In short
Podcast Summary: Odd Lots - Why the Short Volatility Trade Is Back and Bigger Than Ever
Episode Overview In this episode of the Odd Lots podcast, hosts Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway explore the resurgence of the short volatility trade, discussing its implications in the current market environment with guest Kris Sidial, Co-CIO of Ambrus Group. The conversation delves into the increasing popularity of derivatives such as one- and zero-day options, the factors contributing to this trend, and the potential risks associated with a low-volatility climate and heightened market disruptions.
Key Topics Discussed
- Background of the Short Volatility Trade
- The short volatility trade gained popularity post-2008 financial crisis due to:
- Low-interest rates encouraging yield-seeking behavior.
- Central banks suppressing volatility.
- The concept revolves around the belief that investors often overpay for downside protection (insurance), allowing short vol traders to harvest premiums.
- Current Market Dynamics
- A significant increase in trading volumes of short-dated options (one and zero-day options) has been observed.
- Despite the existence of numerous one-off risks (geopolitical tensions, supply chain issues), measures of volatility (like VIX) remain low.
- Sidial points out that the net short vega notional is now two times higher than levels preceding the 2018 “Volmageddon.”
- Market Participants and Behavior
- Sidial emphasizes that while many perceive shorting volatility as a simple, high-probability strategy, it can lead to poor trading habits, particularly in prolonged low-volatility periods.
- Many institutional investors that previously avoided derivatives are now seeking to engage with them to stay competitive.
- Effects of Short-Dated Options on Market Stability
- The panel discusses how zero DTE options may influence market stability:
- Market makers need to hedge their positions as underlying asset prices move, potentially leading to a feedback loop that exacerbates market volatility.
- The conversation acknowledges that despite concerns raised, the market has not yet experienced catastrophic outcomes similar to past volatility crises, suggesting a nuanced understanding of the risks involved.
- Risks of Current Trading Habits
- Sidial notes that many funds engaging in short volatility trading have been profitable in recent years, potentially leading to complacency.
- The dangers of this trading strategy become apparent in periods of sudden market stress, as historically seen in events like Volmageddon.
- Institutional Changes and Historical Context
- The discussion highlights how institutional approaches to volatility trading have evolved, particularly in response to market dynamics in 2020 and 2021.
- The increasing complexity of the options market, including the introduction of shorter tenors, has also changed how institutions manage their exposure.
Key Takeaways
- Volatility Trading Landscape: The market is witnessing a substantial increase in short volatility trading, primarily driven by institutional demand for yield and the availability of new derivatives.
- Potential for Risks: The low levels of volatility, coupled with high levels of short positions, raise concerns about potential market instability, particularly if a significant market event were to occur.
- Market Maker Dynamics: Understanding the role and behavior of market makers is crucial, as their hedging activities can have significant implications for market movements.
- Cautious Outlook: While current conditions may seem stable, the historical context reminds investors of the unpredictable nature of markets, especially in a low-volatility environment.
Conclusion The Odd Lots episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the short volatility trade, emphasizing its resurgence, underlying motivations, and the associated risks. As institutional interest in derivatives grows, understanding their implications on market behavior remains essential for investors navigating today's financial landscape.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:27Hello, and welcome to another episode of the odd lots podcast i'm tracy alloway and i'm joe weisenthal joe do you know what's coming up the odd lots pub quiz that's true also valentine's day oh yeah that's a little bit later on what else what else do you have in mind do you do you celebrate the anniversary of volmageddon do i celebrate it yeah i mean gee who doesn't no i don't celebrate it but that was such a formative moment so that was february when was the day 2018 so it's the six year anniversary that was one of like our first like really good episodes where we sort of had a good we talked about what blew up the short vol etf xiv i feel like if we like go back through our history that was like an important episode wait don't say that was one of the first good ones because we were doing this for years before 2018 you're right we've had many good i think that was like a That was a good one.
2:23It was a highlight. It was a highlight. Okay. Yes, okay. Well, I do, in fact, celebrate the anniversary of Volmageddon because I always enjoy going back to tweets around that time. Because there are a lot of volatility traders on social media who have very strong and often erroneous opinions. And one of the opinions they were holding around January 2018 was that everything was fine. Short Vol was this perpetual moneymaker. no issues with the two volatility exchange traded notes that eventually ended up blowing up one of which was xiv as you pointed out and i remember tweeting things in january of 2018 stuff like if the vix curve inverts which was about to happen this would be an absolute disaster for xiv and i had a bunch of people pushing back complaining about the access on my chart and lo and behold about a week later, XIV not only blew up, but it was dead within a couple of days and actually roiled the market as well.
3:26I remember it was very popular, XIV, this vehicle. And there was a sound intuition about it, I think, which is that, you know, is this basically betting against the VIX. And you start with the assumption that, okay, people systematically and perpetually overpay for downside protection. Understandable, people pay for insurance. And so you can harvest that premium basically by taking the other side. And that by and large, shorting vol is a sort of like a good way to a way that people supercharge their returns. And look, like a core thing is that when we talk about vol, I think like we are mostly in life short vol.
4:06Anyone who owns stocks for a long period or any period is short vol or sort of like vol is bad for portfolios, etc. So like when we talk about specifically shorting vol, though, then that's where it gets interesting. Yeah. So this is one of the things that I find very remarkable about our current moment, which is that, you know, shorting vol post the 2008 financial crisis became a very popular strategy because you had low interest rates. So people wanted to pick up yield wherever they could. You also had central banks out there in the market literally crushing volatility. So you knew that there was the put that sort of existed over the overall market.
4:47So why not try to monetize it? There wasn't a lot going on up until 2018. So it made sense to bet on nothing, basically, on things not happening. But what I find really fascinating about the current moment is we seem to be seeing a return of that short volatility trade. So you and I have discussed on this podcast these shorter dated options, one or zero dated options becoming incredibly popular, absolutely exploding in terms of volume. There's other types of derivatives that are also becoming more popular. And yet, when I look around at the market, it seems like there is so much potential for one-off events.
5:29You know, the Fed is hiking rates. We have geopolitical risk, as we always talk about and joke about on this show, supply chain disruptions. the chance of one-off events actually happening seems greater than ever. And yet, shorting vol is popular and measures of vol itself remain pretty low. The VIX is pretty low. The volatility of the VIX index, the VVIX is really low. So I think we need to ask, why is short vol back? And why is it particularly popular at this moment in time? And what does it mean for the wider market? Let's do it. I am very happy to say that we do, in fact, have the perfect guest.
6:08We're going to be speaking to Chris Sidule. We've had him on the podcast before. He is the co-CIO of Ambrose Group, and he is now officially one of my favorite guests ever because he brought us donuts. And if I sound more energetic than normal, it's because I'm currently on a sugar rush, and also I'm talking about volatility. And you took a Zin this morning. I did not, although you tried to get me one. Can you imagine if I had a donut and a Zin at the same time? That would be bad. Okay. Chris, thank you so much for coming back on Odd Lots. Thank you so much for having me. So when we talk about short volatility, Joe and I discussed it a little bit in the intro, but what is the expression of going short volatility?
6:50Yeah, the expression of going short volatility is taking a bet that the normality will continue. So effectively, if you are betting on long volatility, you are pretty much betting on the abnormality taking place. So, I mean, I said it in the beginning, but I sort of think that most life in investing is implicitly short vol. If you have SPY in your retirement account, then you think it's just generally going to go up very time. That is normal. But per your definition, that is an implicit short volatility. How does it get expressed in the options market? Or maybe your question is, why do people make that bet in the options market rather than just going the implicit route of being long risk assets?
7:41Yeah, because I think it's something that generally pays off the majority of the time within the spread as to how you can trade it. There's this embedded risk premium that, I mean, sure, people could argue that there's an equity risk premium as well. But the expression towards how you apply this, whether it's short S &P puts, short VIX calls, short variant swaps, it has a tendency to win the majority of the time. And this expression lulls market participants into very poor habits of expressing the trade. Imagine you have taken a trade and you're going to win 90 % of the time. And when the trade is working against you, you're adding more size and you're adding more conviction over the course of years.
8:31When the trade is beginning to work against you, you have a tendency to believe that this is just another one of those cases, right? It's like being rewarded for buying the dip. If you do it over and over again, you're going to feel this conviction towards it. But in short volatility terms, eventually it catches up and it all goes wrong at once. Yeah. The journalistic euphemism that was usually deployed is picking up pennies in front of a steamroller, right? So why don't you talk to us about the numbers that you're seeing in the market? We say short vol seems to be back and bigger than ever. What are the actual figures around that?
9:12Yeah. So I think it's important for listeners to have a little bit of an understanding of my background and why it is we track these numbers. So I was a prop trader on two different desks, Chimera Securities and Xanthus capital. And then I went to a large Canadian investment bank. I spent three and a half years there. And most of my time was spent trading exotic derivatives. Then myself and a couple of my partners who are ex-CTC, ex-Citadel guys, we got together and we said, hey, we could run this carry neutral tail risk strategy, which effectively when volatility is exploding, it's going to have this massive return.
9:48But when markets are dormant, we use a lot of short term proprietary trading to be flat. So you'll have foundations, high net worth individuals, family offices that will use something like this as a hedge in their portfolio, right? Because of that, we need to understand the derivative market microstructure and also the ecosystem, understanding how certain agents in that ecosystem are participating with one another. So over the last year, what started to come up in the data was that the short volatility trade was coming back in huge size. So when you think about the S &P complex and the VIX complex, the net short vega notional today is two times higher than when it was during January of 2018, which was the month right before volmageddon.
10:40This is when we're going to have to define vega. Vega notional. Tell us what you said. We should just do all the Greek letters just cut them out of the way right now, but Vega. Yeah. So in vol terms, right? Think one point of a vol move and how much you'll make or lose. Okay. Right. So if you're net long a million bucks of Vega and volatility moves up one vol point, you'll make a million bucks. Okay. Vice versa. Right. So what that's saying today, that number, the netting short exposure is two times higher than where it was during January of 2018, which is right before Baum again. Additionally, and I sent you guys this chart from Morningstar, which is such a crucial chart, in my opinion, these derivative income generating funds, the AUM in these have increased by over 10x since January 2018, right?
11:39That's another sort of fact that's pretty insane to think about. What's the definition of a derivative income fund? Yeah, so it's the same thing as to what we were talking about at the beginning of the pod, where we said different expressions towards harvesting these volatility risk premium traits.
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13:53It's intuitive to me why there was so much interest in these income generating derivative strategies during the ZERP years when you couldn't just generate income by going out and buying a government bond. But now you can get 5 % or whatever. So why do people go to the exotic route for income generation when there are very plain vanilla things that actually pay yield these days? I think 2021 is a year that will go down in the derivative history books because what happened during that year was you had a slew of new mandate additions between large foundations, pensions, RIAs, endowments, mainly because of what transpired in 2020.
14:37You had a really big vol move in 2020. And then also in Q1 of 2021, you had the whole meme stock sort of debacle. So if you were a large institution that did not have exposure to derivatives and that type of mandate, you almost looked at as archaic in a way, right? So at that time, a lot of these institutions said, we want to start trading options. Simultaneously, what was going on was the exchanges started listing more and more tenors. So you started having seven days till expiration options, five days till expiration, zero days till expiration. And a lot of the consultants at these larger institutions started realizing, well, back in the day, if we wanted to sell a 20 % out the money S &P put, we have to wait one quarter to collect five bucks in premium terms, right?
15:33Today, we could sell a zero DT option for 50 cents and do that 20 times over and over and over. And what this does on paper is that it changes the path dependency, right? So you really won't get hurt for one little thing happening at the end of the month or the end of the quarter. The problem with that is that on paper, it looks like that. But when you run certain correlations, you realize that you're still taking the same exact trade. Because if you wake up tomorrow and you say vols are up five vol points across the vol surface and the term structure, you're going to realize that seven days till expiration option and the one month till expiration option are both going to be negatively impacted.
16:20Maybe this is a good chance to talk about the ecosystem of the options world. So setting aside the derivative funds, which are buying these things, someone is also selling them the options, usually the market makers or the dealers. So what is the role of market makers in this process? And then also, I'm curious how cheap it is to go short volatility in general now, because this was also a hallmark of the 2010s, which was it was pretty cheap to do these trades. Right. And so that was also another part of the appeal. Why not just pick up a little extra yield for not that much money? Right. So in the ecosystem, the market makers play a very unique role because if you look at some of the data that some sell side research does put out, it's not really entirely correct because a lot of these desks like to take a certain narrative.
17:16But that positioning changes day by day with these market makers. So it's not to say that every single day they're long gamma or short gamma. It's at certain moments where that positioning becomes unbalanced and can really create that more cascading effect. In cheapness and richness and volatility terms, we're seeing one of the lowest levels of tail exposure that we've ever seen. And this is something that is really surprising because everybody understands you shouldn't sell tails. That was something that people learned in 2008, 2018, 2020. Yet that exposure keeps making its way back into the market.
18:03And right now, forward skew that like 30 days out skew. And I'm not trying to get super esoteric with the vol terminology. But just that type of wingy exposure has been oversupplied over the last, let's call it six to nine months. Sorry, just to be clear, there is not currently a lot of people buying de facto tail insurance right now. Correct. Not at all. It's weird. I mean, I guess on some level, I'm surprised because, right, like things seem crazy and there's wars going on and people are concerned about what the Fed is going to do and the economic environment is uncertain and the political environment is uncertain.
18:46On one level, it feels like it'd be an environment that would be, oh, I want to grab tails. I want to buy insurance. On the other hand, the stock market is at all time highs. Volatility is low. Clearly, just looking at financial markets. This is not a market environment in which many people seem particularly concerned about very much. Well, why would you buy tails? Think about this. It's been four years since the last real vol move. So in the face of rising inflation, in the face of a declining S &P in 2022, in the face of a mini banking crisis, in the face of all those things you've been able to sell vol and make money this is why so some of the data that we track is like u.s equity short vol hedge funds that AUM has grown six times since 2018 why would that AUM grow because those funds are doing insanely well because you've been able to sell volatility left and right and really just get away with it a generic straddle selling program, like without having any sort of true quantitative input, you just wake up every day and sell straddles, has made money hand over fist over the last four years.
20:00Could it be the case, you mentioned the shorter tenors that are now available, and this has been a much discussed point among market commentators, the impact of zero and one day options, ODTE and 1DTE. Could it be the case that people are buying less tail risk exposure or extreme downside protection in favor of maybe hedging themselves on a day-to-day basis with the shorter dated options? So what we're seeing is that during certain events, that's the case. However, that doesn't take away for the reach that you have in that 30-day exposure, because when you look at the volume across the VIX complex and you look at the volume traded in that 30-day exposure, it's still heavy.
20:50It's still there. So people that are saying, well, nobody's going to hedge with 30-day options anymore because they're hedging with zero DTEs so the VIX won't go up, that's really a bad view. And there's one real point that I'll bring up that will push back on that in a pretty large way. If you are an institution, a multi-billion dollar institution, and tomorrow, God forbid, there's a geopolitical event. Are you going to hedge a multi-billion dollar book with zero DTE options? There's no way. Any sophisticated fund is going to realize, well, I probably need to extend my duration on that hedge.
21:27So that reach for one to, let's call it three month fall, will always be there. It's just that in the recent environment, again, over the last four years, that has not been the case because we really have not been met with a catalyst that has tested the broad market. Just real quickly going back. So a short straddle trade, which are very popular, or it has been a big moneymaker, as you said, that's just betting that markets won't move much. Selling a call and selling a put at the same time, implicitly, it's just like, you're just betting that things basically stay in a narrow range. Correct. You're selling, yeah.
22:01How did short vol make money in 2022 when the stock market was going down? That was the main point of 2022, if you were a vol trader. And you don't need to take my word for it. You could look at how well shortfall funds did in 2022. Really because there was not a pickup in equity fall. And a lot of people misunderstand this because rates fall moved, FX fall moved. It was almost like every fall in every aspect move, except for US equity fall. So when you look at, and you can look at just the VIX to begin with, VIX is a great representation of something like that because it's variance, right? So it's really vol squared.
22:43S &P vol squared is going to give you VIX. So S &P 30-day implied vol always stayed in that range from like 20 to I believe the high end was like 30 something. It's really difficult to get vol to move up when you have a lack of realized move and panic that's coming in. So a slow grind down, every day going down 1%, half a percent, 2%, that's not really going to get people panicking to bid for that insurance protection. Let's go back to the sort of worst case scenario that you were touching on earlier. But just before Christmas, I think it was like a Wednesday or a Tuesday, there was a sharp drop in the S &P 500.
23:29And this kicked off a wave of speculation about the degree to which shorter dated options had exacerbated that fall into the close. And the thinking here is that, well, when stocks start to move down like that, all the market makers have to go out and hedge their exposure. And so you can get this sort of doom feedback loop in the market where stocks keep going down because dealers have to hedge the fact that stocks are going down. Walk us through that dynamic and then how much are you actually seeing an impact in the wider market from these shorter dated options on a day-to-day basis? Yeah. So we wrote a paper earlier on in 2023 that got a lot of attention.
24:13Surprisingly, it got attention from regulators and central banks. And I think when some of the regulators reached out to us, it was because they understood as well, just how severe a certain situation can end up being. And they want to collect data on that as well. So when you talk about zero DT, it usually falls into two camps. You have camp A that says, oh, no, nothing's going to happen. The positioning offsets one another. This is not a risk. And then you have camp B that says, this is going to create a massive catastrophe. Black Shoals kind of stuff. Right. This is a black swan event. And I don't think either or are true.
24:59This becomes a problem when dealers are hedging their exposure in a high vol environment. So what ends up happening is during normal conditions, when you have most of the flow that's lean to sell these shorter dated options, that is stabilizing to the broad market. However, when volatility is going up and these end users are not only closing their position, but opening new ones, that puts dealers under pressure where they now need to hedge their exposure. and reflexively that could drive the asset price lower or in some cases higher as well. So in this situation, it's not really a case of the S &P going from 0 % on the day to down 5%.
25:43It's what does this look like if the S &P is down 5 % and then could escalate to down 10%. The second point to that that I'll bring up, and this is a very valid point, if you are a hedge fund or an asset manager, you understand that the larger primes are concerned with trading with their clients trading this stuff because of the lack of visibility around certain intraday margin requirements. So if you're a hedge fund, you have a certain EMS that may be outsourced somewhere else. What's EMS stand for? It's just like an execution management system. So you might be trading somewhere else and those positions are settling at the end of the day.
26:27The PB is not really able to see that. So if those positions go against you, you may be on the hook for certain exposure that is not accurately assessed for. That's really the second. Yeah, that's the second problem there. I have so many questions already, but I do think this is actually an important point, which is that in a lot of the commentary on shorter dated options and zero TTE, there's an implication that it's all these stupid retail traders who are using these things. And, you know, people talk a lot about Wall Street bets. And it is true that you can find some out there stories about people on Wall Street bets losing and also making money on shorter dated options.
27:08But a big portion of this is huge, institutional, ostensibly sophisticated investors. I'm glad you brought that up because actually this brought me back to something that I wanted to return to. The sophisticated investor, talk more about what happened in 2021 with the introduction of these mandates, because I do think that feels like a very important element that we can always talk about market environment and we are in a high vol environment or a high rates environment or a low rates environment. But if the allocation is going to change and new products exist. We see how that affects the market.
27:44What specifically were these decisions that were made where these big institutions felt that they had to like, tell us a little bit more about some of these decisions. Yeah. So think of 2020. 2020 was a year that option trading did very well on both sides. Hedging programs did very well. And then also when the market rebounded, certain stock replacement programs did extremely well. When 2021 came, Q1, and the meme stock craze hit, that was almost like the nail in the coffin where you had certain investors and boards that started pounding on the door and saying, why are we not exposed to options?
28:26Because look, everybody's making money, not in the sense that they want exposure to meme stocks, but they're saying, hey, we should have long call tech exposure, or we should have volatility risk premium harvesting programs. And ultimately, that put a lot of pressure on certain consultants. It put a lot of pressure on certain teams. But as I said, simultaneously, when the exchanges began listing more and more tenors, people started realizing that, well, ideally, we probably want to engage in these volatility risk premium harvesting programs because look if this is what the S &P is doing look how much more we can make by selling vol and now the path dependency has completely changed so ideally this becomes an easier trade for everybody.
29:17Tracy now I am reminded it's so funny all these things I forgot from that time but there was like that big thing with like SoftBank because, you know, a massive buyer of just like long call options on tech as if it weren't already exposed enough to tech beta. They also bought a bunch of call options on tech stuff. Gotta double down. No, I do find it remarkable that they're like everyone thinks Wall Street bets and that retail craziness was sort of people trying to imitate Wall Street. But now we basically have Wall Street trying to imitate the retail crowd and the sort of YOLO mindset of let's just try to make as much money as possible on a sort of in a short an amount of time as possible.
29:57I want to go back to the impact on markets. And I take the point about the doom loop scenario, although, as you say, you don't think it's as bad as, you know, getting a sort of Black Shoals-esque kind of crash. But one thing I guess I don't quite understand in this argument is people are not going to keep doing the same stuff if the market is falling significantly. So if someone has a put that went up 500%, they're probably going to sell some of it, right? So if you have people selling puts, then wouldn't that bring in buying from the market makers, which could actually stabilize the market in that scenario?
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30:40No, no. So when an end user is short the put, the market maker is effectively long the put, right? So at that time, if they're long the put, they're going to be long the underlying on the other side. So long stock. it changes when the end user is now long the put that puts the dealer short the put if they're short the put that's bullish which means that they now need to sell the underlying on the other side so and this is where this comes into like a second order effect naturally if the end user is selling this the market maker is stabilizing this when that position starts to move against them what's the end user going to do?
31:26They're either going to close off that position or they're going to close it off and then take more of the other side. So they're going to say, okay, we're closing this off and maybe we're going to bet on long volatility. That is when the market maker begins to get put under pressure. And just to be clear, this has existed since derivatives started trading. I think people think that gamma hedging is something that came about six years ago. That's not the case. If you were a market maker in the early 2000s and the 90s, you realize that, hey, this is how we hedge a derivatives book. So that second order effect only becomes more relevant because the sheer size of what you're trading is so much larger.
32:10So now you have, back in the day, you had 20 market makers. Today you have four, right? Four main market makers, or let's go with five that really control the flow in the US equity market. These are really big bank trading desks. Are these? Not just banks. Not just banks. Okay. I probably, I'm not going to name them, but like. Well, just like what are the nature of these, like the four or five? I'll whisper to them to you after the show. But I don't, wait, we could, I mean, we have no limitations on saying. You guys can link. You guys can link. Tracy, who are we talking about? Okay, so people like JP Morgan, Citadel, that kind of thing.
32:45So just big trading shop. Yeah. Okay, so some bank, but not necessarily bank. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So going back to the numbers, right? Index option trading has grown two times since 2018. And equity option trading has grown almost two and a half times in totality. So when you think about the concentration risk here, you have less market makers and more options being traded. So, of course, it's natural to think that those market makers will get caught offside on positioning, especially when the end user is so dogmatic in their application of this shortfall trade.
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35:54How do people actually do it? So if you are a sophisticated vol arbitrageur, you will have certain in-house systems that monitor certain second order Greek exposure like vol of vol, right? Spot moves and gamma exposure, vana exposure. very few people in the world who need to care about that you know for the most part if you are an ria or even like a macro hedge fund that's trading options you're probably going to be on like a certain bank platform and that's going to be okay all right because you really don't need to care about second order greek exposure but if you are more so a dynamic fall shop those things become more important.
36:37I think when you're thinking about the problems of an EMS and how that translates to something like this, and then also the applications of short vol, really you have to understand that the majority of the world and how they trade is not like a sophisticated vol shop. It's like an RIA that's going to wake up and say, hey, we need to make 50 basis points every month. So sell these options. And if the position begins to move against them, they're going to say, oh, well, great. Sell some more. And then it moves against them, sell some more. And then it moves against them. And then maybe they'll capitulate the position.
37:17So it's not really, the bulk of the world is not really dynamically trading these things. They're more so dogmatically taking a one-sided view on this. And that's why you get those vol blow ups. Yeah. Who is long vol these days? Because, you know, again, in my mind, I just think, you know, very my very rudimentary. Theoretically, they should net, right? The amount of people shorting vol should be offset by the amount of people going to long vol. And also, I just think like if I had a lot of money, I would want to take out some insurance against some sort of blow. But if the people with the money, even them are sort of like sort of changing their strategies.
37:56Is there anyone who's structurally long vol in parts of their portfolio for the hedging aspect? Yeah. So for what we do, it's called carry neutral tail risk hedging. And this is more so a tactical approach. However, the majority of what you call strategic or solutions-based long vol or tail hedging has done insanely poor over the last three to four years. It's been obliteration. And we're pretty outspoken that those type of applications don't work because what you'll see at an asset management firm, they'll say, okay, great. If you're a family office, you have$500 million in equities. Let's take 1 % a year and allocate it to some long fall.
38:45And then over the course of years, you realize that, well, that's really destroying my portfolio. I can't just lose a percent a year. That's why you're seeing more sophisticated institutions go or lean towards tactical defensive hedging as opposed to the solutions-based defensive hedging, because those just really do not work over the long run. So you just can't wake up and say, yeah, I'm going to buy a put and just keep rolling it and rolling it. Right. That eventually costs a lot of money. Exactly. Who are the big winners from the explosion in shortfall and derivatives in general? I have to imagine that the CBOE would be in there, given that they're the ones selling the shorter dated options, maybe some of the market makers.
39:29Who's making tons of money from this? Yeah, so definitely the exchanges are doing quite well. Market makers generally do quite well when you have big vol environments for the most part. It's important to note, and I think that this goes over a lot of people's heads when they're going through the research, SIBO is incentivized to make sure that the data that they're showing you is pretty. So SIBO is never really going to come out and say, hey, all these options traded is a hazard because it just goes against what they're trying to do as a business. And for what it's worth, I like the guys at CBO, respect them, clearly doing extremely well from a business standpoint.
40:14But yeah, the exchanges are doing quite well. Market makers are doing quite well. But whenever you're reading research or data about these options or zero DTE, it's important to take it with a grain of salt when you're getting the research from people who have been doing well. I just have one more question. It kind of goes back to what I was saying, how I understood the value of income generating strategies through derivatives, particularly in the Zerp era when there was not many sources of just sort of like income. The market complexion has obviously changed quite a bit because now there's yield, but also like traditional like sort of natural hedges in the market don't work anymore.
40:57So if you had this, the old 60-40 portfolio, at least for a while, it was like terrible. And so like this idea like oh hedge by having a little bit along here along here and they do differently like that doesn't work how has that changed the vol trading business these sort of reversals of some long-standing just sort of correlations of bread and butter assets yeah i think it's it's for the good of the ecosystem because i think it is cycled out the bad managers managers who have not been able to navigate this environment have been really taken to the woodshed and i think that's important you need a healthy cycle out of those bad products and those bad managers because look everybody's a hedge fund these days everybody manages some sort of assets these days and the reality is that that alpha doesn't exist everywhere so when you have poor products, after a while, people start realizing just how poor they are.
41:58And then those participants get cycled out. So I think it's healthy that this sort of stuff has come to light because you shouldn't just be able to put somebody in some generic put buying program and charge 25 basis points and a 5 % incentive fee on that. That doesn't just jive well. I have one more question, which is how do you prove that the explosion in options is having an impact in the market? Because so far, the observable pattern that I have seen is that something like a December 21st happens where the market falls. JP Morgan publishes a note saying part of this was because of shorter dated options.
42:39And then the CBOE comes out and says, no, no, no, we didn't see any evidence of that. And you have all this polarized commentary. It feels like in something as mathematical as options trading and finance, we should be able to point to concrete evidence. But we are still having this debate about the overall impact. So what do you look at to prove that this is happening? So the way how we trade is literally a second by second basis. And I think unless you're trading like that, you won't be able to have a good picture as to what's going on. So we have certain agency desks and market makers that cover our flow.
43:17And you talk to these guys, you go out to eat with them, you build relationships with them. And there's an ongoing joke that we have with one of them. And they say, listen, every time volatility spikes, we have five clients that will come in and fight with each other to sell it. they are jumping over one another to sell volatility. Now, it's hard when you don't have that color or you're only seeing a price on screens. But when you understand the ecosystem and what's transpiring under the hood, it paints a cleaner mosaic to understand that we've only seen one side of the equation, which is volatility being stabilizing and just not really performing in dormant markets.
44:09But there will come a day when there's a catalyst that pushes this thing through. And it's very similar to like Volmageddon, where everybody who was trading vol during that time understood the exposures were baked into the ETPs. And then after it occurs, they'll say, oh, yeah, it was so obvious. Didn't you know that everybody was short for volatility in the ETPs. I swear to God, it was not obvious to everyone. Chris Sidial, thank you so much again for coming back on All Thoughts. That was a fantastic explanation of a pretty technical change in the markets, but an important one. So thank you. Thank you guys for having me.
44:47Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much.
45:01Joe, that was so good. That was really interesting. I have a joke. It's not as good as Chris's joke, though. Maybe I shouldn't tell it. Tell it. Tell it. Tell it. What does a risk manager with a science degree at a large market maker say when he wants a salary increase?
45:24Tell me. He asks for a gamma raise. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Gamma raise. Oh, that's good. Gamma raise. That's good. He asked for gamma rays. Okay, that's good. I'll work on it. No, that's good. I'll workshop. No, I thought that was really interesting. He sort of Chris crystallized something in my head, which was about the exact mechanism of the feedback loop. Because I had assumed that as the market moves around, people are lessening their exposure. But as he put it, like the thing they're doing to lessen the exposure can also lead to market maker behavior that is not ideal in a stocks going down and everyone's scrambling altogether scenario.
46:05Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. I also just thought like the sort of big picture, if you have a lot of money, you just cannot buy insurance trivially. It's not like he's like, oh, I'm just going to like, as he pointed out, like, you know, you take 1 % of your assets a year and roll it into some fund that supposedly is going to deliver major returns every time there's a pandemic or some major thing. Like, you're just going to lose too much money that way. And so then the idea of like, OK, well, like these institutions take the other side and see opportunities in shorting vol. And so you sort of see how how this trade can just get so large on one side.
46:43I also like the point that, okay, this is not nothing. It's not a trivial evolution of the market. But at the same time, it's not a Black Monday, Black Shoals redux where this is going to lead to like a massive crash because at the end of the day, one day options expire. At the end of the day, the options are ended. The end day options end. Okay, I need to workshop that one too. Thank you. Yeah, but there's something there. But no, I like that point. I thought it was a very clear description of the ecosystem. Yeah. And it is amazing to me, given everything that's sort of gone on, how much the vol trading environment has changed.
47:21Because you would have thought after 2018, after the wildness of the post-pandemic period, that things would have gone in the other direction, but nope. No. And also we knew because of, you know, we took in 2021, we talked a lot about retail, obviously, but it really is telling. And then that fell off. And then, you know, you could see, you know, SIBO as a stock kind of peaked at the end of 2021 for a while and then fell and everything. But obviously there's just so much more than retail. And so when we're talking, you know, I think if people hear zero day options or any of these options, you know, they just sort of think about people like on their apps gambling.
48:01But the idea that it's not necessarily gambling, but there's sort of like very dynamic, intentional hedging participation in these markets from big money is pretty astounding. Sometimes it is gambling, though. And there's gambling. All right. Well, at the end of the day, one day options expire. That's what it is. But the conversation and the controversy over them certainly does not. It goes on forever. Sounds good. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Jill Weisenthal.
48:32You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our guest, Chris Cidial. He's at KCidIII. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmin, Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. Thank you to our producer, Moses Andam. For more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots, where we have transcripts, a blog, and a newsletter. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in the Discord, discord.gg. And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you think that all of our guests should bring donuts when they appear on the show, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform.
49:10And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all our episodes ad-free by connecting your Bloomberg subscription to Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.
49:25Thank you.
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From the publisher
There are plenty of one-off risks at the moment, but it seems like betting on pretty much nothing happening is more popular than ever. Investors are increasingly reaching for a wide variety of derivatives to bet against volatility. Those derivatives include one- and zero-day options which expire in 24 hours or less, and have become a hot button topic on Wall Street. So what's the impact of this explosion in options trading? Why is it happening at a time when the possibility of major disruptions seems more likely than ever (even if realized volatility remains low)? And what impact could it have on the wider market? In this episode, we speak with Kris Sidial, Co-CIO of Ambrus Group, about the return of the short vol trade.
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