In short
The episode is a political-media roundup. It starts with a UK local politics story: Mothin Ali, co-deputy leader of the Green Party and a Leeds councillor, received a special responsibility allowance (~£5,800) despite allegedly having no council “special responsibility.” The Greens later formalised roles (including group spokesman and youth-violence initiatives) after questions, prompting infighting, a council review, and a wider transparency/accountability debate. It also covers US politics: Georgia senator John Ossoff’s comments about Donald Trump “sleeping through meetings,” golfing, and “travel with Natalie” Harp (Trump’s “human printer”/special assistant who prints memes). The White House responded with unusually aggressive insults, while the episode links Harp’s controversial backstory to earlier reporting. Finally, it discusses the BBC charter renewal: budget cuts, falling licence-fee payers, and proposals to make iPlayer/BBC content more YouTube-like, risking dilution of BBC standards.
Guests
none; it’s hosted by Andrew Hunter-Murray, Helen Lewis, Sabah Salman, and Adam McQueen.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to the Green Party Story
0:46 to 1:10
Discussion of Mothin Ali and his relevance to local politics.
“My name is Andrew Hunter-Murray and I'm here in the iStudio with Helen Lewis, Sabah Salman and Adam McQueen.”
Councillor Allowance Controversy
1:10 to 2:29
Explaining the controversy over Mothin Ali's councillor allowance.
“But for starters, can you just tell us about Mr Ali and how he's ended up in the pages of Private Eye this fortnight?”
Green Party's Reaction and Justification
2:29 to 4:24
How the Greens are responding to the backlash regarding Mothin Ali.
“What happened was there seemed to be some sort of secret discussions within the Green Group in Leeds that perhaps the national leadership, the money he got for that role wasn't enough.”
Broader Implications for the Green Party
4:24 to 7:20
Discussing the implications of the controversy for the Green Party's image.
“and that the spokesperson role qualifies.”
Mothin Ali's Community Work
7:20 to 9:06
Highlighting Mothin Ali's community initiatives and their significance.
“in a party that is very big on LGBT rights, very big on social liberalism.”
Principles of Public Funding
9:06 to 10:39
Exploring the principles surrounding public funding and allowances for councillors.
“There is a really important principle and it's one that everyone can agree on in principle, but it's quite hard in the practice of it, which is that politicians have two roles, don't they?”
Comparative Political Scandals
10:39 to 12:32
Drawing parallels between Mothin Ali's situation and other political scandals.
“Whether or not you take it is up to you.”
Upcoming Party Conferences
12:32 to 14:01
Discussion about the upcoming party conference season and its implications.
“But I think that's shaping up to be a very interesting contest.”
London Mayoral Elections: A Five-Way Contest?
14:01 to 14:40
Discussing the implications of the recent London elections, including a potential five-way mayoral race.
“It's a really interesting one, though, isn't it?”
Party Conference Season Insights
14:41 to 16:56
Exploring the upcoming party conference season and which conferences the hosts are most interested in attending.
“The day after this podcast goes out is going to be the start of party conference season.”
Show all 19 chapters
American Politics Update: John Ossoff
18:04 to 19:19
A discussion on John Ossoff, his political career, and his upcoming election challenges.
“Another quiet fortnight in America, I imagine.”
Natalie Harp: Trump's Human Printer
19:20 to 21:52
Examining the role of Natalie Harp as close aide to Trump and the nature of their relationship.
“Both those came in in January 2021 and gave the Democrats control of the Senate.”
White House Response to Ossoff's Comments
21:53 to 23:26
Analyzing the White House's over-the-top response to Ossoff's comments about Natalie Harp.
“But the thing that's very interesting about that is, so obviously the crowd sort of hissed about this.”
The Power Dynamics of Trump's Inner Circle
23:27 to 28:00
Discussing the implications of the personal relationships within Trump's administration and their impact on power.
“And instead there was just this whomp of anger about how very dare he say this.”
Political Landscape Ahead of 2028
28:00 to 30:28
Discussion on the evolving tactics and tone within the Democratic Party leading to the next election.
“and was kind of not in control at all of what was going on within his own government.”
Challenges Facing the BBC
31:18 to 36:55
An in-depth analysis of the BBC’s charter renewal, budget cuts, and evolving media landscape.
“Sounds like they're going to have to go on a joust, doesn't it?”
The Future of Media Personalities
36:55 to 42:00
Exploration of media figures' transitions to independent platforms and their implications.
“they have relocated some of the resources into kind of online local news.”
The Dynamics of Media Transition
42:00 to 45:40
Explore the complexities and unpredictability of transitioning between media formats and platforms.
“It used to be funded by the Foreign Office.”
The BBC's Strategic Cuts
45:40 to 46:34
Discuss the BBC's recent high-profile programming cuts and their implications for the audience and funding.
“I mean, The World Tonight was produced out of a joint newsroom with various other Radio 4 programmes.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Saba Salman:Andy and Anna here from your new favourite podcast, No Such Thing as a Fish.
0:06Adam Macqueen:Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy?
0:18Saba Salman:Yes, how about this one? Anteaters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. Mysterious, wonderful.
0:25Adam Macqueen:The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels, warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs.
0:37Saba Salman:So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish.
0:42Adam Macqueen:Page 94, the Private Eye podcast.
0:45Saba Salman:Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94. My name is Andrew Hunter-Murray and I'm here in the iStudio with Helen Lewis, Sabah Salman and Adam McQueen. We're here to talk about all the hottest matters that have occurred since the weather got a bit cooler. Nice little weather joke for you there. So, Sabi, your story this week is about a Green Party politician called Mothin Ali, and it says something very interesting about not only local politics, but also where the Greens are nationally, which we'll get into in a bit. But for starters, can you just tell us about Mr Ali and how he's ended up in the pages of Private Eye this fortnight?
1:15Adam Macqueen:So, Mothin Ali is the co-deput leader of the Green Party nationally, and he is also a local councillor in Leeds. What happened was that Mothin Ali was given a councillor allowance, a special responsibility allowance of about£6 ,000. It emerged that he had no special responsibility, but it seemed that he was given this, as we reported, for his national role. As an opposition party, you are entitled to not only your basic allowance, so in Leeds, all councillors get about£18 ,000. And over and above that, if you have what's known as a special responsibility, you get an extra bit of cash. And in Leeds, for that particular group, it's about£5 ,800.
2:03Saba Salman:And would those be sort of like chairing committees? Yes. Yeah.
2:06Adam Macqueen:So it absolutely has to be an additional kind of extra responsibility on top of what you do normally, which is, you know, meet your ward constituents, speak at the council. The fact is that Mothin Ali had no such special responsibility within the framework of not only Leeds Council's sort of rules, but more widely the government's sort of regulations.
2:28Saba Salman:So has this decision been made because he's the, as you said, co-deputy leader or the deputy co-leader?
2:35Adam Macqueen:Yeah, so...
2:36Saba Salman:Or the leader deputy co. Works either way. He's a regional manager. A lot of many jobs.
2:40Adam Macqueen:What happened was there seemed to be some sort of secret discussions within the Green Group in Leeds that perhaps the national leadership, the money he got for that role wasn't enough. And so in recognition of his national role, he should get an extra bit of cash. Now, the problem with that is that councillor allowances are funded by local taxpayers. So if I'm a local taxpayer in Leeds, I want my money to be... I may not want my money going to the council at all, But, you know, if I'm remunerating councillors, it should be for the work they do within the council, within the city. So effectively what you have is an extra bit of cash going to a local councillor for a national political role.
3:26Saba Salman:How do the Greens react when you ask them about this?
3:28Adam Macqueen:Well, the timeline here is interesting, Andy, because they seem to have retrofitted Councillor Mothinalli with a special role, which is group spokesman, which was not on the website. And indeed, last time I checked this morning, he's still not on the website to justify this. And also spokesman for youth violence initiatives, which he's done some good work on and mentoring other councillors, which, again, I'm told that he's, you know, that is what he does, which is great. but it doesn't A. justify the extra money and neither is it right that it's retrospectively added on to justify this extra bit of money.
4:07Saba Salman:But we understand that the Greens are denying that this spokesperson role was retrofitted. They say it's a role Councillor Ali has always undertaken and that they just took steps to formalise it after the I asked questions. They also say there are no specific rules about which roles can receive an SRA and that the spokesperson role qualifies. sometimes when we record these i look forward as in i anticipate the comment section i mean any american viewers or listeners to this will be laughing at the 5 800 pounds what is this you know so i suppose i'm interested in why we're covering this and and what what makes it a significant story in the context of the green party and why are you having a go at the greens when there are you know they're not even in government yeah take the last point we have a
4:51Adam Macqueen:go at everybody so you know it's not just the greens but yes so it is a relatively small amount And absolutely£5 ,800 is, you know, nothing in the great scheme of things. You know, council controls some sort of£140 billion worth of services. So it's a tiny amount. It's the principle of it. So government guidance and, you know, legislation on this means that the special responsibility allowances, SRAs, are meant to be for additional work aligned to the council. So something you do within the council role. The fact that you retrospectively fit it is iffy. beyond that you know this is not just a local story in terms of the local green group it is that because it's led to a bit of infighting because some of the greens believe this you know possibly wasn't quite right the procedure was wrong and and what's going on here and we need it documented we need it properly uh you know to be transparent so that's the local green group for the council it's an issue because the council is not a political entity but obviously that is the council constitution within which these allowances are handed out.
5:56Adam Macqueen:So what's happened there? So that's the second point is the council is now reviewing this decision, you know, which is quite unusual. So effectively, how this has happened, why it happened, when it happened, who made the decision and how much money has already exchanged hands, should it be repaid? So that review is ongoing. And then the third thing is what it means nationally, because obviously councillorally is co-deputy leader of the Greens. And if you think that, you know, something we've talked about on the podcast before is Zach Polanski's political identity is very much to do with transparency, accountability, public institutions, working for the ordinary person.
6:35Adam Macqueen:This kind of flies in the face of that. Given that the Greens, you know, have had this surge in membership and way more councillors over the last two local elections, you know some 1500 councillors nationally now if you're having more people coming in like this and these are some of the things that are going on for councillors within local councils how are
6:57Helen Lewis:funds sort of being used is there an anti-mothin alley faction in the green party is this also representative of the fact there are some people who aren't because there's lots of discussion about the greens about the you know the difference between the the mangoes who are like i'm gonna get this terribly wrong and the water but you know the ones who are red on the inside ones who were most interested in maybe Gaza, ones who are most interested in anti-austerity, ones who are interested in the environment, I believe they exist as well. But, you know, he is a socially conservative Muslim in a party that is very big on LGBT rights, very big on social liberalism.
7:27Helen Lewis:That has always seemed to me to be a kind of really interesting, you know, how those two things sit in tension with each other. So do you think this is reflective of a wider, like, you know, are there people who are unhappy with his role in the Greens for whatever reason, that this scrutiny is reflective of that?
7:41Adam Macqueen:I think what I'm hearing with this particular story is genuinely the principle of how did this happen? And it is not, you know, we think he is dodgy per se. It's a personality thing. I mean, yes, within, you know, the Greens generally, and I think in this particular group, there is a new contingent that's come in. So there's about 11 councillors now. And, you know, it is a broad church in the general sense of the word. So what I would say is that the Mothin Ali has done some great community work. He's also been controversial. He sort of hit the headlines for making comments after the October 7th Hamas attack, for which he subsequently apologised.
8:30Adam Macqueen:So he did get in trouble for that. But he's also done some work, you know, environmentally. He's very pro-inclusive gardening. so sort of Tell me more about that I'm in He has a very well regarded locally project called Dig It Out you know make gardening and horticulture more inclusive get the racism out of horticulture
8:51Helen Lewis:There was a whole thing about whether or not you should name plants after people because a lot of them are named after quite terrible colonialists but it's not that right it's the idea of minorities not being To my knowledge
8:59Adam Macqueen:he's not you know renaming the English rose into some Mahatma Gandhi kind of thing
9:06Saba Salman:There is a really important principle and it's one that everyone can agree on in principle, but it's quite hard in the practice of it, which is that politicians have two roles, don't they? There's the role in their political party and their role as public servants, if you like. And there's always a sort of... What this reminded me of is, if you can cast your mind back to many, many Farage fallouts ago. Do you remember when Douglas Carswell was MP for Clacton? It was Clacton, yeah. Yeah, same constituency, but for UKIP, Nigel's old party at that point. and he came under a lot of pressure from UKIP management to accept all of the opposition money as the sole UKIP MP at that point.
9:44Saba Salman:The short money, it's called.
9:44Helen Lewis:In Westminster, right? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:47Saba Salman:Short money, which I think is named after... It's going to sound like a short. It's one of those weird ones like Belisha Beacons, isn't it? Leslie Hall Belisha. No one remembers him, but there you go. He was a transport minister who brought those in. But, yeah, short money, which is effectively a big allowance for opposition parties and as the sole UKIP MP, he was entitled on principle to claim all of that and was encouraged. It would have involved him taking on sort of 15 assistants or something who evidently were not going to be working for a single MP. No one has 15 assistants. It was effectively just to use that public money for party purposes, for UKIP purposes.
10:22Saba Salman:And he disagreed with that on principle and fell out horribly with Nigel Farrell. Yes, I know. It's extraordinary.
10:27Helen Lewis:A rare thing for me to say, good for Douglas Carlsper.
10:29Saba Salman:Yeah, unfortunately things have gone a bit awry since because he's moved to Southern America and got very, very race conscious, shall we say euphemistically.
10:37Adam Macqueen:You are entitled to this public money. Whether or not you take it is up to you. And there are examples, big up the councillors, who've said actually no.
10:45Saba Salman:What, these special responsibility allowances?
10:47Adam Macqueen:Sometimes special responsibility, sometimes basic allowance. But on the other hand, we've covered so many stories in Rottenboroughs of councillors who take the money and don't do a lot for it. You know, we recently reported in Lambeth, which is now under Green minority control, when the Greens were in opposition, they said, this is terrible. Labour's claiming all this money for council allowances. They must stop. Lo and behold, you know, fast forward a little bit. They're now in minority control and they are suggesting or they had suggested that actually let's have some more cash. And they were proposing taking more council allowances than the Labour.
11:26Adam Macqueen:And actually, that was sort of overruled, and it's back down to a more kind of manageable level. But there are examples.
11:31Saba Salman:It sounds like growing pains, whenever a party's growing, the sort of tensions become apparent between the different bits. It doesn't stay just on one thing. It doesn't stay just on environmentalism. Like how Greenpeace has always been, you know, half green and half peace. You know, those are the two different bits of it.
11:45Helen Lewis:The Greens have, I think, done a really good job so far of building out their infrastructure. Absolutely. I mean, they had a big surge, didn't they? 100 ,000 members. I mean, as covered in many podcasts past him, they had a bit of an issue with gatekeeping some of the councillor candidates, but they nonetheless got a lot of bums on seats before that May election, you know, very quickly tooled up. And that was a big expansion. Yes, absolutely. And a lot of ex-Labour councillors as well.
12:08Adam Macqueen:Again, we've covered it.
Read the full transcript
12:09Saba Salman:They are in a very unusual position, aren't they? Because they are now a political party with several MPs in Westminster, none of whom are the leader or deputy leader.
12:17Helen Lewis:No.
12:17Saba Salman:The leader himself hasn't... Has he ever stood for Parliament, Zakulanski? He certainly hasn't...
12:21Helen Lewis:He tried to, well, when he was a Lib Dem, he tried.
12:23Saba Salman:Oh, right, OK, for a different party. But he pointedly hasn't been a candidate in any of the compiled elections.
12:29Helen Lewis:Well, I wouldn't if he'd go for London Mayor, because he's a London Assembly member. But I think that's shaping up to be a very interesting contest. So James Cleverley is just a caveat, a very serious candidate from the Conservatives. So I personally quite like... I don't know if this is turning into Helen's right-wing politicians. I like how... But, yeah, so I think that would be an interesting test case for Zak Planski. I slightly think he'll bottle it. We've only had Cleverley and Leila Cunningham, haven't we? For reform. And I think Dawn Butler is very much angling from it from the Labour side.
12:56Helen Lewis:Although, Sadiq, I don't know if he... Has he even said, no, I don't want the glorious 19th term? I think everyone's assuming that he won't, you know, he will carry on.
13:04Adam Macqueen:Do you think Cleverley planned to do this
13:06Saba Salman:or do you think he found out he was on his way out from the front bench? Because there's been a reshuffle over the bank holiday, hasn't there? Just a bit. Poor old Mel Stride! Oh, I nearly texted you. Before anyone actually worked out who he was, he's no longer Shadow Chancellor, is he? And now it's someone called Andrew Griffiths. Another bald man of a certain age. I mean, maybe cleverly found out that accidentally he'd said something nice about net zero three years ago, and as a result was going to be cast into the outer darkness, you know.
13:30Helen Lewis:I think he's been planning it for quite a while, because he's from a sea in outer London, so I think, you know, that's sort of... Well, but, you know, it has been baffling to me that the Conservatives haven't, since Boris Johnson, put up better candidates. Like, there is a... you know, there are a lot of... But they should be fishing in a pool of lots of people who would have once been Tory voters 20 years ago.
13:50Saba Salman:Well, who do we have? We had Zach Goldsmith. Bring him back and we could have a Zach v Zach battle. That would be good, wouldn't it? Zach off. Or Susan Hall, I mean, for the gaiety of the nation.
14:01Adam Macqueen:It's a really interesting one, though, isn't it? Because given, you know, the last time I was talking to all of you about what's happened in London with the May elections, it's kind of up for grabs, isn't it? I mean, there's a reform coming that's come in within London. and you've got the Greens who've made great inroads and you've got the Green Mayor.
14:20Helen Lewis:So, yeah, kind of not... Oh, it could easily be like a sort of five-way, genuine five-way contest, that mayoral race. I'm kind of fascinated. And they've changed the voting system now, haven't they?
14:28Saba Salman:Because it's first past the post now, which it was always a secondary vote in London, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. I remember when I lived in London many, many years ago, great long lists of candidates. I'm furling your ballot paper. First choice, second choice. We've got to move on shortly, but I've got one last question for you all. The day after this podcast goes out is going to be the start of party conference season. I think Reform are kicking off first. You've each got the chance to be a fly on the wall at any one of the party conferences. Which one would you like to attend and why? I'm going to say Reform because apparently they have got,
15:00Adam Macqueen:and I know this because I got lost down the rabbit hole of the Reform website, they've got apparently a double-decker, bespoke, exclusive VIP box. Okay, that was some bathos there. That went down, didn't it?
15:18Saba Salman:That started well with the adjectives. It was deliberate. Now, can I just say, no, it's glass.
15:24Adam Macqueen:It's transparent. Oh, it's tea, tea, tea, tea, tea. Glass box. And if you remember the, slightly off-key, Severance, the TV show, they did a PR stunt in the middle of, was it Grand Central Station? Yeah, I think it was one of the New York stations. Okay, they were all in a transparent box. So I saw that and thought, it is exactly like that. Or David Blaine. David Blaine, yeah, by Tower Bridge, yeah. It's a three grand ticket, VIP, platinum ticket. I'm in that box. I'm at the heart of the action. I'm having a special dinner. With Nigel Farage? I'm with Farage.
15:54Saba Salman:They're genuinely offering to lock someone in a box with Nigel Farage and they have to pay for it.
15:58Adam Macqueen:I'll do it. I'll do it for the eye.
16:00Saba Salman:OK, well, can either of you cap that? Right, so reformer off the table now.
16:04Helen Lewis:I think I am going to Conservative conference, which will be interesting because...
16:09Saba Salman:You would just want to be nice about more right-wing politicians, don't you? Do you know what?
16:12Helen Lewis:Sometimes I think I'm going to hit my quota for this week. Come on, Tom Tuganat. I'm sure there must be something I can say.
16:17Saba Salman:Tommy Tuggs, he got promoted.
16:18Helen Lewis:Yeah, I know.
16:19Saba Salman:Sorry, Tommy Tuggs goes national now. Oh, yeah.
16:22Helen Lewis:I think Labour will be interesting because I would like to see whether or not any first cracks are appearing in the kind of we're all so happy, it's amazing that Andy Burnham has come to save us all. Because the state of the Labour Party does not stay happy for long, I would say, in the course of 15 years covering them, I would say. But again, from your point of view, I think Greens would be a great one to go to because, again, it's a party that's in flux. It's trying to work out where it sits, like who it's the main challenger to, what it's prepared to tolerate within the tent, those conversations always end up spilling out in fringe meetings and pub conversations around it.
16:53Helen Lewis:So I think that will be, yeah, I think all of them will be interesting.
16:56Saba Salman:You've got to pick, I'm afraid.
16:57Helen Lewis:Okay, if I can only get a one, I'm going to stay with going to, I would go to the Greens.
17:01Saba Salman:Nice. Adam? I was going to go Lib Dem just for the karaoke night so I could cringe myself inside out.
17:06Helen Lewis:Glee club, you mean?
17:07Saba Salman:That's the one, yeah. No, I think I'd have to go for your party, wherever they're holding theirs, as we can imagine, is the shed on Jezza's allotment or something. It's all right, it won't be there.
17:22Saba Salman:Andy and Anna here from your new favourite podcast, No Such Thing As A Fish.
17:27Adam Macqueen:Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy?
17:38Saba Salman:Yes, how about this one? Anteaters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. Mysterious. Wonderful.
17:46Adam Macqueen:The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels, warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs.
17:57Saba Salman:So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish. Helen.
18:03Helen Lewis:Hello.
18:04Saba Salman:Another quiet fortnight in America, I imagine. How's that all going? The opening question about America. No, well, this is someone called John Ossoff, which is a name I cannot take seriously.
18:13Helen Lewis:Well, you and President Trump both. So President Trump has been workshopping some nicknames for him.
18:18Saba Salman:Really?
18:19Helen Lewis:Of course he has. He's currently settled on Oz Brackets Jerk Off, which I think...
18:24Saba Salman:The trouble is that they don't say Tossoff in America, do they? Well, that's probably how he's got away. Like Trump has got away, you know, everyone in Northern England, you know, the man is named Dr. Fart, but they're completely oblivious to this.
18:34Helen Lewis:He's also tried Pee Wee Herman, which is a reference, as a children's TV character. But he got that wrong, didn't he? He said Pinky Herman. Like Pinky and the Brain Herman. Pinky Herman.
18:44Saba Salman:Bang up to the minute reference there. Okay, who is John Ossoff?
18:46Helen Lewis:So John Ossoff is a senator from Georgia. He is too young, in my opinion. He's younger than me, which I think is my cut-off now. Probably actually might even... No, he's not younger than you. He's my age. Yeah.
18:56Saba Salman:You haven't reached the point where the Doctor Who star being younger than you. That's a really depressing moment.
19:01Helen Lewis:Anyway, so he...
19:02Saba Salman:We can't go into statins now. Come on. Who is John Ossoff?
19:06Helen Lewis:How can I get a compare of very vocals? That's my question. He is the senator for Georgia. He's facing re-election in the midterms, and it's going to be one of the tightest races. In 2020, it was... Him and the Republican both got under 50%. They had a runoff, as did the other Georgia seat. Both those came in in January 2021 and gave the Democrats control of the Senate. So this was one of the races that's been seen incredibly closely. The other reason it is, is because he is seen as a potential 2028 presidential candidate. so he is a young white guy in a state Georgia which is demographically very mixed has a very big black population as well so the feeling is if he can unite that kind of coalition if he can appeal to both white and black voters in a southern state that's something that's really kind of exciting because you might be able to put back together that kind of Barack Obama coalition that spreads across like a you know really good chunk of America so everybody's looking at him and he's got a really interesting media strategy which is that he doesn't do those kind of like quirky social media clips or like the great, you know, AOC talking to camera about her pizza or egg freezing, whatever.
20:09Helen Lewis:He does quite an old fashioned, actually, Obama style. He will go and do rallies and then they'll clip them up, put them out. And then, you know, he'll try and make the clips from rallies go viral. Anyway, he'd had a rally a couple of weeks ago in which he said, the president sleeps through his meetings. He golfs and trades stocks. See, he doesn't want to do the job. I think he gave it more charisma than this. I should clarify. He didn't just read it off. He wants to build his ballroom and travel with Natalie on their apparently defenceless flying palace gifted by the Emir of Qatar. Now, you're having a question, aren't you?
20:39Saba Salman:Yes, who is the Emir of Qatar these days?
20:41Helen Lewis:That's a great question. Who is Natalie? Well, the reason you can tell this was a great line is that the crowd went wild. The crowd erupted. They know exactly who Natalie is. Natalie is Natalie Harp, who is known as Donald Trump's human printer, which is not something I would personally put on business cards.
20:59Saba Salman:Which doesn't work.
21:01Helen Lewis:she requires a huge amount of information she's offline for some reason
21:06Saba Salman:I do like when we go into a bit of observational stuff I do like it look out Michael McIntyre why is she the human printer?
21:13Helen Lewis:so she carries around a portable printer so she can print off dank memes and things she's seen on the internet to show them to Donald Trump that's so relatable I'm loving my essential item
21:24Saba Salman:someone who just hands you flattering things but hands you them on paper as well I love that
21:29Helen Lewis:so she I mean, the closest thing in a way is that there's often been a role for presidents is like the body man, which is the person who kind of is like their personal age. She is kind of that role. Like she is the one who's always constantly with him.
21:40Saba Salman:Well, her actual title is special assistant and executive assistant, isn't it?
21:44Helen Lewis:Special executive assistant to the manager. Yes, there's a lot of people building up their parts in this.
21:49Saba Salman:Does she get a special responsibility allowance?
21:52Helen Lewis:I think she probably does. But the thing that's very interesting about that is, so obviously the crowd sort of hissed about this. So they know the rumours about her, which are exactly the rumours you'd expect if an eight-year-old man with multiple wives and mistresses spent a lot of time with an attractive 30-something blonde. However, the more interesting way to talk about their relationship is the fact that she is essentially like a sort of... more like a kind of care home assistant in a way, right? Which is that she's just kind of keeping... Like, she feeds him stuff. She's supposedly the one...
22:21Saba Salman:Food? Not that we know of food.
22:23Helen Lewis:But she's supposedly the one who gave him the picture of the Obamas as apes, which a meme that he later reposted on his Truth Social, she showed that to him. So she's kind of responsible for his information diet which on the basis of his information output is poor.
22:39Saba Salman:Junk in, junk out, yes.
22:40Helen Lewis:It's absolutely poor. The other thing that's really interesting about this is that the response from the White House was way over the top. Way over the top. Stephen Miller, if you remember, the one slightly sort of Nosferatu looking fella, he said that John Osso's comments are among the most vile things I've seen in American politics. I know, right? It's not been looking hard. Real give-your-head-a-wobble territory. The phrase...
23:03Saba Salman:Have you met your boss?
23:04Helen Lewis:Travel with Natalie is one of the worst things he's ever heard.
23:07Adam Macqueen:Yeah, I know, right? I mean, that's a euphemism now, isn't it?
23:09Helen Lewis:Well, it's a very Ugandan discussion, I have to say now. Stephen Chang, who has press secretary, called Ossoff John Jerkoff and the biggest cuck loser in politics. You know, surreal, like, Algonquin roundtable debating stuff here. White House spokesman referred to him as a cringeworthy feminine theatre kid and a lightweight loser. So there was this massive, immediate, like, they really, you know, any communications advisor would have said, let this one go, lads. And instead there was just this whomp of anger about how very dare he say this. At the same time, though, the other interesting thing is, she'd been on my radar from regime change, which we discussed on this podcast.
23:44Helen Lewis:Yeah. Which is the book about the White House by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman, the New York Times reporters, which had said that she, Natalie Harp, had got this job by sort of sending Trump these letters saying you're everything to me. She's got this slightly fishy story about how she had a cancer that was incurable or that they were going to give her palliative care and instead, thanks to Trump's amazing act that would let people try unapproved medicines, she got an experimental treatment. That story really does not wash up. But basically she turned up on stage next to Trump going, I'm only alive because of you, God Emperor.
24:17and Trump went, I like you, I want to spend more time with you,
24:22Helen Lewis:person who uncritically adores me. And he's been known to say things like, the rest of you will all go and work in the private sector, but Natalie will never leave me. And so there is, at the same time, there's this huge defence of her. There are people within that White House, like Susie Wiles, Trump's chief of staff, who are said to be a little bit, you know, sort of concerned about this slightly codependent bond that they have. And in the wake of that Ossoff report, someone actually leaked one of Natalie Harp's letters to Trump's. So the criticisms come back from the White House is it's all very sexist.
24:50Helen Lewis:You're having a go at a woman, you're diminishing her, you're calling her a Barbie. But she's not really helped herself by writing these letters that are...
24:55Saba Salman:And you're a bunch of ultra-feminine theatre kids and cuts.
24:59Helen Lewis:I'm still stuck on that insult. Feminine theatre kid. Feminine. Oh, but that's the same thing that they've been giving to James Tallarico in Texas, the Democratic syndicates. It's all basically like, you know, you're femme, you're gay, you're trans. It's all like you're not a real man.
25:12Saba Salman:It's so pathetically schoolyard, isn't it?
25:14Helen Lewis:It is, from a group of people who do not...
25:15Saba Salman:It was a schoolyard in the 1980s as well, isn't it?
25:18Adam Macqueen:Right, yeah. I also feel there's a lot going on in American politics that you write about that might be more worthy of their attention than trading.
25:24Helen Lewis:Well, they don't want to talk about the war because that's going badly. They don't want to talk about the economy because that's going badly. They don't want to talk about Trump and what he's doing because all he cares about is his ballroom. He's basically checked out and he's just, you know, renaming lakes.
25:34Saba Salman:Also, I'm sorry, these people are not the jocks. I mean, you look at Trump and Stephen Miller and you think, sorry, you're not the popular kids at school.
25:42Helen Lewis:Yeah, I know, I know. But I thought that you'd like this. In one of her letters to him, she wrote basically, I could not have parted with you to anyone less worthy.
25:51Saba Salman:Oh, is it a Jane Austen quote?
25:52Helen Lewis:Which is Pride and Prejudice, which is what Mr Bennett says when Lizzie Bennett goes and asks if she can marry Mr Darcy.
25:59Saba Salman:Who's Darcy in this?
26:01Helen Lewis:Donald Trump. Oh, I don't want to imagine him in a show. Coming out of the lake. Oh, we've all gone there.
26:06Adam Macqueen:Thank you for that. Really not. It's so unsavoury.
26:10Helen Lewis:There we go. She also wrote in a letter to him, I want things to always be right between us. I also know I've been distracted all week, forgetting to eat throughout the days, and even forgetting to sleep and only catching a couple of hours at a time. She also wrote, you are all that matters to me.
26:20Saba Salman:Oh, my God, it's getting about 50 shades of orange, isn't it? You know where I'm going to go with this, Tony? I'm going to go to my favourite place, my happy place. It's 1970s. Extremely reminiscent of the relationship between Harold Wilson and Marcia Williams, Lady Falkander, in the second Wilson administration. But both in the rumours that were going out around it, I think it's pretty much established that they did have an affair, not least because Marcia went and told Mrs Wilson that she slept with... I slept with your husband on five occasions in 1956 and it was unsatisfactory. Which is one of the greatest quotes ever.
26:47Saba Salman:Great performance review.
26:49Helen Lewis:I'll bring it up in his annual appraisal. Thank you for the feedback.
26:52Saba Salman:The idea that his wife was going to go, I'm sorry, he's got better at it, have another go. Very, very odd. But also the kind of over-the-top reaction to it. So famously, they sued the move. Do you remember the pop group? You won't remember the pop group. It was long before you were born. Flowers in the Rain, you might know. It was the very first record ever played on Radio 1, FactFans, Tony Blackburn Breakfast Show. But they released with that a sort of satirical postcard showing a cartoon, I think, of Harold and Marcia in bed together. And sued to the point where Harold Wilson and his estate still receive, oh, I think all royalties to that record, which is quite a big record in the 60s.
27:24Saba Salman:And donate them instead to Great Ormond Street Hospital. So, I mean, and constantly there were these rumours going around. I mean, Marcia Williams sued of this parish, our previous colleague, Francis Ween, for a drama that he wrote about her towards the end of her life, I think about 2006. which suggested all sorts of things which were pretty much established as fact like she wrote the Lavender List which was Harold Wilson's resignation honours list and she pulled in our favourite legal company, Carter Fuck and got an agreement from the BBC that that would never be broadcast again. So this sort of over-the-top reaction to things that just fuelled stories it's very much that kind of...
27:57Saba Salman:But it's also a similar sort of relationship I think because I mean latterly Harold Wilson has been established had Alzheimer's and was kind of not in control at all of what was going on within his own government. And this, as you said, the care home thing does sound slightly like...
28:10Helen Lewis:I think that's the thing, is that the reason that people get upset about it is because of the feeling that she is a gatekeeper and controls access to him in the same way exactly that Lady Falkender was, right? That you have to go through her. The power that gives to an unelected 35-year-old with no real background, who exists there purely because of a kind of personal patronage, isn't irritating to everybody around her.
28:32Saba Salman:Is there a broader sense of what this means for the Republican Party in particular as they barrel towards 2028?
28:38Helen Lewis:Well, I think the thing that's really interesting is this is part of a broader discussion about the tactics that the Democrats should use going into the next election. So the big thing that Michelle Obama said was, you know, when they go low, we go high. And yet you have seen, so Abdel El Saeed in Michigan, who's the Democratic candidate for Senate there, made a joke about Donald Trump shitting his pants in the Oval Office, right? Even Obama slightly edged a bit towards that in a call and response with somebody in a rally in 2024. So there is a kind of like, you know, do we get out of the kind of Trump's insult comic style politics?
29:12Helen Lewis:Or does everybody just embrace that now? Is everybody just, and I think the gloves are off. I went to the Democratic National Convention in 2024 where Elizabeth Warren, who is like 75, looks like a school mom, like Massachusetts senator, couldn't look more uptight, made a joke about J.D. Vance and the couch. Right. and I was like okay this is where we are now like there will be this substrata of rumors and memes on the internet that are things that no newspaper would ever publish because you know they're not true in many cases but it's like the story about you know the goat and they're like well make him deny it you know the story about like there's a apocryphal story about I'm going to say my opponent has sex with goats I just want to make him deny it there's going to be a lot of that stuff is going to come up in the next election where it's just going to be like these unbearably vicious, mean rumours.
29:56Helen Lewis:And then the thing is like, well, am I going to make them deny it? And there'll be a kind of knowing nod and a wink between people and their audiences. And John Ossoff's whole vibe is very much white Obama. So it's interesting to me that he's also doing this material. It shows that the appetite for kind of prissy, you know, like, let's get politics back out of the gutter is relatively limited in America.
30:19Saba Salman:That's a very decorous way of putting it.
30:22Helen Lewis:That's my way of putting it.
30:27Saba Salman:Andy and Anna here from your new favourite podcast, No Such Thing As A Fish.
30:32Adam Macqueen:Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy?
30:44Saba Salman:Yes, how about this one? Anteaters have evolved on 12 separate occasions. Wow. Mysterious, wonderful.
30:51Adam Macqueen:The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels, warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs.
31:03Saba Salman:So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are no such thing as a fish. Let's come now to a media organisation which wouldn't print any of these disgraceful things that you've been saying, Helen. The British Broadcasting Corporation. So there's a charter renewal coming, which always sounds incredibly medieval, which I love. Renew the charter. Sounds like they're going to have to go on a joust, doesn't it? But in 2020, what, it's the end of 2027, unless a new charter is agreed, the BBC just vanishes from existence. Ceases to exist, just vanishes off your TV screens and Broadcasting House just melts.
31:33Saba Salman:Exactly. So this is a thing that happens every 10 years and there's a lot of discussion about it at the moment, not least because there's an enormous gap in the BBC's budget. They're having to make big cuts of about, I think, a tenth of the workforce and the proportion of people who pay the licence fee is dropping. I think it dropped by something like half a million people last year, which is roughly 2 % of the existing household base who pay for it. So you've got this funny situation where the BB is still doing the same stuff, but the resources available to it are dropping. People are going elsewhere.
32:02Saba Salman:Everyone's on their bloody phones all the time. How does the BBC react? And this is something that you've been looking at in particular, Adam. It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. The licence fee, as you say, people paying it have gone down massively. The licence fee you have to pay for broadcast television, which the audience is declining, but not declining that much. There's still an awful lot of people out there who still watch linear television. and there's a whole argument about that signal being switched off at some point and when will be the right time to do that. But also you're supposed to pay it if you watch the iPlayer.
32:28Saba Salman:And the iPlayer has been up and running for over a decade now. And in this charter renewal thing, one of the questions that was put up for consultation by the government was, would it be an idea for people logging into the iPlayer, like when you log into Netflix online, you have to put in your password, to put in their licence fee number before they can watch it, rather than just have a box that says, you paid your licence fee, that you can just click. I always wonder if anyone ever presses no on that. Genuinely, this is what they're thinking about now because there's been this huge, huge drop-off in people paying it.
32:58Saba Salman:There's also all sorts of odd ideas. Did you see last week there was the big shindig up in Edinburgh, the Edinburgh TV Festival, because all festivals by law have to happen in Edinburgh in August just to ensure there's no hotel rooms or anything for anyone anywhere. But Matt Britton, the new BBC Director General, who came from Google, announced that he thought the iPlayer ought to be more like YouTube, owned by Google. They have this absolute obsession with YouTube. This is one of the other things that's in this charter renewal, is how much of their programming should be made available on YouTube, which is where younger people, 16 to 34-year-olds, that key audience who aren't watching BBC Output, you know, on their tellies anymore, or going over to YouTube and watching all of this.
33:36Saba Salman:But the idea that he came up with was that he made it more an open platform for creativity, Matt Bracken said. So you can create content about where you live, about the sports team you follow, about the skills and businesses in the area, and do that in line with our guidelines. So the idea that you're sort of opening up to, like YouTube is already, to people creating their own stuff and some going out under the BBC in premature.
33:59Helen Lewis:I'm against that. That reminds me of that time when you remember where Forbes and HuffPost and people like that were like, anybody can blog for us. And so there's just like random stuff on there from the 2010s.
34:08Saba Salman:Well, it reminded me as well of endless stories I've done for Street of Shame in Private Eye, which are about, effectively, a lot of media organisations have already tried this, particularly the big BMOs behind local papers. So Reach PLC, we reported recently, allowed a PR company affiliated to a news agency to provide content written in a page-ready format, which effectively, you know, no journalism involved at all, just companies punting their stuff directly onto newspaper websites. NewsQuest, we wrote about recently, the Bournemouth Echo, launched a new alliance, they called it, with a local vigilante group who'd been criticised, in fact denounced by the local police and the police and crime commissioner and the local council, but, you know, punted up a bit of money and now have this sort of sponsored page within it.
34:47Saba Salman:So effectively what you end up with this is what you've got on a lot of YouTube anyway. It's probably not getting much of an audience on YouTube, but sort of random people just doing self-promotional stuff. It sounds like a terrible idea to me. I think Britton said in the speech he was just kind of flying a kite. It's not, you know, it's not formal policy yet or anything to go with this. but I think he was trying to say that since the last charter was agreed in 2017, when TikTok didn't exist in the UK, when most households didn't even subscribe to one streaming service, the media landscape, great phrase, has changed so enormously.
35:22Saba Salman:How on earth does the BBC respond to it? And you're in a weird situation where the BBC has to produce high quality stuff. You know, stuff on the Beeb goes through a lot more checks. It goes through a lot more lawyers. Because it is held to a much higher standard than everyone else, and it's having to do that with fewer resources. And even when it has produced that stuff, a lot of it is then nicked or scraped by AI models, like Google's Gemini, which Matt Britton will know all about, I'm sure, which then is just being used for free. Even though, I mean, the Bieber's asked AI models not to just put out its stuff for their own good, and some of them do and some of them don't.
35:58Saba Salman:There is absolutely no question that, as you say, the landscape has changed massively. Things have got to change. The licence fee, I think, days have got to be numbered for that. There's got to be. It's something from 1927. There has to be a better way of doing it. Some of the ideas they're talking about as putting a graduated tax on your council tax and everyone pays for it, I think, are fairly bonkers as well. I would say, my suggestion, it's a mad suggestion on this, but the solution for the BBC is not to try and be more like everyone else, not to try and be YouTube, not to try and be Netflix.
36:24Saba Salman:What about being the BBC and actually doing those core things that the BBC is really, really good at? Because it's still, I think, the most trusted news brand in the country. and globally as well. I mean, the World Service is enormous sort of soft power all over the place. But they seem to be cutting resources from that. And the stuff that I think people, that justifies the licence fee to people and radio and the stuff that no one else is doing, they cut back enormously on local radio, which is a thing that no one else, because it would make no financial sense for any other broadcaster to try and launch anything like that from scratch.
36:54Saba Salman:To be fair to them, they have relocated some of the resources into kind of online local news. And the BBC News website, which I don't know about you guys, but that's one of the things I consult regularly through the day. It's got much, much better on targeted local news and stuff like that.
37:09Adam Macqueen:And they've got LDRS, haven't they?
37:11Saba Salman:Yes, the Local Democracy Reporting Service, which is one of those really unsung things that the BBC actually funds and puts out there reporters who are paid for out of the licence fee for local papers all over the country as well, who do a lot of reporting of local council stuff as well.
37:24Adam Macqueen:But if you're a young person and you know all about the creator economy and you're into TikTok and creating content, are you going to be thinking, well, this sounds great? this idea because if I produce something and then it goes out on YouTube under the BBC banner, I might get picked up. I'll be the next chicken shop date or I'll be the next people just do nothing or... Is there an element of that?
37:44Saba Salman:I think aren't they just hoping to get picked up on YouTube anyway and people become enormous on YouTube anyway. I mean, what everyone is saying about young people in the BBC is they're completely unaware of its sort of existence. So whether that would even count as a kind of imprimatur that the BBC have picked you up, I don't know. I mean, what's happened in the the past is when streamers have picked up on YouTube stars, it's tended not to work. So Mr. Beast, who is enormous on YouTube and huge with young people, did a big Netflix series, which they played...
38:14Helen Lewis:It was Amazon, I think. It was Amazon. It was one of the big streamers, wasn't it? Yeah, and it just didn't have the...
38:20Saba Salman:Not a success, and it annoyed YouTube as well. So his kind of place on their algorithm, I think, has suffered as well.
38:27Helen Lewis:But that's because he's designed essentially something that perfectly thrives in it. It's like a kind of animal that's evolved on an island, right? Because he'd like the thumbnail and he does the YouTube face and he would try it in the first six seconds if it had to be this. And the grammar of TV is completely different. I don't know why you'd think those things were port over.
38:43Saba Salman:It is a different thing, isn't it?
38:44Helen Lewis:The bit that annoys me is that no one will make the unethical argument for the BBC, which is essentially there's a reason that RT, formerly Russia Today, exists and Vladimir Putin is happy to fund it, right? And it's not because he's got a great belief of the freedom of journalism. It's because he wants to put his point of view and Russia's point of view across. Right. I happen to think that the BBC's point of view goes wrong in many ways. But it is generally one that is liberal in the best sense. It is factually grounded. It cares about accuracy. I think that is the kind of thing that democratically is really important to us.
39:14Helen Lewis:We should be putting out propaganda for the truth, essentially. That's the best way of describing it. But they lost that argument with the World Service, which is wild to me. Right. Do you want people in developing countries where it's really hard, often living under very corrupt regimes, to be getting their news from a Chinese news service or content creators on TikTok? Or do you want them to be listening to the World Service? It obviously helps our place in the world if it's the World Service. And they just lost that argument.
39:39Saba Salman:There is a very weird element to the way the BBC is discussed in the UK, which is that it's totally parochial to the UK and doesn't consider the massive global footprint. And I think the BBC is one of the most trusted news organisations around the entire world. and we're sort of fixated on celebrity traders or whatever, or, you know, a problem with Strictly or whatever it might be.
40:00Helen Lewis:But there is a version where that could work with the YouTube thing in a sense of putting more of their content online because already there are now adverts and pay gates on the BBC website abroad, for example. So there is an assumption that actually you and Britain get a better level of service in the BBC than everybody else. So you could have a similar thing where it was geo-locked and you put some of the content on YouTube.
40:20Saba Salman:Well, actually, I mean, everything is up for grabs in this charter renewal thing. I mean, the consultation, which is now closed, but one of the things proposed in that is, should there just be advertising on the BBC, which would be a way of funding it? I mean, advertising, the market has pretty much dropped out of because everyone would just fast forward through the adverts now. But there are problems with that model as well.
40:36Helen Lewis:Before we go, can we talk about somebody who has made exactly that decision that YouTube is the future versus the BBC, which is Amal Rajan. He spoke in Edinburgh, didn't he? He did as well, yeah. He's launched, what's his new venture called? Is it called Amal Rajan Connect?
40:50Saba Salman:Connection, yes, the Amal Rajan Connection. Like the Rainbow Connection and the Muppets.
40:53Helen Lewis:Or the French Connection. Or the Trojory Connection.
40:55Saba Salman:He's the Kermit in this. Right, OK. What he said in Edinburgh was, I've always been a bit behind the curve. I've always been basically in areas of rapid and accelerating decline. Because he started off in newspapers, famously. The Independent, which went online only. Doesn't that tell you something?
41:08Helen Lewis:Because it's a common denominator. That's very funny. Every battle I fought in, we've done all the last time.
41:15Saba Salman:There was something a bit strange about... Because he was saying... He said some very nice words about the BBC in his speech, but the ones which were picked up on were the ones where he said the BBC is screwed unless it completely changes, and it's in fact destined to decline at an accelerating rate, his words. And I did think it was strange seeing him interviewed by George Osborne on the Political Currency podcast, talking about the decline in print newspapers, because I thought, hang on, you, George Osborne, edited the Evening Standard at a time when it was doing disastrously. And I think...
41:47Saba Salman:Made it a hell of a lot worse.
41:48Adam Macqueen:But he made reference to that, didn't he? He said something like, I came at the tail end of it when it was on the turn.
41:52Saba Salman:No, hang on. It's not fair.
41:54Adam Macqueen:I put the last final stake through the heart.
41:58Saba Salman:Can I just also point out, George Orsman was also the man who took away funding for the BBC World Service. It used to be funded by the Foreign Office. And the country. The main BBC. So there's this thing of doing it solo. Clearly the idea that you'll be the next Gary Lineker and you will make millions of pounds with your brilliant show ideas is incredibly appealing. and it can sometimes work. I mean, it did fill, you know, the goal hanger shows. It doesn't always work. I mean, the Harry and Meghan empire, I know they're not, you know, brilliant media brains maybe, but that clearly hasn't worked.
42:30Saba Salman:So, yeah.
42:30Helen Lewis:There is a thing, I think, where people sometimes, I think of them as sort of cashing out, you know, like they use the BBC platform to build themselves up and just being on Radio 4 first thing in the morning or BBC One on primetime is an incredible gift. And I wonder sometimes, is people sometimes overestimate the amount that the audience is built to them versus people are just interested in what's on at the time. You know, a counterpoint would be someone like Adrian Charles, whose version of the one show was incredible and very well loved and then went to ITV and the alchemy just kind of wasn't there anymore.
43:00Helen Lewis:You can't just necessarily pluck someone out of one format and channel an audience into something else and they're the only bit of it that makes it work. It's all those people around them.
43:10Saba Salman:It's not always guaranteed. I would offer the cautionary tale of Andrew Neil, who walked away from a very, very high-profile gig at the BBC where he did all the kind of big election interviews and political programmes, to GB News where he lasted two weeks, discovered that there was kind of no money behind it, no production team behind it, and actually people didn't want to go on GB News, particularly this kind of new, as it was then, kind of upstart channel with very, very few viewers. And it all ended horribly. Is there a predictor of when these things will or won't work? I'm trying to draw a common thread out.
43:38Saba Salman:I think it's a bit like the movie industry, isn't it, where famously no-one knows anything.
43:41Helen Lewis:I mean, I'll be really interested to see what Amol does, because I think that that interview podcast circuit is quite saturated. You know, everybody's kind of doing one. I mean, that was what Megan tried to do. It was Megan talks to Serena Williams. And therefore the encounter generates it. And that's cheap compared with highly produced, you know, Radio 4 documentary style stuff. So it'll be it's you know, I think he's going to give it a good go, though, because I don't know if you follow his Instagram account. but he has leaned into being an influencer in a way that somebody of pretty much the same age I can't quite bring myself to do.
44:18Helen Lewis:I don't know if I can feel this belief in my dignity. I don't mean I have much dignity. You need an avatar.
44:22Adam Macqueen:You need a retro funk and soul avatar of yourself. I can't post videos of me working out though.
44:29Helen Lewis:Some part of me revolts against it.
44:32Saba Salman:One element I do think is fun is that if you have just slagged off the BBC in quite a big way the week before you leave your leaving drinks are going to be terrific. Yeah. Can I just make two points about the charter renewal thing? One is the presence of James Purnell now in number 10 as one of Andy Burnham's right-hand men. Now, James Purnell famously was cabinet minister long ago at the same time as Andy Burnham, then went to the BBC and was a very senior executive there, was in the running to be director general, I think, the time that Tim Davey got the job, and then left the BBC and has been doing various other things.
45:03Saba Salman:So, you know, there's a man with some interest and experience at the BBC. He talked back then when he was at the BBC about a public service algorithm, them which is one of those things there's a load of words that sort of sound impressive together but no one's quite sure what any of them mean but apparently that's one of the one of the things that's now kind of being punted around in the thinking about this and the other thing is the kind of pr battle that the b the b were doing at the moment which is where they they announce every so often that they're cutting something sort of high profile and it really struck me that first of all they kind of came for the broadsheet readers and they said no sorry the world tonight is going from radio four and everyone howled and then they came back a couple of weeks later and said yeah no blankety blank and celebrity mastermind and live at the apollo they're going as well.
45:39Saba Salman:Now, none of these are desperately expensive things. I mean, The World Tonight was produced out of a joint newsroom with various other Radio 4 programmes. Celebrity mastermind, I mean, you've got a chair already. So there's a sort of chipping away at sort of high-profile things, I think, so that people will kind of feel the hurt along the way and hopefully come back in so the BBC should have more money and more funding.
45:57Helen Lewis:All right, but Live at the Poly was an interesting test case because there was a bit of backlash from comedians, but the comedy scene has changed so much that actually people have managed to build really big, you won't know anything about this, Andy, people have managed to build really big followings online online are either through doing their own podcasts you know something like you know like a Shane Gillis or a Vittori Angeloni or people like that or through crowd work clips which do incredibly well on on social media and I think there was a feeling with that one that that was just that I think sometimes the BBC has to kind of go you know do we need to help comedians at the start of their careers anymore actually that that ecosystem looks relative people want to go and see live comedy that ecosystem is actually working quite well but you're right they do just go oh nice news night you got there shame if anything would have happened to it okay that's it for this
46:38Saba Salman:episode of page 94 thank you so much for listening or watching thank you to adam sabat and helen if you would like to get hold of a copy of private eye they're on sale they're actually just sold in shops but if you want one delivered to your home you can get a subscription at private hyphen i.co.uk it's less than any streaming service i can think of substantially less actually it contains more good stuff and it's all been lawyered very heavily so you know it really has absolutely everything you might want. So that's private-i.co.uk for subscriptions. We'll be back in a fortnight with another episode of this show.
47:13Saba Salman:It only remains to thank Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing this one. Bye for now. Andy and Anna here from your new favourite podcast, No Such Thing as a Fish.
47:24Adam Macqueen:Yes, we are two of the four hosts of the podcast that stuffs fascinating, amazing, weird, mad facts into your ears on a weekly basis. You got any good facts, Andy?
47:36Saba Salman:Yes. How about this one? Anteaters have evolved on 12 separate occasions.
47:41Adam Macqueen:Wow.
47:42Saba Salman:Mysterious. Wonderful.
47:43Adam Macqueen:The world really wants them to exist. What about this one? When Ronald Reagan left office, he left a note on the White House lawn for the squirrels, warning them to beware of George Bush's dogs.
47:55Saba Salman:So there you go. If you like fascinating facts and much more besides, we are No Such Thing As A Fish.
