How Dhar Mann Turned Rock Bottom Into a 250 Million-View Empire | No Magic Pill

0:05I would have these dreams, I would see my tombstone, and the only thing written on it was, Here lies Dar Mann, a failure. Everything that I wanted to achieve to be someone to make a difference in the world, that was the first time in my life where I thought, man, maybe none of that is going to happen. My guest today is Dhar Mann, the number one digital scripted storyteller in the world. He's got over 145 million followers across all the platforms. You never know how close you are to success. So many people give up. One day before, one video before. So you know what keeps me up at night sometimes?

0:43Thinking, what if I gave up on video number 99? The NFL recently named him the Chief Kindness Officer. And of course, he's the founder of Darman Studios, a media company built around a single idea that content should leave people better than it found them. Your struggle becomes your superpower. External success starts with internal success. Failure is not the opposite of success. Maybe failure is a part of success. Maybe my whole book is not failure. Maybe that's just a chapter in my story. I wanted to have him on the show because he's different. He's very open to conversations a lot of people just aren't comfortable having.

1:23and also what he's come to understand about success and life on the other side of these mental challenges. If you don't see yourself as the problem, then you will never see yourself as the solution. The best leaders, when something goes wrong, don't look out the window. They look in the mirror.

1:49one of the reasons i was so excited to have you on the show is as i was reading about your story i feel like you and i both kind of were stuck in this like achievement trap for a long time this myth that if if we have success if we make money if we do this then we'll be lovable then we'll be okay where did that come from for you i know where i've done a lot of therapy on where it came from for me. But I'm curious, where did that feeling of like you needed to earn your worth come from? Yeah, I mean, similar situation as to like therapy definitely helps open your mind to a lot of things. But we all have like a mom wound, and we all have a dad wound.

2:24And for me, growing up, my dad always just felt like he needed to collect more and more and more is almost this insatiable drive like for success. And my mom, she was just such a high achiever. Her father was in the military. He was like a disciplinarian. He ran a really tight ship. And so he would always try to strive like for perfection. My mom, like if I was to get like an A minus or something, why wasn't an A? If I got into like a UC school, why wasn't it Stanford? Like that was always instilled in me. So like the combination of both, always wanting more and you're never enough. that's a dangerous cocktail to mix yeah I still struggle with that sometimes because I you know I hear other people that are like you've accomplished this or you're on this track and in my mind I still struggle with like I am nothing like what I've completely fallen off I'm this I've that right like and you probably struggle with those same feelings because people are like you're the founder of Tom's like that is wow like you must be so happy but just because you found like external success doesn't mean necessarily that you found internal success.

3:33Totally. And I mean, that was my story really in building Tom's when I think about it, like, you know, I'd be like on the cover of a magazine or getting this big award at the White House, all these things were happening. But I because I had never done the inner work at that point in my life, I wasn't able to internalize it. And I continued didn't feel like it was enough. And so after I sold the company led to me getting really depressed, because I did everything I was told I was supposed to do, I made a lot of money. I had these beautiful family. I helped 100 million kids get shoes. Surely I should feel like I'm enough.

4:03And I didn't. And that's why it was so scary. And I think the reason it got so dark is because there was nothing left to do. And so I've started to believe that maybe life is designed in a divine way to have these external accomplishments feel empty once you achieve them so that you're forced to go inward. And so I'm curious, when did your inward or spiritual journey really start? That's when I hit rock bottom. Tell me about that. Yeah. You learn so much from the lowest points of your life. I think we all are trying to avoid those moments, right? You think that that is the place that you completely lose yourself, but that is actually the place that you find yourself.

4:48And so I entered my 30s on a milestone birthday. And especially with me and my background, I wanted to feel that my life was coming together at 30 years old. You're entering a new decade. This is a big moment. And I was actually at the lowest point of my life. I was going through a really bad breakup. I was completely broke. I was going through depression, anxiety. I was three weeks away from losing my apartment. Everything that I wanted to achieve to be someone to make a difference in the world, that was the first time in my life where I thought, man, maybe none of that is going to happen. And I would have these dreams that I would see my tombstone.

5:33And the only thing written on it was, here lies Darman, a failure. Like that would just haunt me over and over. I vividly dreamed about this. I have goosebumps hearing that. Yeah. Yeah, it messed with me for a long time. And so during that low state, I started to read a lot. I started to meditate. I started to try to work on myself. And one of the things that I realized is that it talked to, there's this book I was reading that said, external success starts with internal success, right? You just came back from a workout, right? Yeah. So that workout is not what made you fit. What made you fit was your determination and commitment first that came before the workout.

6:15Put the shoes on. Yeah, exactly. I mean, hey, nice analogy. What shoes are you wearing, by the way? Some Toms. Old school Toms. Yeah. Oh, man, those are vintage. But it's like you have to start with that mentality. And so I realized that I needed to start working on my mind and training that because we neglect that the most, right? Yeah, I started reading stories at that time about how the most successful people in life that we look up to, they all struggle so much on their pathway to get there. I'd read stories like Michael Jordan got cut from his high school basketball team before becoming one of the greatest basketball players of all time.

6:52Or J.K. Rowling got denied by so many publishers before publishing Harry Potter. My good friend Tim Ferriss, 26 denials of the four-hour work week. And so what I came to realize is that, okay, well, maybe failure is not the opposite of success. Maybe failure is a part of success. And if these other people have gone through tremendous failure and still found their way at the end, then, hey, maybe my tombstone, right, is not that here lies Dharaman of failure. Maybe my whole book is not failure. Maybe that's just a chapter in my story. And so I realized that when you fail, you're just really finding one more way that doesn't work, which actually gets you one step closer to success.

7:34Yeah. Ben Franklin said that. And so, yeah. Every failure is just one step to figuring it out. Exactly. Or Thomas Edison, you know, I haven't failed 10 ,000 times. I've just found 10 ,000 ways that it doesn't work. That's right. Yeah. Right? And so it got me back on my feet again. And I realized, like, well, what am I good at? And that one thing I was good at was failure. like how ironic is that and so I decide that you know what I'm going to talk about this failure because it's a relatable thing and a lot of people can't talk about it because you expose yourself you become vulnerable sure right you start to think are people going to judge me yeah I was fighting with those same concerns but then I realized that there's a whole community of people out there that have failed that feel just like me right in the middle of it exactly I mean that's I mean, that's why I'm so glad that we just jumped right into here because, you know, if someone is listening or watching right now and they're in the midst of a series of failures or setbacks and they're looking at you now and they're like, well, it's easy for Dar.

8:31He's had this incredible success, which I can't wait to dig into that. But what I think what you said is a really important insight. And that is, what if each failure is not a step backwards? It's actually a stepping stone forward to the life that you want. That sounds like what McConaughey calls a note to self. I don't know if you read his book. I have. But when I had him on the show, he's like, whenever you really get an insight, he goes, note to self. He doesn't want to forget this one. And I feel like this is one we don't want to forget is from you is that thinking about failure, not as a step backward, but as a step forward to the life that you wanted.

9:07I mean, that's such a big idea. And for someone who might be right in the midst of it and just suffering and struggling, That might seem like, wow, like how in the world did he get that idea while he was failing? Like, was there anything specifically that gave you that? Any mentor, any specific book that you read that was like, okay, that was the moment when I went from, I'm a failure, I'm never going to be anything to, no, this is just part of the process. Yeah, I would say like two stand out to me. One, Ray Dalio's Principles. Great book. And this is a great analogy because this is something that you can actually visualize.

9:38He actually talks about the greatest leaders. They don't run from failure. They actually chase failure because that's what makes you better. And so he has this analogy where he says he thinks of himself in a video game where failure is this gemstone that you have to collect. So every time he collects one of those gemstones, he becomes stronger. Amazing. Right? And wiser and higher endurance and more aligned with his purpose. And I love to hear that analogy. And then, you know, on the more spiritual philosophical side, I read the Dalai Lama's book and he talks about how the depth of your suffering defines the height of your joy.

10:21And so my content is all about empathy. The audience feels very connected to our stories because for those that don't know, so we tell inspirational stories of people that are underdogs, great comeback stories, people that have overcome tremendous like failure and hardship and still found their way in the end. And so when I'm talking to somebody such as you who talks about, man, I was depressed for seven years right after the height of my success. What makes me be able to relate to you? Let's say I'm just like, oh, Blake, I've never felt depression. You know, like, I don't know. I don't even know what that's like, bro, dude, get over it.

10:54Like, you know, I could dismiss that. But because I have been there, because I felt depressed, I felt broken, I felt all these things. I can be like, Blake, bro, I feel you, man. And we can connect. Exactly. That's what actually builds a connection. And so because I've been through so much, it actually is what made me successful because our content connects with people where people say that I see myself in your stories and that's all because they're written from heart. They're written from purpose and they're written from my own personal experience of having to live those failures. So yeah, I would say those are the books that really matter.

11:32But I like to say that your struggle becomes your superpower. Totally. Whatever it is that you're running from or whatever the most embarrassing parts of your stories are, you know, it's like Alcoholics Anonymous founded by an alcoholic. Yes. Right. Like if you can actually go through some experience and learn from it, you realize that there's so many other people out there that feel the same way you do. It might be the opportunity. Exactly. Like I love, I heard it the other day, someone said, your mess becomes your message. Yeah, a similar type thing. And so for someone who is having a hard time or going through something and thinking they're stuck and they don't know what they're gonna do with their life or what's next, especially career-wise, oftentimes you can turn that in and you've done that with your content and your purpose.

12:17I'm definitely trying to do that with this show. And I think it can be a real source of encouragement because that place, as you know and I know, can be just like so hopeless feeling. And so having that mentality, I love the Ray Dalio quote of like, each failure is a gemstone that's making me stronger and stronger so that then I can give my gift. It's like Popeye eating the spinach. Yeah, I love it. Another thing that I read that I thought also was something that I had to really reckon with myself, and I read that you kind of spoke about this in one of your interviews, was you also had to kind of move away from blaming others to really taking personal accountability.

12:54Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. So, you know, I read Grant Cardone's book, The 10X, and what he talks about is radical responsibility. And so I was at a point in my life, like whenever something would go wrong, I would always just blame whatever is happening, right? I would blame, oh, the economy was bad or my timing was wrong or this business partner didn't treat me right or whatever it was. The problem was always someone else. and the problem and the issue with doing that if you continue to have that mentality is that if you don't see yourself as the problem then you don't see yourself as the solution it's actually very disempowering let's say that again that's such a big one yeah if you don't see yourself as the problem then you will never see yourself as the solution if you're just always pointing fingers or you know jim collins another one of my favorite authors he says that he actually studies the best leaders, he found that the best leaders, when something goes wrong, don't look out the window, they look in the mirror.

13:58And that's such a big difference, because that's where the learning happens, right? If you're always blaming something else, then what did you actually learn? But if you look at it as like, what could I have done differently to prevent this situation from happening, then just like collecting those gems or eating that spinach or whatever else, That is where the actual growth happens is through the actual responsibility because that's when you actually learn. But, you know, it is a challenge. Like I will say that the issue with depression is that it's not just in your mind. You feel it in your body, too.

14:32It's like you are exhausted and scared at the same time. You want to be productive, but you feel like you can't move. Yeah. And for me, I had no, I lost all, you know, self-esteem. Like I didn't think I would ever start another business again. I didn't think I could be a good dad. I mean, the negative self-thoughts were so pervasive that I was, I was paralyzed in every area of my life. Yeah. And let's say you want to have friends, but you don't feel like you can socialize. In one minute, you're feeling everything. And in the next minute, you're feeling completely numb. What's also worse is that when you're feeling anxious, that's when actually it amplifies your fear.

15:16So everything compounds and feels much worse inside of your mind. Those feelings are real, but that doesn't make them the truth. Yes. And you have to be able to differentiate between those two. And in those moments, it's so important to talk back and say that you are not in control. And that's when you really start to take ownership back of your life is when you can actually start to talk back and start taking action. Hello, everyone. I decided not to take advertisers for this first season of No Magic Pill. Instead, I want to use a break to talk about a few things that have had a huge impact on my mental wellness journey.

15:56The first thing I spoke about in my episode with Michael Pollan. It's an AI therapy app called Sonia. Now, I was super skeptical when I first heard about this. But I met the founders at a mental health conference. They encouraged me to try it. They said it was HIPAA compliant, totally secure. I've been using it for six months now. I still have my therapist. But I don't know about you, but like at 4 a.m. when I wake up with a ton of anxiety, or I'm up late at night ruminating about something I wish I hadn't said, like my therapist isn't available at those times of day. So that's when I go with Sonia and it has had such a huge impact on my mental health.

16:32So the company just launched. It's in the Apple App Store and they let you try it free for a couple of weeks. So whether you have a therapist or not, it can be so helpful. I've told all my friends about this. My dad's using it, my sister-in-law, and I'm even using it like a life coach as well as a therapist. Like I tell it like hey send me a text on Mondays and Wednesdays and make sure that I'm actually in the gym So I want to show a real short clip of me actually using Sonia so you can get a feel for it. I'm here. What's on your mind right now? Oh I'm just feeling a little stressed about things right now because I feel like I've got so much going on I really don't know how to prioritize it when everything stacks up at once It can blur what actually matters and make that old not enough story get louder.

17:19Let's slow this down by picking one thread to start with, what feels most pressing in this moment. The important reframe is this. The projects did not cure the depression. They arrived because you healed. And when you overwork to prevent relapse, you actually undermine the things that keep you well, like sleep, presence, movement, and connection. When that edge shows up, it is a signal to reduce load and restore choice, not to push harder. I also read, and I thought this was great because I feel like it's a very simple practice that someone literally could do now while they're watching or listening to this or right after, is it sounded like when you're really in a dark period, you started going on long walks, sometimes with your brother, sometimes by yourself.

17:59Talk to us a little bit about how is that a step to building some momentum in that dark time? Again, when you're feeling depressed, the littlest task can be the most difficult thing in the world. getting out of bed is so hard getting in the shower is so hard you have to find that small step forward even if it's the smallest tiniest steps and what i realize and you'll like this example is i just make myself put on my shoes yeah all you have to do is put on your shoes because if you put on your shoes you're gonna go for a walk you're gonna go outside and when you're outside, that's just when healing happens.

18:40That's where God happens, right? Like you happen to feel the energy from nature or the sunlight or the grass, or you have a conversation with a random stranger that sparks some sort of creativity or happiness, or it makes you realize that, you know, you're not alone. Or you see someone walking their dog and you see like the joy that comes from that or playing with their child. And when you just get outside and take that simplest step forward of putting on your shoes, you'd be surprised as a therapeutic power that that could have. Oh, I mean, that is a huge thing. What I'm working on right now is just getting people to go just get a little fresh air.

19:16Yeah. You know, because like we're so connected to our screens, we're so connected to our work. And sometimes the most important thing in the world is literally just getting in nature for 10 or 15 minutes. Yeah. And that's why I loved hearing about the walk. And like, I was studying the other day in Japan in the 80s, they had these all these office workers that were just like grinding, grinding, grinding, and they were seeing suicide rates out the roof. And so they created this thing, it was called like Rishin Yoku. And it was, it means is forest bathing. And so they required the Japanese office workers to go out for an hour every day and just be in nature to decrease their cortisol levels.

19:52And it had like incredible, almost miraculous results on their population. And so I think that that is, that is so important. and it's often such a simple tool that anyone can do. It doesn't cost anything. I mean, literally just getting outside, getting that fresh air. And I like what you said about seeing someone walking their dog and the good feelings you get when you see someone doing that. Yeah. I mean, speaking of, since you use like Japanese culture as an example, so I have a podcast called What Happens Next. It's new, right? Yeah, it just came out. And it's all based on this philosophy that was always really important to me called Kintsugi.

20:26Okay. And so, you know, going back to failure and how that makes us feel broken and worthless and not enough. In Japanese culture, what kintsugi is, is when you take some sort of like pottery, let's say, and you break it and then you put it back together and you use some sort of gold lining to do so. And when you actually look at that broken pottery after it's been put back together, it's so much more beautiful than whatever the original form is. And so they use the cracks to actually help make it more beautiful. And what that is, is a reminder, right? That your cracks don't make you imperfect or a failure or not enough.

21:11They actually make you beautiful. And that's, again, this goes back to what makes this relatable. because you can look at my cracks. I can look at your cracks and be like, oh my gosh, like I've been there. That's the interesting part. Exactly. That's why we're having this conversation. Exactly. If I didn't have cracks and you didn't have cracks, this conversation is not happening. I mean, I'm a storyteller, right? Or maybe it's happening. No one's listening to it. Okay, let's say there's a story. Yeah. All right. Blake founded Tom's Shoes. Every year it just grew. Well, maybe this is your story, but like it never had any issues.

21:38Every year it just grew 1 ,000 % and then ultimately it sold, right? I mean, if someone was that asking. He got married, had kids, lived happily ever after. Exactly. Got married, divorced, got married, get divorced, did not live so happily ever after. I mean, you know how much of a struggle it was. Every year you probably felt like, am I even going to make it to the next year, right? But there's no interesting story in just perfect. The interesting story is actually in the tremendous conflict that one faces. And then how do they overcome that? And by the way, you know, not to go too philosophical, but I remember when I was at one of my lowest points, I would feel, does God answer prayers?

22:14because I've been praying so hard and nothing is actually happening to me. What I would say to that is like, God answers prayers, but it doesn't always come in the form that we're looking for. Amen. And let's say that we're praying for strength. Are you suddenly going to have like huge, like 24 inch biceps? No, you're actually going to be faced with challenges that are going to make you stronger. For sure. Let's say you pray for courage. Yeah. Are you suddenly going to be so courageous? No, you're going to be faced with challenges that you have to overcome that are going to make you more courageous.

22:49Or let's say you pray to be closer to your family. Are you just suddenly going to be filled with warm and fuzzy feelings in your body and have closeness? No, you're going to be presented with hard times that you're going to have to get through that actually, once you get to the other side, are going to make you closer with your family. So the issue is the burden always comes before the blessing. Totally. And so God does answer prayers. It's just that we don't always look at it the right way. A hundred percent. I've spoken about this in my experience with healing this core wound of not feeling enough.

23:24I, after Tom's, I started feeling depressed. I feel like I lost my purpose. And I was praying like daily for one thing. And that is, I was like, I'm 42 years old. I do not want all my best days to be behind me. I pray that I can somehow find meaningful contribution and purpose again. Because I had so much purpose when I was running Tom's. Every day was just filled with purpose, helping these kids get shoes, helping create businesses that would help the world. And what happened was seven years of depression. And so I didn't think any of my prayers were being answered. But now looking back, the way you frame it, it's exactly what was happening.

23:59Because had I not gotten depressed, I wouldn't have developed the empathy. You know, had I not gotten suicidal, I wouldn't got to the place where I had the realization that I never felt that I was enough. And then the ability to heal that with the help of a great therapist. And then I wouldn't have this ability to have this podcast or to, you know, doing the bracelets or anything. All that came from. Or this amazing team. Yeah, amazing team. It all came together because God actually answered my prayer of I want to have a bigger purpose than Tom someday. You know, I don't want Tom to be the only thing that I contributed.

24:32I just had to go through the seven years of hell to get there. So I love the way that you put that. And it's exactly my story. And I want to get back to you said two things that helped you. You mentioned you said therapy and you said meditation. But when I was reading back to your story of you're kind of in your 30s when you're really having your dark period, it didn't seem like you're doing therapy then. But you do use therapy now? Yeah. And what do you find? Because I think a lot of guys really struggle with therapy. You know, a lot of my friends, they're like, I don't want to go to a therapist.

25:03I don't have time. You know, what has been the big unlock on how has therapy really helped you? Like for someone who's thinking about trying therapy, like what advice would you give them? To be open minded. You know, when I went into it, going back to especially as a man and for me, you know, I grew up in Indian culture. I remember telling my parents I was depressed and, you know, my dad would just be like, oh, shake it off. You know, like it's just some easy thing that you can just get rid of. And so mental health is not was not a priority, especially growing up like back then, like 20 years ago, nobody talked about it.

25:39Like now people are talking about it, but it's a little bit harder for men. And, you know, when I first got introduced to the idea of therapy, I was like, oh, it's a waste of time. Like nothing's going to come from that. I was realizing that that's my own limited belief. Right. Like I felt that so many times with certain things in my life. Like someone was like, you should try yoga. I was like, yoga? It's like a girly thing. And they did yoga. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever. That shoulder pain is gone. I feel so much flexible. So I went in there in the first like five sessions.