Jim Lovell, space selfies and UK launch

26:43Sue Nelson:Beautiful detail and light. It's the light on it. I think that cover picture, you could imagine that on a movie poster, couldn't you? Yeah, so that was Peric. And the fact that it's Ed White and he's staring out of the window into the heavens. He's got the star chart above his head. And of course, it's a very poignant shot because, of course, Ed White, along with Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee later, were killed in the Apollo 1 fire. And I was grateful for Ed's son and daughter to allow me to use that on the cover. It's quite a poignant shot. Whenever I work on a documentary, I'm so absorbed by the subject that I start dreaming it.

27:23Sue Nelson:I start hearing the interviews again and again. I start dreaming about the subject because you are equally as absorbed in this project and with those images and you've said what you've wanted to do is be part of it and somehow go back. Have you not dreamt it? Have these images not made their way into your dreams? They never leave. You know, when I'm pros at them, I'm doing them all day, all evening, weekends to try and get, you know, they took 5 ,000 photographs. there's hours of 16 mil film and going through every single frame so particularly yes those poignant ones of these brave men that made these journeys and I'm reading the transcripts at the same time so I've got that context and that's what I want to do with the book is when you match the context to the visual that you become immersed in it is well it is just that it is very immersive and just reading the transcript even without the images I mean if anyone wants to learn more about these missions just go and read the transcript so almost everything that was said to each other when they were out of ground contract or with the ground during the missions was recorded on tape they were later transcribed and they were declassified in the late 70s and you can just go and read I've read every word of every single mission as I had to to research the book and I was reading them and I was I'd realized I'd suddenly let out a breath had been holding my breath I don't know for how long shoulders were tense I mean it's just the human drama that went on these missions is just incredible.

28:52And then, yeah, when you combine that with the imagery, I think it's quite a very powerful mix.

28:58Sue Nelson:So you've been into space, really? Yeah, I don't need to go. I couldn't go because I'm claustrophobic, but I don't need to go. Well, it's just as well then that they're in your own head. And they're not brave enough, to be quiet. You know, they were just, they were a different breed, weren't they? I mean, it's just... Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing it to us as well. with the sorry i have some gemini question questions because i love gemini i i just find i don't know what you know you've now immersed yourself in these missions and i've read just extracts from some of the the transcripts and just seeing your pictures have just made them the whole thing come alive so much more i've been lucky enough to interview astronauts about gemini missions i can't believe they happened and the things they did and like you're saying the space with Mike Collins, the Gene Cernan one went wrong as well.

29:50I mean, Neil Armstrong almost died. I mean, almost every mission, something almost went fatally wrong. Yeah, yeah. And the speed that they progressed as well, you know, there was 10 missions in 20 months. They were launching a rocket, and within days, they were erecting the next ready to go. And, yeah, they were just pushing the boundaries on every single mission. And it is just extraordinary. When we see through today's health and safety lens, I mean what they were doing was was bonkers really and we were very lucky I mean I was in touch with uh Gene Cranston in the the research and he said you know it was often just blind luck that they got home like he's mentioned Neil Armstrong and Dave Scott almost died Gene Cernan quite right should have died on that EVA what went on there is just extraordinary yet Michael Collins going back to the Mercury days John Glenn had just been told his heat shield may have come loose so he may well burn up in the atmosphere during re-entry and i've managed to find you match the the transcripts and all the other information i can find to find that moment so there's an image in the book of him in that moment as you know there's 3 000 degree fahrenheit heat 12 inches from his back there's a bit of an orange glow you can see in the capsule and he's just there kind of holding steadfast not knowing if he's you know about to burn up in in the atmosphere it's just a portrait of that courage every mission something went wrong but they can continue to push the boundaries these evas again reading the transcripts they for example on gemini four so the first spacewalk jim mcdivott would say ed where are you i can't i can't see you and he'd say well i'm at the back near the adapter section uh don't fire the thrusters because i'm right near them and mcdivott saying well i need to fire them because you're you know moving the spacecraft around by all your movements affecting the platform and white said okay i'll just move out of the way okay i'm out of the way now you can fire the thrusters and then on michael collins on on gemini 10 he was at the same situation but collins couldn't think which thruster he was near because he's he's tumbling around and again he's close to thruster he said don't thrust now particularly that bad thruster and john young says what do you mean the bad thruster he said you know the one that that squirts up because he couldn't think what number it was and John Young says, oh, do you mean thruster number 16?

32:11And Michael Gannon's thinking, well, I don't know which number it is. Just don't, you know, if that thruster fires, it goes with a space suit and it's instant death. But, you know, what is not the most effective critical control measure, is it, to make sure you don't die, is to just chat to each other and say, oh, by the way, do not fire your thrusters. But I love this, the rawness of these missions. That's something that I love. And these are stories that people don't realise. And people think, you know, how do we manage to get to the moon? A lot of people think that we just, right, we decide there's an Apollo 11 and Neil Armstrong is the only man that's walked on the moon.

32:46But Gemini, these forgotten missions, were where all those developments, all those techniques required to be able to reach for the moon, this is where it happened, this was the training ground. And they had to go through all of this pain and take all of these risks in order to then reach for the moon on the Apollo programme.

33:03Sue Nelson:Andy Saunders, whose latest book is called Gemini and Mercury Remastered. And I think our review, it was within that interview, really. It's just, it is superb. Just extraordinary insight into those missions. And also, he was very keen to point out that, you know, it's not just about the photographs. There's a lot of text there. and that is is what makes it as well actually in terms of the fact that he's put those photographs together with what was said at the time and you get the story of it beneath so it's it's far more than a coffee table book yeah i think there's a lot of information in there and insight and you do feel as if you're reliving the missions yes because there are there have been a lot of picture books if you like of the moon landing so they and they're great and they're good in any way but it needs to be put in context and i think that's what he does really really well well in a moment we'll jump to the future and hear from the two companies hoping to be the first to launch from the uk but this is space boffins and we're in partnership with the naked scientists you can reach us on facebook instagram and via x and you can also email us podcast at It's spaceboffins.com.

34:22Sue Nelson:Or, as we often say, send us a card, a postcard. But guess what? That's something that Don in Buffalo, New York has done. Have you got it, Rich? It's beautiful. It's got a lovely rocket, like a retro rocket. It's a lovely retro rocket on the top. On the front. It's not so much a postcard, but it's a beautiful piece of artwork card. Yeah, it's a made in USA card. 100 % recycled. Good. But it will sit on the desk. And it's a lovely message in it as well. It is. So I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I'll read a little bit because, you know, we like being told how wonderful we are. Always love your show.

35:01And I particularly enjoyed your recent one with Bruce McCandless III and Emily Carney talking about their book Starbound. And I really like the highlighted Dave Giles' song, The Last Man on the Moon.

35:15Sue Nelson:And we played a bit of that, didn't we? We did. It's one of my favourite space songs. If you haven't heard the story behind the genesis of that song, you should have a beer with him someday and have him share it with you. Well, we will do that. I think we will definitely do that. I also have a plan. I mean, maybe if I say it now, it might actually happen with Dave. Yeah. So for reasons I won't go into, we have a Mixcloud account. Mixcloud enables you to put music out, like Spotify, as you can actually do a radio show on Mixcloud. so I've been talking to Dave and we talked about this about three years ago I think originally of doing a music show a Spaceboffins music show music special at Christmas maybe What about copyright?

35:59No, that's the whole point of Mixcloud so you can actually play commercial music because they take care of their royalties I'm so behind on all this But we have a subscription because a radio program we made a while back we still have the subscription

36:12Sue Nelson:I'll leave that to you because you're the one who listens to music I just read Yeah. So I think it'd be quite fun. I mean, it might be that no one listens and it's just our own self-indulgence. Yeah. Well, remember we did that show. With Samantha Christopher. Samantha Christopher, a European astronaut who was our presenter. Which is also on Mixcloud. So that's on Mixcloud. Oh, that's on Mixcloud. Because that was a lot of space-related music, wasn't it? Yeah, exactly. That was for some, like, United Nations environmental thing. I can't even remember. No, I can't either. But it was good fun. It was good fun.

36:45Sue Nelson:And she enjoyed it. And it's a really good show. I listened to it a little bit. I found it the other day. So it is on Mixcloud. I can't tell you what it was called, though. But if you look up Samantha Cristoveretti on Mixcloud, I think it's probably the only show she's ever done. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, there you go. Thanks to the UK Space Agency, I was able to be at the UK Space Conference this year, where we recorded the Supermassive podcast with astronauts, and I gathered a whole load of interviews for space boffins. We're going to hear now about one of the most exciting developments in the UK space sector in recent years, launch.

37:21Sue Nelson:Earlier this month, the UK Civil Aviation Authority granted the first ever vertical launch licence to a UK company. Glasgow-based Skyrora has been licensed to launch and operate its suborbital Skylark L vehicle from the CAA licensed spaceport at Saxevoord in the Shetland Islands off the Scottish coast. Meanwhile, Orbex, which has its HQ near Inverness, also plans to launch its first rocket in the coming months. Now, it's among five launch companies shortlisted by the European Space Agency to take part in the European Launcher Challenge, which supports the development of new launchers. Well, one of these companies could be the first to launch into orbit from Europe.

38:11We'll hear from Orbex in a moment. First, Derek Harris, head of business development at Skyrora. It's rocket's based on Britain's first launcher, Black Arrow, which launched the Prospero satellite from Australia in 1971. I asked him to tell us about the launchers they're developing. We have two that are really there. So we have Skylarkel, the first of which we launched in 2021 out of Iceland. And we are hoping to launch the other one from the UK in the near future. It's only about 11 metres tall, suborbital, and has around a 50 kilo payload capacity. But the main workhorse that we have at the moment will be Xcel.

38:54It will be due to launch in around Q426, possibly Q127, depending on licensing. but it can take up to 315 kilograms to sun synchronous and polar orbits. How much of the technology is new, is developed in the UK? That's a great question. When you say is it new, because our program really harks back to Black Arrow, we use the same high-test peroxide and kerosene mixes that they did. So there are a lot of similarities with the engines but I think what the biggest thing is the technology around how they're being produced with the 3D printing and things instead of sort of being hand chiseled out as such.

39:34So there's a huge similarities going back to the historical launches that the UK used to actually take part in. And is that important to you and to the company that it has that connection to the UK's first successful launcher? Oh, very much so. One of my first jobs with Skyroda was to actually locate Black Arrow in Woomera and talk with the locals over there. so what happened is we negotiated to bring it back to the UK by basically building them a new sort of town hall that they could use. From then we had a little bit of a show with it in Edinburgh and then we actually passed it down to the Farmer Air and Space Transport Museum and we're currently working with the other museum at the moment to see about getting it completely properly, not restored but looked after so it doesn't get in any worse condition for that purpose.

40:26So it's very important that that heritage lived on and there is a small section which turned out not to be from R3, which was R2, which we actually keep in the workshop. So as soon as our team goes through to do their day-to-day job, they see what they're building on, the grandfather of the company. So we take that quite seriously, that heritage, and it's something I think drives a lot of the team forward. And this is an unflown, presumably, Black Arrow that could have flown? No, no, these are both parts that have flown. So the R3 was the one that actually launched Prospero, and that's one that's currently in the museum and an R2 was one that had a it took off but I don't think was as successful as R3.

41:06It's almost like picking up from where that they left off. Well if you look back into what the 1971 I think it was was the last launch we actually had the perfect small launcher we were 50 years ahead of our time in that regard so sometimes they say don't reinvent the wheel which makes sense but when you've got new technology to make that wheel easier That's what you do, and really that's what Skyroda's been doing, is developing the technologies alongside it to make it better so it can be faster, stronger, cheaper, but agile and adaptable as well. When you're developing this, you know, and in fact you mentioned a failure there, that a lot of rockets fail on the first attempt, second attempt, sometimes more than that.

41:51How many failures are sort of built into what you're planning? From our planning purposes, we've looked at at least a minimum of three demonstrators as the minimum plan so far. We're lucky to be well funded from our owners who own the company as we're private. That was the plan from day one was to at least a minimum of three attempts of the full launcher. But now, because we've diversified our business case, which has allowed us to have other funding coming in, that's allowed us to say, well, we know we've got that minimum of three there, so we can continue going until hopefully we get it right.

42:23But touch wood, as you say, no one's done it first time. Could we break that record? I think that was the whole idea around the build-up approach. So using Skylarkel as a test vehicle, the second one of that. So I think when we first talked, the first one was like 33 % and then 66%. And because we've done this iteration process of it, we're hoping that will put us up in a higher level of success rate. But as you said, it could be first time, second time. But I'm sure we'll get it before third time, that's for sure. and what's the potential of this because i mean you're not alone there's also orbex there are also potential other horizontal launches in the pipeline there obviously must be a market for launching from the uk we know there's a market for small satellites can you get the price point right though because everyone at the moment it's just basically going with spacex well i think that's it so we have never tried to compete on price for spacex and my background being non-engineering, non-space, has actually tried to put our customers at the heart and the focus of this.

43:27I like to steal lines and you'll hear this, so we're reassuringly expensive. Wasn't that a beer? It very much was. Stellar toit, I believe. But the whole thing is to have that customer at the heart of that mission. So instead of going with SpaceX and making yourself for that last mile, our third stage will take you that last mile. It will put you there. we do expect our price point to come down as we start to go into mass production but so far the price point that we're sitting at has actually not really batted too much eyelids of a lot of people which has been nice to see so we i can't say that we are going to be outpriced by spacex because we're really coming alongside the rocket lab model that way now i spoke to a small satellite company spaceforge we've spoken to them twice on the podcast they're massively into sci-fi references geeky references they control their satellite from the the sat cave you've gone one better you've you've covered yourself in tattoos that are completely geeky yeah very much so so everyone laughs and they're like oh you must be so into space and things i'm like it wasn't when i grew up sort of thing i was never a man that wanted to be an astronaut i wanted to be a ghostbuster if i'm honest and that kind of led into my fascination with comics and your reference to being covered in tattoos yeah I'm covered in Marvel tattoos from Deadpool Gambit and then the other side I've got sort of Godzilla and King Kong things like this so really I love a particularly boring life when I'm not working I go out to the football with my dad I don't really drink I don't smoke I play video games and read comics so it was a hobby I picked up when I was 18 and I kind of ended up spreading let's say that it sounds like a pretty good life to me pretty much I'm in a good position so I can't moan too much as I say it.

45:17I think my wife would prefer if I didn't spend as much getting tattooed and spend a bit more time at home walking the dogs. So we'll see how that goes.

45:24Sue Nelson:Derek Harris and his tattoos from launch company Skyrora. Well next John Bone, he's the Chief Commercial Officer for Orbex. They're also developing two different types of launcher. We will be initially launching a micro launcher called Prime from Scotland. It can take up to 200 kilograms into low earth orbit. So we'll be launching that from Saxoford next year. And then we'll be ramping up the cadence of that, doing more launches per year as we go through. And the recent news, of course, is that we've just been pre-selected for the European Launcher Challenge from the European Space Agency, which is great news.

46:03We're all excited about that. And as part of that program, we'll be further developing our prime vehicle, but also looking to develop a much larger vehicle. So the goal of the European Launcher Challenge is to look at giving Europe more resilience, more competitiveness, both within Europe and outside of Europe at a global level. So what we've done, we've analysed the market and seen where the gaps are. One of the major gaps that was left the Ukraine war was the Russian Soyuz vehicle. So Russian Soyuz vehicle was used for many European launches. I think it launched most of OneWeb, for example. So we've identified that as a bit of a gap.

46:45The vehicle that we've got looking to develop as part of that European launch challenge is called Proxima. And we're stepping up from 200 kilograms all the way to four and a half tons. Humans have been building rockets, well, for hundreds of years, the first orbital rocket in 1957. You're starting from scratch, or presumably you could look back and say, well, don't do it this way, do it this way. But, I mean, what is the challenge of starting a new project like this? There were a number of design choices made, and a lot of those design choices were around sustainability, and sustainability of space, but also sustainability of the environment.

47:25So we made a key design choice early on to use propane, biopropane, rather than the usual RP1 kerosene type of fuel, which is used in SpaceX Falcon 9, for example. And the main reason for that was to reduce the amount of emissions. We had a study done by Exeter University to calculate for Prime, our micro launcher, if using propane, what is the difference between a propane vehicle and a kerosene vehicle? And they calculated it was 96 % less emitting of carbon. Wow. So is that a selling point for you then? Would that make a difference in the market that you can say that actually this is a more sustainable way to launch the space?

48:07This is more environmentally friendly. Because, I mean, rockets, you could only make them so environmentally friendly. We like to think it was a selling point. And I think with movements now, there's the EU Space Act, which will only be enacted until 2030, looking at more about the sustainable use of space. I think in the past, when there was a few launches per year, nobody really minded that much. But with SpaceX launching two or three launches per week, when you're launching that frequently, we have to understand what that is doing to the planet. So from our perspective, choosing propane was that first step.

48:43It's not been, let's say, an easy choice for us. You mentioned how difficult it is to create a lot of effort. Well, by choosing that, we also chose a structure for our tanking system, which instead of stacking the tanks like everybody else is doing, we use a coaxial system. So it's a tank within a tank within a tank, which has its own problems, but it has its own benefits. So it reduces mass, it's all carbon fibre. but also it helps in the propellant and the engine. So, for example, not that this helps, but all our engines are 3D printed. So we're using sort of more, let's say, modern approaches to construct the vehicle.

49:23So, yes, these vehicles have been built since 1957, but they've been built in a particular way. And what we were focusing on was, yes, sustainability with the fuel, but also reducing mass. This is a micro launcher, so we need to make it as low a mass as possible to get as much payload on there as possible for the propellants that we have. Given all the innovation, how many failures can you afford? Because we have seen companies come and go, Virgin Orbit, the most recent UK example, where it's just disappeared. I mean, it seemed extraordinary. I went around the factory. They were doing 3D printing.

49:57They were doing all these things. Big-scale operation. A failure completely lost the company. Yeah, I think with any organization, with any launch organization, you have to cope with what you call failure. I mean, I think, you know, the recent launch of ISAR, for example, okay, it didn't get into orbit. It got off the pad and they got 40-odd seconds of really good data. And they managed to test the flight termination system, which is crucial for safety. So from the point of view of success, it depends what you measure success with. But you factor that in is what I mean. You know, if it doesn't quite work the first time, you've got that factored in.

50:31Absolutely. You have to as an organisation, as a commercial organisation, make sure that you can manage for those setbacks. But ultimately, the goal is provide that rapid access to space, the regular cadence of these launches from UK soil. And can you take on SpaceX in that respect? Because I've spoken to, I won't mention the company, I spoke to a company the other day that makes satellites. They always go with SpaceX because it's the cheapest option. They don't want to always go with SpaceX, but they always go with SpaceX. Yeah, I think there's two things to say about that as well. One is, if you don't care where your satellite particularly is, if polar orbit, 550 kilometers, 10.30 in the morning, and you want to get the cheapest one, go with SpaceX.

51:19We can't compete with that at the moment with Prime. What Prime gives you, the smaller vehicle, is if you need to go into precise orbit at a precise time of day or precise inclination or precise altitude, then we can put you where you want to be. So it's a sort of bus analogy rather than the taxi analogy. So you bus, you can jump on it, you get off, you have to walk to wherever you want to be. With the prime vehicle, it's more of the taxi analogy. You call a taxi when you want it. It takes you to where you want to be, exactly where you'll be, when you want it. So it's that sort of analogy. With Proxima, it's a different situation.

51:53so as we step up to that larger vehicle we've designed it and modeled it and commercially modeled it in terms of the business model so we can be globally competitive so from the point of view of having both vehicles we have the taxi service and we have the bus service so if you want to deploy a big constellation you can use proximate to deploy it if you need to replenish it and particular satellites in particular orbits you can then use prime to do that and i think that's actually a unique service. Even SpaceX doesn't have. John Bone from Orbex. Well, you've heard the pitches from both companies.

52:30Let's get an overview of where we are in terms of launch from the UK with Emily Dynely. She's the head of international engagement for the launch team at the UK Space Agency. I asked her if there was enough business for several launch companies. I think the global small satellite market really like data we've seen from a number of different sources, it presents substantial growth opportunities. So lots of different forecasts showing that not only has that grown significantly over the last few years, but projected to do so significantly more over the next few years. And European demand for satellite is forecasted to be worth up to 50 billion.

53:07You know, there's forecast to be kind of per year, hundreds of satellites launching. I think from a UK perspective, different companies are developing different vehicles and services, and that's to serve different market segments. There's different selling points from different customer types, different types of payloads, suborbital launch, orbital launch. So, you know, whilst I think the UK offer is not ever been kind of designed to compete with the likes of SpaceX for that kind of very large launch ride share, there's definitely different market segments and niches that different companies can target.

53:41And what we're seeing is that that's what they're doing. Would this be a market for the whole of Europe, if you like, all the satellite manufacturers potentially could consider the UK as a launch site? Yeah, I mean, in terms of our international engagement, we very much want to kind of position the UK's launch capabilities as being something that can contribute to Europe's access to space and to global access to space. So looking at both the commercial, the institutional and defence and security markets. I mean, there was all this excitement building up to Virgin Orbit. Are you concerned, though, that we just have a repeat of that, that these companies or companies could just come and go?

54:21I think in short, no. The Virgin Orbit launch in 2023, that demonstrated that launch is possible in the UK. It was a culmination of a huge amount of work on the legislation, the safety licensing, international agreements, also all the operational cooperation between all the different parties. And that brought a lot of valuable lessons on the operational requirements and the challenges of space launch. But there are some really important differences with the launch companies that are preparing to launch in the next 12 to 18 months. So their launch technology services, one very important difference is that whereas Virgin Orbit use what's called a horizontal launch system from an aircraft, launches from Saxeville will use vertical ground launch technologies.

55:05I think, of course, with any space launch, there are challenges with doing first test launches with any launch system and any spaceport. But very valuable progress and learning comes from each test launch for those companies. But I don't think it's really relevant to talk about comparing or kind of a repeat of that event in 2023. What about horizontal launch? I mean, is there still potential for that from the UK? I think it very much depends on the customer relationships and the demand that's there. Because what Spaceport Cornwall did was to kind of showcase what is possible, what's feasible and operational to gain the license for that.

55:42And then going forward, it's really about whether there's kind of the business model and the customer demand for doing that. So I think that's to be seen. What's the role of the space agency here? I mean, do you see yourselves as sort of enablers of this? Or is there a wider geopolitical benefit of having launched from the UK, from Europe? Overall, in terms of kind of the government ambition, we want to see the UK become a European leader in small satellite launch. We want to see that development of your launch capabilities continue that brings benefits to communities across the UK. Very much looking forward to seeing those first vertical launches taking place in the not too distant future and to kind of the continued growth of the different sites and companies.

56:24But yes, of course, it's important to be part of those programmes on the international stage as well. So the UK plays a really active role in the European Space Agency. And we're also part of what is now a new NATO programme, the StarLift programme, which is again, looking at kind of cooperation on launch activities across NATO allies. What sort of timetable are we talking about here? I mean, it's always a loaded question. Do you mean in terms of those first launch attempts? What sort of timetable are we sort of looking at in terms of when we might see the first launch or the next launch attempt?

56:56Yeah, well, I think we always take our cue from the companies that are working on developing those capabilities, they're the ones kind of putting the infrastructure and the operations and the technology in place. So in terms of first launch attempts, Rocket Factory Augsburg, we understand, is still working towards a first launch attempt this year. But obviously, as we know, for all first launch attempts, there are kind of a significant number of uncertainties in terms of specific dates around airspace windows and weather windows and all sorts of things, and also kind of testing milestones that have to be gone through, then I think we're looking forward to across the next sort of 12 to 18 months, you know, hopefully further first launch attempts from other companies, Orbex, Skyrora, High Impulse, the German company that also has plans to launch from Saxavord and, you know, hopefully further launch attempts from Rocket Factory Augsburg as well.

57:47Pretty exciting though. Yeah, we're going into undoubtedly kind of an exciting period in terms of hopefully fairly close to that first launch attempt now or first vertical launch attempt, shall I say. Yeah, it will be really positive to see that operational progress made. Emily Dynely from the UK Space Agency looking ahead to the first possible launch from Scotland next year. It is genuinely exciting. She was trying not to say exciting too many times.

58:16Sue Nelson:It is exciting, but it does feel like we've been on tenterhooks and on the verge of this excitement for a long time. And I know that's the nature of space and emissions in general. You cannot think, oh, yes, it's going to launch in March next year because we know that it's likely to be delayed and these things take time. But I do feel as though I've been waiting for it for a very, very long time. But it does feel as if a sort of critical mass has been achieved finally. And that now it's not just talk, it's action. There's solid, you know, methods and infrastructure and everything is getting in place.

59:06Sue Nelson:And that I feel now like, you know, they all do. This is going to happen and it's going to happen soon and it's going to be very exciting. I do slightly worry that everyone will be so excited about it. But when they go to see the launch, they'll just be like, oh, yes, like a big firework. Because it's not going to be like, you know, a massive launch from Florida or anything like that. But it's still going to be quite good. I mean, I have to say that, you know, the second launcher that we heard about from Orbex, I mean, you know, If it's on a par with Soyuz, that is a substantial, that will be a substantial rocket.

59:43Sue Nelson:Will they let you, like the Russians, you know, just stand around within a couple of hundred meters smoking a fag? I very much doubt that. Also, whether that would launch from Scotland, it's a sort of, I mean, you know, they have actually a Soyuz size launch pad in French Guiana for Soyuz. Oh, yes, yes. So, you know, it would perhaps make sense if it went from there. But, I mean, I can't speak for these companies. I think, you know, it has been going. You know, Launch UK was launched in 2017. So, you know, eight years ago, you know, quite a long time ago. There was a lot of hype at the time. What I feel, I agree with you, there's sufficient momentum now.

1:00:22There are sufficient number of companies as well. We're not just pinned on one company like Virgin Orbit.

1:00:28Sue Nelson:Yeah, which obviously was mentioned in those two interviews. Yeah, which we talked about. There are several companies here. You know, if one doesn't make it, there's a good chance another will. But, you know, they all say they've got a number of failures planned in to their system. So, you know, let's hope it all happens. Yeah. And as we've discovered with NASA recently, you never quite know what is going to happen. And it can come from unexpected places. And you and I sort of touched on this in previous podcasts. You know, we never thought that the sort of, not demise of NASA, but it definitely sort of decreasing and shrinking of NASA would come from its own government, considering it's often being considered a jewel in the crown.

1:01:20And so it was quite heartening to see that recent letter that was signed by a number of NASA bigwigs. Yes, so basically it's all the surviving heads of science at NASA.

1:01:33Sue Nelson:Including our friend Thomas Zabirkin. Thomas Zabirkin, we heard from in June. So this was the letter that went to the House Appropriations Committee in the States. Pretty strongly worded letter. You can find it online. It talks about, you know, if these sort of cuts happen, it would cede US leadership in space and science to China. It's quite a big warning about what that China will effectively overtake the US. US. It talks about, you know, as you've just said, Sue, investments in NASA science have been and are a powerful driver of the US economy and technological leadership. I mean, I could go on.

1:02:14I've highlighted various bits in here. An interesting line, you know, it's again highlighting China. The Chinese space science programme is aggressive, ambitious and well-funded.

1:02:24Sue Nelson:The bit I like, can I just give me that letter? Because there was a bit that I know you hadn't highlighted it, but it was this line really sort of touched me. As former stewards of NASA science programmes, we have also seen the power of these programmes to inspire and motivate bright minds from all corners of the nation and around the world. And I think that's so true. Reading, it's like a week doesn't go by where I haven't read, oh, this science centre that's associated with NASA is going to close. And those science centres have massive programmes with local schools, local colleges. You know, I did just like many people don't get it.

1:03:10Sue Nelson:I don't get it. And I think for me, it's that thing. It's the motivation and the inspiration as well as the sort of world class science and engineering that goes on there. And it is, it's like your brain, you use it or lose it. If you stop using it, you will lose it and you will lose your position in the world as what is at the moment the world's leading space nation and agency. And yeah, that doesn't mean other countries aren't going to get there and do really well. They will. But it's just a shock to see it crumble at the directions of its own president. It does seem absolutely extraordinary.

1:03:54Sue Nelson:Yes, I know some people might argue, well, you'll get all these private companies, but then they've always worked with NASA anyway. There's always been private business. So I don't see it as a sort of competition. But, you know, if anybody here is listening, because we know we have lots of listeners in the States, if you are Republican leaning and you see the benefits of this, get in touch. Yeah, let us know. Because it's really interesting. We'd like to hear some counter arguments. We're not saying we're not closed minded enough to listen to the benefits. We just genuinely, as Brits here, we don't get it when you have something that wonderful.

1:04:31Sue Nelson:Where are the positives here? Please do, yeah, get in touch. Let us know. we will not ridicule you in any way we genuinely want to dialogue about this because it is important and it's that's something that i think is genuinely needed is no matter what your politics always have a dialogue in the running order i've written comments on podcast i don't know what that means do you want to comment on the podcast yeah i think that went rather well yeah about that there we go that's great uh that is space boffins for august yes i know it's september but that's for august we work in a parallel universe where time and space are concepts in a black hole the edge of a black hole there we go yeah that would be it yeah a quick shout out to emma who's in the studio with us who's on work experience here hello say hi there we go uh do get in touch via social media email post pigeon whatever uh we'll be back next month or thereabouts you say post a pigeon no not post a pigeon by post or pigeon it just i just had this in my mind please don't post a pigeon no please don't post a pigeon now i can see it no please don't post a little stamp on its breast it's wearing a helmet if you want yeah don't send a pigeon i mean i shouldn't have put Fair enough, do not send anything by pigeon.

1:05:55Sue Nelson:Please do. Don't. Be like World War II, secret messages and everything. No, we don't want secret messages by pigeon. I'd love a little scroll, a scroll by pigeon. I'm happy with postcards and cards. Well, my grandparents in Liverpool, next door, they kept pigeons. And I used to love going in the back garden and just seeing them all, you know, whirring around the sky and then all coming back together and cooing yeah it is i mean yeah yeah pigeons are amazing pigeons no uh do what don did and send us a card or a postcard with a pigeon on no uh we'll be back next month thanks for listening cool cool from lashes for days with the viral liquid lash extensions mascara to lift and color from the brilliant eye brightener.

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