What to do when you disagree about money

0:01You know what I love, Damo? Things that save me time. You don't have YouTube premium, mate, so I just don't believe that. Granted, I'll give you that one. However, I've got one for you. A great time saver in personal finance is Money Week magazine. They spend a lot of time distilling the biggest stories in personal finance down into consumable chunks, so you don't have to scroll and scroll. They give practical tips on savings, investments, pensions, the UK economy, the global economy. It's like your five a day, but for finance. If you want to give Money Week a try, you can get six issues in print and the app absolutely free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money.

0:34After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 a quarter on the subscription, which is exclusive to Making Money listeners. And that's moneyweek.com forward slash money. But there's a link in the description if you just want to click that.

0:48Usually two people in a couple won't have the same attitude to risk. Usually two people in a couple won't have the same sort of labels around whether you're a saver or a spender. Just explain my relationship. Yeah, I was going to do that. I hit a nail on the head. Okay. Sarah J Maxwell is a qualified financial advisor and coach who helps couples work through their issues around money. I occasionally get people coming to me where they are maybe ready to separate because the communication has become so bad. There's something around visualisation that helps you to go a bit deeper. The money man comes out and he's like, hey!

1:18And what's your reflection on that? So you're kind of training your brain to talk about money because generally speaking, you know, people don't. what made you start coaching people about money very initially um i was about to set up a financial advice practice that was my plan um and i thought i'd love to go a bit deeper with people than what i'd seen in the past before i'd love to make sure that i'm asking the right questions and i'd love to learn more about coaching so i went on a one-week residential course in brighton um with a lady called Simone Ganesan who's awesome she's like the mother of financial coaching in the UK and I learned all about the just the concept of financial coaching and I loved it I loved it so much that at the end of that week I completely changed the business that I was planning to set up from a financial advice practice to a financial coaching practice there's definitely space for both and both are really relevant and really important.

2:20I think generally speaking, financial coaching can come first. So it can help somebody to maybe understand their own circumstances. It can help somebody if they want to be in control of their own cash flow, of their own money, if they want to kind of recognize what it is that they want in life. It can be a great starting point towards financial advice it can also support where a financial advisor won't support or can't support if they have kind of minimum entry requirements of certain funds under management you know financial coaching can be really helpful there sorry if there's a bit of drilling in the background the doors are open because it's roasting today and he's got his shorts on they can't see

3:09have you shaved them mate now you see we need some financial couples therapy yeah do you find a lot of financial coaching the people that come to you the clients are they like quite new to investing or they do you have experienced investors as well are they quite young quite old how is everything yeah it's such a mix it's so interesting i think when i first started out i thought i'll be getting people that don't really have much of an understanding they don't have investments already. I just thought it'd be a certain way, whereas the reality is very different. You know, people may have had experience and they might dip the toe into investing, but become really scared because, you know, they bought assets at a period of time where we had some sort of financial thing going on and they went down in value and they dip the toe right back out and they become afraid of it versus people that have got lots of wealth.

3:57And, you know, they're really au fait with investing, but actually what they're coming to work on is what is my what is my life about like what am I working towards the right goal sometimes people get somewhere and then they go oh my god this wasn't my goal I'm suddenly here I've got this amazing business or I've sold my business and I've got a load of money and now like what what what now like what is life now this you know I had an impression of this moment in time and it's not the reality so I need to do some work around what it is I actually want yeah we all know money won't make us happy but we all want to find out for ourselves you know and i think when people get there they go oh crap like this isn't but you know when when you hear that from people you're like shut up i'll take your money give me your money give it to me and i'll see how happy i am like i can empathize with that so much because you know if you shape your whole life around the aspiration to get more money maybe because of where you're from or whatever the reasons are and then you get there and then it's kind of not all it cracks up to be you that's really like it's like earth shattering because what's my purpose you know what's the point now yeah what what is life you know it's big questions right yeah it's like I got to this happiness point where everything was going to be okay and and it's not so being able to kind of break free of those patterns and realize that you know some of the beliefs they've been given through childhood or life experiences are kind of not what they want to carry forwards to their kids or to their own life um what about your childhood experiences oh how did they how did they get you here so i think and the way where i talk about things is this idea of um there's a balance between joy in the moment things that we do that we love and growth for the future and um you know my whole concept is that I'm helping you to find a balance that suits you that comes from the fact that as a kid I was a saver so I would always be like saving my quids and my and changing these quids for notes into a little red money box and that would just sit there and it would just get saved and like for what like hardly ever hardly ever would have spent anything because it was like this saver mentality and I think what I've recognized from that is that I was so focused on this growth and I still see it play out in my life that i wasn't taking the time to have the phone have the joy do the things that i wanted to do whereas my sister looking at me for too and i had to work on getting this guy to spend some of his money and enjoy life yeah whereas i was the opposite i was just like spend and i'll figure out the future later he was like the future the future save invest invest i'm like dude we need to go on holiday and have some fun like while we're young and we can still party till 5 a.m not like when we're old in wheelchairs so yeah and that's so interesting and you're best mates so that's that's really interesting isn't it he's just he's just my employer to be honest i wouldn't even say mates yeah yeah we yeah we're colleagues no we we have people in the comments but you're so mean to him yeah they don't know why they don't know why put me behind the scenes yeah he rinses me out all the time well so my sister was the opposite she was like a spender so I would sometimes and this is awful I mean I'm admitting to this like if she had a 2p I'd be like oh that 2p is bigger than my my you know you you could let's let's swap so we'd swap money sometimes and I'd be getting money that was you know more money than her essentially um but she didn't care because she would just be like oh yeah I've got this money I'm just going to spend it and we were just so different and people in life are different like that aren't they so it's the and so it can't necessarily be fixed on how your parents operated it's how your parents operated when you were in that formative period.

7:38And we're three years apart, but we're really different. Bringing that back to couples then, what are the common things that couples come in about? So sometimes they arrive because they feel like there's some sort of imbalance in their relationship. So just things aren't working for them. So perhaps if one person earns more than the other and they're still trying to do 50-50, or perhaps they've inherited some money on one side and they want to try and work through that. or just that the circumstances are changing. So, you know, they might be moving in together and want to do that in a really sort of empowering way and make sure that they've kind of checked everything down and they feel comfortable and confident to talk about money or they want to build a good way of communicating around money.

8:19So they want to, you know, create a structure that gives them the ability to really talk deeply about it. It's funny because this is a generalisation, but usually two people in a couple won't have the same attitude to risk. usually two people in a couple won't have the same sort of labels around whether you're a saver or a spender and you kind of use those labels almost to like blame each other for certain things so definitely whether it's a sibling relationship whether it's a couple relationship whatever the dynamic is and you get labeled something and then that label sticks on you until you sort of say I've had enough of that label I wish to change it like stop calling me that it's really bothering me and it's actually not helping with for me to change or be happy with who i am um so yeah in couples i think i generally notice in the space that one person would call themselves a spender and one person would call themselves a saver or one person would have like all their money in cash versus the other person in crypto and um you know having side hustles and businesses and you know just risk just the idea of risk just doesn't bother them um just explain my relationship

9:27I want my partner to send me like, what's our attitudes to money? And she sent me a voice note. She says, because we've got different backgrounds, she likes to save from her childhood. She always likes having a safety net. She says, I like to take risks. Some are great. Some are ridiculous, apparently. I mean, I think they're all great personally. She said, most of our money arguments are because she's very cautious and like, she just keep money in the bank. It likes to have a safety net. Whereas I keep telling her you need to invest. so her fear is of the investment going wrong and losing her safety net but she thinks the most important thing is to understand your different backgrounds and your habits and then come to like a happy medium so now she's investing more she still doesn't like taking risks but things like it depends on the type of investment so she doesn't want any crypto investments i love crypto investments but she's happy with the lisa investments we do the pension so it's just finding the the happy balance for both and she knows i'm still going to do risky investments but she want herself so we're very different it's just finding the middle ground you find that right do you find that like there's a counter balance so if one person t is risk on let's say that would it be fair to assume that his partner might then go the other way because they feel that they know they need to to counteract them they might not even be that way necessarily yeah and i think where it can go so that that you've just described sounds great you're meeting in the middle you're understanding how each other works so you're not trying to stop each other from being who you are, you're understanding and you're maybe countering each other's risk by one of you being tremendously safe and the other taking more risk.

10:56Where it can go wrong is if, you know, somebody's taking a really aggressive risk with family wealth that then they're not being open about so that maybe, you know, the other person doesn't actually know the risk that's being taken so if you imagine and I saw this a lot really in my background um where you know there were situations where the financial advisor would be seeing one person in the couple and not really the other so not necessarily taking both thoughts and circumstances into account um or when somebody just goes off and does their own thing and doesn't bring it to the relationship and talk about it um so if it's been hidden so if you're taking lots of risk and you're actually losing some money but you're you're not telling the other person because you're nervous and then you're chasing the um you know you're kind of chasing and taking even more risk because you don't want to be honest about the money that's been lost so trying to recoup it which is just obviously the worst space to be in and then that becomes very difficult from a communication perspective because more and more and more then just becomes hidden in the relationship and the person that's kind of not aware of what's going on is wondering why everything's become so stressful and the partner doesn't want to talk about money and is getting really stressed.

12:11But because they are holding some shame around it, they're not sharing. They're not really saying exactly what's going on. So that's where being opposite ends of the scale can go wrong when the communication fails. I got a scam for eight grand in crypto and it took like six months for me to tell her. You got all the stories, mate. Mate, I've been through it. But yeah, it was while we were doing the podcast. Sounds like she's been through it now. you've got to make sure your ladies battle tested mate put them through the hardships know that they're loyal um no but i've eventually told i eventually told her but those six months it was just like like you're like you said it's like the guilt the stress the shame you're like it's fine if i make this money back then i never have to tell her i'll be like oh look i made two grand instead of i lost eight grand but then eventually like once you tell them it's like oh the weight's gone and then you're like and they don't judge you as much like it happens like they're like thank you for what took you so long telling me so it's kind of like but i understand if you lost a lot more or like something that really affects like if you can't pay the rent for example it's you know the stress is gonna like outweigh exponential exactly that yeah so if one person is essentially taking control of everything and they do something that perhaps wasn't the right decision on reflection but they don't talk about it the other person is just totally in the dark um you know and is not aware of what's going on so i get what you're saying around that relief of suddenly saying okay i've lost eight grand like this is the reality of it and i understand as well why your partner might have been like, why is it taking you so many months to tell me?

13:37Because just you've been able to talk openly about that initially, I bet would have probably saved lots of arguments in the meantime where she didn't really know what was going on. A couple of these grey hairs that popped out. Yeah, a little bit of stress. Yeah, so it's the communication side of things that counts and being able to understand each other and work out how to move forwards. What's the catalyst for them coming forwards though? What suddenly changes in the relationship dynamic that means they go, okay let's go get help I think sometimes if um they just I occasionally get people coming to me where they are maybe ready to separate because the communication has become so bad and as soon as they kind of say the word money or anything that relates to it it just kicks off an argument you know so they're just not able to communicate with each other and other times I might get people who just want to align their goals or they just want to make sure that they're doing all the right things for the future they just want to kind of do a check-in and an overhaul and just make sure that they've got everything um in the best possible structure for them as a family or as a couple who's harder to help the person who thinks they're good with money and you know is the saver or the person who is not like is it harder to say to the saver actually you're the one that's kind of like the issue here versus the person who doesn't save i mean i would never say to somebody you're the issue here because i just don't believe i just don't think that that's ever the case i in the casino every day look it would be questions to help them to reflect on that you know because actually what i think about anybody is like none of it's nobody's business what i might think so i'm always keeping judgment out of my space and helping them to reflect on them so if you want to invest all of your money in crypto and leave absolutely no money spare and be living month to month not knowing if you're going to pay your rent if that works for you and that's what what what is right for you in your life, then that's your choice.

15:29But it's, you know, getting to a point where you understand that that's your choice and that that actually works for you. And having that level of exhilaration is actually something that you love about life, you know. So I don't think it's a situation where it's kind of telling anybody that what they're doing is right or wrong. It's giving them space to understand themselves first and foremost and then understand each other. Last time we recorded, Temein, you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm.

16:02They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes and yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much, yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp. It's a tech platform that makes self-assessment simple. Whether you're a self-employed like me, a freelancer or a director like Demo, big dog. Instead of sending endless emails, bills and spreadsheets to your accountant, you just connect your bank, answer a few questions that are only relevant to you, and your tax return can be ready in as little as 15 minutes.

16:35TaxApp is really easy to use and it's HMRC recognised software, so it's safe, secure and legit. The price is also decent, so if you're self-employed with one income stream it's just£89 as a one-off fee, no big accountancy fees and we also have a discount code of course. If you need to file a self-assessment this year, give TaxApp a try. We've left a link in the description and use the code money10 for 10 % off your first tax filing. That code is money, M-O-N-E-Y 1-0. So Mr. O 'Carolet, I hear you are a salesman. Elite salesman, yes. One of the best, they say? I've got a little bit of experience in the game, yeah, I could say.

17:11I've done a few deals. Bill, Bill. What would your compliance team say about you? They will say that I am always nagging them and that essentially I just have I have beef with compliance I love the team compliance slows down all my deals because every time I get to the finish line they've got to check documents KYC GDPR and it's just a nightmare it slows the deal down by like two three weeks it's always on both sides as well as sometimes it can be blocked on the other side exactly well that's where today's sponsor can help indeed Vanta helps companies of all sizes get secure and compliant fast and they stay that way.

17:46They do it by automating compliance with over 35 security and privacy frameworks like SOC 2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. Yeah, all of them. And this saves businesses so much time and money. According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers save over half a million dollars a year in costs. Not bad. And they also help you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster, which is great because everybody hates filling out forms. If you're a business that needs to prove security and compliance visit vanta.com forward slash making money to sign up for a completely free demo today that's vanta.com forward slash making money there's a link in the description though so you can just click that how does money work in your relationship hmm uh i i pay for everything yeah like because i earn more but it wasn't always the way so my partner used to earn a lot more than me and she would like pay a bigger share whereas now i just I just basically pay for most things.

18:45We're both self-employed and it's peaks and troughs, right? So, you know, it's not always going to be the case that her business is kicking. And I would like her to know that she does more for me in terms of like non-financial than I do the other way around. And I actually think like I get a pretty good deal. Do you know what I mean? It's nice for me to be able to pay for it all because a lot of the stuff she does, I'd be like, bloody hell, that's a lot of hard work. so like and what it's allowed me to do is like provide a quality of life for her and her son that that i think is like you know i'm proud of i'm proud to be a provider in that sense i was waiting for you to use that word i was gonna say do you enjoy paying because like when i do i'm like i don't pay oh i pay most of them but like i feel i'm providing i paid the rent i paid this bill like i'm providing for you guys i'm like here's like some money for your isa your license money for your sip like it as the as a bread like the main breadwinner if your partner's not working or they're earning less, you feel like your responsibility, it feels nice.

19:39A large part of my self-worth as a man is the surplus I generate and how many people survive off that. So I take great pride in the fact that I employ people. I take great pride in the fact that I look after my partner and her son. That is selfish. It makes me feel good about myself and my own insecurities about my inadequacy as a man or whatever that means. But yeah, I take great pleasure in like providing in that sense. And, you know, if she, but if she aren't the same amount as me, we would probably be 50-50, but we don't at the minute. So we don't, we could live a, we could live a life lower down and then she would be able to support that.

20:20I think she, there's probably a worry, isn't there? If I disappear for whatever reason, that the light, the quality of life that her son enjoys would drop. and I'm not it's not lavish but you know I pay for we pay for like him to go to clubs if he wants to learn drums you can do you know what I mean these kind of things Stropher driven with Bugatti to school every day but you know that's normal like it's fine only when the chopper's not available no I think all parents want to feel like they can provide for their kids and I feel like the downside of having such an income imbalance will be that you naturally feel like a parent like you are not providing is imagine is how I would imagine she might feel, which I think is like a hard thing.

21:02And do you ever sort of communicate around that with each other?

21:10So I try and make it clear to her that like, you know, I don't mind and that it's okay. But then no, probably not is the answer. We don't communicate around that. For me, my partner hasn't gone back to work since we've had our kid who's like two and a half now. so obviously it's she's not earning but um she has savings she's got like she loves her savings so she's got savings but it's even if she was earning i wouldn't say we split it 50 50 because she does so many things that help me do my job better uh like keeps her cooks for me like i eat a lot of home-cooked food um and she looks after our son and in west london kin nursery school that's 10 grand a year isn't it you know what i mean so like she's saving me thousands of pounds a month like it's probably around two grand in my area for um nursery school full-time and that's my rent so she's saving me my rent again by staying at home looking after our son feeding him like we're not paying for all these meals and stuff so um like there's a lot of value you can add without just adding money so like how cooking me food means i don't have to get takeaways save my money there i eat better i'm healthier her look after my son i have to go to he doesn't have to go to kindergarten so she wants to go back to work eventually but in the time she's not we're saving so much money so there are other things that partners can do that aren't necessarily like i'm paying these bills yeah but you're saving me four grand a month three grand a month so yeah there are i think about it not just in the um monetary sense but also like the emotional what do you call it happy holistic holistic yeah so there's a lot of value you can do like my son gets to spend time with his mom rather than some random teacher who doesn't care about him so he's gonna develop better so there are all these things that you can't really put money on in relationships.

22:49But then you get into this dangerous position of like, well, and I'm not saying this is where I am, but people can get there where it's like, you take out the bin because I pay for everything. Do you know what I mean? And it's like your role just, you like say, I'm not doing anything in the house. Yeah, because I pay for everything. And that's a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know what the balance is there. Like you should still contribute to the housework. You know, like you've got to do, you've got to pull your weight. It's partnering, isn't it? And it's kindness and it's paying attention and it's communicating when things feel out of balance for whatever reason.

23:19That might be from a monetary perspective. That might be because, you know, I'm literally noticing that you're doing absolutely everything. And actually, I just want you just to run me a bath or whatever it is. It's kind of feeling as though you are looking out for each other and you are able to talk about these things. So I think in a relationship, you can be assuming that somebody feels a certain way or assuming that somebody thinks a certain thing. but you're assuming and thinking that based on your life and what you've been through and your patterns. So that's where the communication is so important is asking the open question of, how do you actually feel about this?

23:53Do you feel nervous about this? Does this feel okay to you? You know, whatever the question is, it's just being able to ask the question and be there and properly listen to the response. And it might not be the response that you expect. And I think that's the biggest thing that's the biggest kind of um thing that people notice when they come and do this work as a couple is they will listen to the partner's response and they go i had no idea that you felt like that so you know in the example that you gave before about you know the lifestyle that you've chosen and the fact that that costs more than you know you wouldn't be able to go half in at the moment on that lifestyle that's something that you know you're taking responsibility for you might find if you ask some of those open questions with your partner that you know she might say actually I'd much rather we didn't have such big expenses because it bothers me that I'm not contributing the same way as you are or you might find that she says that's not even something that worries me I don't even care about it but it's just having that conversation because at the moment until you've asked the question you're just assuming what she thinks and she could be holding something about that that would be really important for her to be able to talk about you know something that I see in the space is when a person's able to open up and be really listen to around what's going on for them there is an a weight you can see it's like a physical thing that lifts in somebody and they suddenly it's just like wow I didn't need to hold that on my own anymore and my partner's just okay with me being honest about that it's just that ability to release and be totally honest um with somebody so a lot of the time that might be with me first so I have an initial session with each member of the couple first separately that allows them to just download everything so just say it all without being worried that they might upset the partner just get it all out the way sometimes that means they then go and have a really positive amazing conversation with each other because they've said it out loud to me and then they're ready to make up sex is amazing say again i said the makeup sex that was amazing i'm sure it would be extraordinary how many children are you responsible for maybe that's yeah maybe that's what i should be putting on the website improve your sex no i'm sure it does though more time for your book that's the slogan yeah brilliant okay i'll use it um okay that's where my brain's gone now i'm so sorry it's really highly inappropriate i'm made should we talk about a pencil case yeah No, I'm joking.

26:21Yeah. Where do we go? How do we talk that? So I think, yeah, one thing that like I struggle with in my relationship, right, is I am very solutions driven. So if there's a problem, let's fix it. Find a fix. And I just want to obsess over fixing it and get rid of it. Whereas my partner has this kind of like the emotion of it. Like I need to process the emotion of the thing. And me processing the emotion is finding a solution. Like, you know, there was this period where through COVID, her business got shut down because she's in the beauty industry. And that meant that she couldn't work because of the type of business she had.

27:03She got no support. So she ended up amassing debt. She didn't want to tell me about this. But because the debt payments were so high, they were still, you know, the debt was building. And when I found out, it was like, if you'd have told me six months ago, it would have been a much smaller problem. and now it's a bigger problem. And, you know, she, I was like, let's just get paid, let's get it sorted. And she wants to like talk about the emotion of the thing. Do you know what I mean? And I think that that's where we butt heads. I find a lot of, a lot, maybe I don't want to say it's a male, female thing, but I have another female friend who's like that.

27:35She'll bring a problem to me and I'll be like, right, this is how you fix it. She's like, no, no, I just want to talk about how I feel. And I'm like, let's fix it. Same argument, same argument. I'm like, I just want a solution. Yeah, I need the solution because that's going to stop me feeling that I'm like but let's just fix it I don't have time for that let's just fix it I've worked so um yeah yeah do you see what I mean like we've got like we're two like processes that butt heads and I can be seen as insensitive because I'm just like okay do this this this and this she's like I don't want to hear your solutions I just want to talk about how I feel yeah you know and if you took a step back and didn't come in with a solution do you think she would have created her own solution um maybe i don't know i mean i think with the example i gave like her solution was to ignore it and it didn't get any better until i was like what's going on and then the solution was i helped you know in that sense but in other circumstances probably you know she's very intelligent and highly capable so she probably would have come up with a solution herself yeah yeah because there's something around if you kind of almost solutionize or save someone or tell someone what to do it can sometimes just take away their power so it's just being careful of maybe just asking the question do you just want me to listen to you yeah or do you want me to ask you questions because if someone asks me for about a problem i think you're asking me for a solution not like you just want to talk to me about a problem yeah and i feel like that's also because of your experience the way we were raised working since we're both in sales so like the client's like oh i can't do this oh we need this and you're like don't worry i've got a solution here's what we do close the deal on to the next one so it's very like ingrained in us to find a solution or solve the problem yeah if i'm moving be efficient if i come to you about a problem i'm looking for your advice on it not like a event in place you know but that's great if you are looking for advice so if you were to say oh look i've got this problem can you just help me work through it can you tell me what you would do that's one thing if somebody comes to you and they just want to tell you about something they just want to talk it out get it out of their body start to think about their own the way that they would solve it that's different so it's just that thing around the check-in and i know that can feel really difficult because if it's a it's a habit of a lifetime what you're talking about if you've if you've always given advice to people if you've always kind of been that way of oh i'll just sort this out for you i'll just fix it like i'm a fixer i'll just fix it oldest of my siblings so i'm just like the wisest the wisest the uncle your uncle now i'm the cool young uncle i'm the og cool young uncle but yeah i'm always like yeah this is how you fix it oh don't do that do this yeah i'll come with you i'll drive you there don't i'll take you to the airport like i'll fix it you know so and it's that it's just that moment of check-in do you want me to give you my thoughts do you want me to tell you what to do or do you want me to help you to decide what you're going to do about it do you want to take control of this and just have my assistance or for me to ask questions so it's you know it's so powerful to just be able to listen to somebody yeah i think that's good advice you know do you want me do you want my advice or do you just want me to listen i want to come back to the split thing right what do you see is common amongst relationships that you encounter i see more than ever i see now where two people are um earning and then they decide how much they put jointly into a house account which pays for the majority of the kind of keeping the roof over the head stuff and then they keep you know their money quite separate for you know things that they want to spend separately to the running of the house essentially that's probably the most common setup that I see and sometimes people want to check in on whether what they're doing seems fair and there might be a few questions around that so if you've got one person that's earning substantially more than another person perhaps they make a bigger contribution into that central part and sometimes the questions might be you know if you are trying to do 50 50 and you've got two totally different incomes how fair is that on each person you know does one person feel um resentful or whatever it's just it's just about what works for um for the couple that i think is is the most important sometimes that strive to do 50 50 just really doesn't work and is just totally unfair it might keep you at a level where the other person's like i want to get a bigger house but i can't afford it you know because and that's what we were the position we were in it was I want a studio in the house from my YouTube.

31:52So if we're going to move up a step up the ladder, essentially, it's going to cost a lot of money. I'll do that. If it's 50-50, it's like my business suffers. Yeah, exactly. So it's that, it's being able to have those conversations. I'm earning more, therefore I'm happy to contribute more. That works for us. That feels fair. If you're bearing the weight of responsibility of all of your household costs, and then you're noticing that the other person is spending on things that you don't buy yourself because you can't afford because you're bearing that responsibility that's where resentment can come in so it's all about being able to communicate that you know instead of the backhanded all right i've noticed that we've had another winter party it's you know actually the reason why i'm even saying this is because i've seen something that i really want to buy and i noticed that i can't afford it this month but i'm noticing that you can so having that communication instead of the you know or people having to like hide parcels or is that new no no it's not new I've had it five years what you know about so it's that it's the it's the sort of you know whatever structure you've got it's checking in on it is that structure still working for both of us does it still feel fair is there anything going wrong with it and I think that's what you know creating a bit of a couple's date or a couple's money date structure is it's the ability to check back in on decisions that you might have made at a certain point when things are a certain way and then you have changes and and then you might want to do something different what's a money date so i guess uh going backwards first before going into to a date the way that i'd like to get people to work is that they think about the commitments first so they think about the why so think about the reason for actually even having a money date in the first place so what they actually both want to get out of it what they're looking to achieve what their goals are um and then thinking about where and when is good so sometimes people will come to me and they're like god my partner just wakes me up in the morning and the first thing they want to talk about is like money or there's a direct debit coming out and it stresses me out and it spoils my whole day so there's something in almost a communication of what works and what doesn't so what works in terms of you know this is the best time to catch me in a day or if we were to have a money day it'd be great if it could be on a Sunday afternoon because that's when I feel really relaxed or whatever that is but also what doesn't work well.

34:08So, you know, when you wake me up in the morning talking about money, that just spores my whole day and it means I'm really reactive. So yeah, what doesn't work? What triggers me? You know, when you talk about my mom, it really triggers me. Or when you talk about something to do with the kid, whatever it is. So it's almost stipulating what does good communication look like? What does bad communication look like? What's going to work? And how do we celebrate each other? Like that's a massive one. So in couples, we tend to celebrate each other in the way that we like to be celebrated and actually that might not be the way that our partner likes to be celebrated so you're there celebrating your partner and you're like why is she or he not happy with this celebration like it's you know i'm basically saying that they're amazing but actually they prefer to be celebrated in a completely different way so they prefer to be like taken out and made a big deal out of versus just told that was great or actually nothing at all just whatever it is your love language your love language it's like it's just what works and what doesn't so it's almost going really back to basics on communication first so that you can then start small so I would always say if you're starting to create money dates don't try and do everything all at once so don't try asking all the questions let's find out where everything is and let's start labeling each other or blaming each other for not being you know where you could be at this point in time or not having invested yet or whatever that looks like you want to go in really small so you want to just be sort of saying what's our one priority for this conversation what do we want to talk about let's keep it short let's celebrate at the end you know so that you can get into a process where it feels just safe and like a nice thing to do so you're kind of training your brain to talk about money because generally speaking you know people don't talk about it it's like the last thing on the list so it's celebrating the fact that you're starting to have 10 minutes or 20 minutes in the park on a walk wherever's best for you and you're starting to communicate what each of your priorities are what what worries you what you're really happy with like just starting to to talk about things and then you know we create a structure um in in couples work where they kind of build their own process so they then build what a date looks like and they you know do a little bit of prep beforehand so it's almost like going to, I mean, this makes it sound dull and awful, but you know, it's like how you might set an agenda, but it's useful because it means that both people are coming in with what is important to them as opposed to it generally being driven by the loudest person or it being driven by the person that knows the most or, you know, takes the reins.

36:44So it's that ability to both feed in and to really listen so to actually listen to listen not to listen to speak to listen to take it in um and there's lots of way there's lots of kind of learning skills that that we do in couples taught money that help people to properly listen to each other because that's such a big part of it because generally in in in life in the world we're just listening to speak um whereas listening to understand is a different level of listening and if you can do that in a relationship it's just awesome it just takes practice i got a mate um that like they pay like on a percentage basis based on what each other earns and he got a pay rise recently he was like don't tell her and he was like he was at the pub but he was just like i do enough and i pay for all the holidays and i've got like nothing for me and i'm feeling the pinch and i and he's like if that goes into the communal pot it gets spent whereas i will invest it for us and i'll buy like an investment or buy to let us talk up the pension whereas my partner would want to just go oh let's go to hawaii all inclusive and that so he's like hiding it because he's like it's the best thing but how would you advise then that he like you know some parts of i was in a relationship in the past where the other person had a really toxic relationship with spending money and it's like you have to hide the money so that they don't just blow it all it's that what you're saying having to hide things in a relationship it's how can you find a way to not do that so yes it's going to take communication yes it might take the support of a third party to be able to communicate but it's important that both people are heard so it's like I've had this pay rise I know that we've been talking about this holiday to Hawaii for the last two years and I know that's what you're going to want to do but I'm feeling a bit nervous about the future therefore I'm thinking about investing it can we just check in and talk about that because just the minute you start to hide things it's like a slippery slope because you know then imagine if the partner sees the pay slip or if it comes out in another way and they haven't shared that information or you know even a friendship breaks down the friend like says oh do you know he's hiding something from me it's that it's i think when you start to hide things like that i just think it's and it's not always bad things you hide like my partner she always used to be overdrawn and not tell me and then um and she wouldn't want to ask me for my style you're paying for loss i don't want to ask you for money i'm yeah, but if you tell me when you're about to go overdrawn, we don't have to give free money to the bank.

39:15They're charging like 15 quid a week or 20 quid a day or whatever it is, I don't know, with that bank. But I know that they're charging her like way too much. Well, you could just put like 100 quid in. I'll just give you 100 quid and you won't go overdrawn. So tell me when you get to like 20 quid in your bank so you don't have to go into your savings and you don't have to like go overdrawn. And then I'll just stop you and then we'll save money. It's our money, so I'm like, stop going overdrawn. And she did it again, did it again. Then we had a long talk. Now it's a rule, she will not go overdrawn.

39:38yeah it's not always a bad thing it can be you're hiding something to help your partner in the way you think it's helping them absolutely or like you think you don't want them to be disappointed or you don't want to be holding shame like whatever it is if you're thinking of hiding something it's like is it is this what i really want to do or do i want to try and have better communication do i want to actually talk about why i thought about hiding this you know like i thought about hiding this because i know we've been talking about going so i but you know whatever it is i think finding a way to have that openness or saying actually let's keep the structure as it is and if either of our income increases we're not going to talk about it that's fine too but I think hiding it on purpose is where it can become really difficult in a relationship but if you can be as honest as you possibly can that's just so beneficial and I think it's different stages of the relationship that honesty so even when I you know when you think about um if your partner is the main caregiver whether that's for children or family it's like making sure that they then have provisions for the pension you know like we see such a gap don't we between women and men still traditional you know traditional um relationships we see that women are retiring with like probably about 40 less than men because of that time out so it's how you readdress that type of balance um as well which can really come through in communication you know if you're sort of doing an annual review and saying this is what's where it's just kind of checking in on how does that feel for both of us you know does one of us want to really go back and seriously get back into work to be able to sort of cover their own shortfall and how do we address that in our relationship or in our family or in the child care or whatever that looks like making the partner understand as well it can be tax efficient for both people to be an equal footing right yeah at retirement you don't want one person with a million and the other with zero yeah better to have two pots of half a million yeah yeah and also you know what happens if you split up yeah um i think you know i would always want my partner to be okay i don't you know and i know that gets like convoluted in the process of a breakup but i know today like i would want her to be okay so it's worth like setting up those systems so that they are yeah what about when things happen that are like massive life events so there's a lot of money going to roll down from the the generations above us like so the boomers as they're called a lot of wealth is sat in that generation that's going to cascade down but not everyone's going to get it so it's reasonable to assume that you're going to have couples where one person inherits like a lot of money potentially seven figures and the other person gets nothing yeah what happens there and how do people manage that and the family pressures around that how does someone who's been given like a million quid from their parents that are now dead get comfortable with potentially sharing that money because it's like there's emotion both ways isn't there it's like they've my family have left me this and you know what do you think yeah especially if you feel like there's stipulations on that inheritance so you know if your family have always drummed into you that this is to be passed along the line almost forever so all you're doing is looking after this wealth it's not for you to spend or have fun with or to have the life that you choose it is to be preserved and kept for the next generation so it depends on the pattern it depends on what you've been told about that money before you receive it.

42:55And of course, if that then just comes into your relationship and you don't talk about it, then there might be an expectation from your partner. They might be like, oh, right. So obviously the mortgage is going to get paid off because you've had that million quid. Whereas, you know, if you haven't communicated that, you might be like, no, no, I was just going to put it straight into savings and investments and protect it for our children. And I was just happy that we were still 50-50 on the mortgage. But that's where the communication comes in, because generally speaking, you've got some sort of line of sight on an inheritance.

43:22there's generally some communication which depends on the family doesn't it you know and I think you can't always assume that there's going to be an inheritance sometimes you know people give it to charity sometimes people think I don't want the kids to have the responsibility of this wealth we'd rather put it you know into a foundation or give it to charity or something else so that is all in with the communication again you know having those conversations with um with your parents or with your grandparents and understanding what it is they want to do. I mean, to give a personal experience here, my grandma, when she passed away, she didn't have loads of money, but she had like, I think about a hundred thousand pounds in a bank account, but she'd always lived as though she was just completely about to go bankrupt.

44:11Her kind of, almost her mentality was like, oh, when we get this paid off or when we do this or when we do that, we'll be happy. Or, you know and she had sort of clothes and things in the um wardrobe that still had the tags on you know where she was like saving them for best and I just thought god I wish that she'd have just spent that money and enjoyed her life rather than it going to like my mum and and her two brothers um that she'd have just enjoyed that so I think you know whenever we have conversations I'm always like to my dad just you know i'm expecting nothing just enjoy have the life that you want to have you know but then it's it's being able to talk about it um you know because there's massive differences isn't it between leaving the money to be inherited or gifting whilst you're alive and there's just so much in the communication there you wanted to do a visualization with us i don't i don't know what that means or what we're doing but can we finish on that yeah that's okay yeah I don't have to stand up again, do I?

45:11No, you can see my shorts. No, you can see my shorts. These legs are bigger than you. No, they're not. You have a little knee strap on because they're bent in half, mate. Can't even hold your own weight up, mate, on them little sticks. Definitely couldn't hold your weight up on these little sticks, mate. I'm going to give you both a big piece of... Oh, it's a giant post-it note. Yeah, giant post-it note. Just stick down. Just in case you want to make any notes, because when I do this visualisation, because you're doing it together, and you can choose your own... Can I get a pen from the pencil case?

45:38You can choose your own pen. Thank you. So, yeah, I'll open them all so you can make your own selection. No copying my own. For people listening on audio, you've got an amazing pencil case. It's got pencil shadow. Yeah, there's a lot. Oh, there's even a suite there. You can get a suite if you wanted to. I didn't know that was in there. The pink tape as well. That's a surprise. You might want something that you're going to be able to see. Yeah, that's fair. I'm going. And what I'll do when I take you through this visualization, now when it's time, I will get you to close your eyes. And if anybody else in the room wants to do this, you're very welcome to, because it might be nice for just everybody to listen in and have a go at this particular visualization, just see what comes up.

46:15So what I will say is just don't judge what comes up for you. So just allow whatever to materialize, to materialize. Don't judge it. Don't lay any expectations. Just, you know, enjoy having the time with your eyes shut thinking about the questions that I ask you. and I'll start with a quick energy clear just to relax you and just to get rid of everything that we've just talked about. Are you ready? You look tired. No, I hadn't knew what you were. You know what it is? It's because I thought I'd come more fashionable, but this thing is so hot. Yeah. Like dying for fashion out here. But yeah, go for it.