Churn: The Hidden Force Shaping How We See Each Other | Claude Steele - EP 751

29:10And that's the other feature of it that I want to stress. That teacher can understand what those parents are going through and that parent, those parents can understand what that teacher is going through. And that really helps build the sort of trust that we're talking about. Using trust as the antidote to turn for someone who's listening, what specific signals communicate to someone that they will be judged fairly and that they're safe and valued in a situation? Yes, I think that's a great question and in some ways the heart of the book. and I think that I'll begin answering that by just giving an image of what trust is so the listeners will have a clear sense of that.

29:54Trust is, again, thinking of the parents and the teacher, for example. Trust is a tension between remembering and forgetting. Do I remember how my group is seen in this society and in history and then do I remember that and use that to interpret what's happening to me now in this situation? Or do I just forget that? Do I just forget that and take the situation in its own terms? That's what trust looks like. And you can also see how hard that could be to do. It's not easy to psychologically just say, I'm just going to forget all that and trust this teacher or trust these parents. So I just wanted to give a good image of what trust is.

30:37And then I do think the heart of building it, the first step is really seeing the person and having an interest in them. You're interested in me and you're paying attention. You're listening to me. Already I start to, that's a good first step toward trust because I see you're trying to see past the stereotypes and all that stuff that you could just sum me up with. And you actually have an interest in who I actually am. And so listening, asking questions, and then trying to address and help me with the things that you hear from me, that you learn about me in that mode. Those kinds of things really do go a long way toward building trust.

31:21I think all of us can think of examples where that's the case, where we trusted somebody because they seem to pay attention to us. And they seem to have our best interests at heart. And maybe they couldn't do everything for us, but they really tried to help us. Boom. That churn's gone or dramatically reduced. And we're off on a very different foot than we would otherwise be. And recognizing that in a diverse world where these identities can get in there and cause churn, that something like that is important to do is another ambition of the work is to show that, hey, it's worth taking, it's worth doing that.

32:04I could give you an experiment on giving feedback as an example. Yeah, that would be great. Okay. The colleagues and I, Jeff Cohen, Lee Ross and I, we did an experiment a number of years ago on how do you give feedback, critical feedback to, how does a white professor give critical feedback to black students and have that feedback be trusted? Basic question that right at this point we're addressing here. And so we had a white and black Stanford students come in, write an essay about their favorite teacher. And we told them if the essay was good, we would publish it in a new magazine we're starting on campus on teaching.

32:41Come back in two days and we'll give you feedback on that essay. And so when they come back in two days, we do give them feedback. We vary how we give them the feedback. That's the important part of the experiment. And we measure how much they trust it. And what we found was that when we gave the feedback, just straightforwardly, here's the feedback on your essay. Or we said something really nice about them first. I really like the energy you bring to my class. Here's the feedback. The white students, they trusted it because they're not under a stereotype about their abilities, a negative stereotype about their abilities.

33:17They're not thinking about that. So they just take the feedback straightforwardly. But the African-American students, they didn't trust it. They didn't trust it so much. And when you think about it, it seems strange because these are very strong students. They're at a university dedicated to their development and so on, and yet they're not trusting the feedback. But when you think about it, you can see that it's an ambiguous situation for them in that remembering, forgetting attention. Do they just forget that feedback giver might have a negative view of their group's abilities and that might have affected the feedback they got?

33:57Do they just forget that and trust that? So with that ambiguity in there, is it due to my work, this feedback, or is it due to his views of my group's abilities, this feedback? Is there bias? That makes it difficult, just structurally more difficult for them to trust the feedback, and they don't trust it as much. But the great news of that experiment is that there was a very simple way. Again, this is one of the facts that inspired me to get interested in this set of issues. There was a way of giving feedback that they trusted immensely, deeply. And it was very simple. In that case, the experimenter said, look, we use high standards in evaluating these essays because we might publish them.

34:42And so we're using high standards, but I've read your essay and I think you might be able to meet those standards. Here's the feedback. Well, when that happened, the Black students trusted the feedback more than any other group of participants in the experiment. Those two things were using high standards, And I think you can meet those standards. That told them that they're not being seen in terms of those negative stereotypes about their group's abilities. They're not being seen that way. They're all of a sudden free of that. When they're free of that, they wanted desperately to trust that feedback and use it.

35:17But they couldn't because it was ambiguous. Just a normal human thing. They're not even thinking about that. They wouldn't be able to describe what I'm describing here. Without those cues, those signals, it's ambiguous. That kind of illustrates what it takes to be effective in a diverse situation. White professor giving critical feedback to black students, maybe even vice versa in a different situation. that when we're in diverse situations, we need to pay more attention, see each other, try to put ourselves in each other's shoes a little bit more in these classic sort of biblical ways and understand what people are dealing with there.

36:02And once we do that, it surmounts these identity differences that otherwise seem insurmountable. And in important situations, like in classrooms, like in a doctor's office, and in a traffic stop. There's a certain approach illustrated in that condition of that experiment. We're using high standards, and I believe you can meet them. I'm giving you something when I say that. I'm saying there could be a difference between this. I could see you stereotypically, but I'm not. I'm seeing you as a human being, an equal human being. And with that, dramatically changes the course of things. And I could go on, but I think that may give people a sense of what I'm talking about here.

36:52I'm going to go on just for the sake of time, but because I want to get to your concept of wise and you introduced the idea of wise-wiseness. I'll let you give a broader definition, but my way of saying it is, wiseness is seeing full humanity in human difference. Yes. And you illustrate this through the relationship between Gil Evans and Miles Davis. For the listener who doesn't know who those are, maybe you can explain. But what allowed Evans to be trusted in a community that had strong reasons for them to be weary of Evans? Gil Evans, Miles Davis, as most people do know who he is, probably the greatest jazz musician of the 20th century.

37:39There'd be some argument there, but he's certainly my favorite. But he's a tough, cool guy, had a great sense of propriety over jazz as an African-American art form, and was concerned about the employment of Black jazz musicians and so on. So he's got a position in there. And Gil Evans is a tall, skinny white guy from Canada, was a band leader, and he famously ate radishes out of brown paper bags in these New York City sophisticated jabs clubs. So he's a square guy. But they hit it off because perhaps almost out of his naivete, Gil Evans was just interested in Miles's music and the experience from which that music came.

38:22He saw it. And Miles could see that, that he had a person here who was sympathetic with his experience and could see the connection between his experience and his art and so on. And so they became fast friends and then they became collaborators and they made some amazing music together. I think some of the most beautiful music, Miles Davis' melancholy horn and sweet orchestral arrangements, four or five albums that were just, I think, stunning albums. And when Gil Evans died, Miles Davis died not long after that and just really acknowledged that Gil Evans was his closest friend in life. There's a bridging of identities that you might not think would be probable, but happened through an attitude really on the part of both of them, but perhaps especially Gil, that he could see Miles' full humanity.

39:17Miles is very different from him, but in that difference, he could see full, equal humanity. And Miles could see that he could see that. And so he could put that question of remembering and forgetting, he could put that aside in that relationship and say, I can forget that in this relationship. He's a friend. I think many of us do have friends like that across identity divides. And I think that's the way I'm describing it is a helpful way of describing how it happens is that they can put aside this worry because they've got evidence that it's not valid here. I think we all have, or many of us have relationships like that.

40:00Our society still has enough segregation that perhaps not everybody has that. But I want to point out how possible it is, how big a difference can be bridged through this kind of wiseness. The term wise comes from an ethnography by Irving Goffman, a sociologist in the 50s, who interviewed gay men in San Francisco at that time. And he picked that term up from them. he interviewed gay men who were suffering. This was quite a stigma in the 50s. And those men had a certain term for straight people who saw their full humanity. And that term was wise. He's wise, man. You don't have to worry about him.

40:41He sees us as people. African-Americans have tons of phrases like this. He's cool, man. He's down, okay? You can trust him. You can trust him. That he sees our humanity. That is what I love that term wise because it has so many reverberating meanings, but it does capture this capacity to see the full humanity in difference. And I think this is one of the, in American society with the diversity that we have, it's such an opportunity in human history to be able to have that kind of diversity and see humanity in its different forms. And to understand that difference is usually our shared humanity contending with different circumstances, different situations.

41:31And that's how difference arises. But at base, it enables us that way of thinking about it to understand that full humanity can come in very different forms. And it doesn't mean that we can't bridge those differences. We can bridge those differences. I want to take this concept of wise and now, as you do in the book, start applying this to different scenarios. So in chapter five, you go into exploring how power differences complicate trust. And this is something that all of us experience. And an example of this is when one party controls outcomes. So this could be your Stanford professor who controls your grades.

42:14For me, it could be my boss who controls my promotions, or it could be a judge who controls a legal decision. So how in these scenarios should trust building be approached so it doesn't become an unrealistic burden on the less powerful group? I do think that it's wisest for the person in the more powerful position in a setting, in a classroom or in a doctor's office or in a police pullover. It's important for that person to lead with wiseness. It's a lot to ask the person who is in the least powerful position, maybe from a traditionally disenfranchised group. It's a lot to ask them to be the first to trust, because that could make them very vulnerable to the ill-intended use of power by the more powerful person.

43:06And maybe there's a history of that there. To approach them and say, be wise and offer trust is asking a lot, I think. And so I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it. And so the best sort of answer I could come up with is, generally speaking, the leader, the leadership, the people who are in leader's seat in a setting should be the first to do this. And then it takes off as the norm. It begins to be normalized in a situation, seeing human, full humanity in difference. It starts to become the normative way that the whole setting sees it then. So there are advantages of that person in the power seat doing this first.

43:51Now, having said all that, also in that chapter, I try to say sometimes the least powerful offer themselves up. They offer trust. This was one of the powerful strategies of the civil rights movement. This is Martin Luther King's genius. Absolute genius. Not uniquely genius. Gandhi before him and other movements before both of them. Nonviolence. You present yourself. I remember as a kid going to demonstrations. dress up, put on a tie, trust the situation. What you're doing is in those demonstrations, like in Birmingham or in Selma, we're going to live and act like free people would be able to live and act.

44:34So we're not going to ask for more than we're going to do that. And even though we know that trusting them or having faith in their capacities as human beings could get us hurt, we're going to do that. And so they did that. And those demonstrations, especially broadcast on television, transformed America. So it is possible that sometimes the least powerful, showing trust first, I trust you, even though you have the power to inflict considerable damage on me, my trust of you, and my behaving, I trust you, orderly, dressed well, so on. Then if you treat me with violence, you respond with violence, that becomes something that nobody else wants to be associated with.

45:23And that became, I think, one of the, that was one of the genius strategies of the American Civil Rights Movement in the late 50s and 60s was that, that approach. So it isn't always that the least powerful shouldn't go first. But I think when we're talking classrooms and offices and workplaces and so on, this approach, this strategy can be much more effective if the leadership do it first. One of the things you also talk about in this chapter is that trust doesn't only depend on warmth, but it also depends on perceived fairness and belief in one's potential. So you go into experiments on feedback across racial lines illustrate the point.

46:07Black students were skeptical of criticism from white evaluators unless the feedback included a clear message that high standards were being applied because the evaluator believed in the student's ability. Why did that wise feedback convey respect and expectation simultaneously? I think it conveys those things because from the student standpoint, they're in that remembering and forgetting tension in the situation. And that's ambiguating the situation. It's making it ambiguous and hard to know who am I dealing with? I'm in churn. And his behavior dispels that ambiguity, those remarks. That's what's the heart of that recipe of building trust is that that evaluator says, look, I'm going to grant you.

46:58I believe in you. You can think of a coach with an athlete. I believe in you. I'm going to give you that. And that disambiguates the situation for the student or for the athlete. I don't have to worry anymore about him seeing me stereotypically. He's not. That doesn't make sense to interpret him that way. I'm very anxious to be in a world in a situation where I'm not seen that way. So I really rise to that occasion because it's an opportunity maybe I don't always have. And boy, that's very empowering and endearing and brings us close and motivates me to do my best and so on. So I think that's the heart of what wiseness does is to disambiguate that.

47:42Should I remember or should I forget? Can I really forget? I think some of the tensions in African-American intellectual life between more liberal and more conservative points of view are almost around precisely that issue. Can I forget that possibility of being discriminated against or do I have to remember it? Yeah. And be vigilant to it all the time. That's a psychological weight that I think is at the root of some of my friends' disagreements over dinner.

48:16You expand upon this point in the next couple of chapters, and you start to argue how entire settings or entire environments, if you want to look at it that way, can be structured to reduce churn and to become wise. And I want to ask, Claude, what distinguishes an institution or a community that reduces churn from one that unintentionally applies it? Yes. I may be most fascinated about this, having been an administrator for a good number of years in a number of places. How should we as a, as a provost, how should we as a university approach these issues? and something I was, I think what I would have done, I think what most universities do is I have the very best of intentions and we set up a committee of people that are here.

49:04We need to improve our graduation rate and we need to improve the graduation rate for minority students and we need to have more women in STEM fields and so what should we do and well maybe we'll get a program that will help them overcome deficits in preparation and the like. So we think very reasonably like that. But a couple of academic units, in one case, the entire university, they were led, they approached this in a different way through a variety of reasons, in particular, the arrival of a particular faculty member who didn't see the students, didn't look at the students so much as an observer would and try to figure out what they would need.

49:46He actually tried to, he got to know students and he talked to them and he could see what they were concerned about and what they were worried about and what was affecting their ability to stay in college. And he designed things to meet those needs rather than impose his understanding of the situation. He let the students influence his understanding of the situation. And they were very different understandings. And what he found is that a lot of times it's not about ability at all and even preparation. It's about that they don't know what a university is for. They don't know the best, most effective ways of functioning in it.

50:22They don't know what opportunities it offers. The bureaucracy is intense. They don't hand in a form at a right time and they're out and we never see them again. And it's more of those things. So let's address those things. And when he did, he led the university, his university, this is Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia, that I'm talking about, they tripled their graduation rate in a very reasonable number of years, five, six, seven years. It made a dramatic difference putting your ear to the experience of the students and addressing those needs as opposed to projecting what I think is their problem.

51:06I'm not a student. I'm an observer of students, but I'm not dealing with that. So I think it's more ability, more preparation, skills. It doesn't seem to always be that way. What excited me about that is that, well, that's a very different way to look at these issues. And I tried to come up with a frame, a quick term, the observer versus the actor's perspective. The observer is, I use the example of, let's say my colleague and I have a research team meeting, that my colleagues are always late. Why is he always late? And I'm an observer of him. And when I'm an observer of him, he's in my line of sight.

51:49And so I come up with ideas about why he's late that are all about him. He doesn't care about our research. He's disorganized as a person. I can't count on him. All those things make sense because he's in my mind's eye as to what is and I'm using explanations that fit that. But my colleague, he's not, why are you late? My colleague, he's thinking very differently. He's not in his line of sight at all. The circumstances of his life are in his line of sight. So he's saying, I get out of a class just before this starts and it's hard to get across campus. That's why I'm late. Or I haven't been able to get a reliable nanny, or the traffic is unpredictable, or he has a variety of, he's looking at his circumstances.

52:41And so that difference, taking the observer's perspective, where we overemphasize the person and the things about them that could be causing the problem, should be added in with the actor's perspective, who is going to look more at the circumstances that they're actually contending with as a source of the problem. So when you think about large institutions, for me, that would be universities and colleges, higher education. For others, somebody else, it would be a corporation. For somebody else, still, it'd be a military division. I think the same principle holds that we can be more aware of the perspective we're taking and go to the effort of, again, asking questions, seeing the person and their circumstances, and then responding with solutions.

53:32I think that's an effective, wise way to make entire institutions wise, not just as individuals, but it can help us, an entire institution, be much more effective with handling diversity and all of our challenges. But that perspective difference, I think, is important. I do too. And I did want to come back to the individual that's in that institution. Like if you were someone who lives with chronic churn, what happens psychologically to you? Does it change how you see yourself and your own worth if you're in this constant churn state? Yes, it does. It's, I think it's very corrosive that I, let's say I'm, well, I was an African American student who went to college.

54:19And I used myself as an example in the book. I was, as a kid, I was a reader, but I don't know if I was that great a student. I was more interested in being an athlete and I was a swimmer of all things and it takes a lot of time. And when I went to college, I just didn't have a good sense of what it was about. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't have the right understanding of it and what was required to succeed at it. I took French and I thought if I studied for 10 minutes a night, that'd be pretty good.

54:54So I just didn't know where the hell I was at, what I was doing. So that gives me some sympathy with this whole problem. But I had a roommate who I describe in the book who said, look, that's not going to do it. And so eventually was persuaded by him. And I decided I'm just do everything he does. And he was a student. And oh, I was just like one aha moment after the next. Well, you're supposed to go to class and you're supposed to read the book before you go to class. Things that seemed very simple, but I went to a big urban high school and I just didn't learn those things in the south side of Chicago.

55:33And it wasn't so clear to me. So when I got to college, I needed that kind of an experience. So that gives me personally a sort of connection to this set of concerns that we're talking about. My mom is from Chicago, more of the Glenview North side, and she went to New Trader. My former in-laws lived in Glenview, so I know where that is. Beautiful park system up there. Beautiful, beautiful. I wanted to ask one more thing on this personal level. What helps a person develop a sense of internal trust? And the way I would look at this from my work is the feeling that they matter, even when they're uncertain, how others will judge them.

56:18Like, how does that manifest itself? You mean, you mean how do I build somebody else's trust in me or how do I build my own trust in me? I'm really getting after, can people rebuild self-trust after long periods of churn and what conditions make that possible? Yes, I do think we're just talking about might be an example. I do think as soon as you start to realize that really people are on your side and they are interested in you. Some of the things that, you know, when you interview people and you ask them about why did you go into this career or that career, they very often, I say, well, somebody told me I was pretty good at this.

57:03And that is enough often for a person to go down a whole path of life, a whole career path on that comment alone. So I think that's how powerful it is when somebody sees who you are and responds to you in a helpful, constructive way. It's incredibly powerful. That feedback and that experiment, we're using high standards. I read your essay and I think you can meet those standards. Wow. If somebody told you that, well, okay. And it really be transformed. You really give yourself to doing that. You'd be able to withstand a lot more frustration. Maybe you wouldn't make it in the end. I'm not saying every time that would prevail, but you'd get a lot farther down the road with having been launched with that kind of a feedback, that kind of a remark, than you would without it.

57:55I think that's true for anybody, but I think it's especially true for people with identities that are negatively stereotyped because of the whole ambiguity we've been talking about. This ambiguates, oh, there are stereotypes out there about my group, and people could see me this way, and I might have to just deal with that, but this person doesn't see me that way and really sees some potential in me. Well, that's a very powerful kind of experience for a person. And it certainly was critical in my life. And I think it's probably true in many of our lives that I can name the people who said those things to me, things like that.

58:37And that changed me completely. It really did reorient me in some very powerful, immediate ways. And the last thing I wanted to ask you about just before we wrap up is if leaders, educators, doctors, families could adopt just one principle listening to us today to reduce churn and build trust across the differences, what would you want them to most understand? Yeah, I love that question because the answer I love so much. And I love the answer because it's something people can do. It's not something that's hard to do, because I think trust is a game that is played on the ground. And it's who shows up and who listens again, and then who tries to respond to what they learn from that listening in a constructive, helping, supportive way.

59:31So the end of the book tries to pull all this together in a general model, a general approach for how to do that. And the first step, and maybe the most important step, is to take the time to actually try to see the other person, to try to understand the life that they have and what they are contending with. Not so much my own speculation about what they're dealing with, but talk to them. Really try to figure out what are they dealing with? What's important here? Georgia State, for example, they changed their financial aid system as opposed to giving students a block grant, so to speak, as a financial aid, a fellowship or a scholarship of some sort.

1:00:15They realized that students need money, especially low-income students, they need money to deal with crises, with economic shocks to the family. And so you can, if you can't pay, if your car needs to be fixed, come in and we'll give you money for that. You can't pay your tuition bill, we'll give you money for that. So that's how they use their financial aid to meet more urgent circumstances. Now that's a very insightful thing. That's actually seeing past the, and I'll just give you a block grant. And they also accompany that, I should point out, with financial literacy training so that students seems like, wow, why would you do that, get that in college?

1:00:53But that can be very helpful. Those are good examples. I offer them as examples of what you get when you see, when you listen closely and try to see the circumstances that in that case students were really dealing with. And then you try to meet those. Then those students really do trust you. They don't care whether you have the same identity or not. It's the least important thing to them. All that stuff, all that abstraction and emotion around identity goes out the window. This person cares about me and helped me. And that's such a powerful human force and potential. And it's so easy to do it.

1:01:33That's what easy to do it probably. It's a bit of an overstatement sometimes. Listening can be very hard. We know that. Taking the time to listen and to then respond constructively and helpfully. I don't mean to diminish the effort involved in that. But it's accessible. It isn't mysterious. And I think in a society like ours, this magnificent, multiracial, multiethnic society that we have, these skills are especially important. And I think a lot of us have them. And it's just really pulling them together and trying to help them be more of a foundation in our society that this work aspires to do.

1:02:16I love that. It reminds me of the work of the late Emile Bruneau and Josh Green's work at Harvard about seeing the other side. So I'm going to end here, Claude. In your coda, you end on this note. Trust building is a game, like you just mentioned, played largely on the ground. It's who listens, listens again, is genuinely welcoming, and collaboratively gives people the help they need to succeed in a setting. It's who's wise. This is the heart of the matter and anybody that is everybody can do it. I love how you ended the book and I would highly encourage my audience to pick up a copy of this great book, Churn.

1:02:58I thoroughly enjoyed it and it was such a profound honor to have you here today. If someone wants to learn more about your work, Claude, where is the best place for them to go? Well, I think Churn does cover a lot of the heart of it. Another book, Whistling Vivaldi, is an earlier book that kind of gives the history of the research on stereotype threat that can sometimes be helpful to people. It too has a lot of stress on how to use it in various circumstances. But I'm caught up in the, I think Churn is a more general statement. So I think it may be more useful to people in terms of using it in their lives and in the settings in which they function.

1:03:37Well, awesome. And I was also very happy to see you also had Greg Walton and Mary Murphy in the book, whose work I really appreciate as well. Yeah. So thank you so much, Claude, for joining me. It was really an honor. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a real pleasure. That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Claude Steele. What stood out most to me is this. So much of what shapes our lives happens in moments we barely notice, not just in what we say, but in what we feel in the presence of others. That subtle tension, that hesitation, that question in the back of our minds, how am I being seen right now?

1:04:14Claude gives us a language for that experience. And once you see churn, you start to realize how often it's there in conversations, in workplaces, in relationships, even in moments where nothing is explicitly said. But what's powerful is this. The problem isn't just bias. It's the fear of being misunderstood, the fear of being reduced to something smaller than who you really are. And the solution isn't perfection, it's trust. It's the willingness to see someone fully, to signal that they're safe, that they're valued, that they won't be judged by the worst possible interpretation. Because when that happens, the tension disappears, and what's left is something far more powerful.

1:04:50Connection, understanding, and the possibility of showing up as your full self. And that insight leads directly into our next conversation. On Thursday, I'm joined by Angela Myers. If today's episode was about how we're seen by others, Angela takes us to something even more fundamental, why it matters that we feel seen at all. Because at the core of so much that we've been exploring in this series, meaning, connection, identity, is a deeper human need, the need to know that you matter. If Claude Steele helps us understand the tension in human interaction, Angela Myers helps us understand what's at stake.

1:05:22Because when people feel like they don't matter, everything else begins to break down. You won't want to miss it. I don't think we have a loneliness problem. I think we have a mattering problem. I don't believe we have a suicide problem. I believe we have a mattering problem. Mattering comes first, period, biologically, sociologically, physiologically. And if we guarantee those conditions, then those are consequences of either feeling like you do matter, feeling significant, or feeling insignificant. again. We treat the symptom of insignificance, but we don't treat the core of what it takes to feel significant.

1:06:03If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need it. Leave a five-star rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Watch the full conversations on our YouTube channels. And if you want to go deeper into this idea, my upcoming book, The Mattering Effect, coming October 6th, is available now for pre-order. Until next time, remember, a meaningful life isn't just built by what you achieve. It's shaped by how you show up, how you connect and how you make others feel seen. I'm John Miles, and you've been PassionStruck.

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