Strength With Heart: Redefining Masculinity and Compassion | Daniel Ellenberg – EP 725

31:52There are a lot of women who are. Again, I'm not a big, broad, brushstroke person. I don't put all women in one category or all men. People are different. ways. I do think a lot of men do grow up in general, not learning about how to nurture, how to be there with their children in a way. And it's just not steeped in the land of relationship. And that's part of, I think, what this pastor was speaking about. And I agree with that. I think that is a problem and that a lot of guys just need to, on some level, get some basic education. around how do you be a good father? How do you be a good man? And how do you actually show up for other people in a heartful and also decisive way?

32:43You mentioned my work with Strength of Heart. And part of the difficulty I see in general in the world is that we tend to split these things off like you're either strong or you're kind. It's insane. somehow if you're strong but you show care that makes you weaker really yeah i don't think so at all but this is part of the difficulties that we're seeing in general that when i see that some of it's changing some of it has to do with when athletes will come out and will show a tender side of themselves. And I do think that there's a lot of ways that guys in general can be and are compassionate that isn't recognized as that.

33:31I was remembering like in the Olympics when the gymnast team, one of the guys, I think there were five of them, one of them who was considered like the best on the horse, I think it was, and he fell off of it. And he was devastated. He had the peripheral head between the legs. And one of his teammates came up to him and they showed this and he put his arm around him. I just thought that was a beautiful moment of showing compassion. Not all the time. Even football players, somebody goes down, everyone's there. A kicker misses a field goal when the placeholder put his arm around him. Well, even recently when John Harbaugh was let go by the Ravens, there have been a lot of reports that so many of the superstars on the team came into his office crying.

34:17Oh, I haven't heard that. yes, showing the support that they had for them. So it's really powerful for me to see the symbolism of those types of acts, because you don't see it very often these days. I don't know if you've ever seen it that often, but I think you're seeing it more these days. And that's where I get heartened when I see guys being able to show that side of themselves, which is really important. And I think that, I don't know everything that this pastor said to go back to that for a moment, but I think it's a powerful message she was giving. Really, I just wouldn't want it to be a shaming message.

35:00And I don't know how he did it in a way because you can call guys out in a way that's shaming, call them in a way that's supportive. I think what he was trying to say and a little bit of it was shaming the way he preached. But I think what he was trying to say is you can't yourself ever feel like you're going to matter if you're absentee in making any of the loved ones around you feel like they matter. And if you're absent being a husband, if you're absent being the parent that your kids need, if you're absent being the spiritual head of the household, then what example are you setting by being an absentee person.

35:44And I know for me personally, that this was a difficult element when I became a parent because my father had a very difficult upbringing. My grandfather, who I never met, was physically abusive to my father. He was a very bad drunk and I think never showed my father how to parent. And so when I was growing up and it was much better for my younger brother, but for me, many of the years he was an absent parent and he used to travel 230, 240 days a year during most of my upbringing. And I realized as my son was one, two, three years old, I was starting to follow into some of his patterns. And it was very difficult for me to not only realize it, but to correct it because we tend to gravitate towards the examples, were given.

36:41And I didn't want to be that type of parent, but it was very difficult to change that path. I'm so happy I have because both my kids are so much better as a result of it. But I think that's what that pastor was trying to say. Okay. That's totally fair. I'm curious, how did you noticed that you were starting to follow in the footsteps of your father in a way that didn't feel right?

37:16I think part of it was just in the emotions and the way that my son would show disappointment toward me. And you could see it in subtle ways where he was pulling more and more away. I think if anyone isn't a parent and they have dogs, you probably see it in your pets when they come up to you and they want to be loved upon and you don't give them the attention that they want. And they put their head between their tail and away because you're not giving them the attention. I think kids give you the same type of subtle or not so subtle signals. And I just remember it hitting me and I had to be really mindful about what it became a completely different paradigm shift for me.

38:04If I want my son to grow up to be the man that I hope he becomes, then the person he's looking at to learn that from is me. So I need to be the example of what he sees and what I want him to become somewhere down the line. And then it also becomes a conversation with their mother about the roles that we're going to be playing. Meaning it can't always be the father who's the disciplinarian. Both of them have to play those roles or the child will never come to the person who's always doing the punishing and be vulnerable with them. So it took some give and take on all sides well i think it says something about you as a person and as a man that you were in touch enough with your emotions to be able to recognize that because i can imagine i'm pretty sure you can of how many guys they're so conditioned to be hard and harsh and like just buck up kid and just close their hearts to their children, in this case to their son, that it wouldn't penetrate them in a way that would lead toward an attitudinal and behavioral change.

39:19And so for you, that wasn't the case. So there was something either in your nature or something that allowed you to see that and to respond to that. Yeah, and I'm not ever going to say I was a perfect parent and I had a very demanding career. And there were times where that took too much precedence, especially as I got more senior. And I look back and there are definitely regrets I have, especially as my kids were getting older and I was getting more senior, that I'd like to have some do-overs. But I think that's why we're best positioned to try to help the people we once were. So that's a big part of my message that I try to give out is I just did a solo episode that we stopped building an architecture of success and start building an architecture of significance.

40:16And that really starts with the connections that are closest to your heart. I don't know if you've ever come across the work of Dr. Stephen Post, but he has this book called Pure Unlimited Love. And I happened to talk to him and then I talked to Mark Nepo and we both were talking about this topic of love. And they both gave the same definition of what unlimited love really is. And that is when you are about to close your eyes for the last time, who are the people that you want to look at that one last moment that you have? And that's really a moment of unlimited love. But I don't think we approach love in our lives with that intentionality, so to speak.

41:02No. But one thing, if I may note here, which I'm going to, is that when I acknowledged you about that, you saw that and you responded to that, you were very quick to say, well, it could have been better. And I was, I wasn't perfect. I wasn't like that. I don't know how much you actually took in that you did do a lot. And I'm saying that because I just see all the time with people. It's just a kind of much more of a focus on what you didn't do than what you did in a way. And I think that it's important to take in the good, right, in this case. And no one's perfect. People screw up. I have no belief in the word perfect at all.

41:48I think it's a terrible word and I think people hold themselves to absurd standards in a way and we all mess up. The thing that really is most important in terms of parenting is when you mess up as a parent, acknowledge it. Working as a psychologist for as many decades as I did, I can tell you that the thing that drives people really up the wall is when the parent never admitted they were wrong never apologized never said i yelled at you because actually i felt threatened at work and i was just totally stressed out and i took it out on you i'm really sorry about that but that's the kind of stuff that would people feel like that wasn't fair but they also think like it's because of me that you are suffering and they take it on the children taken on in a way that it's all their fault and i'm a believer in just taking responsibility for okay you screwed up i know you do that so i'm sure you're not in that camp that i'm talking about at all but it's also the importance of zix's knowledge and that yes there's goodness i was a much better father than my father was.

43:04Right. And take that in. Yes, because I do think this whole topic we're talking about, masculinity is a generational thing. And the gap is widening because as I guess masculinity starts to fade generationally, the gap keeps getting bigger and bigger. And so that's why I think in a lot of ways, it's becoming harder to close. And it's so interesting to me to see the disconnection that men are also having from pursuing education, purpose, and community. And what happens psychologically when men lose viable pathways to meaning? Great question. Nothing good. Nothing good. That's for sure. That's for sure.

43:57If you think about some of the prime drivers of life, purpose, meaning is way up there in there. And that's part of the problem with a lot of young guys is that they don't have a sense of purpose or meaning. What's the point? I mean, look out in the world and this is really the first time in American history, for sure, where the next generation has less prospects than the one before. and maybe the one before that. So it's always been, oh, well, my child and my children are going to have it easier than I had. Well, now it's actually quite not like that. But to have a college degree, there's no guarantee of anything.

44:39If you don't have a college degree as a guy, boy, the prospects are awful. I have a colleague who is researching men who don't have college degrees. And it's a pretty bleak situation. And reality is that women, most people are heterosexual. Women are looking for guys who are awkwardly mobile on some level who actually can create resources and it's not going to fall on them or they want support, understandably. and if the possibilities are not out there to be successful, it's a bad thing. This is part of what's leading to this malaise and this manosphere type stuff and the fentanyl overdoses and this death of despair and suicide and all that kind of stuff.

45:33It is a crisis of meaning, a crisis of purpose there. and so I don't know really what the way out is certainly there's got to be more kind of social support and I'm not thrilled with some of the attitudes in the United States around everyone's got to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and like we shouldn't have social support for no not at all but I do think that it's all I mean to speak about education there's just not a lot of enough focus on how do you create a life of meaning do you remember john when you were in elementary school middle school or high school when they're saying yeah let's have a course on how to create a sense of purpose and meaning in life yeah a a children's version of start with why right exactly and so what it's if I were to be able to pick do let's throw all the cards down the ground and pick up the deck in a way that's quite different than it is I'd make a lot of changes education is one of those major areas where we're not educating people well enough because if you think about education as preparation for living a full and good and decent life, we're not doing a good job.

47:03And certainly that's the case with guys who are just not oriented towards school. We're not getting, we go off of, I know we don't have time for this today, but there are so many problems with how, with schools and education. I think about it in terms of the etymology. there's a one one part of education so it's the edutare which is to put in from without it's important knowledge too and that's generally what we see in our educational systems i'm going to put this into you and somehow it's going to take residence and you're going to be fine with that but the other part is edusare which is to draw out from within we don't do that at all that's like completely absent from education and how do you help people bring out what is within them there's a paul the apostle was quoted and who knows if this is true or not but it was like if you bring forth what is within you what you bring forth will save you if you do not bring forth what is within you what you do not bring forth will destroy you and i think that's really part of powerful words yes okay some powerful words they are they are and i think about even the sense of mattering or purpose is like people have within them this creative impulse boys girl just it's it wants to create and we can look in the world and a lot of things incredible things have been created by human beings there's no question about that but i I think each individual has something that wants to come out and wants to flourish, wants to thrive, and needs the proper environment to nurture and help vitalize that which wants to come forth.

49:02And I don't think we're doing a very good job at creating those types of containers and context for that. And I think that we need to really have more groups, more education around how do you actually nurture and support your own creative impulses? Yeah, I think that's a good line of thinking, Daniel, because what I think about all the time is when men don't feel that they're needed and they don't know that they matter. They don't get that reciprocity felt back to them. Then they replace it with all kinds of things that are causing them to feel numb and apathetic and unseen. And I think that's one of the biggest contagions that we're dealing with in the world right now.

49:54A hundred percent. Exactly as you put it. Why do you think these, I want to talk about social media and the types of people that that men are gravitating towards. For these people who have lost that gap, why do these simplistic online identities that focus on hyper-dominance, grievance, contempt, feel so appealing to these men who are struggling? It's certain. It's certainty. This is what you do. This is how you do it. These guys come across as hyper-confident, never in doubt, never wrong. They know what's going on and they're going to tell you exactly what you need to do and just put on your big boy pants and just go out and do it and you'll be a confident, secure and successful man.

50:46On the one hand, guys want to be confident, secure and successful. That's appealing. But certainty is absurd. and we always have to deal with ambiguity and complexity and the challenges that you're not really sure what to do at a certain point to acknowledge you're not sure right it doesn't mean you're insecure or that you're weak it means that you're actually seeing that there are so many circumstances that are you're just not sure about so if you can actually start to learn and listen to yourself more and go inward and feel what feels right, a kind of intuition there that is something that is only generated from within.

51:37Obviously, you're going to be taking in outer resources and you want to talk to other people and listen, be open to feedback, right? Because that's part of how we populate our inner world is through the outer world. and we're dealing with that ongoing dynamic between inner and outer. These guys on the internet are just telling you just do this and you've got to have a time. And that's appealing. And wouldn't that be nice if it were that simple? Just do A, B, and C and everything will be fine. But it turns out that it's not. Or is it, though, for every complex problem, there's a solution that's simple, neat, and wrong.

52:20and that's part of the difficulty is that we're living in an increasingly complex world and people don't know what to do it's freaking scary but it's destabilizing and we're living in an increasingly destabilized and destabilizing world and simple solutions there are lovely ideas and just be tough be strong and go back to that there's something that's appealing about that and women want much more from men now than they used to and we can be provided protector procreator as many times in history and that worked that's the way it worked it was fine because that's where we were from our evolutionary history but that's not where we are right now yeah it's a very different world and it's a very confusing world i think that we need to really be much more focused on how to develop self-knowledge or selves knowledge as it were because there are different aspects of ourselves and be able to draw on that inner world and to be able to have groups of people who you can actually talk with and explore with and what do you think about that I see the world so differently now than I used to and not because I've come up with any great insights myself some perhaps but most of it's been to the learning from other people and being open you know to that i know that for you in your podcast and your work you're teaching people you're giving people opportunities to learn more about themselves and to really find a way to create a life of mattering because you've come to realize and i totally agree with you on this, that if people don't believe that they matter, nothing else matters.

54:14Well, I started to look at so many of what I'm now calling the symptoms that we're naming in society, the loneliness epidemic, people feeling burned out, people feeling hopeless, whatever it is, all of those, when I started to look at it, they all connect back to the feeling of antimatter. And that's why these things are happening. So that's why this is so important to me, because you've got to fix the human operating system to get this back in place, because we're systematically, from the time our kids enter school to how social media operates today, to how the workforce operates, we're systematically taking bits of mattering away from people over the course of years.

55:04And it's like dysthymia. You don't realize that you're depressed because it's happening so gradually that over time you reach a hockey stick where before you know it, you're experiencing severe depression. But it's happened over such a long period of time. Same thing with burnout, that when it finally hits you, you don't realize all the micro moments that have occurred that lead up to it. And that's exactly what I think is happening. the frog doesn't realize it's being boiled right yes exactly and so i agree with you completely and if you think about mattering you and i've talked a little bit about this and i know you spoke with my wife about it it's really the territory of significance significance and mattering are basically the same and when you think about early childhood development that little being comes into the world tabula rasa nothing's what yeah you've been around a little they don't they're like what i just can't like really orient and some and they have to learn somehow that they matter they matter enough that people care about them they're giving them their resources they're attending to them they when your kid comes up and grabs you by the don't bother me now i'm doing work right that's a statement that you don't matter what i'm doing is more important you're not important because underneath mattering significance is something you're important like you you deserve to exist and so many people like go through their entire lives and they feel like they i don't even deserve to be here and that's part of it and it's like how do you show people that they matter and part of my always concern is we just ignore other people just don't walk passing don't acknowledge don't like it's like it's a sad state of affairs but again it really has to do with you're part of the problem or you're part of the solution and to be someone who gets out there and says you know what i'm going to show other people that they matter right i'm going to be a kind of person who acknowledges other people and holds them to certain standards and tries to acknowledge that they at a minimum deserve to exist that They're not someone just to ignore or disregard or just shun or push off to the side.

57:32But it's about how do we expand to include other people rather than how do we contract to exclude them? Couldn't agree more. Oh, I want to, before we have to end, I want to talk about strength with heart a little bit, because I know this is near and dear to your heart. And I'm going to bring Mark Nepo up again, because in my interview with him, we were exploring his new book, The Fifth Season. But we probably spent a good 10 minutes of him talking about why he feels that the most critical thing we need to do and what life has told him is we need to live with an open heart, which I thought tied directly into a lot of your message.

58:16And I know that you really challenged the false binary that men must choose between strength and compassion. Why do you think that framing is so damaging? And what does real strength look like when it's fully integrated with heart? You leave the small questions for the last ones, right? Like we built up to this. That's great. Well, I'm going to get political for a second. probably with some level of temerity, but I can't help myself. So I think about politically how on the left side of things, which it seems like I'm on the right as I'm looking at this, it's like guys are being told that strength is bad, what's associated with power over and dominance.

59:07And so the best thing guys can be is not an asshole, you know, and be an ally to women and just be nice kind of thing, because it's seen as like the male side of power is always leads to a domination and just tamp it down. And I see this in more liberal corners there. I'm not a fan of that mentality. And then on the right side, it's just be strongly tough. There's nothing wrong with you. You're perfectly fine. And just, they're just shaming you on the left. And there is some shame on the left side. I'm not doubting that. But I don't think that's the answer either. There needs to be some integration of strength and heart where you're actually your backbone.

59:50It doesn't mean, by the way, that if you're heartful, you know, that somehow you are a pushover or that you always give people what they want or that you always are a lackey or in some kind of way. It means that you are you have a sense of direction, purpose. Right. I do leadership work. And so I don't think a good leader is someone who just rubber stamps what somebody else thinks and feels at all, not in the least. You have to have a sense of your North Star and where you want to go. And how do you lead in a way where you're supporting people to step up on the one hand and go for what feels right and be open to feedback.

1:00:39And so I think that if you're strong and heartful, you have a sense of direction, you have a sense of purpose, you have a sense of inner strength, and you're flexible enough to know that you can shift your opinions if the facts change. I think about Keene's, the economist who said, I believe in changing my opinion when the facts change. What do you do, sir? Because some people have this idea about strength is that you just hold your guns no matter what. The reality is that in a complex world, you don't have enough information all the time at all. And so something else comes in and you're flexible enough and you're fluid enough to be able to shift with that new information.

1:01:33There's an old saying that the bamboo is stronger than the oak, that the bamboo, it maintains its integrity, but it can move when circumstances change. I have a lot of oaks on my property. Oaks are lovely and everything, but they're tight. They don't move. And I think a lot of guys learn that strength is being immovable. but that's not I don't think that's true I think that the strongest people are people who can have the center they have a sense of their own core they have a belief in themselves and they're willing to shift when someone has given them a different way of orienting where they go you know what I was seeing it this way but that actually makes sense you know because they're actually in touch with a more emotional part of themselves.

1:02:30And I think that guys who are only tight, they're pushovers in a way. They're very reactive. They're ready to fight, or they're ready to hold the ground in a way. But what are they actually holding? They're really holding onto their egos. And the ego is very fragile. Self with a capital S is much stronger. And that is something that is not predicated on being right and always being in control, but actually is really seeing the bigger picture and is really a part of life and not trying to stand out as Mr. Dominance, you know, there, but actually is able to be fluid. And we see psychological flexibility, being able to be shifting.

1:03:14It doesn't mean not having a center. it doesn't mean being a pushover it means being open open the feedback and that's part of what creates relationship that kind of openness where okay i feel you and i can i'm going to shift based on what you're saying and how i'm experiencing you and so i know that my work with men when i look at the strength of heart i'm always going you can have your ground it's very important that you have your ground. And there are ways of really working with that, that allow you to become a more expanded and really a more powerful and clear person by being open. Daniel, I thought I would tell you after I put some thought to it, what strength means to me, because I think it coincides with many of the things that you just said.

1:04:06To me, strength without heart equals control and heart without strength equals collapse. So when I think about strength with heart, it equals regulated power and service of connection. It means boundaries and compassion, agency and vulnerability and leadership that stabilizes instead of trying to dominate. I have to get this. I really like the way you put that, John. Yeah, because I think what you said about open, strength with heart is the ability to stay open without becoming unprotected in many ways. What if there were nothing to defend? Yes, exactly. Which is not to say that there aren't things to defend.

1:04:52I'm not saying that having defenses is bad or wrong. It's appropriate at times. But I think a lot of times people go through lives always being defended. right and so there's this whole territory of safety versus threat friend or foe they're always in foe this is a foe it could be a potential foe this is a potential threat and so they're armored all the time and when you're armored all the time there's no flow there's really ultimately no connection now i'm going to be doing a whole nine month course on strength with heart for guys coming up at the end of the year and we're really focused on all the different we haven't nine different guide posts of strength with heart which are not things that you should do but they are things that if you live by these particular ways of orienting life tends to go better i see a lot of guys who are strong and heartful but i don't think on a larger cultural level it exists out there part of my own sense of mission is how do we actually change the paradigm of guys because the paradigms are really what's most important in terms of our maps and our lenses in terms of seeing and apprehending the world and we really need something new and different because we're at a point on this planet where i think we're either going to destroy ourselves or we're going to reorganize at a higher level of complexity the jury's out right now and hopefully with your work, John, and putting your work in the world and what I'm doing and a lot of other people are doing, Mark Nepo, and you can go on and on.

1:06:33There are a lot of people who see the need for this new paradigm that we need to birth this new paradigm in order to, at a minimum, survive, but certainly to thrive. Daniel, I have two last questions for you. For a man who's stayed with us this far in the conversation, listening, who recognizes himself in the strength at all costs model. What's one small non-threatening shift that can begin real change for him? Find someone and talk about how you feel strong in yourself and how you doubt yourself. Be more open. Take more risks. We tend to see courage. Courage is actually one of the strengths with heart guy posts tend to see courage as the willingness to run into a burning building, which it is courage.

1:07:27I'm not doubting that. But there's a courage that I don't think people tend to think about, which I call interpersonal courage, which is the willingness to be, to share beauty works and all about yourself as openly as possible with at least one other person, ideally in groups but certainly one other person it's part of why people go to therapy go into counseling or coaching in some way that they can disclose to others and it turns out that willingness to disclose to others is actually part of what leads people to develop more self-awareness and self-awareness is deeply connected to leadership and positive relationships it's actually one of our guideposts also is awareness or noticing.

1:08:15And so I would say, go out, take some interpersonal risks and have the belief in yourself that even if it doesn't go well, you're going to survive. It's not a survival issue for you, but you need to do this in order to bring your insides into the world. And the way you bring your insights into the world is through relationships with other people. So that's one thing I would say. And I think another is that the willingness to look into yourself and to recognize that you have strengths also. I think part of the reason why I was saying when I said to you earlier about, hey, that's cool that you essentially were to be a good father in that regard.

1:09:06And when you're saying, well, it wasn't perfect, that kind of thing. I wanted you, and this isn't like, this is commons. I'm not trying to call you out at all on this, is to say, yes, I do have strengths and I have done good things. I think a lot of times people are just so miserly with themselves around just acknowledging what's cool about that and what's good. So this is not about taking some self-inventory about all the horrible things and or anything like that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about being measured about this and being judicious and being able to say, these are positive things about me.

1:09:44These are not so positive things about me. What can I do to make a difference? And it turns out that one of the best things you can do is to be in relationships with other people in an open and transparent way, but finding the right people to do that with. and sometimes you trust someone and you're wrong but that's the courage part yeah and you go like how do i learn from this and how do i course correct and put that thing work but don't give up i've seen so many people i show i talked to somebody once and he chained me and i'm never going to do it again come on seriously you're going to give up that easily no don't do that don't do that stand up for yourself and stand in yourself and just go i'm going to keep pushing forward no matter what and not don't give up thank you for that daniel and i had this last question if you had the opportunity to redefine masculinity in a single sentence for the next generation of boys what would you want them to know about strength heart and who they're allowed to be i would want them to be more interested in being a whole and integrated person than to be seen as masculine i don't i it's interesting this word masculine is something i've john you can't imagine how much time i've spent thinking about this about toxic masculinity or healthy masculinity or masculinity and i hear it all the time and there's a part of me that goes i wish we didn't even have the word like i wish that weren't even that didn't even exist like guys didn't have to prove something about masculinity about their your mask whatever that means it's fine see part of the difficulty is that there are words that are considered to be or traits are masculine independent tough strong take note these are masculine traits Feminine traits are nurturing and kind and compassionate and being able to listen.

1:12:00And so that's part of the problem is that we call these traits masculine or feminine. And I don't think that's healthy. I think that really what I want to see is a world where women can have the same, all those traits. They can be aggressive. They can be confident. They can be things that are seen as masculine. Men can be nurturing and kind and compassionate. And to think and be in a way, their ways are seen as feminine. And so I would want to really deconstruct it from the beginning and question, is it you're trying to be masculine? I know from I feel male, whatever that means. I don't feel I'm a guy.

1:12:41I've always been very guy ish, whatever that means in a certain way. I like sports. I think women like sports, too. right? So I don't, I think that we limit ourselves by trying to fit ourselves into these little boxes that are called masculine or feminine or this or that. And so I want to, I'm in a different kind of world where people can be more expansive. So I may not have answered your question in a way that you were looking for, but that's how I would see it. Well, Daniel, I loved having you here today. For people who want to learn more about what we've been talking about, where are the best places for them to learn more about you and your work well you could write strengthwithheart.com and there's also for my leadership work there's rewireleadership.com and my email is daniel at rewireleadership.com and we will be having some different workshops coming out around this provides but i will tell you tom part of my newer inspiration is to really bring men and women together and have more meaningful conversations because i am heartened by all the work that's going on with boys and men these days i'm starting to feel like it's a crowded field in a way which is great but i'm what is a very uncrowded field is it's really bringing men and women together And I think we really need to be doing that more.

1:14:11Part of my kind of newer thinking, and I have a partner who is actually one of the founders of Men Living, which is a great organization for men. It's really about bringing men and women together to have these meaningful conversations, which I think we need to do. Now, the other thing is I'll send you information. if you do contact me at the free conference we have coming up June 12th, which is called Young Guys Thrive, which is going to be focused on how do we help young guys thrive and not just get by and really look at the challenges and the opportunities for young guys these days, because they're the future, right?

1:14:51And if we're going to have a paradigm shift, they're going to be part of it big time. So I'm hoping that in my old age, I can help inspire them to aspire to be better and to be strong and heartful men. As you are, John, and I want to just acknowledge you for the work you're doing and the heart and the strength that you show in doing this. Because I know it's not easy all the time to keep doing this and doing this work and to be putting out your good work in the world. Good for you. So thank you for being you and doing what you're doing in the world. Thank you so much, Daniel. It was such an honor to have you today.

1:15:33And I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead of you. Thank you. That brings us to the close of today's conversation with Daniel Ellenberg. If this episode stayed with you, it's likely because it touched something familiar, navigating a world that demands proof of strength while quietly wondering where your full humanity fits. Here are three reflections you might carry forward. First, strength without heart equals control. Heart without strength equals collapse. Real power lives in their integration, regulated, open, and in service of connection. Second, mattering is signaled through vulnerability.

1:16:07The people and cultures around us communicate significance through whose pain is allowed to be seen and whose is shamed into silence. And third, authenticity restores agency. Presence returns the moment we stop performing and start showing up. beauty, warts, doubts, and all in the relationships that matter most. Daniel said it plainly, if the only way that you can matter is to prove your masculinity, that's ultimately the most exposed you can be. Today is an invitation to lay that proof down. If this conversation stirred something in you, maybe a memory of a friend who never asked for help or a moment you held back your own pain, share this episode with one man in your life who might need to hear it, a brother, a son, a colleague, or even yourself.

1:16:49Sometimes the simplest act of mattering is saying, I see you and I'm here. To continue the work, visit theignitedlife.net for episode reflections. Watch the full conversations on YouTube at John R. Miles or PassionStruck Clips and explore intention-driven apparel at startmattering.com. In our next episode, we go even deeper into that instinct with philosopher Rebecca Neuberger Goldstein and her new book, The Mattering Instinct, exploring why the longing to matter may be as fundamental to being human as reason itself. We are so different by temperament, belief systems, value systems, our culture, our talents, our passions.

1:17:32And that individuality all goes into how we respond to this shared motivation that we have, deep motivation that shapes our lives. And we, none of us want to waste our life. We want to respond in the right way to this instinct. And we all make the distinction that there are right ways and wrong ways. And we want to, in appeasing this longing and answering the question, do I really matter, that motivates all this. Until then, remember, you matter, not because of what you prove, but because of who you already are. Your heart counts, your full self belongs, and the people who need your real presence most are waiting for exactly that.

1:18:17I'm John Miles and you've been PassionStruck.

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