Why Great Leaders Make People Feel Like They Matter | Adrian Gostick - EP 785

24:04So I'll put it to you, John. What percent of employees do you think agree with that statement, that their manager is above average at appreciating them? I would say 10 % or less. You're even more cynical. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 23%. So we have 23. So a quarter of people say, being generous, say my manager is actually above average. Doesn't mean they're great. They're just above average. And 67 % of managers. So you have this 44 % perception gap. You could drive a Mack truck through that, right? We're not as good as we think we are about this. And yet in Leading with Gratitude, we showed the data that says, look, get this right, not just good, but get it great.

24:43And you're going to see higher levels of employee engagement, customer satisfaction. It trickles down to all the things you're looking for in your lives. I have two things to say about Marshall Goldsmith. So the first is one of the times I interviewed him, we get done the whole interview. And he goes, John, I need you to stick around for about five to 10 minutes. And I'm like, well, what is this all about? And then he goes through and he says, you did a really great job interviewing, but there are a couple of things that you're doing that you don't realize you're doing that you need to stop doing.

25:16Yeah. And let me guess the end, but, or that's usually one he picks on people. It wasn't the end. It was the, but. So that was one. So after that, I went to improv class to get better at not doing it. but he also told me that I didn't challenge him as much as I should have. I took him too literal and he wanted me to push back on him more. And the other thing I have to say is I almost think his book, The Earned Life is better than what got you here. I love that book. It's a great book. That was actually the book that he couldn't write. We didn't gratitude with us because he was working on The Earned Life and he was under contract, but you're right.

25:59It's a great book. And it's one of his legacy books because Marshall is now, I think, 77. He's saying, look, this is what you want to leave as a leader. And coming back to Marshall challenging you, that's what great coaches do. And he's a great coach that's in our lives. If you don't have somebody on your team that challenges you like that, you don't have a mentor, you don't have a boss, somebody who will tell you the emperor has no clothes, go find them today. Yeah. Adrian, do you think the real issue with leaders is that they aren't expressing gratitude? Or do you think it's they're actually not seeing their people deeply enough?

26:41Yeah, I think there's two parts to gratitude. And I think you're right there. It's and I would say it's yes. And right. The improv idea. It's yes. We're not seeing the value that's being created around us as leaders. That is, and it's because we just get so busy. It's not, it's not we're bad people. Time is the number one problem that when managers say, look, I just don't have time for those who are leaders. Number one is time. And the point is you make time for things that are important. This really is. Secondly, sometimes we don't know what to say or what to do. So we end up doing nothing, which is worse than trying and even maybe missing.

27:18So yeah, the first part is this idea of not seeing the value because we're too busy. Or the second is this idea of not knowing really how to express our appreciation in a meaningful way. And most of the time, as that CHRO of the 70 ,000 person company, gee, I just wish my manager would say, thanks, but in a specific way, right? It's not, hey, John, good work. Boy, you sure do good work. You sure look busy around here. That's not meaningful to anybody. But hey, John, thanks for staying late last night, getting those invoices out. We're a small team and you took ownership. That's one of our core values around here.

27:57And you showed that in spades. Yeah, sorry if you had to miss something at home. Hopefully we won't ask you to do that much. But thank you for that ownership. Well, makes a huge difference. Those are just words. But you're seeing me. You're seeing the value that I am creating. That makes a big difference. I think what you're saying there between seeing someone and expressing it is so important. And one of my favorite leaders I ever worked with was this gentleman, Steve Szilagyi, who when I was at Lowe's, I met him when he was SVP over all the distribution centers, which had a big job of 30 ,000 people.

28:34And then he eventually became the EVP of supply chain, I just marveled at him. We would go into these distribution centers that are about a million and a half square foot. And it's not like he knew one person. He knew everything. He not only knew them, I would just watch and wonder. He'd start talking to them about their wives and their kids. He would talk to them about their sick parents or other things going on. And I can't tell you how many times I would see employees just burst into tears telling them their life stories. And what I really marveled at is when he had this group, they were trying to make extremely profound changes because his boss, they had brought in from Walmart and he was trying to revolutionize the whole supply chain system.

29:24And so Steve was asking these employees to do things that were way out of their comfort zones. And yet, because of how he treated them, they trusted him and then they would do it. I contrast that with another worker, another supervisor from Lowe's who spent most of her time in the office. She managed up, wanted nothing to do with walking the halls or meeting anyone, felt that was her subordinate's job. And in that case, when new initiatives came down, employees didn't want to do anything. And I just bring that up because I think those are two extreme situations that kind of illustrate what you're talking about.

30:05I love those. What great examples. What we've found in our research is that the managers who have the highest levels of trust with their teams, and as you say, people will take on extra work for them. They'll do whatever kind of change initiatives they want, spend about 75 % of their time not managing up, not even with their peers, but with their teams, helping remove obstacles, asking how things are going, etc. et cetera. And I have a good, I'm pretty good friends with a CEO in Canada and I won't mention his company, but they've got thousands of employees. And he called me up not long ago. He says, I have just discovered three magic words that have changed the way I lead.

30:44I was like, oh my gosh, what are these? And he goes, how are you? I said, I was like, come on. He says, no, let me tell you the story. He says, I'm walking through the halls and he'd been a pretty new CEO there. So he doesn't know everybody that well, but see, I saw somebody that I'd interacted with a few times and she was sitting by herself and seemed contemplative. And he says, I went over and I said, Mary, everything okay? Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah. So he keeps going because he's got to get to his next meeting. But he says, I just stopped. I went back and I said, how are you? And again, like you're saying, she just broke down and just said, she's my favorite aunt has just been diagnosed with cancer.

31:19And he went through this very tough situation. And he says, look, go home, go home, go figure, go be with your family. It's okay. It's a tough day. And anyway, she comes into my office later in the day and says, hey, just want to thank you for caring today. That meant a lot. I didn't end up going. We've been talking and we're going to meet up on the weekend. And she says, but I just wanted to thank you so much. And he says, who'd have thought? How are you? But meaning it. And she knew that he says she knew I meant it. I wanted to find out. I didn't care about being late to my meeting. I wanted to be there for one of my people.

31:50Well, again, that's it's simple. Right. But it's that idea of empathy we talked about earlier. It has to be there now. And the CEO discovers that. But I love your two kind of counter examples that people know when you care and don't. And you kind of can't fake your way through it. If you're not really that kind of person, maybe leadership is not the right avenue for you. There are other ways to make a buck in this world. If you're going to be a leader, care about your people. That's paramount today. I'm going to take the story you just told and give you another Steve Szilagyi story. I, when I met Steve would ask that question, how are you?

32:31And he would always say, and he had this huge smile. He's a big guy used to play division one football outstanding. And I was on a plane one time, next time. And I said, every time I ever ask you this question, it's either outstanding or best day ever. And he goes, I have to tell you something. He goes, when I was earlier in my career, people would ask me that question. And I would say what a lot of people do. I'm okay. I've had better days, this and that. And he goes, I realized when I was saying that, not only did that influence my mental state, but that was the energy I was putting out into the work environment.

33:12And he caught himself doing this and actually talked to a coach about it. And the coach said, when someone does that, put a power word out there. And he said, when I started doing that, it changed everything. It changed how people approached me. It changed how people felt after I interacted with them, changed my whole energy level. So I took what he told me, and that's what I have ended up doing ever since. And it is such a profound difference when you use a power word or an affirmation of how you want the day to be going instead of regardless of how you feel. There's an old Bernstein Bears book that teaching your kids how to say please and thank you.

33:55And the kids just started, oh, fine, please and thank you for everything. Right. And until finally, after a few days, it just became more natural. They were teasing at first, but then it just became. And that is so much human nature. You're right, is that we have to put out as much as we can. We have to be honest with people. We have to have our inner circle of people, we can say, yeah, I am actually having a tough day. And we all need that. We can't just fake our way through it. But for most of the world, yeah, putting out positivity will eventually come back to us and we'll start believing it ourselves.

34:28And Chester, my co-authors, he asked him, how you doing? He says, ah, if it was any better, it wouldn't be fair. And yet, I know he goes through hard things like all of us. By the time we've reached our age, We're all going through something. And so you have to understand that. But you're right. Put out positivity. It's that's bred upon the waters. It'll come back to you. Well, one thing I've realized is that poorly delivered recognition actually does more harm than good. And it led me to this question. Do you think there's a big difference between recognizing someone's output, meaning the results of their work versus recognizing who they are?

35:08That's a great question. It flashes back. I don't think I mentioned when you talked about Lowe's service awards, I mean, five, 10 years, people sometimes kind of say, oh, that's silly. But to me, that is the thank you for the thousand things you've done over the years that nobody ever said thank you for. That's, look, it's five years or it's 10 years or whatever it is. And saying, John, thank you so much for all that you have given that we've never said thank you for, right? And in a little way, that's maybe what you're asking too, because we're such an achievement-driven world. And what's the next thing you're going to do, John?

35:43Well, you do bring value, even what we might call the steady eddies. They're just showing up. They just get the work done every day. There's a lot of value to an organization in people who are rocks, who are just there for you. Even though they're not blowing the doors off with new initiatives or new ideas. is they come, they do their work, and that's important too. So I think you're right, is that we are recognizing who somebody is, their innate value that they bring, as well as there's also those above and beyond moments. And so what we do is we praise effort and we reward results. So praising effort, somebody is doing what we're expecting them to do.

36:25That's wonderful. Praise them for it. It's not a bad thing to tell them, thank you for what we may expect of you. But when somebody really does go above and beyond and they're stretching themselves and they're adding to the organization, then reward that moment. A lot of managers get that mixed up. They reward effort. So everybody gets the same, you know, rewards because I don't like to single people out. Or they praise results. Hey, we finally got the big result. We finally got the safety level we're looking for. We finally got the level of sales we're looking for. Way to go. Let's get back to work.

37:03Let's work twice as hard now. No, no. You pause. Praise effort. But when you have a result, take a moment. Celebrate it. Make people, whether it's individuals or team, feel good. And there's places for both. When you win the Super Bowl, the team celebrates, but there's still an MVP. There's places for individual recognition and team celebrations. They're different things. Don't get those mixed up because people need to know that they're singled out and teams need to celebrate together. When I was at Lowe's and I was trying to turn around this organization, obviously there's people that you see who need to remain on the bus and there's unfortunately seats that need to be replaced.

37:45Well, I replaced one of these seats with a gentleman from outside the company. And we think of recognition as giving something to someone. I think of recognition as Marshall having enough care for me that he was willing to spend a few moments to try to make me a better interviewer, a better person. And so in this case of this gentleman, he was one of our shift commanders in the Operation Command Center. And I remember we had given him the strategy. We'd given him a whole bunch of tools. And I was having a discussion with him one day that I bumped into him. He starts going, well, how do you want me to do this?

38:28How do you want me to do that? And I said to him, you're on a 24 by seven watch and you rotate between day shifts and night shifts. So there's no way given how many employees I have that I can be here to micromanage what you're doing. And so what I really need you to do and all the leaders to do is to take the vision that we're giving you and to use, you know, your leadership experience. And this was a gentleman who at the time was probably 50 to make the best course corrections that you think will change the needle. And I will never forget this, Adrian, because he looked at me and he said, in over two decades, you were the first leader who has ever given me permission to do what you just did.

39:16And it really blew me away. And as I started to talk to the other leaders who had been long-term employees, none of them were given that ability to really lead in the way that they thought would bring the best results. And I think it's something that's so prevalent in so many environments that so many leaders dictate the results instead of it being like a Green Beret set of troops who are 2000 miles away. And General McChrystal in no way can micromanage what they're doing, but he can give them the intent of what he wants them to accomplish. Do you see that as well? It's a great comment. Yeah, a wise man once said, teach people good principles that get out of their way, right?

40:04And then that's the idea where you're talking about here is that how many managers still micromanage versus giving people the parameters. I did some work with WD-40, which is a company. A lot of people don't know that, but they make tons of things. And if you haven't interviewed Gary Ridge, the ex-CEO, you should. And one of the things that WD-40 says, look, we don't have mistakes. We have learning opportunities. And as I interviewed some of the employees before I gave a presentation there, One of them said, look, we can make any mistake once here. If you keep making a mistake, well, then you're the problem.

40:36But we can make any mistake once, which I thought was really terrific. And that's kind of what you're saying is, look, you may make mistakes. It's OK. I'm setting the parameters. We're going to correct if that does happen. But go make mistakes. In fact, at WD-40 headquarters in San Diego, going up the stairs to the second level, there are all these plaques on the wall. And they're just different formulas. And WD-40, of course, stands for Water Displacement 40th Formula, right? 39 formulas failed. And Gary says, no, they weren't failures. We just learned each time that we got it right. And that's what we embrace around here is learning.

41:11And you're not going to be perfect. Don't worry about that. But do learn from your mistakes and teach us what have you learned. And Gary would say, look, when something bad happens around here, we get excited. It's like, hey, what can we learn instead of who can we point the finger at? And that's the kind of culture you created there, which is just terrific. I don't think people realize all the uses of WD-40. One that I didn't even realize until a handyman was helping me build an outside shower was, now that you've got all these nice shower fixtures out here, sinks, other thing, anything that's metal, every month spray it with WD-40 because it will stop it from rusting.

41:53Oh, yeah. It'll clean rust too off your grill or whatever. Yeah, it's amazing. Man, it is an amazing product. Well, we've talked a lot about gratitude. I want to talk about workplace anxiety because you've written another book on this. We started the conversation out by talking about fear. What's the correlation between cultures of fear and anxiety? Yeah, as we were writing, the book's called Anxiety at Work. And we started testing out the ideas before the book came out. and I would have people come up and they'd go, don't talk about anxiety. Don't use that word. We call it, do the positive, talk about resilience.

42:29And I said, okay, but this is what people are feeling. And as we mentioned earlier, even if you're not really working for a manager who's yelling and being micromanaging, all these things, there's a lot of fear in environments right now, period. No matter how caring and loving and wonderful your boss is, we are afraid. Look at the political environment. look at the economic environment we're in, look at the, we could go on and on. Every company I go into right now says, we're going through a lot of change, Adrian. Yeah, everybody is. It used to be you could go do something for the government and they would say, we're the only people who aren't changing.

43:05They're changing. Everybody is going through transformation and change right now. And you think of the place in your life where you have the least control. Well, it's work. You need the paycheck to pay your mortgage and your car loan. You need that paycheck. And yet there's not a lot of communication about what's happening. There's just a tremendous amount of uncertainty. So the point is, we have to, as much as we can, bring that anxiety level down. I was doing some work with Microsoft, one of their wonderful leaders there. As I interviewed his team, they said, Lutz is really good at making us feel like we're going into the dark together, right?

43:46We're holding hands. We're not going to get lost. Nobody is going to wander off into the darkness here. We're all working on this together. And that's the idea. How do you make people feel like, look, we don't have all the answers, but I'm going to tell you everything I know as soon as I do know it. I'm going to be clear with you. I'm going to talk about this, not just once a year, not a big strategy meeting. No, we're going to talk about this every week. Hey, something new. And we're going to brainstorm. And especially, you are going to be involved in decisions that affect your job. Now, you may not have the final say, but you're going to have a voice.

44:21And we're going to listen to each other. There's a tremendous difference in anxiety levels in a place where you work like, that's like, it gets you involved and gives you as much communication as they can. in a place where it's a need to know basis. And John, you're never going to really need to know anything. Just do what you need to do, right? When I think of anxiety, I think of it in the way that you're describing it. And in my first book, I wrote a chapter called The Anxiety Optimizer. And what I was focusing on more in that chapter was a flow state that oftentimes as a leader, one of our responsibilities is how do we help our organization get into the flow state?

45:01How do we reduce the conditions that allow them to have the optimum amount of anxiety? And I remember I was working on this chapter and I ended up talking to a race car driver because they're at Lowe's. There's a whole bunch of people that live right around it. And this gentleman was talking about his rookie year and he kept crashing out. And he says to me, at first I was trying to be too cautious and I would wreck. And then I was too aggressive. and then I would wreck. And then I realized that I had to be on the edge without going over the edge. And I'm like, that's it. How do you reach that point?

45:42So how do you think leaders can help their employees have environments like that where they can practice optimal anxiety? That's just a great question. And it's such a great image, too, of being on the edge without going over because we're all living right now in these uncertain worlds. And you can't take that away from people. You can't make the world this simple, easy to understand place anymore. We're living in VUCA, right? Volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. That's our borderline place right now. That's the baseline. And so with that, though, you don't have to amp things up. You don't have to create more pressure.

46:21I was in one big Fortune 500, big brand. And one of the employees told me, he says, working here, he says, they have this description that a gun is placed in your back when you start and the trigger is pulled. If you stop sprinting, the bullet will get you. He says, that's the environment here. We're all worried. And it did. It just burned people out. And tremendously talented people that I've met in many other companies who said, oh yeah, I used to work there. It was great. I learned a lot, but I could only handle a year or two years. There's no point in that. There's no point in creating excess anxiety like that.

46:58So what leaders can do, in fact, 70 % of the stress, or I think the stat is that 70 % of people say their manager is their number one cause of stress in the workplace. So not deadlines, not customers, it's their manager. Well, we don't need to be that. We can be their ally. We can help them. when bubbles are creative work, we can help shuffle things a little bit. We can, it's that, how are we can be there for people? We don't have to be a therapist, but we can bring anxiety levels down as much as we can. We can't eliminate it. But as you said, you can live right on that knife's edge a little bit of, okay, I'm okay.

47:38I know I'm busy. I know there's a lot, but I feel like I'm able to do this. We straddle between too aggressive and too relaxed. I know in Leading with Gratitude that you covered Charles Duhigg, who's one of my favorite authors. I've had Charles on the podcast a couple of times, but I want to go to his newer work, Super Communicator. When you think of super communicators, how much does that play into the anxiety that we feel in work and also a gratitude that we can give our employees? Because I think there's a huge link to his work and both your books. Well, the thing with communication, it's everybody knows it's important and nobody thinks they're as good as they should be.

48:25So I was doing a session with Michigan Medicine. It's the University of Michigan's medicine system. And so it was with surgeons. So I have 30 surgeons in the room. It's just kind of a more intimate setting. And we were working for half a day. And I'm doing lots of different exercises with them around building culture, leadership. And we had a section on communication, right? Where it falls apart. And I had them work together, brainstorming where it falls apart, what they can do, et cetera. And I went up to the organizer and I said, oh my gosh. Now they've been engaged all day. I said, but now they're leaning in, they're arguing with each other, they're talking.

48:59And he says, oh yeah, this is where surgeons are at their worst with communicating, right? Well, they're not alone. surgeons may be some of the worst at it sometimes, but we all can do better here. So one of the great leaders we interviewed for our book, All In, a woman named Doria Camaraza, who runs American Express's call centers. And it was like you described with your great leader, 3 ,000 people in her call center. We walked through the halls with her and people are, she knew everybody, every single person and their backstories. And it was remarkable. And yet she said, look, just last week, we had to let a couple of people go.

49:35But I went to their desks. I sat with them. I talked about why. It wasn't trickle down. She's two or three levels above these people. But she talked about how we're changing. And this is no longer a needed function. And she says, I just explained everything. I answered their questions. I was there for them in the toughest times. I was there in the good times for people. And that's what you have to do. One of the things that Doria does, so her and her team, so I don't know, she has eight or nine senior leaders on her executive team. And we sat in a conference room with them. We said, what are you doing to make people feel good about working here?

50:10Recognition and valuing them. We just started writing stuff on those 3M flip chart things. And we filled up pages and pages with all the things they were doing from a positive standpoint. Well, that's what communication is. It's five positives for every tough coaching moment, right? It's five positives to every negative. And they were doing that in spades. And because of that, their employee turnover was in the single digits, unheard of at a call center. They don't pay any higher wages than anybody else. And I think it's 10 years in a row now of J.D. Power & Associates top for customer satisfaction and for a call center.

50:46There's a lot of power in communication when we commit to being clear, open, transparent as we can be and making it very human. There's a lot that goes into that, of course, but those are the foundational elements. Adrian, as we wrap up, if a leader is listening to today's discussion and they've been unintentionally overlooking their people or maybe even family members, what's one shift that they can immediately do that would have an outsized impact? It's an interesting question because there are some low hanging fruit when we go into an organization. We say, look, just start doing these things.

51:22You're going to see a spike. And those simple things are make sure that people have a voice and listen to people. It's a no brainer, but we just get so busy. We don't do it. The second is make sure people understand your vision for the future. As one employee told me recently, if I know my manager is looking to the horizon, I can keep my head down and working. But if they're not, then I'm constantly looking up worrying. And so the idea is let people know this is our vision. This is how we're dealing with competitors, et cetera. And you don't do it once or twice a year. You do it every week. You're letting people know my hand is on the steering wheel here.

51:59I'm focusing on the future. Here's what I'm seeing. Keep talking to me. So give people a voice, give them a vision of the future. And when that aligns with your mission and your purpose, et cetera. And the last is we've talked a lot about is recognize their every step forward is a chance to develop people, to let them know how much you appreciate them. Every conversation is a chance for appreciation. So one thing we found in our data, in the best workplaces, there's a much higher preponderance of thank yous in a strategic manner. It's not just thank you. It's thank you for this. Simple things.

52:39Those are simple things that will help. Now, bringing it back to our home lives, the same. Are you listening to your loved ones? Are you giving them a voice? Are you telling them what's my vision for our family and where we can go and what our values are? And are you appreciating them at every step that you're going forward? That's one of the things that I'll hear after I've spoken or worked with somebody. They said, this is good at work, but boy, I'm using it at home. And that's really made a difference. I don't think people realize they're the chief design officer of the culture of their home.

53:13Yeah. Adrian, it was such an honor to have you today. You have a podcast. You have lots of books. Where's the best place for people to go to learn more about you and your work? Well, thanks. Adriangostic.com is where you can find me. And like you mentioned, pick up any of our books. We've got all in anxiety at work, leading with gratitude. There's lots out there to get started. But thank you so much, John, for having me on the show. It's been a really great discussion. You have challenged me. And I'll tell Marshall, you did a great job. Adrian, thank you so much. Hey, thank you. That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Adrian Gostick.

53:51There's one idea I'd like you to carry forward. It's this. People rarely do their best work because they're managed well. They do their best work because they feel valued. Throughout the Connection Crisis series, we've explored relationships, attachment, identity, belonging, and leadership. Each conversation has pointed us toward the same truth. Connection begins the moment another human being genuinely sees us. Whether at home, at work, or in our communities, recognition isn't simply a leadership skill, it's an act of humanity. When people know they matter, they bring more of themselves into the world.

54:24And that's where flourishing begins. Next week, we begin an entirely new chapter here on PassionStruck. Our new series is called Flourishing, How Humans Become Fully Alive. Over the coming weeks, we'll explore what it truly means not just to survive, but to awaken, grow, cultivate meaningful lives, contribute our gifts, and intentionally become the people we're capable of becoming. We'll be joined by remarkable guests, including Suzanne Giesemann, Nick Ortner, John Gordon, Dana Susskind, Leidy Klotz, Guy Kawasaki, Jess Ekstrom, Sean Brosnan, Ivan Young, and many others as we examine the science, psychology, and practices that help people flourish.

55:06We begin that journey with Whitney Otto. Whitney has spent years studying the science of flow, the remarkable state where our attention becomes fully absorbed, our sense of self-quiets, and we experience our highest levels of presence, creativity, and performance. Together, we'll explore why flourishing begins with presence, how distraction has become one of the greatest barriers to living fully alive, and what each of us can do to experience more moments of deep engagement in our everyday lives. If you've been with us throughout the connection crisis, I hope you'll continue this journey with us.

55:39Because understanding why we're disconnected is only the first step. Learning how to flourish is where transformation truly begins. You know, anything that we practice, we get better at. So if we are practicing criticizing ourselves, looking for that part of ourselves we don't like, wishing a part of ourselves were different or all of ourselves were different, we are practicing wanting to be different. And not liking ourselves and thinking we need to fix ourselves. And that practice can follow us into other areas of our lives, right? If today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who leads others or someone who simply needs a reminder that every person wants to know they matter.

56:24You can find today's companion workbook and additional resources at The Ignited Life. And until next time, remember this. Connection helps us heal, but flourishing is what allows us to become fully alive. I'm John Miles, and you've been PassionStruck.

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