100% Sobriety, Male Loneliness, and Healing Parental Wounds | Karamo Brown

23:52It is okay. And it is okay if they have pushback. Their pushback does not mean that your ability to be open and vulnerable was wrong. Their pushback just means they're not ready to grow. and you have to make sure you keep that framing in your head because like i think about some of the people in my 20s that if i would have given up there might have been roads i went down that i didn't need to go down i remember the first time my friend brought cocaine to my house i had never seen cocaine okay how old are you i am 25 25 26 yeah it was right before i became a father so it's somewhere around that point and i was like this is not cocaine like what is this i was like We don't know anybody that does cocaine.

24:34He was like, this is cocaine. And I was like, no, it's not. And so I took the bag like a movie and stuck my finger in it and put it around my gums. Don't know why. It's because I just saw it in movies. Yeah, yeah, sure. When he put that in there, I should have said, dude, get out of my room. Yeah. And there had been a pattern of him exposing me to things - That weren't healthy. That weren't healthy. Yeah. That I never evaluated, I never checked in the beginning. And so it became a pattern for us that he exposes me, we trip out, we were like, my God, this is crazy. And I sort of follow the path.

25:09And it was weird for me because I was considered a leader. I was a leader and I still allowed it. And I always think back like, damn, I saw the pattern. I saw where it was leading, I knew it. I remember the first time he said, let's hop this fence to sneak into a club. I remember the first time he said, all these things that always could have led to danger could have led to something. And I wish that I knew what I knew now. I'm thankful for the lessons because it's brought me here. But I could have evaluated those patterns better and had maybe a different option for certain things. So we're both dads, as I hear this, I mean, my son's 11, yours is 30.

25:42Yeah. A little bit different ages, but how do we help our kids recognize these patterns? Yeah. And know how to say no? For me, it's a constant conversation. If you were reparenting yourself, how would you do it? So I would do it the same way that I do it with my son. Okay. I tell him that right now, and it's so great because I'm proud of him of how he is with his friends and what he does and how he manages them, is that I tell him that he has to evaluate his friendships monthly. This is a friendship audit monthly. I haven't heard this on the show. It's the most important thing you can do. Friendship audit.

26:22Every month. And again, this is not talking about they don't, whatever. like the silly things that people sometimes break friendships over. You're auditing the patterns. You're auditing the history. You're saying, is there a pattern of you doing something negative, pushing me down, not helping me grow? And you balance that against, just like an audit, you balance the good against the bad. And write it down on a list. See it in front of you. Don't just have it in your mind. And I will see my son. I've seen him doing this in 17 where he'll walk in the house and he'll be like, they told me to call my girlfriend out of her name.

26:56They told me to do something, you know? and like that was a big thing for him because he was in a long-term relationship and when they would have an argument his friends would be like oh fuck that hoe and he had taught learn from me you don't say that you don't say those things just because no matter what because you're in a disagreement doesn't mean you now have to disrespect someone especially someone you said you loved yeah not a point and so he would write that down i would see him being like uh they told me to disrespect someone and it's like little things like that like it just seems casual in the moment but by doing that monthly audit of your friendships, you see who's really in your corner and who's not, who's there for your growth, who's not.

27:30And it's the thing that I would tell my 20 year old self to do consistently. And if you do that, I think that you have a more happier and successful life. That's I no one's ever talked to me about the friendship audit, but I'm going to apply that in my own life and definitely share that with my kids. And it made me think of something that I recently learned in therapy and that was that when i find that i am consistently making excuses for a friend oh yeah then that's a sign that i have an unhealthy relationship 100 percent see that's what your your therapist helped you you're auditing you're realizing patterns that are unhealthy that's a word that people don't get unlock for me yeah when the therapist said that it was like wow like i was looked back at other past failed romantic relationships and this was a friendship and it's like whoa i'm constantly having to make excuses for that person to our other friends that means there's something unhealthy there yep agreed it was powerful the craziest thing about that was yeah it was an ai therapist it was this thing called sonia i've been trying out yeah and these guys invented it and they went to mit and and i've been trying it and i was talking to this ai therapist i was on vacation yeah and she that was the insight she gave me so i listen i have my own i so i work with a company called delphi yeah and i have my own karamo i know tell me about it it's pretty exceptional yeah and um i spent over two years working with a year and a half really um working with them to make sure that this clone of my ideas and my voice actually sounds like me okay and that there is parameters to make sure that the person understands that they actually need to still talk to somebody sure that they need to get out in the world.

29:13And the reason I did it is because I was watching my friends and best friend, Trey, sorry, you know, you're out there. I would watch him go to chat. Oh, it's so dangerous. Yeah. And ask for advice. And, and people don't realize most of these chat bots are just, they're just going to, they're echo chambers to tell you exactly what you want to hear. They're programmed to literally flatter you. And so you could be asking it advice about a relationship or a job where you're clearly in the wrong and it's going to it's going to tell you you're right and the other person's wrong i mean it's led to suicide it's led to some horrible things that's why these guys created sonia i met him at a mental health conference actually and they were presenting about that exact thing yeah how worried they were that people were using clod and chat and all these things yeah and so they were creating a new one that was hipaa compliant and you know has like self-harm detection that's exactly mine all of those things yeah The reason I did it as well is because like this company that you have sounds amazing.

30:08What I would love to do with mine is be an entry point for those other ones as well. Because I think that like as people get to know me, you know, you recommend even more. We should, I'll connect you with the founders. Yeah, we love. They're really smart guys. Yeah, we love. It's such a point. And the thing is, is that we are in a tricky time right now where, and I'm going to be real with you. I have an issue with AI sometimes because of like, it's going too fast. we are not really protecting the environment we're not protecting jobs it's just it's just too rapid there's not the infrastructure around yeah you know there's nothing around it and you know from your work house with tom's like there's going to be communities are deeply affected more than other communities because there's no parameters and people are just it's a free-for-all you're doing whatever you want but at the same rate i'm also aware that if we don't get involved and we don't try to start to learn it and figure out how to manage it and how to make it, people who might not have the best intentions will create something that is so horrible and then you end up living your life in it and now you're part of that cycle.

31:12You know what I mean? I share your exact belief. My thing is I 100 % think if someone can afford it and they have the time and the ability to sit with a real therapist all day long. Of course. I have an amazing real therapist that I still talk to. However, most people can't afford it or they don't have the time. And so I would much rather help these, you know, amazing young founders create something that is safe for people to use. Exactly. Versus them using chat GPT. And that's the way I look at it. And I've had friends question me, you know, because I've been getting involved and helping these guys a lot and using it myself.

31:46And but I think that's the way we have to look at technology. You have to look at technology like it's happening regardless. Regardless. And I say for me, I have my talk show and I have had hundreds of guests come on. And if you went to my DMs right now, there's at least 100 messages from this morning of people asking me for my advice. And saying, I wish I could be on your show. Can I get on Queer Eye? Can I get on your talk show? I need someone to come to my house. I need someone to help me. I always usually respond, you need to find community. You need to find a therapist, which I still believe.

32:15But a lot of these people, they see me and I'm their access point to finding help. And if someone can use me and my access point and what I've created to find some support that then recommends them to find even more support, that's why I've created it. I love it. We started one of the stories you were talking about. You were talking about your son. Yeah. And so for people who have not heard this story, I mean, you becoming a parent is one hell of a story. Yeah. You've got to share. Yeah, as I shared earlier, I told everyone, I let people in that I was gay. So I don't use the term coming out. I've been spending the past decade trying to destroy that term.

32:52I think it's antiquated, I think it's outdated. It is a term that at one point was empowering to the community because there needed to be visibility. Now the term is actually letting someone in. And when you let someone in, you keep the power of whether they need to be in your life or not. Because that whole thing of making grand announcements and goddamn Thanksgiving dinners, F that. I'm not doing it no more. If my straight sister don't got to do it, I don't got to do it. I don't got to stand up and tell y 'all who I'm. Sorry for my language. I don't have to defend it. I'm not doing it. If my aunt can have five boyfriends and no one's asking anything, I'm not standing up and doing anything.

33:28Fair enough. And so I think it gives people that power to understand you have the right to let people in or not. It doesn't make you ashamed. It makes you more careful about who you're letting into your life. The same with your home. And so I say that to say at 14 and 15, telling people everyone knew. But I had a best friend and she had talked to me about losing her virginity and we'd skip school one day deciding to practice. It lasted for nothing and then for no time I was not good at it or maybe I was and she moved away. This is 1995. So if someone didn't have like we talked about a house phone, an address.

34:08You just lost touch. You lost touch. And so when nine years later, I was coming home and there was a stack of papers on my doorstep for back child support for this nine-year-old child that I did not know about. That your name is on the birth certificate? My name is on the birth certificate. She had put my name on birth certificate. So the state had come after me. So she didn't come after me for back child support. When she applied for benefits, the state came after me. Wow. And that was - What was that? I mean, you've told this story hundreds of times. But I am sure there's a lot of people hearing this for the first time.

34:38I mean, I have goosebumps. I've only heard it twice now. Yeah. Last night at dinner and now. I mean, just pause for a second. Like what is going on? How old are you by this time? 25. 25 years old. Yeah. You find out you have a nine year old. Yeah. With a woman that you had sex with once when you were just doing it to - Yeah, to practice. To practice for her. Yeah. I mean, what's going on in your mind? So real talk, I thought that I was, so you remember that show Ashton Kutcher? That had called Punk'd? Of course, yeah. So because I just got on for Real World that was on MTV, I thought I was being punk.

35:09I thought Ashton Kutcher was in my house. Yeah, no. I actually went down to my garage because I lived in LA and I lived in my garage on the ground. And I was modeling at this time. And so I had a whole bunch of clothes in the car. So I went downstairs, changed because I thought Ashton Kutcher and camera crews were inside my house. I was like, they're punking the gay guy from Real World. Yeah, for sure. And I was like, I'm too smart. I'm going to go change. And I opened my door and the performance I gave, I was like, I'm home. What are these papers? You know, like overdramatic and nobody was in my house.

35:41And so my next door neighbor was the straight bachelor. He was like in his 40s, but he had women coming in and out of his house. Like it was a constant thing. He would ask me because I had two parking spaces. If like the women could always use one of my extra parking spaces. So I threw the papers out because I was like, oh, this must be for him. Yeah. Oh, for sure. I was like, okay, if I'm not being punked, then it's for him. Because I have not had a woman. There's no way. There's nothing. She wasn't even in my mind. And then that night I went to sleep. And like 2 o 'clock in the morning, I got up for water.

36:10And I started looking at it. And that's when I saw my name, her name, and my child's name. It shocked me into fear. It shocked me into, I felt lost. I felt. Is there anger, rage? I mean, I think, I mean, that's the first thing I can think of is like, why would I feel like betrayed that I would never knew for nine years? Like, why didn't you tell me? Yeah, the anger and the betrayal came as I started the process. Okay. Like once I had to like go there and I had to figure it out because, you know, I didn't have a, it didn't have her contact number. So I couldn't call her. You had to go to this. I had to go to the attorney general's office in Texas to go through the process of getting her.

36:48Yeah, finding her, then doing the DNA test. And so through the process, I became angry. I became pissed off. So what was it like when you went and met your son and her? Well, when I met her, I shared this with you. The minute we opened the door, any anger, any feelings that I had went away immediately because I was looking at my best friend from 15. I saw my best friend again. And so it's funny how your mind, like the book The Body Stores. I only had positive stuff stored from her. So the minute I looked in her eyes, all I saw was the funny, smart, intelligent girl that I'd always known. And we had just started laughing and talking and crying.

37:34And I asked, why? And she wanted me to have a life. Oh, wow. And she was... She thought it would hold you back. Yeah. Wow. I have goosebumps again. What a human being. She's an amazing woman. Wow. I've talked about this. She hates that I tell this story, by the way. She literally hates it. She's like, enough. It's been all these years. But people are curious. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. And the thing is that I always tell her, because we did a little series on my talk show for the digital segment called Co-Parenting Unlocked. And we talked about a co-parenting story. And the reason I tell this story is to honor her, because she's one of the most amazing mothers I've ever met.

38:12She should be honored. She's an amazing mother. She's an amazing human being. She shows up. She's strong. And the reason my son, who I then got custody of, So once I found him, I got custody immediately. Him and also his brother, right? Yeah, his little brother. Well, his brother was a year later. So I got him first. And then we found out that some things were going on with his little brother. And they were going to remove him from the home. Not because of her, because of somebody, another adult that came in. And because I was with the state, I was safe placement. Yeah, great. And so the brother came with me.

38:43But during our thing we talk about, co-parenting on lock, we talk about the fact that like, Like, the only reason my son is so great today is because she did such an amazing job for the first nine years. Oh, I mean, those years are critical. Critical. Any of the science around that shows those first, you know, seven years. Critical. My son is happy, smiling. He's full of energy. He's full of life. And it's because of her. And so I tell this story always in honor of her. She's annoyed. But, like, becoming a father was the greatest gift because I didn't think I was going to become a father. It wasn't even my mind.

39:11Like, I didn't want kids. I was like, no, you know. And so I just was like, no, I'm done. But like, you know, God has a funny way. And now I'm about to be a grandpa. Yeah. I didn't want to be a dad. Now I'm about to be a grandfather. You know, like, it's crazy. This year, I met some engineers from Nike who invented a new type of office chair that has not only changed my life, but actually saved my back. Especially because I am on about five hours of Zoom calls every day. The MoveLab chair has two different pivot points under the seat, which keeps your body in continuous micro-movements all day.

39:46The founders told me it is the equivalent of taking 3 ,000 steps. And all the lubrication of your joints and the blood flow is why my back no longer hurts. And I can focus on my work so much better. I loved it so much that I actually joined the team as a co-founder. And I will be sending one to every person I know when we launch this fall. If you're interested in learning more or pre-ordering one, we only have 500 in the first run. You can check us out at Movelab.com. And that's spelled M-O-O-V-L-A-B dot com. I decided not to take advertising for the first season of No Magic Pill, so I could actually use these moments to talk about something I'm super passionate about.

40:29Now, one of those things is my morning routine. And every morning, it starts the same way. I drink morning water. I take this packet, I pour it into this bottle, and I drink it. Now, what's in this packet? It has creatine, L-theanine, magnesium, many other supplements, electrolytes, basically all the things that I used to have to take so many supplements for. I mean, my kitchen counter, it looked like a pharmacy. I mean, it had bottles of pills and pills and pills, and half the time I would even forget to take them. So now it's all in the simple formula that my friend Austin created, and I do it every day.

41:03And this month, we're giving everyone a special offer. Go to morningwater.co forward slash no magic pill. And when you sign up, you'll get 25 % off your first month. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. So you're in your 20s. You now have a nine-year-old. The macro subject of this show is all about mental health. What did you have to do to be mentally well? because that's a lot of responsibility financially, emotionally. It seemed like you would have to, from age 25 to 27, you must have grown up a lot. I did grow up a lot. But what I did more was ignore. I pretended. And if I'm being honest, those years, even though I was a single father, I was the only parent.

41:49Because I moved my kids to California, and their mother was in Texas. So it was just me by myself in California and my sons. Okay. And so that means I had to make breakfast. I had to drop them off. I had to go to work. I had to get lunches. I had to be at every school function. You know how it is. Yeah. And I was pretending that I wasn't drowning. Wow. I was pretending that I was happy. I was pretending. I had watched every Full House episode and Family Matters episode from those days. Anything that was on, people don't know this, there was something called TGI Friday. Anything that was on TGI Friday that a dad did, I was doing.

42:25Okay. Like literally, Freshers of Bel Air, Dad, the way they showed up and they had the strength or they allowed you to sneak out, I just mimicked it. And I was drowning and I was scared and I was just full of anxiety consistently. And not a single person knew because I just was told you gotta hold it in. Wow. I remember my car shut down and I did not have the money to make it because we need to pay teachers more, we need to pay social workers more. and I will not stop saying this nurses more. And at this point, you're a social worker? Yeah. I'm working in LA at the LGBT Center and I'm working with youth.

43:02And so this is about a 20 minute drive. My car shuts down and I'm like, fuck. I remember there was a morning that I had to decide whether to give my son's lunch money or have bus fare. and i am at this point 33 years old you know like and i want you just to be in context i am a college grad who has to figure out if i'm giving my child lunch money or having bus fare to get to work obviously my children got the lunch money and i had to walk from work that morning i walked to which was about an hour and 30 minute walk through if anyone's been to LA as I went from like basically the valley to Hollywood on foot, you know what I mean?

43:55That's a walk. Walking alongside the 101. Yeah. It was during that time that I started to make this sort of like, push myself to say, stop pretending, stop pretending. Like all my girlfriends get to talk about their mom woes and how they're this and that stop pretending dude. And I'm sorry for cussing so much. Yeah, it's fine. But that was the passion I had. I was like, stop pretending, man. You are not okay, you are drowning. You're walking and your pride is too prideful for you to ask somebody for a couple of dollars to get on the bus because you don't want people to know. My mind was rattling, I'm supposed to be the man of the house, I'm supposed to know this, I'm supposed to have this.

44:32All these stupid things that I look back on and I'm like, what was wrong with me? But nothing was wrong with me, I was conditioned that way. I was conditioned as a man to do these things. I was conditioned to be this person who always had the answers, who always did it right, who spoke up. And that conditioning became my prison. And so when I talk about that early fatherhood, I hated it. I love my kids, but I hated fatherhood. Both can be true. Yeah, both can be true. I hated it. I think this is so relatable to probably almost everyone watching or listening. because this pretending is what can really lead to serious mental health issues oh yeah dude that was for me for a long time i mean i was the tom's guy i sold this company i helped 100 million kids get shoes smile smile smile when internally i felt like i wasn't enough i was lost i felt trapped by this avatar that i had created yes and so man when you're talking about the pretending it doesn't matter if it's your situation as a father, me as an uber successful entrepreneur, or anyone in between.

45:41The pretending and the not being honest with yourself or others is what can really, really cause you to get in the despair that ultimately causes people to take their life. 100%. They just can't pretend anymore. That was the first time that I started to feel myself going back to the young me that was depressed and suicidal. So I understood at that point, I had gotten off the real world and the depression came from all the things that I'd said, the pressures that, you're not enough because you're black, you're not enough because you're gay, you're not enough, all these things. When I got off the real world, it got compounded and I got really sad and depressed because I'd never really focused on them.

46:16And then I did the work to focus on them. And then during this time of pretending was the first time I felt back to that way. I felt so down again. And I'm raising two boys and I was like, they can't see dad down. They can't see me. I'm the only parent. They can't see me depressed. They got to see me positive and happy and going through. I don't want them to be worried. That's what I used to tell myself. I don't want them to be worried. Yeah, I remember that with my kids. I don't want them to be worried. How limiting do we think of our kids? Yes, there needs to be parameters to make sure that kids are protected always.

46:53But kids are a lot more intelligent and resourceful than we ever can imagine. Totally. And we can't hide it from them. I mean, that's the thing. You can't hide it. I tell people that all the time, friends of mine, that maybe you're in an unhealthy marriage and they're trying to say, oh, I'm going to stick it out until the kids go to college. I'm like, that is the worst thing to do. Because the kids are absorbing all of that. They're feeling all of that. And I've told you a little bit, I'm studying the brain a lot. And what happens to your brain when you see trauma, when you know something bad is happening but no one is processing it for you, your brain fills in the gaps.

47:27You know, it uses its own prediction model to say what your value is, what your life is going to be. And so I look back on that and I'm just like, when my son now becoming a father, my biggest advice for him is don't pretend. And as your child gets older, include them so that their own brain doesn't fill in the blanks because you're not. I think it's easy to point towards the conditioning around this, you know, masculinity and we got to be strong. And that leads to pretending. but if that's not the case why else do you think people get stuck in this pretending that thing everything's going okay when they're just suffering inside and how can we help people break free from that horrible pattern because i am convinced that it leads to really horrible outcomes more than anything well i'll tell you this one i think especially for the time period we're in people have to stop pretending therapy they have to stop pretending mental health they They have to stop pretending that they have these things.

48:25I see people throw around these words that they got on TikTok or Instagram. And they're like, they all know gaslighting. They all know, well, most people use trauma bonding. And every ex is a narcissist. Every ex is a narcissist. They throw these terms around. And they just think like, oh, I know it. I know it. I can identify it and I know it. But as I know through my own training, there's a skill that comes with really dissecting the levels, the patterns, the things that you have been through. understanding and so i would encourage people right now to stop pretending like you know these things because this is sort of the new pretending in my it's almost more dangerous it's more dangerous yeah because you've told yourself you know the problem you've convinced yourself that you can already identify it and if i can identify it then it's not bothering me when actuality just because you can identify it doesn't mean that you actually have the tools to resolve it and And that is the thing for me that I think most people right now are having an issue, which is leading them to feeling isolated, to feeling alone, to feeling like they're not enough.

49:30Yeah. Is that instead of saying, I actually don't know why my partner was acting that way. Yeah. I'm assuming they're a narcissist. But do I know what level of narcissism there was? Do I know really what was going on? And beyond identifying the other person, do I really know how it really affected me? Yeah, and what my role was. What my role was, how it is still lingering in me, how it is affecting every choice I make. These are the real questions that you're supposed to be asking yourself. And I think finding a space to ask yourself first, you know, like if I could give someone advice to not get to this way, I'd say be curious about yourself.

50:10I don't think most people are curious anymore about themselves. Well, I think they're afraid to really ask the hard questions because they're afraid what the answer is going to be. I had Paul Conti on the show. And I think he's one of the greatest therapists alive today. And his new book is about focusing on not what's wrong, but what's going right. It's an amazing book. And he really, we were having this discussion and he said, you know, in his work, he said, people are really afraid to find out what it is. It's like why some people won't do psychedelics because they're afraid if the psychedelic reveals some trauma that they don't remember from childhood.

50:48But the reality is all that stuff is stored in our tissues. It's there. So whether you want to consciously look at it or not, it's affecting you. So my belief and what Paul says is the sooner you can do the hard work of being curious, like what you're saying, the sooner you can heal it and the sooner you can move on. Yeah. And that's why I always frame it around the word curious. I love that word. It's more palatable for most people. It's more inviting. Be curious about yourself. Because if you don't, you end up letting things, as you just said, affect you for the rest of your life. And you never face it.

51:22You never fully. And all of that is going to lead you to being in the place that you don't want to be in your life. I want to go back to you. So you're 26. You're pretending. But what I didn't get yet from the story is how did you turn it around? I mean, because you're not having enough money for the bus. Yeah. We all know the incredible success you've had in the last 20 years. So what was the turning point? If I'm going to be real with you, the turning point only happened two years ago. This is what I love. This is what I love about this show. Yeah, it only happened two years ago. People have heard the ups and downs, but I'm in a place now in my life where finally I'm not pretending.

52:02I am honest with myself. I'm honest with the world. I don't allow certain behaviors Sobriety has just really changed it So I got sober from drugs But for me, liquor wasn't the big one Okay Liquor was never the big thing because I never liked the taste Okay So I would drink a beer here Yeah Drugs, on the other hand, like I loved like a, you know, some, a pill or some cocaine I loved it That was your thing It was my thing Okay So you got sober from that Got sober from that And when was that? Two and a half years ago Okay Somewhere around there Yeah But I still was like, oh, I can still go out and have a drink.

52:40I can still do a little thing, a shroom here or whatever, blah, blah, blah. Smoke some weed here. And I didn't even like weed, so I don't even know why I was smoking it. I hate it. Yeah, I hate it. But it was just like, it's out. We're at a dance event. People are like, you want to smoke a little bit? I'm like, sure. And then a year ago, I said, no, I'm going to go 100%. and i did it because i realized that i had not been a hundred percent clear since i was 15 yeah and it shocked the shit out of me when i actually sat with myself and realized i have had some substance in me since i was 16 whether it was the first party i went to we got a drink the little weed we got smoked the first ecstasy mdma pill the first time i you know did shroom the first time i did coke and and like and again these things had different meanings and feelings like some things were not that bad some things you know what i mean some things didn't affect me like how other things did but always there was something in me that was um keeping me clouded keeping me unclear and i decided i was like what would it feel like just to have a year of nothing that i can reset my clock and say you know what like instead of being like oh the last I remember being sober from anything fully was 15.

54:00I wanted to reset it. And so this past year, I went on that journey to say, I'm not gonna have a single substance in my body, not a single one. And it has changed my life dramatically. Wow. The way that I interact with myself, the way that I interact with my feelings, the way that I notice my breathing, the way I deal with people, the way I show up, the way I have conversations, how motivated I am, the way that I manifest now, everything has gotten better. The way that I, the people pleasing is gone, everything's gone. I am just in the best place in my life I've ever been. What prompts me now to be honest and not to be afraid and not to pretend is that there's nothing that I run to to cope that I use that to calm me down, that I use that to find clarity.

54:54It's just me. It's just me 100 % of the time. 100 % of the time. I mean, it's the best. It's the best thing. Who was it, Miley Cyrus? Love Miley. She said she liked being 100%, 100 % of the time. Yeah. And that's exactly what it is now. And it has changed my life. I can't at this point making it to a year, which was only a couple days ago. Yeah. Congrats to you on your year as well. Yeah. But I can't go back. Yeah. I don't want to lose being 100 % of myself. I also have been trying to encourage people, especially black men, to want to live to 100. Because most black men have never really thought about how old they'll be.

55:38They've never thought about, I think, a lot of men, but particularly for black men, our society, our world doesn't sometimes lead you to believe that you'll be 90 or 100. and when I started this 100 % sobriety I started to say to myself I want to be 100 yeah why is that not my goal why has that not always been my goal yeah sure but then I realized that in my early age I didn't think that I was going to live past 35 yeah I didn't live think I was going to live past certain ages for a long time I couldn't see myself at 70 I couldn't see myself at 80 I didn't know what that meant now I'm dreaming about being 100 I visualize the cake in front of me and it says 100 and my son and my grandsons and maybe even great-grandkids in front of me yeah and that's part of what has happened because i'm 100 myself now yeah i'm starting to dream and believe that my life can be long and full and it is a beautiful thing and so anybody out there that wants to change their life don't underestimate the power of sobriety yeah and don't underestimate the power of sobriety mixed with dreaming.

56:43Totally. I mean, I'm so glad you brought this up because as you mentioned, I just did a post on Instagram. I had my one year of sobriety anniversary and I wrote about the fact that like during that time, a couple of things. First thing is if anyone's listening and even thinking about this, they're what I'd call sober curious. Yeah. The biggest change for me was in the language I used to describe it. Yeah. So all the other times I tried to give up alcohol um i said i'm giving up alcohol you know kind of like you said coming out like it's a different you're right yeah yeah and so the reframe and i reframed it and this time i said i'm choosing health for a year you know i'm and now i'm choosing health the rest of my life like i'll never drink again i mean i think it's the most ridiculous thing in the world i mean just poison basically that i did for 50 years of my life and so you know i think change did you start drinking um i mean probably 16 17 you know texas i grew up in texas like you so think about that since 16 to almost 48 yeah 49 yeah we've never been clear yeah it's wild that people don't look at their their lifespan like that that was a big part of it is is i realized i wasn't i wasn't losing something i was gaining something yeah and hearing you talk about it is just even like such a great testimony to that because i thought dancing wouldn't be as much fun yeah i thought burning man wouldn't be as much fun i thought sporting events wouldn't be as much fun i didn't think i'd be as good at golf because i told myself that if i have a couple tequilas i'm looser and i can swing the club the biggest bunch of bs in the world the bs we used to tell ourselves oh my gosh the things i used to say to myself like oh you know before i get on stage if i just you know have a drink like oh i'm gonna be like totally i'm gonna be that guy yeah i'm so glad that we covered this and i think for anyone who's listening or watching you know and i want to be clear like I wasn't an alcoholic.

58:35I didn't have a DUI. I didn't do blackouts. I was just having a couple beers every night. It's all ranges of people who might. It has been the thing. If there's one thing I wish I would have done a decade earlier, 100%, it would be sobriety. Yeah, same. We're the most dangerous, in my opinion. When I go to meetings, I think that those of us who functioned are the most dangerous. Sure. The reason it went on so long is because I went to school. I raised kids. Yeah. I had a successful job. I made millions. Yeah. I got Emmys. Yeah. All while doing substances. Yes. And so no part of me wanted to really, because I didn't, like you just said, I didn't have the DUI.

59:22I still don't have, I've never had a DUI. I've never had an arrest. Yeah. I've never, you know. You didn't have any of those forcing functions that cause a lot of people to hit rock bottom So that they have no choice to get sick. And that's where I think a lot of people live. When I think about some of the executives, the corporate people I know, some of my lawyers, some of the people who don't know how to cope, all of them see their success as an excuse to allow them to continue these substances. And you have to look at yourself one day honestly in the mirror and say to yourself, why am I using this as an excuse?

59:54Why am I saying it's okay just because I've been successful? I've done these things that like you still have the same problem. And back to your original point, people are scared to be curious about themselves. They're scared to really say and be honest, like it's a problem. They're going to negotiate. We talked about this last night. I watched so many people negotiate with their own health, which is the craziest thing. I will negotiate with money all day long. But one of the things I will not do anymore is negotiate with my own health. Totally. And I realized I lived my life negotiating about my own health with myself.

1:00:27Yeah. I'd be like, oh, no, it's okay. I know I'm going to feel shitty tomorrow, but I need this drink. Like, I've had a stressful day. Negotiating with my own health. Oh, you know what? Yeah, they say that, like, it's going to cause this, like, whatever. You know, like, it's not going to happen to me. It hasn't happened yet. Negotiating with my own health. And I think it's one of the things that people have to take a real look at of, like, who taught you to negotiate with your own health? Who taught you to negotiate with your own life, your own well-being, your own mental health? And I don't negotiate with mine.

1:00:53Like you just said, I didn't quit drinking. I chose health. Yeah. I chose to stop negotiating. I chose to be better. And I want to have a lot of compassion for someone who might be watching this or listening that just can't give up that glass of wine at night because they're just in a high state of stress or whatever it is because I've been there. And what I realized— We've all been there. Yeah, we've all been there. But what I do think is worth noting, and I'm really curious how you're going to answer this, because I realized something as you were talking about why it was so easy for me this year.

1:01:28is what healed in you so that sobriety was easy? Because if you think about it, the reason you're using substances was to numb something or to not deal with something. And it served a function in some ways, especially alcohol. It can serve a function because you just need some kind of break from the mental turmoil that's going on. I'm curious, did something heal in you that made it easier for you to choose sobriety? Yeah, I what healed was I realized my peace was the priority. And I say that because my entire life when I really look back on it, I realized that everything I ever did was to protect someone else's peace, me staying silent in certain situations.

1:02:10So when I talk about that childhood, you're the peacemaker, I was a peacemaker. Do you know the Enneagram? No. Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of us is a peacemaker. Yeah, that's my partner. She's a peacemaker. And so when I look back, I talk about my household being damning to me, school being damning to me, church telling me I'm not enough. Never did you hear me in any of that story tell you that I fought back. You never heard me say, I screamed at my dad. I told kids at school, I fought back at church. I kept the peace. I kept the peace. I kept quiet. And as people know, I've talked very publicly about what happened to me on Queer Eye, the bullying, the excessive things that hurt me, the abuse that I didn't want to face when I was not sober.

1:02:57Like, I just went along with it. I mean, like, I tell stories of, like, there were individuals that were in power above me that I would be doing drugs with. That we were talking about sexual things. And I'm like, in any other business, if I was doing drugs or having someone talk about their genitalia, show you their genitalia, it would be bad. Yes. It would not even be acceptable. Yeah. But it was, oh, let me just, okay, this is what it is. I'm going to go with it. And I realized I was staying quiet there. I was going to keep the peace. We all got to keep it together. And I was like, by staying silent, I thought I was protecting my own piece, but I was protecting everybody else.

1:03:45Their piece was a priority because nobody was challenging the bullshit they were doing because I just allowed it. And once my piece became the priority and I realized it was a priority and I found my voice in the piece. Oh, it healed something in me. And then I was like, I'm off to the races now. I don't need the alcohol. I don't need the alcohol because now I'm never going to be quiet where my peace is sacrificed i wake up every day and i i choose my own peace and that is a big thing like oh it's a huge thing with my own kids with career i choose my own peace yeah and i'll say i'll give you credit here you walk the walk because one of the things i was really impressed is and that this is sometime i think recently where you opted out of the press tour for queer eye because you're like this is not good for my mental health not good for it you know it was good for your career but it was not good for your mental health and that took a lot of guts a lot and you know and every single person it's funny everything on person on my team that i shared that night before that i wasn't gonna go told me i was crazy they said you need to show up they need to play nice do all the things they all told me to play nice do the thing not everyone on the team but some people and i just was like no my piece is the priority i'm no longer going to ever put me on the bottom of my list in my own life yeah i need people to understand that you should never put you and i don't give a damn what society says about oh but but i'm a i'm a mom or dad first and i'm a kid and i mean i'm a caretaker or whatever the case may be i'm i'm the boss at work i gotta no you have to be number one you have to be the priority because as you know a successful businessman as i know is that if i fall apart my company falls apart if i fall apart my family falls apart and pretending and doing all that stuff is hurting them still even if you don't think it's physically falling apart it's falling apart yeah because you're not the priority on your list yeah and so my encouragement and what i've learned is to make yourself the priority on your list make your piece the priority and everything else would be great okay we're gonna have to wrap up in a second but i have a few questions that i really want to make sure we get to yeah you have brought up several times you know you know kind of what's important in men's mental health.

1:06:01Yeah. And I think that a lot of people, I think 60 or 65 % of our audience is men. Yeah. And so I want to hit a few things. And the first one is like, what right now in all the men that you're talking to, what do you think that they're like most worried about and why? From my experience, and this is like now having tons of people that I've helped, you know, like I do private coaching as well. Oh, you do. Okay. Yeah. And I did this because again, people saw me on television and were like, I've seen you help men, women, everyone, I need your guidance. And the thing that I feel most men, they're lonely.

1:06:37I think most men are lonely. I feel like most men think that people don't know them. And that's hard because most people don't ask men who they are. They give them titles and it's so easy to give men titles. Society has helped women learn how to fight against those titles and to say, I'm more than this and I'm more than that and I get to be. But men get stuck in titles. And it starts from childhood. You're the tough one or you're not. It's all about identity. Yeah, the identity. You're the athlete or you're not. You're the ladies man or you're not. You're a good father or you're not. But none of that really says who you are.

1:07:16None of that taps into the little boy that had these thoughts, feelings, dreams, fears, ideas. is I've met some guys who when I get to talk to them or I'm coaching them, I help them identify the patterns that cause them to stop sharing their ideas, to stop sharing their feelings, to stop sharing the things that they want to do because they have to stick in these titles. How do you get them to share? Whether someone is wanting to be a professional coach or they really just want to be a great friend to another male because they recognize this loneliness. How do you get guys to open up? Well, my grandmother used to tell me this and it has been a key that I've used my entire life.

1:07:56You got two ears, one mouth, which means you're supposed to be doing one of those things double time. I love when we get some grandma bombs. Exactly, some grandma bombs. On your magic pills. You got two ears, one mouth. You're supposed to be doing one of those things double times. And I say this to say, especially when I'm talking to men, most people don't shut the fuck up long enough to let a man process his own feelings. And so when I'm with men, if I'm having a session, it might go over an hour because I'm not going to rush you processing. Yeah. Because we are not given the same courtesy that we give women to process their feelings, to process their emotions, process their ideas.

1:08:32We're supposed to be quick on it. We're supposed to be fast with it. We're supposed to know. And I've told so many of my girlfriends, you got to listen and just let it be. You want to rush it. You want the conversation now. And you want the answer now. And you want them to know what they're feeling right now. And I'm not requesting that of you. And I think if most men just had the space, this is what we know. And tell me if I'm wrong. I can sit down. I fish like you. I've been fishing since I was a kid. My favorite things with my grandfather to do was get on a boat and fish. Because I, we had, we'd ask a question and the silence gave us time to like figure it out.

1:09:14And then my grandfather and I would get some conversations that were so great that I will value for the rest of my life because we had time. He listened to what I actually said and we had time to process before it was bombarded with the next question before it was bombarded And I think that's something that people don't do enough And if they can use what my granny said as a reminder when they're walking in with men You got two ears one mouth listen more than you're talking to them Yeah, it allows them the space to be vulnerable to be honest to share Yes, there's other things that need to happen But I think if you start there, it's a great place for men to feel like oh i'm finally being heard You're saying, talking about the time, but you're also talking about the space.

1:09:51So creating a space that's conducive, not being distracted by phones, notifications. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I love going on for hikes with my guy friends. Because when you're hiking, the other thing I think with guys, sometimes it's hard, even if you're really close, like it's hard to have a conversation looking directly at the guy, right? It's a lot easier if you're shoulder to shoulder. Yeah. So I think like if you're wanting to really connect, whether it's with a friend or a father or a son, you know, sometimes a way to do that is not to ask them to go for coffee. And we're just staring at each other.

1:10:24It's like, let's just go for a hike or walk, because then you have this space to process and think through these things. Yeah. And you're walking together. And so that's what it comes up to me when I hear that, because I think that the time is important, but also is the space. I'm smiling because you want to hear a secret about Queer Eye. Oh, tell me. It's a secret about queer. Okay. I've never shared it. People don't know. So one of the things that I always used to do is people would always see me driving the person we helped, who we called a hero, to meet one of my other castmates so they can get the external makeover.

1:10:57And people in the beginning would always be like, why are you always driving them? And the reason I drove them, because especially in those first seasons where we did 90 % men, it was 80 % men, mostly straight men. Yeah. I would say, I know from my own training that it is easier for me to talk to them if we're not eye to eye. And so I would put them in the driver's, the passenger seat, so that our conversations, they're focusing on the road and I'm focusing on the road. And the emotional conversations and the things that built Queer Eye to be in the success is because of the fact that these men never had to look at me in the eye.

1:11:35And it was my secret trick always. If we had somebody, I'd be like, put him in the car. And my producer would be like, we got to set up the GoPros. What are we doing? I'd be like, put him in the car. Just put him in the car. I know I can get him to talk. Put him in the car. And like clockwork. We drive around the city. We say we're going somewhere. They knew we had a destination, but they don't know how long. And they would start opening up. So what you're saying is so true. There are ways to approach men particularly. There are ways to give them time, space, that I think sometimes as a culture, we don't talk about.

1:12:06We don't share. And it doesn't mean that that man won't transition into being someone who can look you in the eyes and have a vulnerable conversation. That man will get there. But people have to remember that we have had a society, we have a culture that has taught men that those things are not okay. I think it'd be also just a little bit forward and talk to the women who are listening that women complain about men not being vulnerable. But I also have seen so many women who tell their boys to toughen up, to not act a certain way. They tell their boyfriends, you're acting like a bitch. You're doing this or that.

1:12:44They use terminology that is actually the opposite of what you want this man to be. Not saying there's a responsibility to women to handle men's shit. Sure. But I think as human beings, we have to understand that we all play a role in others' oppression. Yeah. We all play a role in what happens to someone else. If the man you love has had a mother, a sister, a girlfriend who has told him to man up, not be a bitch, to not do these things, he is taught that being closed off gives him the respect that he wants. And I just say this to say again, people need to understand these things. Like how we talked about being shoulder to shoulder, giving them space.

1:13:26there are repercussions to certain behaviors and you have to make sure that you're aware of them so that men can actually not feel alone they can feel heard they can feel seen as they deserve to be you're an incredible storyteller i love great stories you had so many transformations you were part of can you give us just one story of a transformation that you still think of from all those years that you helped there's two okay there's two that are my favorite and i gotta Fantastic. So season three of Queer Eye, we were in Kansas City, and we were helping our first disabled hero. It was a black man age, he was thinking he was like 35, and he was fully paralyzed in a wheelchair.

1:14:06And he wasn't born this way. He actually was shot. He was at his girlfriend's house, and some guy came and had an argument with the girlfriend. He didn't even know him, and the guy shot him, and never saw the guy again, but he was paralyzed for the rest of his life. And this man went to jail immediately after this. And so in these six years before we met this guy, he had to rebuild his life. He was a single father, so he had his daughter. His mother helped him, but we came in to help him to make his life easier because nothing was wheelchair accessible or any of these things. My producer, her name is Jen Lane, one of the greatest women I've ever met.

1:14:48And another one by the name of Rachel Mendez. and we were talking and we were like so what do you do for him how do you help him you know and i said the real healing needs to come from him coming face to face with the man who shot him oh wow and the man who shot him because he had shared with us had just gotten out of jail oh wow i was on parole oh wow and now this is a queer eye this is supposed to be a light-hearted show yeah you're not really taking people together who shot them yeah i just and And they ran it up the network and the network was like, no, we don't know. We're not, we're not this show.

1:15:23Karamo needs to just have a car ride with him and ask him how he's feeling. That's it. You know what I mean? But these two women had the foresight and knowledge to know that this needed to be done. And I was able to call the guy who shot him and convince him to come on camera. And this is the first time these two men ever met or sat across from each other. Since the night they met, they had never seen each other ever again. and they had to sit in front of each other and look at him and say you shot me and i'm in a wheelchair and i said this is the only way that this man is going to have healing he's going to have closure yeah just because the guy went to jail didn't give him the closure he has questions why what why me why did you have to do this yeah they approved it and i will be so proud to put together a man who got shot with the man who shot him and at the end of that they were hugging they had forgiven each other and they literally started to go on tour together to talk about gun violence wow and that moment for me yeah i mean that's the mic drop in the career right there i was like i was like if i do nothing anybody wants to say what i did with my career on top of everything that is the moment that i point to but secondly i have one other one so we were in texas now and that place has a special as as texans you know it has a big meaning and we had our first trans female a male to female okay hero okay never had done it before okay and her father would not participate in the show okay did not want to be on the show yeah and i was like we can give this woman all the love and shower with it but the love she's looking for is from her dad of course this person this man that she described was someone who was always in her corner and loved to her and then the minute that she transitioned no longer wanted to be in her life yeah and so think about that mind of my entire life my dad loved me and then now all of a sudden he doesn't love me yeah and it hit home for me because that was my own dad experience yeah and so i said to the producers i gotta just work on the dad the dad and her have to meet up yeah and i said this is not about the trans issue right now yeah what this is about is a child that lost their father and is craving for their father to see them and love them and they were like he said no i said just give me a chance let me get him in the car let me put him in the car you know what i mean i did go back to the episode yeah i drove him yeah to go get beers yeah we had a conversation I got him open.

1:18:00We had beers. Now we're having conversation. And we got to the fear that his fear was that he was just afraid to look at his child now. Because he thought his child was going to be some, he couldn't even get the words. But he's like, I'm afraid to look at her. And I was like, you don't got to be afraid. Convinced him to see his child and meet up. And the minute he walked into the room and saw his child, this grown man, tough Texan, started crying. oh sure and was like i'm sorry you're still my child and this woman started hugging her dad and it's like those moments that again i mean i healed myself by helping healing others sure and um those are the two moments i'm proudest of through all i mean there's plenty of moments but those two moments for me i know that i've transformed someone's life thank you so much yeah this has been such a great conversation like you are the fucking best like can i just tell you Like as someone who interviews.

1:18:59Yeah. I love it. You are the best. I love it. Thank you. You're great, man. Thank you. I'll tell you the backstory of this is, is about 10 years ago when Tom's was like really taking off, I was asked to interview Ted Turner at the United Nations. Yeah. And Ted was pretty old then. And the reason I was asked to interview Ted Turner was that I lived on a sailboat at the time. And Ted Turner was one of the America's cup sailing race. He started CNN. in. I had tried to start a television network when I was younger. My first business, one of them was outdoor advertising. His first business was a billboard company.

1:19:33Anyways, there was a lot of similarities and Tom's was really popular. So everyone knew who I was in. So they're like, Hey, this would be really cool. You interviewing Ted Turner. I never interviewed in my life. I've had people interview me. Right. So I went deep. I mean, I read all the books. I did all this stuff. I got so excited, big audience at the UN and I did the interview. You still, you can see it on YouTube and had so much fun. And I got off stage and, and, and, and as we were walking out, Katie Couric walked up to me and she goes, I don't know how many shoes you're going to sell, but if you ever need another job, that's it.

1:20:06And so when I had the idea for the podcast, I'm like, I had this one interview and I loved it and I just love it. So, and you may, you got the mark from Katie Couric. I'm an Emmy winning host. I tell you, you got it, brother. Thank you. You got it. Thank you. And again, I'm really thankful to know you. This is the start of a great friendship. A hundred percent, brother. You are enough. I know I'm enough. And just thank you for including me in your life. Thank you so much. I want to give you an Enough bracelet. I know you probably got one before, but I would love to give you one just as a guest on the show.

1:20:40So we do them in these boxes because we believe that the transformation doesn't just happen by wearing it as a reminder to yourself, but when giving it to someone else. so i'm going to give you one and then you'll take one with you yeah to uh give to someone else so i was hoping you give me another one yeah because my son grabbed mine okay his girl took mine and so i was like damn oh let me do it this way so i can so i was like damn y 'all took mine but like i was like the purpose of it is to give yeah please um yeah so it's it's my favorite is to give one but then also to hear who they are. And if you wear it in the shower a little bit, it'll get soft.

1:21:20Oh, nice. It starts out a little stiff. Yeah. Thanks again. Thank you, brother. Yeah, man. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with a friend, family member, or someone you love. Because No Magic Pill is not just a podcast. It's a resource to help us all live better lives. Hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode and let us know what you think by leaving a comment. A quick note that this episode is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional regarding any medical questions or concerns you may have.