How Real Optimism Helps You Thrive in Uncertainty | Deepika Chopra - EP 761

28:10And so we hear that enough, see it enough, feel it enough. And oftentimes these can be silent cues in how people react. And again, sometimes they are coming from our own insecurities and inability to live in discomfort. But whatever it is, we are taught this at a young age. And so then we get to a place like college and that makes perfect sense why there would be so much paddling. I see in elementary school, so much paddling underneath the surface, performance on the top surface and wanting to take less space and just make sure things like you're easygoing and the idea of always being in forward motion.

28:51And I think that's really important to be in forward motion, but we all, in order to truly be in forward motion, you can't discount what's happening below the surface. And the only way to change that again, is to help yourself by being a model around other people and by giving other people in your own small networks. And really, this is something that you can do literally today in your own small community and network. It is trying to challenge yourself to allow the people around you to experience their full human range of emotions and try to sit in that discomfort and not discount or vilify that experience.

29:32Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to move the discussion to the topic of expectations, manifestation, and the brain. And as I was doing research on you, I realized you and I do something similar, but a little bit different when we both do public speaking. I oftentimes plant a golden ticket under one or two of the chairs in the audience. And I start with an ice break about who's got the golden ticket. And the golden ticket, if they win it, is they win a copy of my book. But what they don't realize is typically if they get the golden ticket, it also means I'm likely going to bring them up on stage for an exercise so they have to earn the book.

30:14Yeah, yeah. But you do an example where you ask the audience who wants to win the lottery. Yeah. And what ends up happening? Do people raise their hands? Yeah. So it's really to illustrate this idea that I think we spend a lot of time, especially when we're talking about this term manifestation, which nowadays is so mainstream. And I think most people understand the concept of it. And some people define it so well, really with neuroscience in mind. And a lot of other people don't. don't. And I think there's some missing pieces from a neuro and brain standpoint that are really imperative for people to understand if they're talking about that.

30:57One of the things that I love doing is asking people, this is really rating something that they want and putting it up against something that they really expect to occur. And so I will sometimes ask a large group of people, how many of you guys would want to win the lottery? Given the chance, would you want to win the lottery. And of course, everybody, most everybody raises their hand. I'd love to win the lottery. And there's always a couple that are, I don't want to win the lottery. That's very rare, but no, I'm not going to participate. But for the most of the audience, people are all raising their hands.

31:28And then I ask, if you bought a lotto ticket this morning, keep your hands raised. And very few times are any hands still held up, but there are a couple. The majority of people's hands quickly go down and there's some chatter. And I think it just makes perfect sense. It's not a surprise. If your brain does not expect something to occur, and that could actually be a likely possibility, it doesn't put forth the attentional capacity or prefrontal cortex, start turning on to give you solutions, to start taking actions, to put you in a place where you're actually likely to make this one want into reality or materialize it.

32:13And so you can want to win the lottery, but if you don't expect that you're going to win, you're most likely not going to buy a lottery ticket because it seems like a waste of energy and time. And so that makes a lot of sense. And it honestly is part of the way it's part of our brain working in the right way. It's an efficiency process and we have a limited attentional capacity. It cannot tend to everything. So it prioritizes things that it can actually expect to occur. And so when I work with people, I'm working a lot within that gap and closing that gap of want and expectation. You say something fascinating that I've heard you say in a couple other interviews, and that is we don't always get what we want.

32:58We get what we expect. Yes. And why are expectations so powerful in shaping our behavior and outcomes? They're so powerful because again, your brain prioritizes putting forth all the steps and necessary attention and solution focus into the things that it deems possible to happen and likely to happen. And you can want until the cows come home, but unless you expect it to happen, your brain's not helping you out with all the different things and the pathways that you need to actually put yourself into taking an action like buying a lottery ticket. Or if you do not, you could want a relationship so badly.

33:40You can think about it. You can cut out words related to it and stick them on a piece of paper. You could really rate 10 out of 10. I want to be in a relationship. But then if I ask that same person, one to 10, how much do you expect or believe that this is going to happen for you? And if that's somewhere living in three or four, your brain is not putting forth the energy or the attention or the pathways to connect you to doing and taking part in the behaviors that would actually likely get you to be in a place like, for example, you most likely are not thinking or saying yes or hoping to the idea when someone invites you somewhere or putting yourself in a situation where meeting somebody that could be a future partner is likely to happen.

34:30And so until you close that gap and you see it more as a possibility, we don't have the brain and the way it works on our side. And that is a powerful mechanism. And so I think we skip that part a lot. We skip it over on what am I truly expecting to happen? What do I really think? I know what I want, but how likely do I think that it can occur for me? And this is not magical thinking. It's literally thought, emotions, and behaviors, and taking action. And I think another piece that's missing in the process is most always these things take work, and there is a journey, and it's not about thinking about something and then expecting that it just falls into our lap.

35:12There's a lot of process in between that. And it is a powerful process. We can, our thoughts are so powerful and we can think about something and change our expectations and remove and soften really concrete, negative, self-limiting beliefs. We can do all these things, but they take time and practice and work and they're not impossible, but it's also not a passive process. Yeah. When I think about manifestation, which has become so hugely popular, I often think about the story of Matthew McConaughey and how a decade ago or so he wrote down on a piece of paper, these things he wanted to happen in his life.

35:54And for him, they've all seemed to come true. But for a lot of people, they do vision boards, affirmations, they ask the universe for things. And oftentimes it doesn't come true. You talk about evidence-based manifestation, which you were alluding to, and having to do the real work to make these things come true. What happens with evidence-based manifestation so people can actually put these affirmations to work in a way where it'll help their brain rather than work against it. And you bring up another sort of buzzword, and that's affirmations. And I think most people, the way they use affirmations are they use generic blanket statement affirmations.

36:42We've all heard many of them. I am capable. I am strong. I am lovable. Whatever those are, we have these affirmations that we're told that are really powerful and affirmations because thoughts are powerful and beliefs are powerful. They do work, but there is a big caveat with it that I think we overlook. So first of all, research shows us that affirmations actually don't work for the most part for the people that really truly need them. And if you're someone that believes, you know, where I think blanket statement generic affirmations do work they work most always with children because kids have not yet racked up years and years of experiences and interpretations of situations that have now cemented into core beliefs or really hard rigid beliefs about stuff Like they don't have that in them.

37:43They're so much more malleable and flexible and everything's an opening. And so I think a generic affirmation that's a positive affirmation is great for kids. And then over time, as we grow up and we have our own experiences and appraise all the situations that we go through and we start collecting them as evidence, I'm a big believer that the brain is constantly collecting evidence. We're like detectives. And the more we do this, first of all, we make a belief. And then from that, our brain loves to collect more evidence to make something we believe even more true. And so then that belief has become further cemented.

38:23And we just go through life because we're tuned into that radio station constantly and quickly seeking out ever more evidence to make whatever that belief is more and more true until it becomes a core belief. And this process over time just becomes automatic because again, it's part of our brain's efficiency. And sometimes that can be a good thing. And a lot of times that can be a detrimental thing. And so when you tell someone that has collected enough evidence and has cemented a belief strongly enough over 40 years, 30 years, even 20 years, that they believe something like, I am unlovable. And then you tell them to just look in front of the mirror and say, I am lovable, deserving.

39:05I'm a deserving of love person. I'm lovable three times before bed and three times when they wake up. That is the place where it can become not just not useful, but actually detrimental because now your brain starts to resurface and almost a opening a file in a computer. It clicks on the file of I am unlovable and it starts all the other files within it and documents start populating of all the reasons why you are not lovable and the reasons why you do believe that belief and how silly of you to ever think that you would say this statement that is the complete opposite. And now not only do you further believe what you believe, but you also feel shame and guilt and a real dip in confidence for even saying that other thing out loud.

39:54And so it can be very detrimental to people that are really holding this self-limiting belief that need it the most. And so I have come up with something that I call the seven-tenths rule. And I really believe in measurable, quantitative ways to work within these constructs and these tools. I come from a cognitive behavioral background. So I love things that are measurable and I love rating things. And I would say if you 10 being you believe it the most, it's so true for you. Zero being you believe it the least. It's not true at all. If you can rate an affirmation, a positive affirmation, seven out of 10 in believability, then it is a affirmation I think would be really helpful to use and go seek out more affirmations like that.

40:48And you will if you start repeating those. That's how the brain works. But if it is under seven out of 10, then we need to come up with different affirmations that are similar and in the same realm, in the same direction, but not that affirmation and that you actually believe it seven out of 10 so that it can be useful to you. And once you find out what those are, so in that example, if the person is really wanted to use the affirmation of I am lovable, that they believe it like two, one, even zero, then we want to start asking them like, what is one thing that you do like about yourself? Just one thing.

41:25And sometimes it's hard for people to come up with, but for the most part, after some probing, you can get someone to at least say one thing that they like about themselves. Maybe it's I'm a good friend or I really like the way that I cook or I like that I'm reliable, you know, whatever that is. Or I think I'm kind or whatever that one thing is. They pick one thing that they like about themselves. We rate that. If that makes the cut of seven out of ten, we use that as the affirmation. And you say that enough times, the way the brain works is it seeks out more evidence and proof to add to that to make it more true.

42:05And then you have this like bubble of within a couple weeks, maybe three to five more believable affirmations that are like that. And over time, maybe in a couple months, you might not be able to yet say I'm a lovable person, but you certainly have enough evidence to go against your initial belief of I am not lovable and I am not deserving of love from people. And so you want to slowly start softening and chipping away at the negative self-belief without driving down the highway at 150 miles per hour and asking someone to make a turn lead in the other direction or crash and burn. What you're talking about, though, is fundamentally so sad.

42:49Honestly, how many people feel that way? And the statistics, I'm just going off on a tangent here, are pretty eye-opening. That 64 % of workers feel like they don't belong in their work environment. 68 % of people feel like they don't belong in the United States. And 74 % of people in America don't feel like they belong in their communities. There's something fundamentally going on where so many of us are living in an inauthentic version of who we think we should be. And we wear all these masks to perform a different version of us. And I think that is what is leading so much to the loneliness, hopelessness, whatever you call it, that so many people are facing.

43:36Just last month, there was a survey done and a study done. And we are living in terms of our future optimism in America. It is the lowest it's been in 20 years. And I think that stat or even just hearing it or some of the stuff that you're bringing up, which is so true, because now we're talking a lot about this idea of not feeling connected. And we know that connection. And again, mattering is a big part of that. connecting with others, we are social creatures, is the hallmark of well-being and the Harvard longitudinal study that came out a few years back. And we know that the single most important factor to predict happiness and a sense of contentment is our level of connection with other people.

44:23These numbers are staggering on people in this country not feeling like they belong and that they have a space or a place. And I think that this pessimism that we are in, the most pessimistic state we've been in over 20 years, is not a surprise. I think so many of us can be like, well, have you woken up? Do you know what we're living through? Every day feels like a struggle. And that's why I think this work and the tools in The Power of Real Optimism are so timely and so important and really honestly urgent because I truly believe that the answer to this is not to look away. And I think a lot of people think, well, like we're just not, we weren't meant to be exposed to this much all at once.

45:08And that is true. We were not, our brains were not built for that. And there is an aspect of that where we need to work on boundering, like how much information and stimulation we are exposed to, of course. And that's something else that I want to talk about and the nervous system. But the point is, I've been sharing this new stat and people are kind of just like, yeah, well, duh. And for me, that stat was not, yeah, duh. Of course. I know that's not surprising. It wasn't a stat that is like, whoa, I would never have thought that. But it is a stat and some of the ones you listed too, that are astounding enough that we are like, this should make us want to do something.

45:49We need to change. And what it tells me is that people are not looking for positivity. They are looking to be equipped with the tools to navigate through everyday life. And that is what I am passionate about and what the book is about. It is giving people the tools so that they don't look away and they're not being numbed out and paralyzed by the fact that we're desensitized because every day feels like you just read the headlines or you wake up and you just start your day and there's 50 things that have already happened that should be shocking to you, but you heard the same 50 things yesterday or maybe 44 of them the day before.

46:31And now you're almost becoming apathetic. And because it's a survival method, we can't carry everything the way we are carrying it. We need a new way. And so these tools are equipping ourselves to be able to show up, stay engaged, still be deeply caring about our own lives and about the world, but have a way to carry it and walk through it without numbing out. And I think that is really important and something we don't necessarily teach. And it is important to learn these tools. We have it within us. They are, again, they are trainable and it is like a muscle. And if there's one thing I think we need, it is to learn these tools so that we can keep showing up and staying engaged because that's important.

47:23We need to still be engaged with our community. We are social creatures and that's a part. We need to feel like we matter. Are you familiar with Robin Dunbar? No. Oh, so Robin Dunbar was a British anthropologist and came up with this, what's called Dunbar's number, which is that we are wired evolutionary wise to have no more than 150 connections. And I think I've done some solo podcasts on this topic. And one of the things I think that's happening is we in the world now are essentially being asked to be present for what's happening to 7 billion people instantaneously. So negative things that are happening across the world, we're supposed to be an expert in them or I think we're held to that standard.

48:21and evolutionary wise, there's no way that we can do it. So there's just a huge mismatch between what's going on. And there's no wonder people feel so exhausted and overwhelmed. We are stretched past not even what our capabilities are. We are stretched past what we were made for, built to do. And so I think that's so right. And that's true for so many different, And it's true in the attention space. It's true in the emotional space. It's a really tough time. And that's why I think we need more tools that are based on reality. And so for me, it was really important to write down a collection of real optimism tools for real humans living real lives in 2026.

49:09It is important to meet people where they're actually at and what we are collectively going through. When our time left, I wanted to give the audience a couple practical tools. So since becoming a mom, you focused on helping a lot of parents raise more optimistic children. What are the most important things parents can do to cultivate resilience and optimism in their kids? I like the most important thing. And I think many of us think we have to have the perfectly curated sort of response and teaching moment when our kids are going through a struggle or when they share something with us, we need to have this curated response that has all the lessons and the teaching moments in it.

49:53And the truth is our kids don't necessarily learn that way. Our kids learn from modeling. And so if you yourself are open to the idea of growing and you're working on your own real optimism and you're doing that in your daily life, whether it's really small or have significant strides, your kids are watching this and that is how they learn. They learn through watching you persevere through your struggle and your tough moments. And so number one, don't shy away from showing them that process, but focus on your own growth. And I will say something really important that I didn't say before, but this works here too, that our brains prioritize safety and survival over growth.

50:43And so we can have all the tools, we can construct the best rituals and read all the books and listen to the podcast, but unless you truly feel safe and regulated. And that is from a nervous system standpoint, your brain can't focus on growth. And so the first and foremost step is to show your kids by working on yourself, how important it is to be regulated and to be feeling a sense of safety and whether that are really small. Sometimes I will be like, wow, I saw this meme the other day and I was talking about it with a friend, but it was of like a mom answering her child and she's answered back really perturbed and annoyed.

51:28She was like, what? And then she, you see her in her face being like, okay, I want it. That was not right. And then she does it again. And she keeps trying to ground herself to say it better, but it comes out the same each time because she is up to here and she's running on empty. And so I take that a step further where I have definitely multiple times a day been in a state like that. And I will out loud tell my kids and be like, I feel I'm running on empty and I need to just do something for a moment that helps me. That's a tool for me. And then I'll come right. I'll be right back and it'll be 15 seconds.

52:06And I might, for me, I know I love helping people come up with their own unique toolbox. And I now know what mine are. And I think just sharing that in your daily life with everybody, you know, like, I'm like, I need to do a four, seven, eight breathing right now and take that time to reset and then be like, okay, it doesn't change the circumstances. It doesn't buy you more time, but it shifts your physiology. And when you shift that, your brain is a little more open to possibility and solution. You can't really operate from empty all the time. And even if it's a short, and I think what people don't understand is the beauty of this.

52:45And the thing that makes me so optimistic are there are so many different small ways to do this that literally take 15, 30 seconds. And again, it's not magic. It doesn't change the circumstance, but it helps us navigate better throughout it. So I think modeling is probably the biggest thing. And the second thing I would say is really to start to shift your language. And language is really important when we're talking about real optimism. And we want to try and shift, especially when we're going through setbacks or roadblocks in our daily life. We want to shift from the automatic of saying, of course this happened, this always happens, or this is always going to be this way.

53:25And we want to help and shift back to that explanatory style of teaching that this is temporary. And yes, this sucks, but this is temporary. Or like really making something specific and not pervasive. So shifting our language, wow, that person cut me off. That sucks. Like I'm allowed to say that, but not, this always happens to me. It's always going to happen to me and so forth. And the last thing I just wanted to briefly touch on is your chapter 10, which is really about the science of self-care. And one of the things that you had in here is I'm a huge fan of Dacher Keltner, University of California, Berkeley.

54:03And he writes a lot about awe and how do you experience in everyday life. And I love his concept of moral beauty. I've probably talked about it more than any other concept. And I actually, in my children's book, put this into life because I've created a whole platform called Pass the Ripple, where his moral beauty is all about everyday acts of kindness or how you experience awe in the most pervasive way. And you can do it every day. So I thought, what a great way to teach kids that they can experience awe by performing acts of kindness. And acts of kindness is something that you like to talk about as well.

54:40So I was hoping we might be able to end here. And what practices do you suggest that listeners can do to implement this more in their everyday life? I love awe and the studies that came out so recently on the power of awe and actually how it's such an antidote for anxiety and is actually more potent than even like forms of gratitude for anxiety. Gratitude is very powerful and has a lot of research behind it. But awe, I think I was so excited to read that research when it came out. It's my favorite type of tool to weave in into my work as well. So I understand why you're so drawn to it. And I think the interesting part of that is like we can really find awe in the most small mundane moments and we can be intentional about the awe.

55:27And so we can actually intentionally seek it out on purpose. And I think that's the point of all of this is these can be the set of tools and you could listen and be like, wow, that makes a lot of sense. But these are not things that necessarily from an evolutionary standpoint, we are predisposed to doing naturally. These are things that we have to intentionally make time and space for and create. And so, yes, like seeking out awe, whether it is whatever can bring you awe. For me, it's a piece of music. And if I notice myself getting lost in it and transcended, that is awe to me. And I mark that down and I revisit it.

56:08Or experiencing awe comes from being present. So when you go out for a walk or you look out of your window, you're asking yourself, like, what am I truly seeing right now? And you'll notice things that were always there, the tree that was always there outside the window. But just today, because you're asking yourself to zoom in on it and focus it the way that it is moving in the wind against the backdrop of the sky, that can bring you this sense of awe, which is this feeling of being transcended, inspired, or feeling like you are a small part of something much bigger. and there's a lot of protective measures psychologically in awe and yes so much research done on small big all kinds of acts of kindness something that I always like to throw in is acts of kindness is actually protective against depression and so I thought that was really interesting I talk about it a lot when someone is going through depression our intuitive response is to not burden them, of course, with anything.

57:09We'd love to help, but we're not going to burden them with asking for help when someone is experiencing that level of struggle. But really, research shows one of the best things we can do is actually ask them for help, is to help put them in an experience of doing something kind for somebody else. It is literally like a prescription. So the next time you have a friend that is struggling, obviously, it depends what type of struggle it is, but is emotionally struggling and you needed, I don't know, an airport pickup or you were going to go volunteer somewhere and you thought, oh, I'm not going to ask them because they're obviously burdened.

57:46try to put yourself out there and think of it as a way of helping them and ask them to come with you and volunteer. Like you could be very well giving them the tool and the skill that they need that is really helpful to put them in a place that is protective against the pervasive inner spotlight that depression makes you feel and help you feel, help them feel connected and part of something bigger and a sense of self-mastery even. And lastly, for listeners who have tuned in today and want to learn more about you, your practice, and where they can get the book, which will be everywhere here in a couple of days, where's the best place to go?

58:23So you can always say hi to me on Instagram. I'm not great at all the socials. I pick one. That's the one I'm on. I love having conversations about all of this. I answer all the DMs. It's really me. Please reach out to me that way. You could reach out my website. I also have a deck of cards that are really great for kids and for adults called Things Are Looking Up. You can look that website. But yes, the book, The Power of Real Optimism is available everywhere you buy books. Please buy the book, shoot me a message, talk about it with me and share the book and the message and this movement of real optimism with everyone you know, because I truly believe that is the antidote to the collective experience and uncertainty and heaviness we are all feeling right now.

59:11Well, it was such an honor to have you on the show today and congratulations on this fantastic book, The Power of Real Optimism. Thank you so much, John. That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Topeka Chopra. And what stood out most to me is this. We often think optimism means believing everything will turn out exactly as we hope. But Topeka reminds us something far wiser. Real optimism isn't certainty, it's courage in uncertainty. It's the willingness us to face difficulty without surrendering possibility. And maybe that's the deeper lesson of this entire Purpose by Design series.

59:45Purpose is designed through how we relate to meaning, to identity, to effort, to connection, and ultimately to possibility. Because maybe the future isn't shaped most by what we wish for, but by what we expect enough to move toward. And maybe optimism, real optimism, is one of the most courageous forms of intentional living there is. And that insight leads us into a powerful new chapter. Next week, we begin a brand new series that I'm calling Forged in Adversity, How Struggle Shapes Meaning, Resilience, and Transformation. We open it with Kathy Gaiesti in a conversation called From Fatal to Fearless, Turning Crisis into Calling.

1:00:25It's about what happens when adversity doesn't just test you, it transforms you and you won't want to miss it. I think the fear of relapse is what survivors struggle with the most because whenever you have a certain ache or pain or things happen, your automatic instinct is to think the cancer is back. And it does happen. In multiple myeloma, we have survivors that have been out 10 years in remission and it's still relapsed. It does happen. That's why we continue to force the progress on new treatments. And oncology has seen unbelievable advancements, thank God. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who may need a new way to think about hope.

1:01:05Watch our podcasts at our YouTube channels and explore more insights at the ignitedlife.net. Until next time, remember, purpose is not discovered all at once. It is designed through a thousand conscious choices. I'm John Miles, and you've been PassionStruck.