NBA Star Kevin Love: The Breakdown That Became a Breakthrough

30:02It just, it led me to a moment where I just, I broke. Physically broke. Physically broke. You couldn't breathe. No, couldn't breathe. You couldn't even play if you wanted to. No, I had to remove myself. Like I talked about earlier, like when I was young, I always had somewhere to go. For those of you who don't know the exact story, which you just, I know it might be hard, but if you were just like, Because I think it's important for someone to understand, like, in your body, like, what was happening. Yeah, so I, it was after halftime. So we're playing the Hawks November 5th of 2017. It was after halftime.

30:36And I could tell something was wrong the minute the game started. I got into foul trouble and, again, weight of expectations. It was pretty early on. Short of breath a little bit, right? Oh, very short of breath. Very short of breath to the point where it was, there was, you know, irregular. It wasn't the normal, you know, shortness of breath that you might feel if you're in altitude or something like that. So coach Tyronn Lue was, you know, going over some plays and I'm just, you know, keep struggling to find breath and focus on the play in front of me. I couldn't focus two feet in front of me.

31:10So I just, you know, I got up out of the huddle and I immediately told him, I was like, he started telling me a coverage or something. I just said, I have to go and just ran back to the uh a familiar place which was the locker room i thought nobody would be there of course there were people there heart rate and breathing continues to you know go to a higher cadence and um it gets getting more and more scary i feel like i kick an oxygen in my brain i'm thinking like something might be wrong with my heart yes that's that's a common feeling for someone and i've experienced it where it's like am i having a heart attack yes and then like you know it's kind of like a, a, um, a heat wave throughout my like chest and my, my neck and my head.

31:51And again, breathing just keeps getting heavier and heavier. And like, I'm, I'm looking for like a place to go. Like I have no way I got, I have this, it was our old locker room in Cleveland. I'm like, okay, I can't do this here because everybody comes through the locker room, but I'm like, oh, like, if I don't figure this out now, like, am I going to like, what's going to happen? Am I going to die? Yeah. Everyone's going to see this. Right. Like everybody's going to see this. And then I literally am going through our training room and we have players out and we have, you know, PTs there and athletic trainers there that are like watching this happen.

32:23And I just sprint into our head athletic trainer's office, just fall on the ground and just like, you know, pass out. And I'm like trying to get something out of my throat. That's like, I keep thinking, maybe there's something blocking my airways and I just can't get enough oxygen, you know, and I'm profusely, so I sweat, but not like that. That was like heavy, heavy sweat. So I, you know, I'm back on, after I get up, I'm back on oxygen. I go to, you know, they get me out of there. Security escorts me out of there. I don't even know if I shower. I put on my clothes. They drive me to the Cleveland Clinic.

32:56They run all the tests. And you're totally fine. Totally fine. Yeah. That's totally fine. Yeah. Physically. Yeah. Totally fine. So I'm sitting there like, well, what the f*** just happened? So then like, you know, Kate, my now wife, she had driven from, uh, from Detroit to, um, meet us there after it happened. And then, um, um, Shannon Magali, who, uh, I've worked with for over 10 years now, she was there as well. And I'm just looking at him like, you know, I almost don't want to feel a lot of shame. I don't want to even want to like look at anybody in the eye because I'm, I don't know what's going on.

33:37Is this going to happen again? Who saw this? I have to face all of this at work. yeah like how the hell am i gonna explain this right there now now my safe place of the basketball safe space in the basketball court is now gone is it gone forever so like now it's all anxiety and fear to the max like it just makes it worse yeah just makes it worse yeah and it's just the fear of when is this going to happen again i mean after i had my first panic attack you know waking up at three in the morning not being able to breathe heart the whole thing then every night that i went to bed for about a month i was just like please don't wake up and have another panic attack yeah and then that becomes like that becomes the new normal and it's like is this all you're playing defense now the whole time your whole life is and i've been offensive player my whole life so now you're like literally playing defense in a survival and then and then what happens is then you're in fight and flight and so we know that what happens to your brain with your in fire flight you can't make any good decisions so then you start making bad decisions and then you i don't know about you but I messed up my personal life beyond belief because I'm making bad decision after bad decision, which then caused more shame.

34:42And I mean, this is what happens. And it happens far more than people realize. Right. And then you start, I always, you know, that imposter syndrome had always been there for me. And even like agoraphobia to the max now where I'm like, I can't leave. I can't go outside. You won't see anyone. Nobody, you know, I'm going to be, you know, publicly stoned if I go outside like people are just gonna rip me apart tear me apart if they know about this and then especially you as a public figure yeah and I mean I can't imagine in Cleveland they live vicariously through their athletes for sure through sports so even then like I didn't want this to be like a blemish on them I wanted to be looked at as like this yeah even more pressure this guy that um you know inspired kids and they have the zero jerseys and yeah you know it's like lebron kairi and kevin and i i didn't want to be that guy yeah um which now in you know of course in hindsight you could have never known at the time but now it's i guess become an inspiration in a different way um but again i had to go through that yeah well i mean i heard this the other day someone said um sometimes we in life we can turn our mess into our message yeah and that's what you've done so well with sharing this and being so vulnerable and you know starting you know the kevin love fund would not exist if this didn't happen so it's it's it's nice i think for me like you said earlier like making sense of things as on my healing journey has been so helpful for me to make sense of like well if i didn't go through all that pain right i wouldn't have had this idea that now is helping kids in high schools and colleges and having this type of conversation which will definitely help someone.

36:26Yeah. And when you had that panic attack, you know, that was kind of like the moment that then ultimately led you to speak up. And that was the first time. I mean, writing that essay, it was, I think, the first time that you publicly talked about this. And the response was amazing. And it's led to so much that you've continued to speak about. So how did you have the courage? like I mean what I mean that's probably all the questions I was excited to ask today this is the one I was probably most interested in is because basketball because it was your safe place you now lost your safe place by you coming out and saying this is what happened and we got to start talking about this took a tremendous amount of courage especially back then you know 2018 right no one was talking about this so what what was the insight like who did someone encourage you did you get help from a therapist like how did you know that you were ready to take this major decision and come out with this well somebody who had pushed me was demar de rosen okay and he just i always say like he probably just he had like a 3 a.m like very passive tweet about him struggling and his depression gets the best of him and that sort of thing so him and i have been connected through this since day one and also I guess selfishly it was a way for me to free myself I thought I don't want to keep living in the shadows I don't want to keep compartmentalizing I don't want to just keep hiding in plain sight right yeah well we where is it again what we don't say nothing honestly like we don't say so this was my way of and I'm always like writing like putting a pen to paper yeah I think for me it was also understanding that I could you know just help that that next person or that next kid that might be feeling like i've felt for a very long time yeah and is suffering in silence i think that was the biggest uh or the most eye-opening thing for me is like you know we wear this armor we outwardly pretend or or try and put on a uh uh you know a facade or or or i mentioned earlier play a character that isn't who we are and it's not honest and it's so exhausting.

38:39Like I, I, you know, and that's why I would put myself in, in dark rooms and, and, you know, beds or, you know, lay on a couch for, you know, hours and hours and days and days at a time. So I think it was, and when I finally pressed send on the article was understanding like, wow, you know, there are so many people that are dealing with this. It wasn't, it was every demographic. It was every walk of life. It was, you know, our security guards to, you know, teachers that I had back home to some of my best friends to just, I couldn't, the outflow of not only support, but community and shared experiences and stories after that is what led us here and what led us all these years later here.

39:28But it was, you know, very eyeopening to see like so many people that I thought were on solid footing and on solid ground were also, had also struggled. You gave them permission. I mean, that's the really beautiful thing about when you share and you don't have to be, you know, five-time NBA all-star or CEO of a company to share your mental health journey and help others. Like that's what I'm realizing and what I'm trying to do with enough is like give people permission to share and to know that by you sharing, even if you have a hundred followers on instagram i guarantee one of those hundred people probably 10 of those hundred people are gonna have a great benefit from being like oh you know dan who works in it also deals with this it's the same story yeah i mean we all literally is because i just i remember telling my agent it's like he's like are you sure you want to do this this is gonna like change everything i'm like yeah i'll change everything jeff okay but he goes no if you do this like everybody's going to know that you're real real but you're struggling and yeah but he's like you you're going to be yeah this this is going to be out forever you can't hide from this yeah and but you're so free both yeah but again like you said so so freeing and i'm like this is me you can't use me against me now like what are you going to say so so i think about like what you're doing with the kevin love foundation and like some of the things you wish you had known or tools you wish you had had in those early years.

40:52How are you applying that to then helping young people today through the Kevin Love Fund? Yeah, I think more than anything, it's establishing and providing resources for those kids and young teens at that age that we spoke of, right? Like, so - And what are the key resources? Like, what do you think is like the most important resource that you guys can provide someone? I mean, I think it's our education and our curriculum. Yeah. Um, so it's modeling vulnerability within, uh, the classroom and it's a social emotional learning, uh, curriculum, which is evidence-based. It's a free curriculum. So available to, to anyone, but it's a series of, um, many different mediums and many different lessons plans where I spoke of like kids might not have the language to be able to express themselves.

41:39Yeah. They have either two feelings. I mean, they're angry or I'm confined. Right. There's a lot of emotion in between them. Exactly right. So they're finding different ways, whether it be through music or creative writing or photography or, you know, like we did something with, you know, the Spider-Verse. I love the Spider-Verse. I watched the video. As do I, Miles Morales. I thought it was great. We did an amazing short film with them where we created a lesson plan around it as well. We got something else coming out now with Steph Curry around All Stars. So many different ways and fun ways for kids to be able to express themselves and do it around their peers.

42:14sure and um i think it's just the beauty of it is that you know this generation is so much more open to yeah having these conversations and has the presence of mind to know like no this is actually better for us yes like let's so important i went back to my high school the other day to talk about enough and share my journey and i was just amazed at how emotionally aware and present far more intelligent and so i think having you know curriculum like you guys are creating i mean that's why we're really proud that you're one of our partners with enough because i really believe that had i learned some of that early on i would not have allowed this limiting self-belief of you're not enough you're not enough my whole life and if i could have intervened then i might have done the same things but i sure would have enjoyed it a lot more i talk about that all the time i i I look, I have notes in my phone where I'm like, the hardest thing maybe in my entire career to reconcile with is that I have not enjoyed it enough.

43:15But I also in, you know, a lot of ways, again, all of the stuff that we're talking about, having not had that earlier, I think has allowed me to have this perspective now. So I am grateful for it. I'm very grateful for it. Had I wish I been able to enjoy it more because this had been my dream forever. Yeah. absolutely like i'm i'm like i look back i'm like you did you have had a great career like i've left so much on the table and i haven't done anything and it's like no grace your grace give yourself grace you gotta have that grace yeah but i i know i'm not the only one who does it i mean that we're sitting here eye to eye but you get to enjoy it now and i mean that's for me what i've said is like i look back at tom's and i was like man i really wish i would have enjoyed it more because I could have and everyone around me, I think was enjoying it.

44:04But I, because of all the pressure and not feeling enough. And so, but now with launching enough, it's, it's, I get a second chance. Like I'm building an organization. We're going to help, you know, millions of people, I hope, and I'm having fun. Like I'm having fun doing this interview. I had fun yesterday doing one in Austin. And so I think, you know, had I wish, you know, I learned these lessons earlier. Yeah. But maybe that's wasn't the way my life was designed to be. And so I think anyone listening, it's the same thing. Like, if you're not, if you're at the top of your game and you're not enjoying it, you know, slow down and figure out why because it's like you said, we're only one play away.

44:40You know, we're only one play away from turning that around. I love this quote it said when I was really suffering, someone said, you don't have to be the person you were five minutes ago. Yeah. You know, at any moment. That chapter can be done. Yeah, it can be a chapter. You can say, you know what, I'm going to start enjoying this. I'm going to start, whether it's parenting, whether it's being a boss, whether it's being an employee, what are playing an athlete. Like, I think that's, that's so, so important to know that our mind can be really hard on us, but it also can work for us in a beautiful way.

45:08Sure. And it's up to us. It really is. Okay. You might've heard me talk about this when I had Michael Pollan on the show, but since then I've become even more enamored with this AI therapy app called Sonia. I met the founders at a mental health conference and started using it with some skepticism at first, but it now has been six months and it is helping me in ways I could never have imagined. Honestly, I feel like I got a therapist and a life coach available to me 24 hours a day. And here's a clip from one of my recent sessions so you can see what the experience is actually like. Hi, Blake, I'm here.

45:44What's on your mind right now? Oh, I'm just feeling a little stressed about things right now because I feel like I've got so much going on and I really don't know how to prioritize it. When everything stacks up at once, it can blur what actually matters and make that old not enough story get louder. Let's slow this down by picking one thread to start with, what feels most pressing in this moment. The important reframe is this. The projects did not cure the depression. They arrived because you healed. And when you overworked to prevent relapse, you actually undermine the things that keep you well, like sleep, presence, movement, and connection.

46:22When that edge shows up, it is a signal to reduce load and restore choice, not to push harder. Most of my friends who've tried just one session, including my dad, are now using it several times a week. The Sony app is still in beta, but they have opened it up for anyone to try now for free on the Apple App Store. Okay, here's another project I'm involved in that might sound crazy at first. But this year, I met some engineers from Nike who invented a new type of office chair that has not only changed my life, but saved my back. especially because I'm on about five hours of Zoom calls every single day.

46:59The MoveLab chair has two different pivot points under the seat, which keeps your body in continuous micro movements all day. The founders told me it is the equivalent of taking 3 ,000 steps and all the lubrication of your joints and the blood flow is why my back no longer hurts and I can focus on my work so much better. I loved it so much that I actually joined the team as a co-founder, and I will be sending one to every person I know when we launch this fall. If you're interested in learning more or pre-ordering one, we only have 500 in the first run. You can check us out at movelab.com, and that's spelled M-O-O-V-L-A-B.com.

47:42One of my favorite quotes of all time is Mother Teresa, and she says, If you want to change the world, start in your home. So you have two young kids. I have three kids. Mine are a little bit older than yours. How, as a parent, and as someone who has had mental illness and has also seen it maybe generationally, how are you thinking about raising children so that they might not go through what we went through? Because I'm asking not as a podcast host, but not as a parent. Well, yeah, I'm not. As far as science and data and being an expert in that way, I'm not. but I've read a lot about trauma and generational trauma because I know how it relates within the confines of like the Love and Wilson family as well.

48:28I mean, you've definitely had - Drugs and alcoholism and just depression. Your dad struggled depression? He did, yeah, for sure. He just was, I mean, the whole Love family and I'll probably get some for this, but we're all like, there's a lot of us that are just like prone to bad and melancholy and just negative cycles. And, but it's true. Like we, I look at my brother and sister all the time and I'm like, we're the generation that is going to, you know, break some of that curse and able to move forward, if not for us, then for our children, because - Beautiful. They start talking about like, what I was getting at is like epigenetics, right?

49:11Yes. There's a great book just called Trauma. and by Dr. Paul Conti. I know Paul, yeah. Paul's my psychiatrist for a while. Likewise. Yeah? I love it. Likewise, yeah. So he's been great. The people that he works with have been amazing, but - Yeah, he helped me early on in my journey, yeah. Same. Yeah. So, and I'm gonna keep going back to that well, because there's a lot more to unpack. But he talked to me about it being epigenetic and it's generational and actually like lives in you at a cellular level. And your kids will therefore - Are gonna have to - Yeah, deal with that. So, and it's there.

49:55So for me, I think that is something that, because as a athlete and as a basketball player, like you're like, oh, stats don't lie, right? Like that sort of thing. So you're like, oh, give me the info, give me the data, give me the science behind it. So in seeing that and knowing that it's real, it's that has allowed me to be, um, make even more sense of it and be a better father in that way. But a lot of it is just, um, you know, learning from your parents as well. And also, uh, the relationship that you have, uh, with your spouse and, um, you know, the, the great things that you remember, uh, you know, from childhood, I think it's all, cause we're all just kind of winging it as being parents.

50:37But I, you know, I just feel the household with so much love and so much attention to them and just being so present with my daughter so they can feel that love radiating. And they do feel it. I actually did a podcast recently with Kristen Neff. Do you know Kristen Neff? So she wrote this book, Self-Compassion. And she taught me something that I didn't know about. It's called neuron mirroring. Have you heard of this before? So basically in our brain, the neurons have a resonance with other people that we're in close contact with. And they've been able to show that the neurons will mirror how each other feel.

51:21And so when we, I asked her this question about parenting because she has a son. And she said the best thing we can do for our kids, especially that have some generational, you know, issues with mental health is work on ourselves and our own mental health. Because if we are healthy mentally and those neurons are firing in a good way, it's going to affect our kids more than anything we say to them. I agree. Well, it's funny you say that because what do they say? That you can't form a memory until what you're at four years old or after that. But I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. There's so much going on before that that helps shape them at a cellular level and with their brain.

52:02It's exactly what you're talking about. So I'm glad. I've always said that not knowing, and it's not like confirming all of it, but it does add to an understanding that all of that stuff does play a part in matters as they start forming their memories as they get older. Like that is building an unbelievable base and foundation to where you're gonna, it's like what you feed them if you don't give them sugar before two years old, right? Like what does that do for a kid in their health long-term and all cause mortality? Like those things - They matter. Matter. Yeah, I mean, we talked about the epigenetics and how that affects our kids and are they predisposed to, say, depression if I was or if your dad was you?

52:39Maybe, but also you could also make an argument that you witnessed your dad's melancholy and depression. And so that was what you were seeing is what an adult does. And so then it became more natural for you to have that. So it goes back to like the more we can do to take care of ourselves, like it's not selfish. It's the best thing we can do, not just for our kids, but the people we work with, your teammates. You know, if they see Kevin Love really healthy in a mental state and really thriving, they're going to feel that. And I think that that's just so important. So I guess that's where I'm going to wrap us up because we could probably talk forever.

53:14But in order for you to bring that energy to your kids as they get older, in order for you to bring that to these young players that are so impressionable by you, what are you doing today that people listening could also take away or i can even learn from to to kind of focus on your personal mental wellness like what are the what are the key kevin love yeah the easiest thing that i can do is sleep okay so important eat well eat well yeah uh for me working out is like i'm killing two birds with one stone so like it's it's quite literally like this dopamine hit as well as helping me you know at my job and helping me want, you know, and I look at my kids and I say like, okay, I probably have osteoarthritis in my knees now.

53:59And like my body's taken a beating over 18 years of professional basketball, but I want to be a young dad. What can I do in order to be a young dad? So that inherently helps mental health. And when you said two birds with one stone on the working out, I think I know what you meant, but what did you mean by that? I mean, like, it's quite literally helping my job and having success out there with something I still love. And it's good for your body. And it's great for my body, my brain everything i would say three birds then okay because the other thing is this is a third bird so i can learn something this is one of my own hacks was is it like two of the things are so important for my mental health is working out moving my body and connecting with others and so i never work out by myself anymore it's a great if i go work out i go i and i do like to that i like to work out with friends and in an outdoor gym because then i get nature and sunlight too but i live in california so i'm lucky but but yeah so you're also getting that connection when you're working out with someone, which is so important for someone, especially if they're struggling.

54:54A hundred percent. And I think the yes answer to that is connect to like your tribe. It doesn't just have to be your direct family, but it can be your family you've made along the way. It can be teammates. It can be people that you're going to build these relationships with to where if you are struggling or something is to happen, like my father passed in April, I had so many people that I could reach out to or so many people that reached out to me because of the relationship, because we have that community - You're invested in that relationship. Invest in a relationship and it gave back. It does.

55:24Especially men. For men listening right now, I think in your 30s and 40s, you're working hard. You're building your family maybe. And oftentimes what falls by the wayside are male friendships and relationships. And you might not seem like it's a big deal then. It is. But if you don't invest in those relationships in your 30s and 40s, I learned this from my dad. Then when you hit the fan, which it always does, maybe in your 50s or 60s, you're not going to have that to fall back on. And so that's another thing that I think is key. Yeah, loneliness is a real thing too. I mean, we have an epidemic of it right now.

55:56It's, I truly believe that that community feel and aspect to all of it. I mean, I know that when I'm finally hanging up and I'm done playing, I'm going to miss the plane rides. I'm going to miss the locker room. I'm going to miss the bus rides. I'm going to miss the time out there on the floor. Just the connection time. Connection. Yeah, so you're actually working out, eating well, sleeping, connection. those I think are all things that people will be nodding their head is there anything that might be surprising meditation I mean I feel like people are so much more open to um and I've heard you speak about meditation before too it's like a huge part of my enough journey and you know it's not like my my uncle has done tm for uh transcendental meditation now for like 65 years or something crazy like that he's I mean it's like it's insane two times a day for 20 minutes I'm not saying that you have to do that.

56:45Although he would tell you, why aren't you pushing that? But it can be, you know, I always say like it could be - Five minutes. Five minutes, two minutes. Oh, two minutes. You can reset your nervous system. Yeah, for sure. Or, you know, something like he's talked about getting out in nature. Like if you can go find some grass, go find some dirt, like ground yourself, especially getting off a flight or if you're traveling or if you just don't feel quite right, get some sunlight in the morning. There's just like easy, easier, excuse me, hacks that you can do to, you know, help. just balance yourself and and and it can be so great for your mental and physical well-being yeah that's great and then the last thing i'll ask on that because i have to think there's still even doing all that and in this and with all the growth you've had there's got to be days you still wake up with anxiety i feel it right now oh come on every single day right now this interview every single day oh it's not you trust me it's not you it's me okay so so that's the last thing i want to ask about.

57:42And the reason I'm asking is because I've really been feeling great for about a year. And I thankfully have not had any panic attacks, no serious depressive episodes. I feel so grateful. I feel like I'm doing the things to maintain my mental wellness. But in the last couple weeks since we launched enough, I've been on a press tour. I've been doing podcasts. I've definitely put too much on my plate. And I noticed the last couple of days I've kind of woken up with a little bit of a remembrance of that anxiety. What do you do when you're feeling kind of that anxiety come on is it is it the breath work is it a cold shower is it is there one thing that you kind of love me a cold shower yeah yeah that's what i would say i mean is i you know a gold cold shower but is there anything because especially since we talked about the panic attack and anxiety for someone listening like okay they're waking up with anxiety what would you say is the first most important thing to do for me it's definitely breathe i don't think any of us breathe right i mean i wonder what percentage of people actually like have diaphragmatic breathing that is healthy for them and it's long-term going to be something that they don't necessarily truly have to work on.

58:46So like breathing, making sure like there'll be times where I don't even realize how shallow my breaths are or if I haven't exhaled in a few minutes because I'm holding onto something. So a lot of that is self-assessment and something I've had to get better at. That's kind of what I do in the morning. I'm like, okay, what do I need? Yeah. And it typically is the morning where you wake up and you feel like, okay, maybe I just haven't had a minute to actually understand why i'm feeling these sort of thoughts and allow them to just kind of be passive and come and go and be a meditation meditative type of um you know space within my brain but also write it down oh yeah some i forgot oh i write everything down i have notes scribbled everywhere i have no notes for days in my phone um yeah write it down i mean are you writing down what works or writing down what you're to do to do like no and also how i'm feeling so trying to naming it yeah oh that's a huge thing yeah yeah that's that's what i had to do a lot uh when my dad passed just um family grief and understanding grief and the family dynamic and father son and who am i as a son how am i going to be as a father like i had to just put it all down because it was all yeah get it out just ruminating up here and i had to put you You know, pen to paper, it's, you know, messy and all over the place and punctuations off and off.

1:00:01It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I like that. Okay, that's another good tip. Write it down. Well, I love the tips. I'm most grateful for just how vulnerable you've been today. How just you're such an incredible example of just a great guy who's not afraid to say what's happened and to share with others. And I'm so grateful you came on the podcast. And thank you for being a partner with Enough. It's just so good to be here. Yeah, I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this. It's awesome. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with a friend, family member, or someone you love. Because No Magic Pill is not just a podcast.

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1:01:54on any other app. You can also listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. No Magic Pill is a production of Lemonada Media and the Enough Foundation. The show is produced by Wubatu Shimalash, Catherine Barnes, and Keegan Zema. Additional production by Ivan Karayev and Kristen Lepore. Post-production by Oranda Studio. Jackie Danziger is head of content at Lemonada Media. Executive producers are me, Blake Mycoskie, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and Stephanie Whittles-Wax. Special thanks to Jillian Delorio, Jennifer Song, Maggie Wirtz, Andrew Fine, James Johnson, Devin Robbins, Emily Ledbetter, Chris Orwig, Sean McGurk, Jasmine Burgess, and the entire Enough Foundation team.

1:02:47The Enough Foundation's mission is to spread reminders in every form, bracelets, messages, actions, and community until feeling enough becomes the cultural default. To learn more, visit weareenough.co. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with a friend, family member, or someone you love. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and watching. See you next week.