VP of Revenue at AdRoll on empathy, accountability, pipegen, and more

0:00It's sort of crazy how people end up in sales and most, including me, end up in sales on accident. I mean, I, at 18 years old, as a summer job, ran a house painting business. I worked for a company where I did door-to-door sales and that was pretty cool. You know, I made$30 ,000 over the summer. I learned a lot about, you know, just what it's like working. It was 100 % commission-based, you know, so I learned a lot about working in that type of environment and how much I loved it. And then I just also love the art and science of sales, right? The interacting with people, following the techniques, the training, making it your own, the parts of it that are fairly repeatable, the parts of it that are not, and everywhere in between.

0:49And today's guest is no different. He actually started out as a programmer, which is crazy. Mark Haas, who I met when we did a big rollout with Nextroll, we trained their entire sales org, including account managers on Outbound PipeGen. He started as a programmer and then moved into an SE role. And then we're going to talk about his journey today at Tableau, in Quarta, Nextroll, everything that he's done to level up into a third line leader. But before we get to that. My name is Jason Bay. You're listening to Outbound Squad. We're all about helping you turn complete strangers into paying customers.

1:27So we really believe that, you know, pipe gen is the, it's the lifeblood of an organization, depending on your org, anywhere between a third and two thirds or more of the pipeline is sourced by sales. That's what we talk about on this podcast. We've had the privilege of working with some really awesome companies like Shopify, Zoom, Rippling, Gong, and smaller startups just building out their first SDR, AE teams and everywhere in between. And the number one thing that we help with is PipeGen. So this is part of a series I did in person where one of the things this year that I've been very focused on at AppOnSquad is really elevating our brand.

2:09And there's been two things that I've made a focus. One is getting in person with more of our clients and recording content, doing dinners, that sort of stuff. And then the second thing is really elevating the podcast, right? Making sure that we're getting on folks that have like just really robust experience. They're in the field, they're practitioners, they're doing the thing on a daily basis. And Mark is one of those people. So we got a chance to meet up in person when I was in Dallas. We also had a dinner with a bunch of people and he actually knows a lot of the folks that I invited to the dinner, which is hilarious.

2:48Just the family tree that people have developed in their career. But we talked about Outbound PipeGen and what's working with that. He has some really good things that they do around creating accountability around it. We talked about plays that they do outside of cold outbound. So events, customer conferences, customer dinners, leveraging execs, board intros, etc. We talked about his weekly rhythm as a VP of revenue. And then we had some really fun rapid fire questions as well. Mark was a really great guest, had a lot of fun with this episode. I have two things for you before we get to the interview.

3:23One is free. If you're a rep or a manager and you're looking for really tactical things that are working right now for outbound pipe gen, check out our free masterclass. It's set in a studio for around six hours. We edited it down to about three hours of content. It's the most tactical stuff, especially for free, that you're going to find out there on how to do outbound. Everything from using the phone to email, social, et cetera, securing meetings, finding the right fit accounts, leveraging AI to do all of that, and everywhere in between. That's at outboundsquad.com slash masterclass. Go ahead and check it out.

3:58Our goal is to get that in the hands of every seller and frontline leader in SaaS. class we really want to just spread the word around the stuff that we're doing at outbound squad so that's that's our gift to you the second thing is if you want to work with us and you've been a listener of the podcast you hear some of the stuff that we're doing you want us to help apply some of the things that we talk about in this episode i would love to chat with you um the thing that we really do best is either helping a company go outbound and really formalize that motion for the first time by helping them implement our methodology.

4:34It's called too good to ignore. Our average client will increase pipeline sourced, qualified pipeline sourced within 90 days by 20 or more percent. We actually just wrapped up in engagement with around 50 account executives, and they increased pipeline sourced by 121%, 121%. So we roll out the methodology, we train your team, we completely tailor the training so you're getting the training as if it's coming from in-house that's how customized and tailored it is and then we work a lot with the frontline leaders and enablement to make sure that there's a good system to reinforce everything if that sounds interesting to you you can send me an email jason at outbound squad.com would be happy to set up a time to chat with you again we've done this for some really cool companies like shopify rippling zoom gong and then startups just getting their first outbound motion going as well So send me an email, Jason at outbound squad.com.

5:31Let's get to the interview.

5:41So the most interesting thing I learned about you when we're prepping for this is you're like, dude, I used to be a programmer. So we up until the last time we talked, I know we work together, but I don't think I ever had like a one-on-one conversation with you. So I was like, oh, Mark isn't like he's got an interesting background. So let's start there. How did you talk about the transition from programmer into sales? Like why you decided to get into sales and all of that good stuff? Yeah, it was actually a little bit of like dialing down the tech over time. So, you know, starting out programmers like hardcore Java, Visual Basic, things like that.

6:19Visual Basic. Yeah. So that was just what I did coming out of college. And then, you know, finally transitioned into the tech world at Informatica and started like, you know, doing consulting and started to now have to, you know, be both technical and consultative to clients and doing data warehousing projects. And so over time, it was just kind of doing more and more to kind of help clients. And I think what got me into sales like at the end was just, A, I had a fascination with a lot of the reps that I was working with and just, you know, the challenges that they were facing. I'm one of those that always likes to constantly push myself and challenge myself, you know.

6:55And so this was just another way for me to like really step up and do something different, do something to really kind of challenge my growth. And so, yeah, the opportunity opened itself up. I remember I looked at the VP who I'd worked with before and it's like, I want that job. Two days later, I had it. so so was it the fact that you got to work more with people and you were like oh this is like i'm maybe more of a people person than i thought i was or yeah i think so like you know you're always challenging yourself in the tech field don't get me wrong like there's it's constantly evolving um but you know sales is a roller coaster it's the ebbs and flows and like how do you manage through those ebbs and flows and so for me that was exciting uh you know and i really like that i really liked trying to help solve problems for for people you can do that on the consulting side too.

7:43It's just, this was just a better way for me to come in and meet more clients, help more people, and provide for my family in a different way too. So one of the things that we talked about in your first sort of, I guess, SE role, for lack of a better way of saying it, is it sounded like there was a lot of, I have to kind of create my own frameworks and stuff. There wasn't any kind of path laid out for you in terms of like, Hey, here is how you need to support a sales rep when you hop on a call and here's like our frameworks and like all of that kind of stuff. So did you like that? I did. I mean, um, I had a great boss, uh, Robbie Mohan was his name now or was his name then it's Robbie Marwaha now.

8:29And, uh, you know, he just really kind of pushed us to, to take outside the box and come up with some different frameworks. Uh, it was like, there was three of us from the consulting side and there was three from the sales consultant organization and we formed this team and you know you had to come up with value frameworks how do you go into clients and like do conduct interviews and figure out like you know what they could potentially spend on the product that would you know equate up to these large enterprise deals so we didn't know we were just doing a lot of these different frameworks to see what stuck working with the the account executives and that was what was exciting as I got to work with some of the best account executives at Informatica and just you know became a sponge there and you know obviously it had high visibility all the way up to sohe babasi which you know one of the the tech legends i think in silicon valley so that was uh it was a great opportunity and it was really the launch pad for me getting into sales yeah i love that man so let's talk about you became an ae at tableau and then the jump to regional director there's a lot of lessons that we've talked about that you learned there and I'm curious for you I think I might have shared this about myself I was really bad sales manager when I became a manager it was like the lesson that I was taught was your your biggest strength as a rep will be your team's biggest weakness because you're just not going to think about it work on it etc yeah and then the other thing I didn't really understand how I how bad I was at it I guess it's just like like motivating and coaching people you know it's it's so much more abstract to me at least at that time it was especially than like running a deal and like working a deal and like you know all of that kind of objection handling like all of that kind of stuff what was that jump like for you into that first like you know uh frontline leader role yeah so i um i actually got passed up the first time we talked a little bit about this so um i had interviewed and so i we had great leaders at tableau um barry sour wine sean hughes like there was very much a people element and it came all the way down from the ceo christian chabeau just like you know a lot of empathy and leaders like true leadership and so like what you're talking about is a lot of times you'll promote that uh that top rep and then they get into that role and they're like they just want to create clones of themselves and you know you forget everybody does things a little bit differently And so I think, you know, because I had that, that technical side and that right brain, that was something that, that Barry recognized right off the bat was like, you know, I think if he would have promoted me at that time, I would have just instantly been like, you know, managing them, like, you know, through reports and spreadsheets and trying to make them to do exactly what I was doing.

11:12you know and i remember at the the last part of the interview um when he's like yeah we're not gonna we're not gonna give you the role we'll give you the opportunity next year and he's like i want you to go back and i want you to really think about what the the word leadership means and then you're gonna come back in a year and you're gonna describe that to me and so that gave me that was powerful that gave me pissed off though oh of course i was like you know one of my good friends in the industry todd graken he ended up getting the job out of the bay area and i was like how was the guy in the Bay Area managing the South Central and he's a fantastic leader.

11:45Yeah. You know, but again, I think like what you described, um, Barry knew it. Like if he put me in that position right then and there, it could have been bad for him overall. And so like I had that full year to really reflect on what leadership means to me and come back with a, with a definition. And I feel like it made me a much better leader, made me more empathetic, really focusing on coaching and improving my teams as opposed to just like, you know, managing things through spreadsheets and trying to create little clones of myself. Yeah. That's such a instinctual thing. I think to do as a first time leader is to just create the instruction manual and it just doesn't exist for you're dealing with people and there's no step-by-step instruction manual, as you know, that works.

12:28Like, so what does leadership mean to you? You know, for me, the definition I gave to him was like, you know, I want to have a lasting impact. I want to know that like it's sales is a, sometimes people come and go, right. It's constantly evolving, but I want to know that like I had an impact on the rep. Somebody goes back and says like, you know, Mark House was a great leader, like, or would always want to come back and work for me. So you can't do that if you're just managing people and you're just making them feel, I don't know, robotic, right? Like you truly care about people, you truly care about their careers and making them better.

13:00Like you're going to have a lasting impact on them. And so that was kind of the thing like I you know the people I'm talking about here Barry Robbie like a lot of these guys like great leaders that you know stick in my brain I want people that work for me to have that same kind of thought this might be maybe the first thing that we kind of dig into a bit how do you think about and how have you thought about empathy as a leader and how do you how do you tactically kind of build those relationships with people that go beyond the surface level you know one-on-one and team meeting that you do that's very you know management by nature versus versus leading how do you how do you approach that and think I mean a lot of people will talk about this on LinkedIn a lot of the good leaders like Adam Carr is one that I follow at Apollo you know and he I saw him post about this like you have to truly care about them like outside of the job right you have to understand there's things that could be going on in their lives with their family yeah with their health you just don't know because people don't often talk about it so you know I this goes all the way back to when I was at tableau like I've always made it a point to start off the one-on-ones to really just kind of understand like what's going on in your life like what you know how are you doing like how would you rank yourself like on a one to five scale in terms of like you're happy you're not happy because you that kind of really sets the stage for the conversation.

14:25Um, and it also explains a lot of what you might be saying behaviorally or work wise, um, that, you know, you could come on and out on them really, really hard, but you know, there's something else that might be distracting them. Yeah. Do you know what attunement is? Attunement? No. So attunement is something that I've learned through therapy and like, mostly because my wife is like, you're not attuning to me and it's, I love you, Sarah. And it's, it's really this like, Hey, I'm feeling a certain way emotionally right now. And you're not really tuned in to that. And it sounds like a really big part of your process is to like really attune to the person.

15:05It only takes a couple of minutes. Like most of the time it's pretty obvious just by someone's face where, like you said, if I need to have an accountability conversation, I might think about that a little bit differently.

15:18If I something that you've had to learn how to do intentionally or did that come kind of naturally to you like because I don't want to gloss over this topic it's this is not a I don't think this is an easy thing for a lot of leaders to do no it just goes back to that year that I had to really kind of study leadership and just really like read different books on leadership talk to talk to Barry's you recommend oh gosh there's so many I know there are so many the one that the last one Night of Red was actually on George Washington. It's a long, long read. Mr. Wooden Teeth. Yes. I don't even know if he actually had wooden teeth or if that's a myth or something.

15:56I don't know. I think a lot of back then, but it was fascinating just to, you know, just see like the big thing with him is how many times he had to fail before he became the great war leader that he was like, people don't talk about that, but he had constant failures, lost tons of battles, you know? And so So that's very similar to what we might face, you know, in day to day job, you know, that helps make you better. But I would say just going back to the question on the leadership side, it's just I study those things. And then it just gets back to like observing some of the folks that manage me and like how Barry would always manage not only his leaders, but down the ICs.

16:33And he would always make a point to to just ask how you were doing, what's going on with your family and things like that, which to me was really powerful. you know he could be a really intimidating guy you know in a conversation but you could just see how much he really cared about every single one of us and he had a massive organization and so like that just stuck with me and I realized like that's got to be a part of like how I lead people um because I truly do care about everybody that has worked for me that I work with um they're great people I like to go to companies that um have great culture great people and so you know I want to be authentic.

17:08So I love this. And one thing that I've had to really kind of learn the hard way to do over time is like, you have this really great relationship that you build with people. And sometimes that can make the tough conversations harder. Sure. Um, how do you, how do you approach the hard conversations, the person that's not performing or showing up and doing what they need to do, who I care about personally, but I also need to hold accountable. How do you, how do you approach difficult conversations? You just have to be honest with them. You know, if you care about them, like you, you'll want to be upfront.

17:47You don't want to sugarcoat it. You want to let them know that, you know, um, Hey, like sales is the easiest accountability metric. You have a number, you hit the number, right? It's like a lot of other jobs. It's, you know, it might be a little bit of gray, but it's, it's very black and white. So, you know, you want them to be successful. So like you just have to have a very direct conversation with them about their performance. They might not like it, but, you know, at the end of the day, you're helping them because we also know that some people might not be successful in one job, but they might go to another job and have great success.

18:19So like I want to make sure that I keep their coaching in the context of knowing how can I help them here at the company they're working with me, but also I help them, you know, in the future at any other company they may go. yeah too so how does it feel for you before you have those conversations do you get nervous before i used to not anymore no i mean when i first started as a frontline leader like you you gotta they're gonna be your friends but you gotta realize like that you're still their boss right and like you gotta you gotta separate that out um i think naturally as you get into a frontline leader you'll you'll feel a little bit of that um but at the end of the day you're there to to help lead them, help manage them.

19:01And, um, you get a little bit nervous and over time it starts to ease up. Yeah. Performance at the end of the day, it's like, you have to perform in order for us to, uh, in order for things to be cordial, at least in a work setting, you know? I mean, your success is dependent upon the people you're hiring their performance, right? There's, you know, so you got to hire really good people that, uh, you know, hopefully they can just manage themselves. Like that's, that's where you want to get them to is like managing their own performance and so that they're self-aware that if they're falling behind or their head things like that one other thing I'm curious about related to this because you know people development is something you're really passionate about I try to have especially with the people that work for us now so like Amanda Clara Aaron the folks that do a lot of our client-facing delivery I always try to think about like there's kind of the skills the direct skills of working with a client let's say So for us, that's like, dude, how do you show up on a workshop call, right?

20:00Like, are you great at building the playbooks and like all of that kind of stuff? Are you great at like leading the leaders, et cetera? But then there's also like stuff that's more pure soft skills where like one thing that we were working on a lot beginning of this year and end of last year is I said, hey, I think overall our executive presence and how we show up with a client, it's like this soft skill that really has this like domino effect on all of the other stuff. If we don't show up and have executive presence, it's kind of hard to do all the other stuff and it's a huge amplifier. Do you think about like the people that you lead, like the soft skills component of it too?

20:41Like when you spot some, yeah, tell me more about that because that's, I think, a very underrated thing to do where you're just like, we can just be really focused on the skills of doing the job and not think about a little bit like, well, how isn't this person showing up or what could they improve that would kind of have like a multiplier effect on all of that stuff? How do you think about that? I mean, yeah, because I mean, across sales, there's a lot of different personalities, right? So you can get some that are like, just, you know, very passionate, I'll put it that way. And so like that passion can come off and rub off the wrong way, especially some of the business partners or maybe on clients.

21:16And so like, they might not be aware that they're doing it, right? They have the best intentions on earth in terms of execution. And so like you have to spot those things and you just, you coach them through different areas. It may be like facial expressions in terms of what's going on, could be language, could be a number of different things. But again, you're, you're trying to help them in terms of their growth and changing things up so that they, they can be better at what they do. So you just have to observe the different soft skills, of your leaders, your reps. The great things, you have tools like Gong and other ones that are out there that give you that ability to see what's going on more at scale than when I first started.

22:01Yeah, basically when you were first starting, you probably had to ride shotgun with people, I would imagine. All the time, yeah, all the time, yeah. Which there's something definitely to that, for sure. Yeah, I mean, a lot of that's coming back. I mean, people want to be in person, like what we're doing right now. Yeah. So that's great, because you can be out in the field. You can observe things. But even so, these tools help you see what's going on at scale. It just gives you the ability to coach much easier than it was in the past. Totally. Love it. So let's talk about your first role as a second and third line leader.

22:39Some of the stuff that we've talked about, I mean, it's interesting. I'm curious where delegation, hiring the right people, we talked about staying close to deals, all of that kind of stuff. The first thing that I want to ask you about is the hiring component. What do you look for in a great manager or second-line leader? What are some of the maybe non-obvious things? I mean, it goes back to part of what I was questioned on. like do they do they really understand leadership how do they approach yeah like coaching um they you need to have some experience in that role yeah um to to be able to understand like how do you lead leaders and how do you coach leaders because every element of it is like if your third line you're coaching your second line your second line is coaching your first line and then so on and so forth and so there's some of it i mean a lot of it like in my cases was reaching out to people i knew in my network and saying like who kind of fits this this billing also like I'm very process oriented.

23:44Yeah. You know, I believe in, in MedPIC, I believe in creating the playbooks and making sure that you provide the structure around the way that the team needs to perform. So you're looking for people that understand that as well, uh, but also have that element of coaching. And then it's just, it's really asking questions, um, and throughout the interview process and having other people involved to, to vet it out. So it's, it's imperfect. I mean, I mean, sellers are sellers for a reason. And so I've joked internally that sometimes some of the best interviews are the people that are not necessarily the best sellers.

24:17I know. It's crazy. Vice versa. Yeah. What are some of the things that you feel like can be taught versus things that you want as like a default setting, so to speak? Well, I mean, you hear on LinkedIn a lot of people talking about the sales athlete. you know, grit, intelligence, coachability, like those individuals can be taught. You want to hire for that. Um, they have that competitive drive and so they want to come in and they can learn almost anything there. So if you focus in on those folks, you'll be good. And you can teach pretty much anything that you want to teach them. Um, you know, empathy and I guess you could coach to it, but there is also like a little bit of a natural, um, do you have it or not type of component because you know i've i have seen people and leaders that just um there is there's not much empathy yeah you know those can be organizations that just drive reps in and out like constant revolving doors because like you just don't feel like they actually care for you so um it's you know it could just be something that it's very difficult for them to grasp yeah so like the empathy coachability is something I'm really big on too.

25:31And I really believe that maybe you can teach it, but I don't want it. That's not something that I want to teach. It's like, it needs to be there from the get go that I'm open to feedback. I want feedback. I want coaching. And it's like, you get a sales work full of people like that, including leaders. And it's just, there's just so much less resistance with stuff, you know? Yeah. I look a lot of times for people that, you know, growing up, um, really are involved in athletics or something competitive could be dance could be um cheer could be a lot of different things like did they have something that really kind of drove them there because i think that that becomes really important but also like there's a coaching aspect of it like you're talking about right they had a coach that taught them they wanted to be taught and so if they have that background it at least helps me understand that like they've got they've got drive they've had to listen to people before to help them improve and so you know it's another signal for me that I'm kind of in the right ballpark.

26:28Yeah. So let's take us to your current role as VP of revenue at NextRole. One of the things that we were talking about was your ability as a VP to stay close to deals and be strategic. And the thing that I shared with you that I see a lot with several of our clients and folks that we just talked to is that it's the exec that reps don't want in their deals. And like, that's a very bad spot to be in where there's something too. I just would love when my VP would just show me that like, he's still got it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it was like a multiplier on the deal and it really helped having the VP there.

27:10Um, there's a lot of different ways that we could take this, but I'm just curious, like, how do you think about your involvement and like staying close to like what the IC is experiencing? How do you feel about that and think about that and then how do you kind of prioritize your time and where you choose to spend your time and yeah because there's a lot of other stuff that you're doing as a pb too yeah but i mean at the end of the day like the number one thing is you got to hit your your revenue targets so like um knowing the deal staying close to the deals being involved in the deal especially the ones that are critical is important so um you're right i mean it's in terms of just like jumping into a deal like there are some that just like want to get in into the deal and there's no prep session or anything that was created and it just creates absolute chaos, like, yeah, of course the rep's never going to have you back.

27:57So like, it's really important to me, like if I'm going to get involved in a deal or I ask my leaders to get involved in a deal, like you do a prep call, you understand what the role is. So oftentimes if I'm going to get into a deal, it's because there is a, another senior executive on that call. And so part of my involvement is really to make sure that like the way, what I'm speaking about is the things this executive cares about, which is the higher level stuff. It's hard as a rep, right? I put my old hat back on like I'm thinking very tactically I'm thinking about what the champions pains are and like but that's what the the exec on that side asked them to go solve for it And so they want to understand from a higher level.

28:34How are you going to be able to help them? And so having the title being able to kind of talk that talk It lends itself to helping the rep and then you can look at it from a different lens You can you know as an exec you can start to read how's the champion reacting? How is the executive buyer reacting on this call? You know, we all know as sellers, we get really emotional about these deals. And so you've got to have their boss, maybe the second line leader and myself, like involved to really help them. And gaining trust is really about making sure that you have those prep calls. Everybody understands their roles.

29:08Maybe do a little bit of a rehearsal with them. Talk about like, what if they bring this up? What are we going to say? You know, those type of things to make sure we account for as much of the call or what's going to happen on the call as we can. So for those listening and watching to this that might be reps, let's say, what are your expectations going into that prep call that the rep should either send to you beforehand or have prepared? It's really the elements of MedPick, right? As much as what they know. I mean, they should have a good understanding of what is the pain we're trying to solve for, first and foremost.

29:40You know, are we really working with a champion? what makes them think that we're working with the champion yeah um what who's the competition involved uh do we know kind of that decision process because a lot of times you know we're afterward you've heard the the three whys right and so we're trying to basically help the champion change why now yeah yeah so there's an element of that with the the champion but there's also an element of vetting that out with the executive yeah and making sure like you know did we capture everything and so like we want to have a good understanding of that because we get hit with surprise a lot of times especially in in what i do today uh the ad tech element of it is we could be working with a champion that basically says hey i gotta hit these metrics out here and or we might be able to convince them to hit certain metrics that we're really good at yeah the cfo and the cmo might be thinking of something totally different so when we go live we start to to to actually work towards those metrics, then we find out, oh no, the CFO and CMO actually wanted different metrics.

30:41That creates a problem. Yeah. So you're thinking ahead also past what a rep is thinking about naturally because, you know, as an account executive, I just want to get the business in the door. I'm not thinking about what - I own retention too. So absolutely, I'm thinking about that. Yeah. Okay. So how do you, if we backtrack just one step, How do you if you could get as tactical as you as you can here? Like on a Monday when you're planning out your week or whenever you kind of like look at the game plan for the week How do you decide where to spend like what deals to like invest in best your time into?

31:17We're just looking at how they progress like I again I'm not trying to create a pitch for Gong, but we use it there And so I have a like a deal scorecard at my level and so I gotta look at the deals that are out there We are we progressing them what you know, what's Gong telling me in terms of? the sentiment on these, these deals versus what I'm hearing from my leaders and from the reps. And so like, I'm really starting to look at that because, you know, I've got to make sure that those are coming across the table. And when I say deals, it's not just new business. It's also big key renewals. Um, and looking at how are the customers feeling about, um, our support, how our product innovation and things like that.

31:55And so, um, it's just about setting out time to, to help with those deals. Like we have on the post-sale slide, we have three different R365 calls that like for, for post-sales. One's in eight, one's in APAC in Sydney. So it's late. And then we have a North America, Europe, and then we have a separate one as well. And so I tend to all those and we make sure that we go through all these key customers and I'm offering inputs and advice in terms of what I think is going to move the needle asking the team, can I reach out to somebody? Can I, Can I have a conversation with somebody to help? And similarly on the new business side, what can I do to help?

32:32And balancing out the time, it's imperfect. We talked about this. When I first started here, it was wall-to-wall meetings. I mean, no time to actually just get a drink of water, much less lunch or anything else. And so over time, I've kind of figured out to structure it to more kind of mid-afternoon, or sorry, late morning, mid-afternoon. And that's when we can do a lot of the client meetings and then, you know, really focus my mornings, afternoons, nights in terms of handling a lot of the admin and work that I need to take care of. Yeah. So and we're going to definitely talk about that topic.

33:11So you have a sort of criteria that you're using based on like the opportunity, where it's at and gone, where I can add support. I'm sure deal size is probably a thing that you're considering. Deal size is definitely. We've talked about the prep. is there anything that you do before that first call when you're hopping on with the exec like for example send them an introductory email or anything like that is there anything you do before and then how do you think about the actual meeting itself and like how you show up i actually try to connect with them on gong and just like send them a note hey we're looking forward to connecting with you i think yeah everybody's on linkedin so i feel like that you know emails get looked over but so many people are on linkedin try to connect them with them that way um and then as i'm getting ready i'm just like playing back the notes that i had like what am i going to say like making sure that that i'm prepared if there's any last minute adjustments that i thought about just reaching out to to the team and and seeing hey what do you think about this yeah so and how coordinated is that first call that you're on in terms of like is the rep team you up for certain stuff or do you just know kind of when to step in like how do you because i think you can overdo it obviously where you come in and like run the call and you basically ruin the power dynamic between the rep and the customer where it's like they only want to work with now with you you know and then there's also just like they're the reps development but on the other side of that it's like you're on the call right like you want to add value like while you're on the call how do you think about like the execution on the call yeah i haven't seen the instance where they where like the exec will just kind of bypass like their champion and just try to go directly to me to work on it maybe they a problem but I haven't naturally seen that occur I think the bigger aspect of it was like just getting people to do the call prep because like in you know just seeing it's it's natural instinct like again for me to think that everybody does those call perhaps but they don't and so you have to like ask them like where I don't see the block on my calendar for the call prep we need to get this set up and just reinforcing that with your leaders as well making sure that that's got that step doesn't get there sorry that step does not get skipped because a lot of times I think you know especially I see it more now than I did in the past it's like a lot of reps will skip that I'm like it's important I mean your internal team needs to understand like it's like a play what's your role in that play and so everybody has to to do that dance to make sure that that meeting it's executed really really well yeah love it one last thing that I want to ask you is cross department collaboration mm-hmm So one of the things you said when we were prepping for this, you said if you want to evolve your career, you have to get involved in other projects.

35:54Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that and then also how you think about balancing that? Because you could overextend yourself, I would imagine, as well, where your calendar, like to your point earlier, is filled with all of these internal meetings and you're not doing the thing that you really need to be doing, like participating in deals and helping win deals and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So what's your advice and approach here? I got great advice when I was at Smartsheet. So we talked a little bit about this. It was one of my colleagues and then became a boss, Jeff DeReuter. And so he had talked to me just through, I think, some advice that he got when he was at SAP.

36:29In order to really grow your career, you have to start to make a name for yourself across different departments. And so you have to start raising your hands for different things. Maybe it's getting involved with your ABM project, with your marketing team. yeah maybe it's sitting down with your product or product marketing team to go through some new releases and give feedback there's a number of different ways to do it you have to be careful though because like like you were saying if you raise your hand too much then you will skip the the day-to-day deals of day-to-day deal management of your team and so like again hitting your target is the number one thing that you you need to focus on but if you are going to progress your career, you have to start to get visibility within other teams and help to provide inputs.

37:14And it takes raising your hand. Like don't assume that somebody is going to just come find you and say, Hey, can you come get involved with this project? Really reach out and ask them like, what can I do to help? What advice would you give a first time sales exec on building relationships like cross department in terms of proactive things that they could and should be doing? I mean, step one is just like hit somebody up on Slack or call them or, you know, it's like a lot of a lot of times they're just there's like a fear of not doing that. Yeah. You know, and a lot of times the person in the product team or the marketing team wants that feedback, especially from from the field, like they're seeing what's going on directly.

37:59And so, um, and then you, you might get told no, like we're, we're good, but just be persistent. And, um, there's also like when you're at events or conferences or internal meetings, you make it a point to go around and introduce yourself to different executives. And, um, again, put yourself out there and say, I'd really like to help with some of these projects that they come up. So yeah, just don't get caught too much into it because again, you're like, you'll, you'll get into that time suck. And then that's going to take away from selling time. well then there's the sort of balance to strike there around because the opposite of that is also kind of bad where you're just you know the person that's only looking out for their department and you know kind of hard to work with yeah um let's shift gears a bit and talk about outbound pipe gen so what was really cool to see is like one of the really big conversations that we have with you guys when we started working together was just all the metrics and like it was really great to see you and some of the other leaders really lean in around like activity and just all of that other kind of stuff and um I would love for you to just talk about outbound pipe gen and how you think about managing to it and then we also talked about some of the other plays outside of cold outbound yeah you guys are doing that's really working uh pretty well but you're very metrics driven which I love when it comes to this.

39:21So how do you kind of think about PipeGen and managing it? I mean, we all have a quota, right? And so there's a certain amount of pipeline that you have to have. A lot of times 3x is what gets thrown around. It's, you know, really the win ratio that you have within the company kind of defines like how much pipeline that you need to have. And 3x would assume a 33 % win rate, which I think is pretty... That's pretty... it can be high. I mean, we're not there. Like we've made leaps and bounds. But it's really high. But like you've got to kind of find that North Star metric in terms of like this is how much pipeline I have to have that, which means I have to have so many new business meetings, not just meetings, new business meetings within a given week, which means I have to generate this much activity in order to create those new business meetings.

40:08And so there's actually a lot of different calculators and things like that that are online that can help reps or even AI can help them kind of break that down really, really easily. And so if you just manage that from week to week, that helps you hold yourself accountable in terms of what you need to do in your own activity to create your own pipeline. And it also tells you, like, are you ahead or are you behind? And those are the conversations my leaders have with the reps. Yeah. So. So how do you create buy in around the metric and where and the reason I ask that question is. You know, a lot of times it's an arbitrary activity target that is assigned in account executives hate this right where it's like, hey, you need to make 25 cold calls a day.

40:59This is mandated across the org, send 15 personalized emails, et cetera. how do you create buy-in around that number and it sounds like with the sales math this is a number that each rep calculates for themselves because their metrics could be different yeah but how do you create buy-in in the first place around this and i know that when we started working together outbound was like a really big push um at that time too but how did you think about just the buy-in around like we need to do this we need to be metrics driven like we need to be thinking about the numbers how did you think about the buy-in and like kind of the narrative i mean to get the org luckily we had some of the that data that was available that we could actually show the reps like these are certain conversion statistics that we had on emails that are out there um there wasn't a calling being done so like that was pretty easy to showcase like we're really converting anything there and so and similarly with linkedin so like if you show them some of the data here like as well as like help them understand that all of this is just science Like, yeah, a lot of them just naturally bought in to to that.

42:02And so it also like we set that as like our performance management framework as well. So we talked about the accountability aspect of things like it's very, very important that soup to nuts. You have that in place from an from accountability standpoint so that every single seller on the team knows exactly what they need to do week in, week out in order to achieve success. And so luckily today there's so much more information on LinkedIn and different areas just about this topic as opposed to like when I started my career. But yeah, it's still hard. I think reps naturally would rather just work an inbound deal, work something that comes to them.

42:43But as I told them, like, you know, you're running a business. Think of it as your franchise. You are the CEO of your franchise and that is your territory. Yes. And so you have to rely on yourself. You can't rely on somebody else to come in here and help you. So 100 % of your work is going to be your number. And then think of marketing leads is gravy on top of that. So if you have that mindset, that really helps them. Yeah. Because we've trained about 250 sales teams in the last six years, and it's around 10 ,000, a little over 10 ,000 reps. We have some very specific archetypes that we've identified.

43:21And the archetype, the owner archetype is what we call it. The rep that really owns their pipeline as if it's their business. Exactly like you said. I'm running a franchise. Those are the reps that find a way to get it done. It's not, in my experience, the reps that are super savvy with AI all the time. And it's also not the, we call it the grinder. It's not the person that hits their activity target all the time either. It's just, it's the person that really takes ownership and is really picky also about where they spend their time. So we have the activity target and we've created ownership around it.

43:55What are some of the things, like you mentioned you guys do PG Tuesdays. There's one going on right now. Love it. So how do you guys facilitate this in a way that's productive for the org? Because most of what I see, as you could imagine, is people do a PG Tuesday or Monday. It's four hours. It's a complete waste of time. There's hardly anything accomplished during that. Reps hate it. How do you make this productive? We have a Slack channel for our new business team. And part of what I've asked them to put in there is, what are your account targets as you're going after? I think what are the channels that you're going to try to achieve and then what did you achieve and then what did you learn?

44:36I think it's that last part because you think across the entire team, everybody's got some sort of new learning that's in there. And, you know, people are reading those updates or seeing different things coming to bear and learning different things that are out there. And so they're picking up different tidbits from that. And we even got the, you know, the SDRs get involved. Obviously, every single day they're doing calls and channels, but they're also providing some inputs within there as well. And so everybody can learn from everybody in that type of forum. Then you also have to remember, it's unfortunate, but I think sometimes as a seller, they will bypass their PG efforts to work deals.

45:17And it's like the most important thing you can do is have pipeline. If you have a lot of pipeline, then that can help drive success. And so, like, this enforces, like, dedicated time so that if something did come up, like, you know, they had a family emergency or something like that that took them away from it later in the week, they at least put in a lot of work and a lot of effort to kind of drive that pipeline as opposed to just going throughout the entire week and skipping it. Because what's going to happen? You're not going to get your new business meetings. You're not going to create your opportunities.

45:49And therefore, you're going to put yourself at risk. so a big part of this it sounds like is you're facilitating learning and sharing everything is about learning and sharing right i mean all of these like even when we do different channels i want people to talk about like where they had success what like what isn't going right because you talk about the the person that does the most activity is not the necessarily the person that's going to drive the most success that's because they're probably not personalizing stuff they're just putting out yeah you know canned garbage yeah and so that that personalization is really helpful thankful thank God he has actually helped us you know and you can do a lot more of that but like I want the sellers to share where they're having successes what what kind of you know kind of message like really hits what kind of warm call or cold call really hit so somebody else can learn that goes back to my days at tableaus and I see like we were used to there was a group of us at reps like when we struggled we just get together in a meeting or call the individual, Hey, what's working right now?

46:48Like, what are you doing? And I think that's another important element to like call your peers and get in, get in a room with your peers. Don't make it a bitch session. Like get in the room and like really ask each other, like, where are you finding success? Yeah. I love that. So with the PG Tuesday to get tactical here, what are the requirements around this? Is that a certain number of hours that day? Our reps not allowed to schedule meetings over it? Like how, how, how do you have it set up? Yeah. So I asked that we don't schedule any internal meetings that you schedule all of your client meetings any other day, but that day.

47:20Oh, so the entire day is dedicated. The entire day is dedicated to PG Tuesday. So it's just really about driving as much personalized activity in that day, not just activity. Yeah. And it's across different channels, right? I want to make sure that people understand, like, it can't just be gong engaged and like, you know, doing emails. There's got to be some LinkedIn. in there's got to be some some calls and i try to tell the team i'm like if you've already reached out to them a few times it's not a cold call it's a warm call you're just you're facilitating another channel to follow up um i have some sellers that uh like when they're in cities one of the channels will do stop by and bring uh bagels or something you know you just got to do different things to try to cut through i talked about that in another podcast is like uh the worst thing you can do I bring up the where's Waldo analogy the worst thing you do is just you know when you're reaching out to somebody be like this giant crowd of people and you're not standing out so you got to think to yourself what can I do to stand out and get that message across so I can book that meeting yeah and that that creates a little bit of self-reflection also the managers working with them like if they're not getting those new business meetings right really digging into you know what's your email look like what What does your in-mail look like?

48:40How are you approaching this call? That's the coaching element that's really there to try to help the team. Got it. So we have these PG Tuesdays. We have this Slack channel that's being shared with best practices. Reps are not allowed to schedule meetings over it. Is there like a scoreboard or something during that day where someone is posting out the results so far from the day or anything like that? We haven't put that out there. That's actually a great idea to be able to do that. I haven't done like a true like oh here's who won the most like I've done that before on like we had a spiff like so where we would ran it and previous company where I had like a PG Tuesday and we would have it like a spiff for the most yeah sometimes I can gain that type of thing yeah I'm so you have to be very specific but in terms of what we're doing here now it's like right now we're just like trying to make it about the learnings and the accountability so one last question related to this in your org what's what percentage of pipeline is a self or is an account executive expected to self source you said a hundred percent but like what's kind of the revenue model set up for just out of curiosity um it's it's 65 35 today so 65 self no no no 35 self 65 we are a marketing lead gen company yeah so um but i mean you're gonna have ebbs and flows there And so I don't want them thinking that that's going to be what marketing is always going to drive for them because marketing has dry spells, too.

50:08Like buyers are always trying to hide. They don't want to, you know, we sell advertising. And so they don't always want to do the clicks, do the form fills, do the like. Yeah, they want to use I.I. and they want to hide behind a lot of things. And so that just gets back to reps really need to take accountability and really own their own path. Yeah. So that 65 is SDR included in that also? Yeah. Okay. So yeah, that's pretty standard. So a third of pipeline self-source, it's a good kind of sweet spot there for sure. Plays outside of cold outbound. So you've talked about in-person. Let's talk about that real quick.

50:49What is the culture in your org around meeting in-person with clients? is it encouraged do reps have a you know can they put stuff on the company card for things like how like how do you how do you think about in person and what's what's a part of the culture and what's encouraged it's encouraged um when i first got there it naturally wasn't happening yeah like uh you know especially on like even the post sale side and so like that was one of the first things we put in place to go see your customer go sit down with them go do in-person qbrs um really get to know them like we started to see a massive increase in ndr and just like building those relationships from being able to go do that same thing on the new business side i mean yeah people are now to stay where they want to get back in front of you know they want to do business i feel like people are hungry for it right now dude especially like in europe so i have a team in london and so uk is very much like let's get in person relationships let's let's talk about this So, yeah, I'm always encouraging the team get get out of your we work, get out of the apartment, get out and, you know, get face to face with clients and sit down.

51:58I think that's how you build champions, too. Like it's this like we're having a conversation with them. I'm understanding, like, you know, what's going on in your life? How is this going to help your your career? Like, yeah, we talked about your kids before this. We talked about exercise. We talked about stuff. I'm dealing with my apartment building right now. You know, I mean, people buy from people. Yeah. A lot of these platforms always use the statistic out there. It's like everything can do 80 % of what everything else can do. And so people are going to buy from people. They're going to renew because they trust you.

52:31They feel like they got your back. And so if you're not doing that element, if you're stuck in your apartment or you're just stuck in the office, you're not seeing somebody else, you're putting your deals at risk. because there's somebody on the other side that's probably doing that, that's winning over your champion or a different champion. Yeah. And you're probably going to lose that deal or you're going to lose that client. Yes, because as much as we maybe don't like to admit it, the moat is disappearing very quickly with software. It's almost not a moat anymore. So those relationships are really key.

53:05The relationships, building it in person. You talked about customer dinners. this is something I'm really curious about, like how you guys think of customer dinners. I think oftentimes the challenge is how do we get the right people at a dinner? How do we avoid doing the pitch fest, you know, type of dinners and keep it sort of organic and you know, that sort of thing. But how do you guys think about dinners and where does that kind of fit in stuff where it's, Hey, maybe I'm not going to someone's office necessarily, but I'm getting, you know, a couple of clients together and a couple of prospects, maybe that I'm working deals with?

53:43How do you guys think about the dinners and things like that? Yeah, I encourage my team when they're out visiting clients. We talked about Denver. For us, we got quite a groundswell of different clients in the Denver area. So do a champion's dinner. Get your different champions from the different customers there together. Sit down and invite some prospects. We really tested this model out. One of my reps, Chris Lee, when I was at Tableau, we did in Austin and invited a bunch of different champions together and some prospects. And you don't have to sell. The champions, if they love you, they'll sell for you.

54:22They'll sell for you. And that's exactly what happens. They just sit at the table and you go around the room. Hey, talk about what you're doing. Talk about how you're using the software. They literally will launch into just a pitch about what they're doing. I love it. You don't have to say a word. They start asking questions. It's a very valuable thing, especially if you are in a city where you've got a bunch of different customers, you have prospects. It's really important to get eight, 12 people together. It pays off. Yeah, and you're the person as a rep that is facilitating that connection.

54:54It's such a big offer of value to the buyer. What about events and customer conferences? Do you have any outside of, hey, you should go to them and do the whole thing? Are there any other kind of best practices or tips that you've found to work really well? Yes. Across the org with this stuff. Events are critical, at least like what we're seeing in terms of converting. So when you have an event, don't just sit in your booth. And so I got a couple of sellers in Sydney that are fantastic at this. Like, they'll come, they're well-dressed, and then they just go to all the different booths. They're literally going and knocking on every single booth, trying to meet with, we sell to marketers.

55:38So they're trying to meet with every single marketer at every single one of those booths. So we have a support staff at our booth. It's usually somebody on the marketing team and an SDR, like they can answer questions. But the sellers are out networking. They're out going and trying to have conversations and, you know, scan those badges, get those meetings set up. And like, yeah, that's how you maximize those events is just getting people out and, you know, making the relationships. Will you guys do any other kind of stuff proactively around the event, like hosting a VIP dinner or it sounds like you sponsor the event as well?

56:14Yeah. Are there any other kind of stuff like that? Well, we might we might even go into the event. We might sponsor event. We might sponsor like an event, a dinner or something outside of that. we may just send like two reps and not have a booth and just go to the event and like go network go talk to all these folks again because we're selling to marketing teams so our buyers are right there so you know and again with with advertising one things we do and one thing we've kind of been talking to a lot of our clients about too is uh using digital out of home like a lot of the digital billboards there to surround the conference itself put your brand message that it's out there like we do some of that as well so there's different things you can do at events but But again, you're just trying to get there so that you can have those conversations with people.

56:59And it's important. We try to make sure that we send the sellers that feel naturally comfortable in doing that. Because they're the ones that also drive the most follow-up meetings. That's not me. That's a wrap. For me, we have the dinner and stuff tonight. That's more of my style. It's getting a small dinner and stuff together. Going to a conference. If I'm not speaking at it, it's a freaking nightmare for me, dude. It's not easy. It's like you can recognize the phone. I mean, just there's, there's some folks that are just, just naturally like they just, they're people, people, people pleasers.

57:29They want to get out and talk to everybody. It's like, yeah, send those folks out there because they will crush it at these events. Yep. Last but not least, I think there was a couple of other ones. How do you think about in scale, like just intros and referrals within the org or like board intros and like, how do you guys think about the, the warmer stuff and getting more of like the referrals and things? Well, when you have the account lists, like one of the first things a rep should make sure that they're doing is like who within your company has connections. You'll be able to see that you're using team link or something on sales.

58:02Yeah. And like if your execs have connections to other execs, like reach out to your exec. Like, how do you know this person? Would you mind like sending, you know, ghost ride an email for him? Would you mind sending this across? And yeah, that's every executive in the company should be willing to do that. like every executive's there to help sell the product and so like use that as much as you can to to reach out and then from the board perspective yeah reach out to your board like they have other companies that they actually support and so like even if it's not something in their portfolio you know not my one of my past companies had relationships with like large cpg customers large enterprise customers and so they had no problem setting up meetings for us and like gave us at bats you just have to ask the question like hey can are you willing to help us some some of the investors have like in the bay area might have a cmo or cro type of forum can i help sponsor this can i can i get involved like they're invested in you they have invested interest in your success yeah so and it can be an intro that you get directly to a cmo versus having to do the whole...

59:14They have high level... Yeah, they have very high level contacts. Yeah. Oh, it's something, a play that we've started running. It just takes such a long time to build these relationships is through PE firms. We finally got a good PE firm on board. And it was like, after I met their go-to-market team, it was like five introductions to CROs right after that. Yeah. So definitely. I want to talk to you about one more topic before we take off. your sort of like weekly rhythm and how you think about productivity. And I want to ask you first how you leverage AI, because I know AI is a part of that. Yes.

59:48And I'm curious, just you as a programmer, you know, kind of how you think about it, but how are you leveraging AI in your day to day right now? A lot of different ways. So, you know, it's helping with me with emails, helping me with internal uh documents like creating narratives around the forecast it's helping me with presentations so you guys have claude hooked up we have claude and we have gemini hooked up and so um i'm actually in the process of finishing the integration with gong i created a chief of staff uh agent to to really help me just you know hey like here's the things that i'm focused on for the week what do you think like where are the areas where are the gaps like what are you seeing what's your thought process on the deals?

1:00:33I'm hearing this. It's really there to kind of help be that extra voice that helps me scale. But I don't think there's an element that I don't use AI for just to help me scale quite a bit. So you're using it to find a lot of gaps in email communication calendar, et cetera, like these natural touch points that you might not be thinking of. And it sounds like you're also using it or about to use it with Gong to surface maybe stuff that's not so obvious in the dashboards that you have set up and yeah I like to triangulate right everything is like what are my leaders saying what's a rep saying um what can I ascertain through you know I still go through gong calls I you know what what am I seeing there and then like yeah yeah what are you what are you seeing like every everybody has like a different voice to help you kind of triangulate yeah where things are um you know and there's also things will happen there's always fires that that occur and that can naturally distract you and so I think having some sort of chief of staff or something like that that's there like that helps reset you helps get you back on the path so that you don't get too deviated away from the day to day yeah from a time management standpoint and just kind of like your your calendar how do you like to run your run your week when you like to do meetings versus other stuff and like what does a typical week look like well as I told you I sucked at it when I started yeah you You know, I was stacking up.

1:01:56I usually would do a lot of my one-on-ones with my leaders on Monday. Yeah. Thursday's our forecast call. Then we have, throughout the week, different touch points with different teams. I'm just stacking meeting on top of meeting on top of meeting. And so I know that my boss, she got me an executive assistant. Yeah. Because she could see that too. Yeah. And so the first thing, and the executive assistant came in and looked at it and said, you're terrible at this. Let me come and help you. And, you know, I was resistant. Like I've, I've always just owned my calendar and everything like that. I'm like, I got it.

1:02:29Don't worry about it. I'm fine. She's like, just let me, let me break this up. I'll show you what this looks like. And then I looked at her and it's like, ah, damn. Like, yeah, you're right. I'm not good. So she's, she's really been able to help me in terms of like, you've got to have time in between to, to reset, to grab some water, grab some lunch, uh, do some, you know, do some tasks that you're being asked to do. Like you can get really sucked in. And if you're just use your brain, like outside of a meeting and be strategic, right? Like that's the job of a VP as an executive, right? Is to be strategic.

1:03:00And it's like, you know, you're obviously a very smart guy, well accomplished, have all the experience. But if you're just in meetings all day, you don't really get to, as a business owner, we say working on the business versus in the business. Like you've got to be able to work on the org versus in the org all the time. A hundred percent. And so that, that was really important. She, she helped me quite a bit. And like, I would say like, if, if somebody has that opportunity to be able to, you know, leverage it, they know what they're talking about. Love that. Um, I got two rapid fire questions for you before we take off.

1:03:30Um, how do you like to decompress after a long day or week? Um, I love to cook. Okay. I absolutely love to cook. And so, um, that kind of helps me. It's just the kind of satisfaction of creating something as long as I create good. Yeah. Um, you know, being able to do that. We should have had the dinner at your house tonight. It's kind of a mess right now. What do you like to cook, though? Oh, gosh. I love Thai food. Okay. You know, my favorite thing is my sous vide, so I can do a lot of different steaks and meats that way. So you do, like, the reverse sear on the steak, like the sous vide, and then, yeah.

1:04:05Yeah, but I also have a wok, and that's a lot of fun because you can put a lot of ingredients together. Okay. I love that. But, you know, the other thing is my kids are in sports. I just love to be when I get the time to be able to do it, be an active dad, be able to go, you know, watch them do their thing. And so that that helps me as well, just to kind of get away from work, really focus on them and see what's going on. Love to bike ride, love to work out. You know, staying healthy is very important, especially as you get into being an executive. Yeah. Like it's stressful. And so you got to make sure that you're, you're balancing, um, you're working out, eating healthy, doing things like that.

1:04:43Love that. Um, if you were a first time VP of sales or VP of revenue all over again, what advice would you give yourself knowing what you know today? Reach out to people that you know that, that are doing this today. Establish your, your, you know, have your network and ask them how, how are they structuring the week? How are, what are the things that they're thinking about? How are they approaching, um, certain things that you're being asked to do? um you know they they've been through the fire and it's you know we all learn from each other so just you know make sure that you're constantly reaching out and you know everybody they're going to ask you the same thing what are you saying so yep yeah love that uh before you go where can people go to connect with you um are you guys hiring right now if so where can people go to learn about that all that kind of good stuff we're not hiring right now um you know it has ebbs and flows, but not at the moment, but you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

1:05:38Yeah. Just shoot me a DM and always happy to connect and lend advice and help coach when I can coach. And that's Mark Haas. Yes. Mark Haas. Like Sass, but with H. Yes. Thank you. Cool. Good having you, man. You too. Thanks.

1:06:03Thank you.