. And I think that the difference between those that live on wage and those that have wealth, and that is becoming ever more divided. So I wrote this book because I was trying to understand why it was that everyone in my peer group, everyone in my circle was struggling so much, but working so hard. and frankly I have quite a narrow social group and I was like I need to find out what's going on across Britain and frankly also across the world because there's a dynamic here with wealth and wage that is the truth that needs to be told and no one's really talking about which is this access to the bank of mum and dad and the way in which we are so dependent on our parents and struggling if we don't have that safety net and that springboard.

8:46I thought it was just like they help people with a deposit that's the bank of mum and dad for your first property and like all my friends in london who have houses i'm pretty sure all of them if not 90 of them their parents help them with their deposit for their their property so i always thought i don't have the bank of mum and dad because they didn't get me a property but we were talking about it seems that there's a bit more we had a briefing call didn't we yeah we were talking yeah and we were talking and so i was like oh you know they paid my rent at uni and like no they paid my deposit at uni they got me my first car but they didn't get me a deposit for house a few holidays private health care yeah private health care yeah the starter pack for like you know like drop it calling the parent care package they give you like deposit for uni uh a car uh it wasn't the greatest car private health care okay that's i played basketball so i get injured a lot so like ankle knee injuries things like that but yeah they didn't give me I still had to pay my uni still got a student loan still paid that off that flat you had in Manchester was real nice yeah they paid for the deposit of the flat in Manchester yeah nice every month they paid you're funny they did not pay you melt they did not pay every month I wish no they did pay for my deposit and my uni deposit and yeah no but like if you close if you close it in there Tomein's family are very successful but what I noticed within Tomein's family culture is I mean what I know is him and his brothers and sisters, they don't give like, you drove a beat up Honda and you rent where you rent now.

10:17There's not this kind of like, here's a deposit. It's almost like cultural. It's like, no, you struggle till we die. Then you get everything, but you've got to raise yourself up. But we'll help you where we can. Yeah, like little bits. That's so true. So I think, Tamayne, you pointed to a really important thing here is that we're just saying the bank of mom and dad, like it's just sort of literally a bank that just showers money on people. It comes in different ways in different families, right, with different expectations and frankly different conditions. So one of the things that I worked out in the book was the bank of mum and dad.

10:47First of all, that notion that there's a mum and dad, both a mum and dad, is inaccurate because actually rising divorce, rising blended families, we can't even assume that there is that kind of family unit there, right? so that in itself is a privilege if you have if your parents are still together and and are an economic unit and can help their their their kids that's that's one element but also it's like in what ways are your parents supporting you we tend to assume when we think about the bank of mum and dad it's it's middle-class londoners getting help with the house actually the data says it's only in scotland only in scotland where young people not reliant on the bank of mum and dad and are more reliant on their own savings.

11:29So this is a national story, not a London story, right? It's also not just housing, because it's support with student accommodation, which student rents have gone up 14 % since the pandemic. The cost of university education is huge, but also things like support with childcare. The number of grandmas you see in the playgrounds on a Friday afternoon tells you one thing, that the cost of childcare is so expensive that grandparents parents are stepping up and helping out. Bank of mum and dad's mum and dad. It's now the bank of grandma and granddad. So there's also just like having a crash pad to save for a deposit, right?

12:05That is your mum and dad helping you, giving you the space to get a foot on the housing ladder without actually giving you the deposit. We've just had a cost of living crisis and a mortgage crisis. The bank of mum and dad have been helping out with, you know, supporting with the mortgages and also just, you know, transferring billions of pounds and gifts to their kids to sustain their kids through the cost of living crisis. So I think we need to like broaden this understanding of the bank of my dad. And then we go, okay, well, when are you getting that money? Because if you get it in your 20s, we know the accumulation of wealth over time leads to greater wealth.

12:42So if you're getting that deposit in your 20s, that's so much more of a privilege and a starting point than getting it in your 60s when your parents are likely to die so there's a real discrepancy a distinction between when are you getting that support when are you getting that potential is it a gift or is it an inheritance if it's a gift and really early early on in your life you could get it flat in your 20s you're in a house in your 30s you can afford to have kids you can afford to escalate up the ladder of adulting in a way that frankly someone that maybe who doesn't have that cash lump sum from their parents cannot so it's like when are you getting that support and also like is it bad or good I tried to come at this with no fixed judgment that actually parents want to help.

13:25We're not talking about this like evil capitalist system here. We're talking about parental love. I want to help my kids get somewhere, get on the ladder, do better than I did. Or I want to share my success with my kids. So there's a kind of like a value judgment here is what are we saying about inheritance or what are we saying about the bank mom and dad? Is it a good thing that we enable that in society and it's not overly taxed, for example, although it's beginning to be? Or is it a system that is corrosive to social mobility and meritocracy and stopping young people getting on? Well, the problem is, is that you have baby boomers, an extraordinary amount of wealth, right?

14:06And this is, they had three things that anyone under 45 is not experienced in their lifetime. Rising wages, good pensions and affordable housing. Those conditions that were there in the 80s, amongst other economic difficulties, it was not easy in the 80s, means that one in five baby boomers in the UK is a millionaire. And I'm saying that's some, not all, to be clear, but there's such an amazing amount of wealth in that older generation that is trickling down. It's trickling down. There's£5.5 trillion worth in housing and similar in that is going to be trickling down. So£5.5 trillion trickling down over the next 20 years has been estimated.

14:47Is that fair? Is that just parental love? Is that just parents doing the right thing? Or is it actually creating a system that is inhibiting young people that don't have that? Because housing is so expensive. Education is so expensive. Childcare is so expensive. People that can afford to get on those key, get those through those key milestones in life are the only ones that have that inheritance that bank of mom and dad and that's the big question the book is it's not the inheritance is bad it's not helping your kids is bad it's just actually if we created an economic system which that's the only way the only way really to make a success of yourself and get the big ticket items in life so i i like i struggle with it in a way because I until I was 14 I was single parent family in inner city Birmingham me and my mom like no money my stepdad come along and I would I was basically it's all right it happens all the time the for the listeners the the coaster flew off the table um so and then I went to university and it was there was like little bits of support along the way so for example one thing that I could say was I blew all my money in the first term of university didn't pay my rent and they were going to kick me out and my stepdad come in and pay 500 quid that kept me in uni if i hadn't have had that i probably would have left uni probably should have left uni that's a good question it's completely pointless but i've now got myself to a place where through mainly my own endeavors uh where i'm like pretty successful i earn good money you know and i do think that like put me naked in the jungle i'll find a way to earn some cash do you know i mean and and i And I have to internalize that because I have to think like it's on me.

16:34Like that's the drive. And I almost have this thing of like, I'll do it myself no matter what. And I like, are you saying you've already answered the question in a way, but are you saying that no one can get it? Or is it that there's a few people that can still get it, but in general, it's so much harder. So you've like, my mind's going in several different directions here. So let me just zoom in on one thing. Like, let's just remember the story our generation were told, right, which is work really hard in school, get to university, get to university, because that is the path to success. Right.

17:07Let's get as many of you to university. Let's not think about the pathways for those that don't get to university. And let's be frank, like the government hasn't provided a pathway for those that didn't get to university. And that is a travesty in my view. But this idea of get to university. And by the way, we're going to charge you for it now. So the price of the degree went up, but the value of that degree went down. And so our narrative as a generation was meritocracy through education equals success, right? That hasn't happened. It hasn't happened because we increased the numbers of people going to university, but actually wages and the return on that investment and the price of that education didn't quite match up to the narrative we were told, right?

17:52So that was the story we were told. but actually the examples in the book that I found, um, I talked to one guy who's from a council estate in Newcastle and none of his parents, his parents had been, um, his dad worked in a factory. They'd not been to university education. He thought was the path to success. And he had a very good professional job, but he said in his mind, the reason why he had been now, in a position to buy a house was not because of his education. It was because of his financial education, his financial savviness and his individual seeking out of content like this, podcasts, information, insights to invest in the right way, to save in the right way, to educate himself on how money works and how he could make it work for him.

18:49and so it was interesting is when i look at who are the success stories that don't have the bank mom dad because they are right i'm not saying we're all screwed by the inheritocracy no one can make it on their own that's not true but the people that are making it the ones that are taking control of their own money and making it work for them well spawn yeah exactly and you're a living embodiment of that right and but also people that were really clever about what course they did at university you know like apology because it had a higher percentage of women real smart

19:27this is what privilege does we can pick a course based on how the amount of women you know what actually that's an interesting point because people that have the bank of mom and dad tend to work in not always but are navigated towards professions that actually pay less they can afford to work in journalism they can afford to work in that's so funny i used to work in journalism i used to be in an editor the tatler magazine like oh wow yeah yeah yeah so yeah i was like i want to be a journalist when i go older then i was like there's actually very much money in like print media anymore so that's kind of what led me away but my parents like yeah go pursue your dream go be a journalist i was like cool journalism is full of the kids of bank mum and dad because they're the only ones that can afford to live on those wages yeah but also live in london and aspire to those those traditional professions like a decline of working class journalism is a serious issue within this country particularly because the infrastructure of local journalism has collapsed but I digress the most important thing that you referenced is is like actually it wasn't your degree it was you taking control of your money so that became in the book like really clear all the interviews that I did the people that could make it without the bank of mum and dad the ones that were financially savvy really saved and invested their money didn't sort of subscribe to traditional kind of financial norms and saw their life beyond wages, frankly, right?

20:47But there were also another sort of success story in the book, which is STEM graduates. There's a real difference, distinction, I hate to say this, but distinction between STEM, is that jargon? For the listeners who don't know, what is STEM? Science, technology, engineering, maths. Yeah. Right? STEM students. and the return on that investment in that education has paid off and if you're a stem worker outside london you are raking it in you are highly successful in in terms of the cost of living the cost of housing being that much more affordable um and the wages actually being yeah you get them london star wages with northern property prices exactly exactly so those were the two evident um male success stories in an inheritocracy there was also though women right so i can talk a bit about that later but one of the interesting things that i found when i was i was doing all these interviews with lots of what i call millennial meritocrats who were like yeah i'll talk about the inheritocracy because i've subverted it like i've seen my friends all sort of like you know with houses falling into their laps by their parents but actually i've managed to get my own house or get on the ladder by myself right the people i couldn't find to talk about in heritocracy were what i call the henrys high earners not rich yet and that's those earning over sort of 60 000 pounds who were reliant on the bank of mom and dad but were also quite in quite high income brackets because they didn't want to admit that they were reliant on their It shouldn't be shameful.

22:26It shouldn't be shameful to be helped by your parents. Is this reliant for what are they reliant? They've got a deposit for a house deposit. Women were so much more likely to talk about how their parents had helped them on the housing ladder, parents would help childcare, parents and in-laws had helped them. Men, much more unwilling to talk about their support on their parents and particularly their support and reliance, the reliance on the in-laws. Like, that's where the real shame is, is that the power struggle, if you're in a partnership, and actually it's the in-laws that bought the house, not you through wages alone.

23:04We're sat in one right now. Oh, no! Will in the back there, producer in the back there, waving. Don't be shaming. No, I think you married well, didn't you? My wife's grandparents. Yeah, your wife's grandparents. Yeah, and we literally, yeah, we wouldn't have this. but but like but you know this is this is a terraced house in north london you spang this up in where i'm from up north it is nice but you bang this up where i am up north 300 grand maybe like in a really good area here like it's a lot of money and who could who could afford to buy that with off their own endeavors even if you had two incomes at 100 grand each i mean you're gonna need to save hundreds of thousands of pounds so i grew up in how in tooting south london so it feels very foreign for me to be in North London, can I just say?

23:51But my mum was the breadwinner. My dad stayed at home, quite unconventional in the 1980s. But she bought a house, a five bedroom house in Tooting for£28 ,000. And the mortgage she got for that was three times her wages. Now the average mortgage in London is nine times your wages to buy first time property, which is probably not a five bedroom house in London. So the comparison is just like wild. And that's just, you know, across generations. You're right to talk about the comparison across counties in the UK. How much would a house in Tootin like that be worth? A million. Really? Yeah. And your granddad won a house, didn't he?

24:29Tootin Beck's nice. Tootin Beck's really nice. Come on, keep the London chat out of it. No one's here. You get Londoners together, like, oh, do you know this bit of London? Oh, that bit of London. It's so good. I still live where I grew up. Okay. and I've seen it being gentrified it wasn't that nice in the 1980s but what's interesting is I could only afford to live in the area I grew up because my parents helped me out so that's and that's quite you got priced out of the area you grew up in yeah and I would say a lot in London a lot in London now it happens actually more broadly in the south east because it happens in places like Oxford, Cambridge maybe even Bristol you know there's manchester manchester is very similar i think you know people that grow up in what were quite rough areas that are now like as the city spreads they're becoming quite expensive the problem is with that is it you know the families now are more intertwined not than ever but like if you're you want when you want to be close to your parents or your grandparents you want them to be connected to your your children or you want eventually going to have to look after them when they will need you as they age.

25:41So actually you want to be able to, families should be able to live near each other. Last time we recorded, Tomei, and you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes and yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much, yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp.

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28:04If you're a business that needs to prove security and compliance, visit Vanta.com forward slash making money to sign up for a completely free demo today. That's V-A-N-T-A.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. Is there a cultural element here? Because I grew up in Birmingham and I had a lot of Muslim friends and they would live like 10 people in a house. the nans, the aunties, all the kids. And then all the older brothers that were like 19, 20, would be driving BMWs. And I'd be like, what's going on? It's like, we all live in there together.

28:38And what we all do is we live here. And then when we leave, we all buy a house and the whole family buy a house. And it's kind of like their culture. Africans do that as well. 100%. So there's a woman I interviewed in the book called Alina, who's originally from Mumbai, but living in London now. And she was like, why are you writing a book about the bank of mum and dad? She couldn't understand why it was an issue, why it was even a problem i'm with her on that one honestly yeah i'm sure it's my problem i've got uncles who were like they were living they like driving like mercedes and stuff in nigeria and they were living in like my grandparents house and it's like a house they've got a pool yeah and like they've got servants i could get a house but i'm just going to chill with my parents and save money on rent and just like enjoy life and have nice cars and like so you never you never get the pressure to be like you need to move out like obviously if you're going to have a wife or like you have a family then it might be time to move out but like Like if you're a single man, you can live with your family until you're like 40, 50.

29:30No one would say anything in Africa because they're like, you're contributing. You're going to help your parents out. If they need help, you can drive them places. You can look after them. So it's like, you have to give back, but they're not going to charge you rent because you're their kid. So it's kind of like a different culture. And she was exactly the same. Like she grew up in Mumbai. Her parents had been saving for her wedding since she was four and her education since she was very young, right? And she studied animation in New York for five years and she had a great time she was like the thing i couldn't get my head around was that there would be people like students there my friends who'd be talking about borrowing money from their parents and she'd be like borrowing why are you borrowing are you paying it back like and they were like yeah yeah and so she she was just that whole notion of like of course you you live in a society that is is governed by parental help like that's just how it is but she said you know it comes with a reciprocal obligation definitely right it's not just the money flowing down it's inevitably the money flows back up the family tree the care in particular flows up and and they come to live with you and she's like you know we're living in the flat that my um husband's parents bought him and we're going to move back to mumbai when the time comes and our parents need us and as we put them in a car home yeah exactly yeah and that bleeds all the money as well my grandparents lived with me for like two years towards the end of their lives they were in nigeria then they come here live with us for six months and go back to their house in nigeria for six months and like yeah stay with us yeah get a hotel or don't but but then you have the story in the uk has been slightly different over the last since the second world war is you had a welfare state that supported the sick and the elderly and and and you know more and more women went out to work.

31:12So that care kind of infrastructure became slightly different. And the rise of like basically 2.4 children, where just two generations live together, not three. And that became the expectation, right? A societal expectation. In places like, you know, India and Nigeria, it's not a societal expectation. And I think we're going back, you know, to that, okay, multi-generational households now they're interestingly in the uk first second generation immigrant families you've actually seen a slight decline in multi-generational families live at three generations living under one roof but a rise in um in across the uk population in slight rise in multi-generational households but you know rise of gran exes and all that kind of stuff because it's a granny flat oh granny a granny flat oh granny granny flat oh granny one way in one way out granite annex enjoy so alcatraz for old people um there's there's yeah there's a slight rise in in those kind of kind of things because the cost of social care is so expensive and we're starting to go actually maybe we shouldn't put um you know our older relatives in in social care homes which are more expensive than eaten now yeah yeah yeah i mean coming back to that point around shame though so i look at um you know brooklyn beckham like the the nepo baby things and like the shame and like the berating people get you know i mean yeah the guy can't help that he's david beckham's son and he's and yeah granted it's like oh he's suddenly the chief photographer for prada and can't take a picture and now he's a chef and it's and it's a bit like come on mate like pay your dues but why is there such a stigma and then by shame for nepotism stand up for brooklyn beckham a minute we are there's a lot more nepo babies in society than than we realize.