Joel Kocher - This $200M CEO Discovered What Cardiologists Won't Tell You

29:15If you don't have the literal comprehension and understanding that, and you embrace that thought that what got me to 10 million is not going to get me to 30. If you don't embrace that and understand that, then you're not going to get to 30. And that's why you see such a high fatality rate in companies. I'm convinced of it. There's 27 million businesses in the United States at any given time. Do the math. Do the math. And you look at the failure rate. The failure rate's because of the CEO. The CEOs like to point to fingers, the failure rates because of the CEO, because the CEO doesn't understand that what got them a 3 million or got them to 5 or 10 or 20 or 50 isn't going to get them to the next level.

30:07You've got to intellectually grasp the harsh reality of that. And you know what else? You You have to be like the most prolific learner ever to be able to navigate a company like that, a high growth company. I feel like, yeah, so learning, curiosity, adaptability. You mentioned something very, very interesting. For people to stay on that Inc. 5000 list and the people that fall off it, asking, is it a people issue? Is it a strategic issue? Is it a market issue? Are you just saying everything just boils down to, does the leader get the right people on the ship? Is it really just boiled down to that?

30:52Does the right leader get the right people on the ship? And does the leader have the capacity to be the lead adapter and have a high degree of awareness that it's not going to get me to the next level? How many times have you heard this? Hey, man, I got the formula. We're winning. I'm going to double down. Doubling down is like the dumbest thing I've ever heard in all the years. Please say that louder. Double down kind of sounds like dumb downed, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's like double down. Dude, you are doubling down in the rearview mirror. It's like you don't get it. And it's tough out there, especially now.

31:35I would say it's tougher now than it was when I was coming up through the ranks in the 90s. In the 90s, there was no social media. So if you were successful, you could be under the radar screen until you got to 100 mil. Can't be under the radar screen now to get to a mil. So the copycatters, the fast followers, those dudes show up fast. And guess what? They're going to kick your ass. Because those copycatters are really good at copycatting. What were you good at? You were good at creating. You were good at ideating. So if you don't develop a pretty quick skill to figure out how to deal with the copycatters, you're done.

32:24And that's why more often than not, I don't have a statistic for you, Mark, but more often than not, the ultimate winners are not the earliest movers. The earliest movers fall out. It's so funny you say that. I said that in an earlier episode. So I'm not a first mover advantage guy anymore. I'm a, let someone else take all of the risks, understand the product market fit, and then go from there. A great book. You ever read the book, Only the Paranoid Survive by Grove? I feel like as a leader, if you're not - He said that to me. Are you serious? He did. He came to Dell and I don't know, it was probably 92 or 91, something like that.

33:04And I was walking him around, giving him a tour and we kind of connected. And he said, before he wrote the book, He said that to me. He said, are you paranoid? I said, what? He said, are you paranoid? I said, paranoid about what? He said, paranoid about in a business context. And I said, yes, I am paranoid, but my competitors that are bigger than me better be more paranoid. He said, well, you better be paranoid because only the paranoid survive. And from that, let me tell you one thing I don't like about that quote. only the paranoid survive. I don't think surviving is what it's about. I think surthriving is what it's about.

33:46So if Andy was still around, I'd call him up and say, hey, Andy, why don't you just modify that quote just a little bit? Only the paranoid surthrive. Yeah, I think for me, from an awareness perspective, I've said it a long time ago, is it's a very simple exercise, a SWOT analysis. Strengths, weakness, opportunities, and threats. And I think always keeping top of mind, weaknesses and threats and understanding how you could be attacked at all times is one of the most important qualities as a leader. You mentioned talking directly to Grove. I'd love to know, you were in the mud, the number two to Michael Dell.

34:23What was his superpower as a leader? Relentless pursuit of the edge. He was 21 when I went to work for him. We were 100 million. I was 29, 100 million in revenue. We were a gnat on a gnat's butt because the personal computer industry was already pretty big. There were some multi-billion dollar players. And Michael is 21, but he, that guy, I tell you, relentless pursuit of the edge, that's the best way I can characterize him. To go a step further on that, just a relentless pace, just holding everybody to a relentless, like what do you actually mean by? Not necessarily pace, although in those days we slept in our offices half the time.

35:07But I would say he was always looking for the edge, always looking for the competitive edge. Now that you brought it up, I believe he spent probably pretty close to a third of his time just interviewing with no intent to hire. Explain. He just wanted to gain the edge. He would interview competitors. He would interview people that were in different jobs, but just to get the knowledge and the know-how. Hey, that's something I didn't know. That's something I didn't know. So he also, I remember when we just hyper-accelerated. I think we went from, don't hold me to this, but I think we went from 200 million to one and a half billion in one year.

36:00when we really, we just hit the slope. And I remember him walking around the office saying, at 23 or 24 years old, what haven't we thought of? What's going to take us down? What's going to take us out? Asking anybody and everybody. Vendors. I'd be in vendor meetings, he'd be asking them no questions. So he was always seeking, right, where the threats and opportunities were. That's great. actionable advice for anybody out there. I always ask smart people. It's something I was going to ask you tonight at dinner is I always say, how do I fuck this up? Is I want you to understand and know where I'm at, all of my different kind of angles and initiatives.

36:41And obviously you've been through more wars than me. So just getting that from someone, I want to know more. You mentioned 200 to 1.5 for the pre AI days, it was the fastest growing company in America. What are some other like big, big lessons you can take out of that and kind of share with our audience? Growth of the firm through growth of the people. The number one problem that I had year in and year out was players, right? Who to put in a game, how to go to the next level, who can go to the next level, not having enough players. So, I mean, it's, you got to grow from inside. You always have to add from the outside.

37:22I mean, let's face it, in a hyper growth business, you have to do that. But the number one learning I walked out, I walked out there with many, but the number one learning was growth of the firm through growth of the people. I feel like as a leader, this is all boiling down to, I always say it's clear vision, keep the lights on and make sure your people are happy. It seems like through your lens and through Dell's lens, it's just all about being the people allocator and then just making sure everybody has clarity and incentivizing them. Does the business just come down to that? No, but I think you're probably nine-tenths of the law with those things.

38:00I think where a lot of people get in trouble with business is they overcomplicate it, and it's easy to overcomplicate. It's also easy to undercomplicate, but at the end of the day, if you have great people that are highly convicted to change the world, it's kind of like, how can I go wrong here? How can I go wrong? And I think the hardest thing to do, though, whether you're Dell or whether you're human, is finding the people. And this is our good to great conversation, right? Get the right people on the bus, okay? I think that's the hardest thing is getting the right people. There's a lot of hard things, but the hardest thing is getting the right people on the bus because you got to find a group of people that want to change the world.

38:50They want to change the world. And those wanters, the super high want quotient, it just seems to me like it's getting harder and harder to find those people. Do you think that's true? I definitely do. And I think for me, one of my personal weaknesses is probably from a time allocation perspective. I have not spent enough time on Iconic. I am on Open Residency. I'm very proud of my team right now. I think that they're - That's obvious. Perfect person, perfect seats, both of them. Is my buddy, Steve Weiss, he sold his company for nine figures, Mute Six. And I was always so perplexed. He's got a big following on LinkedIn and he would spend an insane amount of time on LinkedIn scouting and interviewing.

39:38And the reality is, is how much did he actually do on working like in the business? Probably not that much. He just elevated, found the people and just relentlessly not only hired them, but then put in really, really good incentive plans. Was he a guy that could convey vision and conviction to his team? It was a, per what you just said, a very simple business. So yes, a complex business is the worst business. That's why, like when I was on your website, why I loved it so much is just everything is heart health. It's funny because I was like, I'm looking for creatine and electrolytes. I was like, you know what?

40:15It's not here. It's very, very narrow and deep. It's singular. It's clear. You can say - Narrow and deep. Narrow and deep. Focus. Focus wins. Focus wins. I believe that. So it seems as though that with a focus on getting the right people on the bus, I'd love to understand and know. I've never asked this question. I want to know, how do you handle like disagreements with your team? Because you seem like a very like playful yet fair guy. How do you handle disagreements? You mean between me and them? Yes, you and a team. Well, first of all, if they don't disagree with me, they don't work for me. God bless the troublemakers is one of my 10, I'm not going to tell you what they all are, but one of my 10 operating principles as a leader.

40:59is one of the top ones. God bless the troublemakers. You learn really hard lessons running public companies, right? What gets, you think those people that get promoted to CEO of a multi-billion dollar company are morons? I don't think so. Right, so how did that guy get fired? And by the way, the fatality rate's pretty high, right? Think about how many CEOs you can name that are CEOs for 20 years of one firm. but what gets them fired are all the yes men. What gets them fired is through the layers of people that they lead, everybody not wanting to deal with the realities of the bad stuff and putting a sugar coating on everything.

41:48Think about it this way. If you have a company that has 10 layers, a multi-billion dollar company We have 10 layers from CEO to entry level, usually more than that, but 10. If every single layer up to the CEO adds one layer of sugar coating, what is it by the time it gets to the CEO? It's the same consensus from everybody. So what's the CEO making their decisions on? Their decision support comes from the team. So that's what gets CEOs fired. So yes, men get them fired. I want people that are not only are going to disagree with me, they're going to disagree with me with passion and intent. And even if it gets personal, I'm good with that.

42:38That's amazing. And that's very, very rare. I mean, all you do is you always hear stories about like Steve Jobs, about how it was just his way or the highway. And that very well could have been an outlier. I'm more in the camp with you where you have to have radical transparency and everybody needs to call out everybody. I'm more in your camp. Well, I tell you what, that's a smart move on your part. And it's more the exception than the rule. I don't know why. I guess it's called ego, but it's more the exception than the rule. By the way, I knew Steve very well. Yeah, you know, I actually didn't put this in the notes section, but a little birdie told me that you told him to go fuck himself.

43:19Yeah. You did. Steve was an asshole, but he was also the number one. He's the smartest guy that I've ever dealt with and the most visionary guy I've ever dealt with. So I had a love-hate relationship with Steve. He was named CEO of Apple for the second time on the very day that the company, I was president of the company, not CEO, but the president of a company. We had filed our IPO that morning. So we filed our IPO, made the press release that morning. Steve was renamed CEO of Apple like mid-morning. He took the shine from you. Well, it was worse than that. His first phone call was to me to tell me that my license, because the company that I was leading was making Macintosh loans.

44:13We were licensed by Apple to do that. Steve calls up and says, you're killing Apple. Apple was struggling at the time. You're taking business away from Apple. There's not room enough in the ecosystem for both of us. You're frankly out marketing Apple. I'm going to cancel your license. I said, well, you can't do that. He said, well, I just did. And what'd you say? I said, I'll see you in court. Great. Well, the board and the founder of the company that I was involved with, they didn't want to fight. So Steve, I made it pretty painful on Steve at Macworld and put a lot of pressure on Steve with the Mac community because they loved us that he bought the company.

45:01So you guys laid it down and sold the company. I want to go back to, you said he was an asshole, but he was brilliant. Why was he brilliant? What was the brilliance behind Steve Jobs? He understood what consumers wanted before they knew what they wanted. That's what he used to say to me, right? I was like, typical wisdom is, well, you ask customers what they want, they'll tell you. But his perspective was, they don't know what they want. I'm going to tell them I know what they want, and I'm going to give it to them. And that was the edge that I think he brought. The other thing that he understood, I love this.

45:40In fact, it just popped into my head. You'll love this, Mark. He said, I have the best definition of marketing, Joel, you've ever heard, and it's only two words. I said, Steve, you can't define the word marketing in two words. I don't even know if I can define it in 10. He said, I can be different. That was his definition of marketing. I thought it was just, I mean, that's brilliant, right? Another thing that he said to me that I've not forgotten is, all you've got at the end of the day is brand. That's all you got. So there you go. That's so deep. And man, it's just so crazy how for people listening that have listened to all the episodes that like, if you really take these conversations to heart, the exact thing that you just said right now, those two things is literally the exact conversation we're having about importance of brand, deciding who and when we do these episodes, who comes on, but then ultimately making sure that the format and the packaging of the show is not only different now, but seeing where the puck is going and radically shifting to make sure that we move on before we get stale.

46:53So those two things. You know what I took from that? You said we're approaching 200 million. Well, you could, you could argue after the period of time that we've been doing it, why aren't you bigger than that. But what I took from Steve's comment was that don't do it quick, do it right. And I see too many entrepreneurs who are all about doing it quick. And if there's anything that I've learned in the years I've been doing this and would want to convey to your listeners, if they're entrepreneurs, is first and foremost, you have to do it right, not quick. Be impatient, but be impatiently patient.

47:39Impatience is a great attribute to have as an entrepreneur, but if it consumes you and makes you do things, everything quick and fast, you will never be a sustainer. You'll never build brand. and the brand that you envision, you have to have enough patience to do things right. And in our case, it was all about science. When we started our company, we said, we're going to raise the bar on the supplement industry. The supplement industry isn't as regulated as most people think that it is by the government. There's way too many products, in fact, probably the majority, to be honest, that are not efficacious.

48:22They're not backed by science the way they should be. We've done 13 clinical trials. We took the time, effort, and investment to build the know-how, to build the products the right way, make sure that the science was there so that our products work. And we build a brand that people respect. What's up, guys? It's Mark. Quick 15-second break. We're building a private community for operators, marketers, and creators. And in order to join that wait list, you have to sign up for the newsletter. The newsletter is going to be alerts on all of our new content and my personal takeaways from each and every guest.

49:00Make sure you click the link at the top of the description to sign up. Thanks for watching. I want to dive deeper into the people. How does somebody out there go about finding these people and ultimately closing them to be a part of your company? You're talking about in the supplement area? Yeah, let's talk about specifically in the supplement area first. And you can riff. I think 99 % of supplement companies couldn't get those people to come to work with them. because we're talking about people that are the head of cardiology at leading institutions. You know, we're talking about head of nutrition at Penn State.

49:33We're talking about those kinds of people. They're not going to risk their reputation going to work for companies that are not clinically or science-based. For us, it really wasn't that hard for that reason. There was a little bit to overcome. It's like, okay, I'm going to go work with a supplement company. But when they saw the level of science and the commitment to science, if you can attract a Nobel Prize laureate, you have a pretty good chance of attracting anybody that you want. And I say that humbly. We've been able to do that. But it all goes back to the original DNA of the company. It all goes back to we are going to change the trajectory of human cardiovascular health.

50:15That's what we do at Human. I want to dive deeper, even deeper into the people side and something that we've never talked about. And I'm always obsessed with it is I call it org chart porn. It's just understanding and knowing you've been a part of Dell where you said it's 10 plus. Did you say org chart porn? Org chart porn. That's actually from... Org chart porn. Who came up with that? Did you come up with that? Actually, Matt Gray came up with it. And now I've taken it off him. He's a great systems guy. He's just the master at guarding his time and creating systems. Yeah. I'm so, so curious about that because I just want to understand and know not only from a management perspective, but like specifically on a per category perspective or per industry perspective, like who are the key players and how do you value those players in relation to where they're at in the company?

51:02Like something that I found out recently is like on the tech side, when I think of product manager, I think of like a mid-level like account manager. And like I learned more about product manager through this. Like a product manager is like insanely important. They're like the resource allocator. They're a linchpin. Yeah, they're a linchpin on the whole entire business. So I'd love to hear from you as much or as little as you want to tell me of what is the operating rhythm and the ebbs and flows of your company and how do you kind of lay out your company? Okay. Well, I'll tell you how I think about organization.

51:31Right? And I find that in too many companies, organization just occupies everybody's mind too much. Titles, org chart. is just a distraction. The reason God created organizations is for one reason and one reason only. Do you know what it is? I was going to say that to stay organized. Execute the strategy. Okay. That's it. Yeah. Is there any other reason? Anybody in that, this is, you want to drive me nuts? You want to draw like, really make me crazy? Yeah, let's go. Tell me, use the word own, like a vice president goes, well, I own that. You don't own shit, right? Who owns that? You don't own anything.

52:24Your job has nothing to do with ownership. So when I think about org charts, it's, they're snake skins, man. You design them for the moment. Remember we talked about what got you here won't get you there? You go into these larger BMF companies, it's no wonder they're stagnating. They're excited about creating 3 % year-on-year growth, right? Because the org charts look the same for 20 years. You want to change it up, change up the org chart. And the org chart is all about executing the strategy. Does the core strategy change? No, but the conditions change constantly. So in order to keep the company on strategy, the org chart has to be a snakeskin, and that's the way you look at it.

53:18It's malleable. It's changeable. Any words of advice? Maybe not for a three-person startup, but once you get up into the 50-employee range, don't let the org chart become permanent or semi-permanent in anyone's mind. It is a snake skin. What about communication cadence? Does the whole entire team have access to you? Do you have a layer to get access to you? Is there a cadence where on Fridays only you take meetings? Are you guys all on Slack? What does that look like? Yes, yes, and yes. But I think when you talk about that kind of thing, to me, I'll give you my pet peeves, right? Every board deck I've ever done is presented to all employees within a week after the board meeting.

54:08Now, are there a couple of things that maybe you have to remove or take out? Yeah, of course, right? They're sensitive. But that board deck is, I show it to the employees. Corporate planning, right? Everybody's got to have a plan. I show the plan to all employees, have all hands, and show them what we're setting out to do. And then I give tests. I test the entry-level employees in our companies on the company's objectives for the current year. And I keep testing them until they get it right, right? I mean, people do their best work when they understand what the hell you're trying to do. I've never understood this.

54:53I just don't understand the boardroom conversation and keeping it in the boardroom when it's the people that are doing the work that matters. People are inspired when they feel like you're being transparent and honest and being forthcoming about what it is you're trying to accomplish. So I break my butt to make sure that everybody in our company understands the objectives, understands how we're doing against those objectives. When our think shifts or changes, I hold a fireside chat. I'm all about that. Now, at the end of the day, would I say that every single one of those employees, because people slip through the crack, but would every one of those employees pass every one of those tests I give them?

55:41Maybe not. But the vast majority of them, they appreciate it. And because it unleashes the beast in people when they feel like they're on the same page with what you're trying to do and that you're not just a tool. God, that drives me crazy. You make people feel like a tool. And when you can't touch every single person every day, then that's when you really have to make sure that the people that you've brought into the company to lead are leading, and they're leading effectively. How important is the interview? How involved are you in that? I interview every single person that goes to work in the company.

56:21And I interviewed every single person in every single company I've led until it just got mathematically impossible for me to do it. It's the most important thing you do as a CEO. You are the CTO if you are a good CEO. Chief talent officer is what CTO stands for. You are who you hire. You know, people, by the time people come to work in a company, they're largely baked. I don't care how good a leader you are. You are not going to transform a slug into a racehorse. So you better hire racehorses. In that interview, what are those key questions, triggers, tendencies? What are those key things that you look for in those interviews?

57:07I'm looking for conviction. I'm looking for somebody who wants to make a mark, wants to change the world. People that really, truly care about other people and the human race. Those are the people that I'm looking for. What you're trying to weed out are people that are all about them, that all they really want is a job. You know, those people will kill your company. You hire, let's say you're a 20-employee company. You have five of those, you're dead. You can't hire those people. You can't afford to hire those people. They are company killers. If there's anything I don't freaking understand, so I'm going to get pissed off, right?

57:54Are these jack wagon CEOs who think they're too important to interview an entry-level person? You want to explain that to me? I don't get it. I interview everyone. Well, good for you. And I'm not surprised in the short time that I know you that you think that way. But what the hell are you doing, dude? what are you doing during the day that is so damn important that you can't interview somebody that's going to come to work for your company? Oh my God. So you're clearly under the fire fast. What about hire? Hire slow or hire fast? This is all over the place. You hear this everywhere. I mean, fire fast is 100%, but hire fast or hire slow?

58:42Hire slow. I'll never hire somebody that's going to work directly with me, even one step removed from me after one interview. It's not happening. It's not even going to happen after two. We're going to break bread together. We're going to break bread together. I like that. And we're also going to have you bring your partner because, okay, listen to this. Oh, I like this. You want to find out who somebody really is? Bring their partner. Ask the partner who they are. Now, you can't be quite that, do you know what I mean? You can't be that quite direct, and you can't make the partner feel like they're being interviewed.

59:22You have a glass of wine, and you start talking, well, what? Tell me. Tell me. Oh, yeah, well, how did Mark react to that? Gosh, tell me how he reacted when you wrecked your brand new car. Now you're doing your job. You're getting underneath it. You're learning, oh, Mark was like turned into asshole mode. Oh, I haven't seen that side of him. Why did he do that? So it's just really, really revealing, you know, when you do that. The other good thing about doing that is who's, without getting too personal. Oh, no, I got my fiance a lab-grown diamond ring. Is she the most influential person in your life?

1:00:07Yes, I would say so. Yes. One of the many reasons why we're engaged is I trust her judgment and her EQ is off the charge and she has been right about people, situations. We're at a point now or a little past two years where, yeah, more weight is going towards her decision making. Of course it is. Yeah. All right. So let's say that I'm interviewing you for CMO. Yeah. Right? Who are you going to ask about whether you should take this role or not? Oh, first. Her. Yeah. So I bring her to the dinner. I want her to get to know me. I want her to get to know us and what we're about and what our mission is and why it's so important and why we're so highly convicted about it.

1:00:50Because I know you're going to turn to her and she's going to have a major influence on you. And she likely would also tell you. If it's a no. That's right. She would likely tell you, you know what? You're not going to like working with that guy. That guy's like intense. Mark, you're not going to do well with that guy. Don't take the role. And you know what I say to that? Good. Good. Hallelujah. That's a win. That's a win because we found out before we ever went down the path together. That's an interesting two-way street. She has to work till seven tonight. I really want her to come now. Damn.

1:01:28Even though we're not interviewing here. What's her name? Her name's Nana. Okay. Yeah. I like it. She's the best thing that's happened to me on an array of different levels. You know what I think? I think it's pretty cool that you could say that. I am a, we run our relationship like an operating system. And if you look at it very objectively, if you look about my bank account from an enterprise level and a cash level, my social awareness, my probably VO2 max, every single thing that I look at is up and to the right. Same with her. She would say the same thing. So I just look at it very, very objectively.

1:02:01is this person a plus or a minus in my life in all those macro categories? If the answer is yes, then that's probably who you should be with. Oh, you found your soulmate. We have you. I can go on and on about that. I want to tie a bow on the hiring side. What is the biggest hiring mistake you've ever made?

1:02:19Hmm.

1:02:23I haven't made too many.

1:02:28at the senior level, at the senior level. I've made plenty at the non-senior level. With that being said, under the notion that when you're at scale, obviously you could only do multiple interviews on probably the higher level people. See, that's why I haven't made that many mistakes, I think, Mark, not to interrupt you, okay? It's because I'm telling you it's five to six meetings, right? If you incorporate the dinners and the coffees and all that. Whereas at the lower levels, they've been vetted, they come in. I still interview them, but it's a one interview thing. And I think I haven't been able to uncover maybe all the things that you uncover after you meet with someone six times.

1:03:15Something absolutely mind-blowing. There may be a chance that you don't do this too, and this would be my greatest gift to you. We talked about it in the last episode. For some people, if they did not listen to it, I just want to quickly touch base on it. Gallup tests, the Harrison tests, the working genius test, the personality test. Do you do that? Mm-hmm. Why do people not, more people don't talk about that? I don't understand that. It is, again, for people listening, I just want to touch on it briefly because we go super deep in the Simon episode about this, is understanding and knowing your strengths, your weaknesses, how you operate, and then you find holes in your company.

1:03:44And then if they're this type of personality, when you go and interview people, you better make sure they're an exact type of personality. I would say that's been one of my biggest learnings from the time I was an early exec at Dell or very early in my life. I mean, involved in running a multi-billion dollar company and I'm 30 or 31. When you think about it back then, it was like I gave the personality test for the first time after I'd hired all these people. Like the executive team, I remember it was in an offside. I'll never forget it. And every single one of them were the same as me. That's not good.

1:04:18No. No, it's not. That is so weird that in Michael Dell, Michael Dell never talks about this. That's very, very interesting. That is a huge thing that does not get talked about. Guys, it's personality tests. Yeah, I know. I have a link down below. I'm putting it, I'm linking it down below again. Guys, you have to take this working genius thing with 20, 25 bucks. I'm ripping off 20, 25, 10, 15 times if I need to per position. Very smart. Anything you can do to get to know the candidate better than you do is just smart because you're getting married and you're depending on those people. You're betting your company.

1:04:57Every time you hire a person, you're betting your company, really. Especially when you're uber small, you're betting the company on who you're hiring. They can do so much damage or they can be the oxygen in the room for the company. One random question that I think would be really, really helpful to a lot of people listening. I've gone through this kind of back and forth. What's your whole entire thesis on having an assistant? Both for your personal life, both for the company, at what scale? What has it done for you? I've done anything and everything. I've done no assistant. I've done almost six figures for an assistant.

1:05:33I've done overseas in the Philippines. I've done anything and everything. She's back. Taylor, I love you to death. I hope you're listening. What do you think? I don't have one. Go on. Why? I don't have one. In today's world, I don't think you need one. Now, I've had roles where I've had two, right? And I've had roles where I've had one. But in today's world, honestly, do you really want to go there? It's just like I'd rather invest that money in something else or invest that in salaries for the people that I care about that are pulling the wagon. I mean, that's just me. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do.

1:06:18No, that's a very interesting - But you asked. You asked. I mean, that tells me that at the highest of high scales, you could not have an assistant. I mean, that's what that tells me. So that in itself is wisdom. Now, that's what the technology that exists today, you couldn't have done that 25 years ago. Yeah, there's no way. And the reason you couldn't was you didn't have cell phone, right? So people literally were calling on an office line and you had to have somebody take a message. You had somebody manage that. It doesn't take an assistant to manage your travel schedule. I mean, come on. Full-time assistant.

1:06:52Come on, Mark. Damn, I feel bougie. Come on, Mark. My revenue is a little bit lower than yours as well. Okay. A riff off of that, which is what I'm looking at now, and it's a different human, is chief of staff. For me, just looking to, ironically, do a little bit of assistant stuff, like own my calendar, but more importantly, buy back 20 hours every single week of my time. What's your thoughts on a chief of staff?

1:07:17Damn. What are you a chief of staff for? What are you, like a freaking king? I mean, acts like a king to be treated like a king. 48 laws of power. Come on. Chief of staff. Oh my God. Guys, I'm getting smashed here. We're going to go down to the next position and let's just see. Are you kidding? Are you joking? No, chief of staff. I guess where I'm getting to, is, okay, I assume you have a COO, right? No, I don't have a COO. I am the CEO and COO. I'm the operator in the business. Now I have a president, to be fair, to be fair, I have a president who's my co-founder and she and I divide and conquer.

1:08:04So I don't manage supply chain. She manages supply chain. She's the best relationships person I've ever seen. So she does most of the company's relationship. So to be fair, I do have a very capable, experienced executive that I'm working with. But no, I don't have a COO. And I can't imagine at what level you would need or want a COO. Now, if you're a CEO and you're not an operator, then yeah, I would agree, right? Because at the end of the day, as a CEO, you've got to surround yourself with people who do things well. Cover your weaknesses. Right, that you don't. Right? They're complementary to what your skills are.

1:08:50And frankly, you better be a man enough or a woman enough to hire people that are better than you are. You better hire people that are better. In fact, I would just tell you straight up, I would never and haven't for 40 years hired anyone in a role that I didn't think they were better at it than I am. And yet, too many leaders are afraid to hire, just being honest, too many leaders are afraid to hire people that are better than they are. I think people also don't understand the resources and the process to get those proper people. What about that? What are some key ways? Obviously, you have leverage in the marketplace.

1:09:33You have a great brand. You have a great backstory. What are some of the key ways that you acquire talent? Well, if you have to pull the recruiter card, then you're probably under networked, quite honestly, especially if you're super small. because the bad news about hiring a recruiter when you have 10 people or 20 people is that at best is going to Las Vegas and pulling, right? I'm telling you. It's also, for people listening, a recruiter is like a 10 to 25 % premium on the yearly salary with usually a very small cliff. Like some of these cliffs are like two months. So until I get to 20 to 30 people, I think going and hiring recruiters is ridiculous.

1:10:19It just means you're not. If you really think that your business is the people, that being in business is the people, and yet you are having to hire a recruiter when you have 10 people in your company, then you don't really believe that people is the company. You have to be a networker and you have to do the things that are going to allow you to find the right people. And let me ask you this. Would you rather hire a known entity or a completely unknown entity? A known entity. Of course. So how are you going to hire a known entity if you're hiring a recruiter? Now, there are places for recruiters.

1:10:56I'm not, I have two sons that are entrepreneurs and they have a tech recruiting company and they do it extremely well. But I think that's for entities that are small, excuse me, that are larger than startups. I would just say for everybody out there listening, and I've been for my whole entire career until recently, I would say 99 % of entrepreneurs out there don't spend enough time on finding and developing talent. Talent, you said? Yeah. People. Oh, no, you're right. Yeah. Have you ever heard of the talent ratio? No. Right, because I invented it. And I haven't written my book yet. So, talent ratio.

1:11:43You're like a really smart guy, so I know you're going to get this. Okay? Thank you. It's a rhetorical ratio. Okay? And it is the ratio between revenue and talent. I've heard revenue per employee. What is this iteration? Oh, this is revenue and talent. Okay? So, you think about a company that's in high growth or hyper growth has a shrinking talent ratio because they can't bring in talent at a rate that they're growing, right? So as a CEO of a successful business, let's call it a hyper-growth business, you have to become obsessed with the ratio of talent to revenue sustaining or even the talent being greater than at a rate you're bringing in talent at a rate greater than the business is growing.

1:12:42Otherwise, you are diluting the capability of the business. Yeah, I would imagine that you can't over-index on talent. It's probably good to hire the talent early. But it's a level of consciousness, right? Now, this isn't for the slow growth company or that has two people or whatever. I'm talking about a hyper growth business, right? Where you've hit it and man, you've hit that scale-up lane and it's rolling, almost without exception, every single passing day, the ratio of talent to revenue is declining. And you cannot allow that to happen because it is the best predictor of future performance.

1:13:25Think about it. It's the best predictor you have of future performance. Yeah. You say that. I'm just looking back at my company and about when we took that jump, I think it may or may not have happened. Obviously we were putting in the work, but it was very much so because of the marketing conditions with COVID. And then we didn't have the necessary additive talent to take us to the next level. You completely agree. I remember the hire that I made and he was not the guy to take us to the next level. And that one, let's just call it wrong hire, was probably the, I took a big bet on this guy. It was the first like big, big bet I took and it didn't work out.

1:14:03And I think I'm looking back, I'm reflecting, that if that was the right guy or girl versus him, that could have been, everything could have been completely different. And just so we're clear, the quadrant that I'm referring to, this is an obsession quadrant. As a CEO, you have your conscious state of consciousness about this ratio has to be extremely high and it almost has to become an obsession. You asked me about how'd you do 10 years in a row? Well, that's how we did 10 years in a row. You're paying very close attention because during those 10 years, there were years when the thing grew 70%.

1:14:39Well, a 70 % growth year over the base of an employee base in most cases is going to be a dilutive year in talent ratio. And you just can't let that happen. Was it? Yeah, it was. But it didn't last for long because, you know, there's a lag to talent, bringing talent in and hitting it. But it wasn't for long. But I really, that's why I interview every single person. That's why I'm so embroiled and focused on people and people are the success of the business because that's the ratio. No one talks about it. That's a really, really good mental model. I've never heard of that first time hearing it here.

1:15:22That book will be good too. Let me know in that book. Talk about that book on here. Let me know. I want to hop into retail because you, it's interesting to me because of this kind of slower, gradual, incremental growth that you've had over 15, 16, 17 years. You're now in Walmart, Target, Sprout, Sam's Club, GNC, and Walgreens. Only recently. Yeah. So 15 years. The company's 15 years old, so 13 years old before we went into retail. I don't even know what to say here. Okay. Unpack that for us. So you went, can you let me know on 13 years in, a ballpark amount of revenue that you guys were doing before you even looked?

1:16:04Low 100s. Low 100s. Low 100s. And you were? Maybe not quite 100, actually, if 13. So maybe just approaching 100. Okay, so let's just say you were somewhere in like the 70 to 110 range. You've scaled e-com. Are you on Amazon yet? Yeah. Yeah, so e-com and Amazon. Well, let me give you the progression. Yeah, give me the whole entire range. Medical, doctors first, to educate them on nitric oxide, to gain endorsement. D2C native. Amazon, I called it Humazon, right? So we were a direct-to-consumer in Amazon business. We have a pretty big Amazon business. In fact, we've at least one product in top 20 health and household for five, six years.

1:16:48This goes back to the patients because Amazon, you have to be in that game a long time to reap those benefits. Before you go in, I want to iterate off each one. That doctors, is that like a B2B2C or is that just getting the social proofing for them to talk about? I'm just going to talk about being impatiently patient, knowing we had to get physician endorsement to get consumers to take plant-based blood pressure support products. And is that wholesaling the product too? A little bit, but it was more just educating. It was educating physicians, okay? Then D2C, using the trust badge of the physicians, moved into D2C, built a big D2C business.

1:17:30then into Amazon, told retailers no, no, no, no, no, no, right? How many years of no's? Six or seven years of no's. Wow. And let me tell you why it was no. The best advice that I think I could give your listeners is make sure that you build the brand and you're 100 % confident of the velocity off the shelf before you ever put it in a retailer. You got to be 150 % certain that when you put it on the retail shelf, it's going to sell through because that's all they care about, number one. Number two, one product on a retail shelf doesn't mean jack, okay? So the game is you got to get many. So if the first one's not successful, you aren't going to get the second.

1:18:29And if you don't get the second, you're not going to get the third and the fourth. So you got to make sure 100 % fail safe that the first one's going to be successful. The other reason is the balance of power with retailers is all a function of one thing and one thing only. Can I guess? Please. The sell through. Right on. Yes. Okay. So I just don't get it when, you know, people too early. Always too early. They are out there. Oh, they're out calling on retailers trying to get them to put it on the shelf, trying to get them to put it on the shelf. That is the wrong play, right? It's the wrong play.

1:19:10Let's dive super deep into theirs. I guess we can even get into the nitty gritty on the grocery stores, the GNCs, the Walmarts, et cetera. What was your strategy? So you have, let's just call it your hero evergreen product. obviously you're going to lead with that. Are you going deep and narrow with one specific retailer? Are you starting X amount of stores and incrementally growing on a per product or a per store? Like what was that buildup strategy to get where you're at now? Well, the way I thought about it was this, was I went to specialty retail first, right? Because it really was an assisted sale in the beginning.

1:19:43And that's what kind of took 15 years to get here. The notion of blood pressure support, Blood pressure has always been a pharmaceutical first or pharmaceutical only category. We came along as the disruptor and said, hey, we have a way to provide not only cardiovascular support, but healthy blood pressure support with plant-based ingredients, no side effects, right? That was a disruptive mood, but it took a lot more consumer trust than creatine or a protein product or a vitamin C supplement or something of that sort. So it's just taken longer to get here because we had to gain the public's trust that plant-based ingredients for cardiovascular health could be effective.

1:20:40So we went to specialty first because it was an assisted sale. People weren't accustomed to that notion, and you needed somebody in the store who could at least talk a little bit of the game, right? So there was a very clear progression in our mind that you go to GNC first, and that's where we went. And it was also a way for us to learn before we got into mass, right? Mass should be last, not first. The lessons are too harsh and you have to understand. In most cases, Mass is going to make you show them sell-through success in some other retail format anyway, but not always. So I think the progression was specialty first before you went to Mass and then Club would probably be last.

1:21:30You are in Club right now. Yes. And from a velocity perspective, for the people listening, I don't know if it's benchmark wholesale. benchmark wholesale is 50 points. So then I assume maybe it's 60, 65 or distributor models. Is it just a direct correlation between volume and margin profile? The more volume you go on the bottom, the lesser margin profile? Yeah, and I would also say that as you're thinking about, and you know this because you sell in retail, being as you think about the economics of what you're doing, tier distribution is, I have avoided it until now. It's just too many cheers, too many beaks in the bowl, not enough profit to ensure that you're doing the right marketing to make sure they're sell-through, right?

1:22:17So if you kind of think about it that way, right? Rather than just thinking about time and place utility, which is what retail really is, what you got to think about first is creating velocity and creating demand for your product. You can never compromise the investment you're making in demand creation and giving it away, too much of it away, to stacked distribution. Because they don't, distribution doesn't create demand. They fulfill demand. They don't create it. Yeah, you can't argue that from an awareness perspective, especially if there's like POP or end caps. It helps. Sure. Well, sure, an end cap is going to accelerate velocity.

1:23:00But if the consumer doesn't know what that is and what it's for and have respect for that brand, because I'm the highest price in the category, then they're not going to buy it. I don't care if it's on an end cap or it's not on an end cap. I have not dealt. So we talked off camera about my deals into retail. I don't actually talk directly to the retail. It's through a third party. formerly with my hat company, Mellon, I was East Coast sales and we did all these like sales programs and initiatives with the people on the floor. I have no idea what the state of the relationship is with the brand and the retailer to assist and incentivize in the sell-through.

1:23:43What does that look like nowadays? Like if you're dealing with GNC, are you doing like, I know they have like BOGOs and buy one, get one half off. Like, do you have a team that's directly talking to the people in there to help the sell-through? Like, what does that relationship look like? Well, we have dedicated channel leaders, right, who have relationships with those people. There are brokers still involved. So, there is like a third party, typically, that is very close to the retailer who's helping coach you through the process. But essentially, promotions, call it trade spend, right? Do you familiar with that term?

1:24:18Okay. That's part of the program, but it can also, So you can spend away or give away all your profit in trade spend. So you have to be savvy and you have to be smart and you have to learn through testing what's worth doing and what's not worth doing. Yeah, I got hit with the Costco online roadshow. They made me commit to$20 ,000 of email blasts. And it's just like if you actually look at the EBITDA created through the sales, I said I got awareness. But yeah, definitely net-net, I probably lost money. So looking at that. I call that profitless prosperity. Profitless prosperity. I like that. It's so easy to get intoxicated.

1:25:00You get intoxicated on revenue. And at the end of the day, I'm proud to say our company's always been profitable. We bootstrap the company, but it's been profitable. And at the end of the day, cash is king. It'll always be king. and if you want to control your own destiny as an entrepreneur, you kind of have to walk around with that on your t-shirt. You got to walk the talk around that. I saw somebody wearing a hat yesterday that said EBITDA on it. I really, really liked that hat. That was a great hat. I saw that hat. I've seen that floating around the internet. It's a great hat. Yeah, it is. I think for the people out here listening, a lot of people, we have newer entrepreneurs, seasoned entrepreneurs.

1:25:42Okay. There was, I mean, there was a time I was it. I mean, we grew 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. We blew up. We doubled in 2020. And then what happened? 2020 was the COVID. My brand did really well. The iOS update happened. And then what happened? I was the idiot. I did exactly what you just said. I was like, okay, I need to stay on this train. I need to keep top line revenue growing. And iOS was, I think, the second quarter. Didn't understand and know how hard it was going to hit the brand. I'm like, hey, I'm going to win on Black Friday, Cyber Monday. And that was the learning lesson of it's not about the top, it's about the bottom.

1:26:20And then I would like to pat myself on the back per what you said before, I adapted. And now the company, just maniacal focus on profit, which everybody out there, I hope that's a calling card for this podcast is it's all about profitability. I think we all got reminded of that, don't you? Post-COVID. I think even the big players, the big capital markets, they came back to reality too, that it's about what you can put on the bottom. Yeah. And just further on that, I think what that did, I've seen it so many times, is it just, it bloated companies. They over-raised. And I mean, I know companies that are still not, I mean, I am blessed that we actually, we took in money in 19 and it's worked out well, but I am so blessed that we didn't over-raise them because then you're just in this whole entire game where how are you going to get those people back their money?

1:27:15Do you want to talk about when to raise and when not to? 100%. Let's go. When do you raise money and when do you not raise money? Well, you don't raise money too early. If you're still in concept phase, really, I mean, people think, oh, I'm out of concept phase because I'm selling. I'm selling stuff, right? When in fact, true concept phase is our customers rebuying. I'd never raise money in any business until I cracked the code on the product so well that our customers can't live without our product. Okay? So, that's the first gate, right? Don't raise money until you see customers repurchasing at a pretty high rate.

1:28:02The second gate, from my perspective, is it goes back to the do it right, not do it quick or do it fast, right? Is you raised money too early on a super successful trajectory. What did you just do? You just went on the cheap. I mean, you just cheapened your company, right? Because you gave away the most valuable asset you have other than people. but you gave away your stock too cheap. And believe me when I tell you, if you raise company, if you raise capital too early, you're gonna have to do another one, right? We both know that because once you hit the big trajectory, the big scale up, that's when you're gonna have to raise it again.

1:28:49So my own personal opinion is you don't raise capital until you're ready for the scale up. That may take longer than you want it to take. What about debt? What's your thoughts on debt? I finally, last year, because we were just scaling up at a frenetic rate with retailers, we went from less than 1 ,000 retail doors to 40 ,000 doors in 20 months. The internet says 30 ,000. It's going fast. It's now 40, okay? So, think about the working capital. I was just going to say, this is PL financing. So, you're very savvy. So, you know, accounts receivable. Ooh. Right. Inventory. Oh, OK. So I finally allowed the CFO to take on little itty bitty amount of debt just to fund that ballooning AR.

1:29:46But I'm not a big fan of debt just simply because shit happens. You don't you don't know what's going to happen. Right. So until I was more mature, remember, we're approaching 200 million. So if you put$10 or$15 million of debt on a$200 million business, then that's okay. You put$10 or$15 million of debt on a micro business, that's not okay. Is there a percent of revenue that you would cap out the debt at that you think is acceptable? You know, I'm sure there is. I just haven't done the math on it. But yeah, I'm sure there is. What's your thoughts on founders taking chips off the table? They should.

1:30:25But I think, look, and I get it, right? I mean, I did okay financially, so maybe I'm in a different place. But I'm just a big believer in you don't run the business for an exit. I don't ever talk exit with my team, ever. What I talk with my team is build the greatest company on earth with the best products on earth, with the happiest customers who can't live without our products. If you keep focused on that, that other stuff will take care of itself. It will. If you get too consumed with exit, then you're going to go fast. And when you go fast, you're going to lose. So keep your eye on the prize, man.

1:31:14The eye on the prize is build a great business, right? Then those opportunities for partial, taking some chips off the table, that'll come, right? And then a total exit. That'll come too if you just succeed at the main mission. And I also don't have all the answers. So I want to be clear about that. I don't know everything. I still learn every single day. I don't want to come across like I know everything because I don't. For the people listening, I would argue that he probably has the most experience of any of our guests thus far. So agree to disagree. Yeah, it's probably because I'm the oldest guy you've ever had on this podcast.

1:31:48Who cares that you're 70? The reality is, is you're 55 in this world that we're living in right now. Fair enough. Which I think when I look at agent experience and an engine, there's this graph where it's like, as you get older, you get more experienced. And then as you get older, you get less and less energy. Thus, people like hiring younger people because they got a stronger motor. The fact that you're getting the experience and the energy staying, that's why you're a ninja. Listen, my motor is your motor, man. I guarantee it. You are not going to out motor me. Well, tonight at dinner, you're going to tell me every single thing on your stack.

1:32:22I'm going to take it. And then by default, my motor will be bigger than your motor. You got it. Back to the - I don't believe it, but you got it. If it makes you feel good, say it, Mark. I'm just saying on camera too. I just need whatever protocol you put me on, my whole entire team has to be on as well. Okay, I like that. Agreement on camera. I like that. Cool. Okay, cool. I like it. Okay, good. Secondly, on that rise up, the last 15, 16, 17 years, that revenue rise, I would love for you to just point out, Let's focus on like the finance and number perspectives. Is there anything big that you can look back that was like a big mistake that you would have done differently?

1:32:58I.e. hired too much, too high of SG &A as a percent of revenue or pushed marketing too hard. What are like the big mistakes that you can look back on? I don't know that we've really made any big mistakes in this company. I probably let a sub-brand that's called Superbeats that took off, that really took off, I let that brand be the brand that everybody knew the company by instead of the company's brand name, which is Human. So today we're playing a little bit of catch up on that because I want Human to be the master brand, the well-known brand of the company. That's what I want people to know our company by.

1:33:49Do you want to know something so crazy? I don't know if this will or will not make the final episode, but when I was in GNC today, I saw the human choose, which I'm not going to lie to you. I've not taken those yet. I love the super beats. He immediately showed me the super beats and he called it by super beats. He did not say anything about human. He said super beats. So now there you go. What you're saying is spot on. Saying here's the problem with that. Okay. Now the good news about it is we've sold. A gazillion. Three quarters of a billion doses. The bad news is if you want to move beyond Beats and what Beats do for you, which is primarily expand your blood vessels, dilate your blood, if you want to move beyond that, and I do, you can't do it with a Super Beats name.

1:34:31You have to do it with a human name. Now, human's a damn good company name, don't you think? That's good. Okay. So, one of the things we're working on right now, and you'll see very, very soon, is an elevation in the brand hierarchy of human to the master and then line extensions into other use cases other than blood pressure and sport under that human brand name. That's going to be introduced very shortly, very soon. And you're talking about just talking to a different ICP with the same... So let's take an example. Yeah. Okay. If I'm in the business of dealing with consumers that have elevated blood pressure, do you think they might also have cholesterol issues or be concerned about cholesterol?

1:35:24Right. Well, who would they trust to deliver a cholesterol solution? Us, right? So, same with metabolic blood sugar. Anything to do with that 60 ,000 miles of blood vessels that we talked about, that's where we're coming from. And those new line extensions, just to give more clarity to the audience, you test, iterate, and optimize on D2C once it's proven, then you bring it into retail. No, not necessarily. I learn from the consumers in D2C because I can talk directly to them. But no, I don't necessarily have to run through that progression anymore. And I think when you think about this progression, right, zero, more or less, maybe 1 ,000, to 40 ,000 retail doors, full retail shelf presence, then you bring the extensions.

1:36:19You can do the math. It's good math.

1:36:26If, back to the point, if that product or those products you put on those 40 ,000 shells, high velocity sell through, what's that retailer willing to do? When you come up with a new product, what are they willing to do? Take it immediately. That's right. We need to have an offline conversation about the 22 immutable laws of marketing. I used to love that book and I feel like it's just so wrong in this day and age now. It talks about the law of Linus. extension and it's like completely different now. Are there any rules anymore? I want to finish up on retail and just get a big learning kind of holistically.

1:37:02Like what has been your biggest lesson with retail partnerships period? What is a holistic lesson that you can give to the audience? Outside of it's about the sell through not the sell in. They don't care about you. And you're a tool. It's as simple as that. and you're only as good as yesterday's sell-through. So I think at the end of the day, if you have a strategy, if you are able to convey that strategy, they'll listen to your two or three PowerPoint slides, but they don't care. They don't care. And it's the buyers, those retail buyers have almost unlimited power to control your destiny, right?

1:37:48So again, I'm just going to repeat what I already said. The only thing that matters and the only way you can ever gain true power in a retail relationship is high-velocity sell-through. That's it. Don't fall in love with your own story. Fall in love with your own sell-through velocity. It's not about Walmart having the power. It's about that one individual human. That buyer controls your existence, guys. They control your existence, your life. If they want to go to an$800 dinner, go to an$800 dinner. They literally could do anything they want. They have all the leverage and it's always that one person.

1:38:30It's so crazy. Do you know, Mark, that it is the strangest scenario in all of business, I think, right? Is that a junior level, maybe, buyer, has that kind of power and control. Name another area where someone at that level would have that level of power and control. I don't think you can name one. And I joke all the time, they'll never know, and they probably don't listen to this, but it's just that one human's subjective opinion on how they woke up this morning. Maybe they like me, maybe they don't. And they literally control your destiny. So guys, make sure you're super, super tactical. You should probably listen to the Robert Greene 48 Laws of Power episode on how you approach that individual human.

1:39:12Because it's not about Walmart, it's about who is that buyer. Well, here's how I approach it. Yeah, let's hear it. Okay. Here's my rank on Amazon. Here's how I sold through at these three retailers. That's it. Because that's all they care about. That's your approach. You can't go in there, especially if you're talking mass, right? You might be able to do that in specialty. But if you're going to go in mass, man, you better have the proof that you've got the mojo and that you're going to produce sales. In fact, think about it this way. I think they want lower risk. They know that the failure rate of products off the retail shelf is pretty high.

1:39:55So how do they win? How do they succeed? How do they get promoted? Well, by managing risk and optimizing opportunities. So when you go in there to talk about your stuff, talk about risk. Hey, I'm offering you something that is very low risk because look where we are on Amazon Velocity and look where we are at these other two retailers. Love that. Great advice. I want to dive a little bit more into just some key things on financial management. If you were offline for a full week, no phone, and you only got three numbers from your CFO, president, CO, whoever it is, what are those three numbers? So, certainly, what were sales?

1:40:42I mean, sales puts oxygen in your lungs, right? So, you have to have sales. Cash balance and cash balance. Not EBITDA or contribution margin? You said I was gone for a couple weeks, right? Wow. Under that? I can interpolate because I know the starting point and the ending point. I can interpolate what EBITDA is from cash because I know that, and you should as a CEO, you should know the mechanisms of action and the interworkings of those. But I want to know my cash balance. As far as that goes, I think understanding and knowing as a CEO to not get overly crazy if something doesn't do good for a day, for a weekend, for a week.

1:41:29What are the lens in which you look at? Are you allowing stuff to breathe for what? Is it a month? Is it two weeks? When do you get on your team for not hitting the numbers? A month. There was a day when it was a day. I mean, when the company was this big, it was every single day. But today it's a month. You know, I do an MBR every month. What's an MBR? It's like a QBR except done monthly. You know what a QBR is, right? Business review, quarterly business review. It's a formal, there's a formality to it. I provide them with a template, right? so that I get a consistent application across the entire business.

1:42:07But I do MBRs. Most businesses do QBRs. I do MBRs because I think month is frequent enough. QBR is too infrequent. Four times a year isn't enough. I want you to give me one more metric though. So you have revenue, you have cash. You want me to give you another one? I want you to give me one more just because you're a wise man. Inventory. Inventory is the work of the devil. I'm a single unit dropship. It's a blessing. It's the work of the devil. Too much inventory is the work of the devil. And my business is the work of the devil because it expires. Oh, wow. It expires. So you have a life. What is the shelf life?

1:42:46Two years. In some cases, less. I mean, it just depends on the product and the format, right? So chews and liquids, and they have different. In the computer business, like when I was at Dell, it was the work of the devil. because you had the product cycles in those days were less than a year long. If you were long on a motherboard or long on a hard drive or long on a random access memory and it was always something new to replace it, you wrote it down 7 to 80 % of its value. So that's where I kind of gained that perspective on inventory. I want to slide into, before we get into this last sprint, I want to move into this partnership with Texas.

1:43:30You signed a massive partnership with them. Let's just give you the floor. What does that deal mean to you and why is it so important? Well, what was most interesting about it, Mark, was that I've been partners with the University of Texas since the very first day that I started the business. In fact, the University of Texas is a shareholder in the company, right? Small, but they're a shareholder in the company. But it was what this partnership with athletics, though, enabled us to do is really make us the Gatorade of the West. I mean, it really, for the very first time, allowed us to go out and talk about it in a way that was broad and reached the masses.

1:44:17By being able to put it out there with the University of Texas Athletics, it's able to say, okay, on a national basis, that people understand that our science is credible. I had no idea. I watched college football and college basketball, like from a notoriety perspective and a prestige perspective. Texas is up there with like the Yankees and the Cowboys. I had no idea. Wasserman study, three highest ranked by recognition sports brands, Olympics, Dallas Cowboys, University of Texas Longhorns. Recently saw an article a couple of weeks ago. I forget if it was Forbes. I think it was Forbes. Valued collegiate athletic programs as if they could be actually valuation.

1:45:05They could be bought or traded. University of Texas was half a billion higher than the next ranked entity. So I've always known the University of Texas sold the most T-shirts, most, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the trust quotient with the University of Texas is extremely high, and that's what we're amplifying with this partnership. And it's on, if you look at the NCAA passed a rule where for the very first time that these colleges could put corporate logos on their fields, the vast majority of universities that are doing it are putting different corporate logos on different fields. This partnership, because of the way the University of Texas felt about us being Texas born, we're on every single playing surface.

1:45:55So it's football, volleyball, baseball, basketball, women's basketball, women's track, men's track. I mean, it's every single sport. deep and narrow. When you're doing partnerships like this, I think the authenticity is there in spades. I mean, I watched a video, that miracle molecule that was word for word from a dietician or nutritionist from University of Texas. Taking that all kind of out of the picture, the authenticity, which I think is a given it must be, what are those key integrations that you see value in with a partnership like that? Is it a use case and a case study that the athletics are using it and it's tried and true and you could sell it elsewhere.

1:46:35Yeah. That and the science factor that we talked about so many times today, I want people to trust us, that we're real, we're credible, we have a super high standard. Think about the science standards of the University of Texas, right? So, in essence, it's a borrowing of the Texas brand, if you will, to establish the ultimate trust. I mean, I like to think about us as the trustable and most of the other companies in this business, the untrustables. I think this sets us apart from everyone else. Yeah, I think the association, yeah, you just amplify the trust. Plus, you talk about University of Texas Athletics.

1:47:20They've won 20 national championships using our products. That product you told me you took and you felt the difference in endurance. They've been using it for 10 years, actually 12 years. They've won 20 national championships using a product. So their trust in us is based on the fact they know our products really work. Beat sport, guys. Love it. I'm going to fire off a bunch more random questions here. So like a lightning round? It's a lightning round. It's coming. I guess staying on the health and science side, What is One Health protocol that every entrepreneur should start today? You've got to have an outlet of athletic or physical exercise.

1:48:08My preference has been non-team sport, individual sport, so that you can check two boxes. You can check the physical box and solitude is critical to the human body and the human mind. I paddle by myself. I paddle out in the ocean. I paddle five miles out into the ocean. I know people think I'm crazy, right? I mean, out, right? But that's the solitude that I seek because it's important combined with the physical exercise. I love that. What's one question you ask yourself before making a big decision? That's also an easy question, okay? Before I make a decision, I force myself. Now it's easy because I've trained myself to do it.

1:48:58Early on, you have to train yourself to do it. Before I make a decision, I say, what are the one-year ramifications of this decision? What are the two-year ramifications of this decision? And what are the three-year ramifications of this decision? you have to ask yourself. As the CEO, you have to ask yourself that. Because that gets back to doing it right versus quick. It also has everything to do with filtering out, making immediate gratification decisions that are wrong versus long-term decisions that are right. Yeah, I have 10 things written on my whiteboard. And one of them, they're just reminders from an awareness perspective, is think long-term.

1:49:39is just not making any decisions in the short term. Just looking under a long-term lens. It's hard. You know, you're a pretty introspective guy. I was not always like this. He's laughing over there. Yeah, well, you're pretty self-aware. And I think self-awareness is powerful too. I agree. All right, last three questions. Favorite book or podcast and why? Good to great. Good to great. Good to great. Most of those books are just such a crock, right? Let's face it, right? I mean, they're just a crock. They have maybe you read the whole book and maybe you get a half of one thing out of it, right? And usually the books are written, they have one idea or one valuable idea and they write a whole book around it so they can monetize it.

1:50:33But that book was just chock full from start to finish and I loved it. For people listening, good to great, red book. Jim Collins is the author. I'm going to link that down below in the description. Entrepreneur or brand that you want to give flowers to and why?

1:50:52Big spot here. Big spot. Probably Nutrafol. You familiar with Nutrafol? I'm envisioning the logo, but I don't know what they do or what it is. It's a multi-billion dollar brand now. Is that the white bottle with the blue writing? It's the hair brand, right? Hair growth brand. Natural, right? They offered one of the first alternatives to drugs with side effects for hair growth. You know Nutrafol. They run television ads all the time. I got a hair transplant. I highly recommend that. I went straight hair transplant. Okay. Anyway. Multi-billion dollar brand. And five years ago, they were probably less than$100 million in revenue.

1:51:33Wow. They were acquired by a big CPG. Last I heard, I think there were three, I want to say there were three billion. I mean, from 100 million to three billion in five years, that's impressive. And they redefined the category. So I want to give a shout out to Aaron Paul. He's the one that introduced us. Aaron Paul from Paul Street. I got introduced to him from Kent from NeuroGum, another great episode. Aaron has been someone I've been talking to a lot lately. He is a, you want to talk about curious and adaptability and malleability. we have really really long interesting conversations about a lot of stuff and i feel like that is one cerebral dude yeah he's deep he's very smart way ahead of his age curve and experience curve think about this too he knew that we would get along like he could have picked any he could he could have picked anybody and he's like no no he's like i gotta introduce this guy joel you and hamburger now.

1:52:30Oh, interesting. There we go. And we're here. Let's go. Oh, interesting is that. Let's go. Love you, Aaron. Last question. How big can human be? Oh, it's a billion dollar business. Multi-billion probably. It's just awareness. It's just creating awareness with people that cardiovascular, 60 ,000 miles of blood vessels, that cardiovascular health is everything health. And it's for everybody, whether you're 15 or you're 120. It's foundational. That's one of the things, Mark, that I get super excited about, but I also get frustrated about, is it's for everyone. It's foundational to your health. There's not a single organ in your body, not a single cell in your body that doesn't function better with more oxygen and better blood flow.

1:53:28and yet most people are on to a cleanse or they're on to a natural deodorant or they're on to this or that or the latest supplement that's repped by a pro athlete when they need to just pay attention to the most important function in their body and that's their cardiovascular system. I hope we can do our part in giving more awareness. Guys, for anybody out here that enjoyed the episode, Tell us your favorite part down below. I'm going to give away some of your product. I just started using it I absolutely love it. Dude, I had an amazing amazing time. Everybody's going to love this episode It's been fun here with you today mark and I really appreciate you having me Oh man, appreciate you.

1:54:10Oh, it was awesome What's up guys if you guys got this far in the episode? I would assume that you enjoyed it if you got any value It would mean the world if you hit the subscribe button give it a like post a comment tell a friend We could keep going bigger bigger guests bigger locations more value See you in the next episode.