Why Lasting Change Happens One Small Choice at a Time | Eric Zimmer - EP 772

28:27Another example I give or that I think about with this a lot is after writing a book, there were days that I would write and it was just brutally painful and nothing got accomplished at all. Or what got accomplished was just, I would look at it and be like, that is terrible writing. So my brain could say, see, you're not a writer. You knew you weren't good enough to do this. You have all these amazing writers on your show. You're not one of them. So that's one meaning. Another meaning I could give is, you just had an off day. Everybody has off days, right? You just keep putting in the work and something good is going to come out of it.

29:14Which of those is true? I don't know. But we can clearly see which one is useful, right? The one that says, oh, you just had an off day, keep working, is much more likely to lead me to a good book than the other. So yeah, I think this is imminently practical, and we deal with it all of the time in life. Yeah, and I can't tell you how many drafts of chapter I end up throwing out. Yeah. Boy, I don't know about you. I have not, the writing of this book brought up self-doubt I have not faced in decades. My just feeling like I can't do it. And luckily, the only thing I can say is the luck part for me is that I've talked to enough people who have written great books to know that everyone feels that way part of the time.

30:08even great writers that I five New York Times bestsellers I'll talk to them and they're like I just I don't think I can do it this time this book I'm just what I'm writing is just crap it's not any good and they're right that at the stage it's at it's not great but there are a lot of stages it goes through and then you get to the end and for me I'm like wow what I what I wrote I feel great about it. I feel like it's really good. But if you had pinged me any minute in that process and been like, how's the writing? I probably would have been like, not good enough. That was a big lesson for me too, just in recognizing the way something unfolds.

30:51And it goes back to what we talked about before with little by little. Any one day of writing was inconsequential, but added together over and over, suddenly, wow, here's this thing. There's this book, right? And that's little by little. I did that. I wrote the book 30 minutes at a time. I would sit down and say, okay, what I would sit down and set a timer, 30 minutes, right? And when the timer went off, I could reset the timer and just keep going, or I could stop and go do something else. That was the only way I could get myself to do it because it was so hard. It was so hard. And so it might be Monday and I'm like, okay, I have all Monday afternoon carved out for writing.

31:40But if I thought about sitting down and writing all afternoon, I would feel so overwhelmed. But I could usually talk myself into 30 minutes or sometimes talk myself into five minutes, which then turned into 30 minutes. yeah i've recently been trying to get a hold of angela duckworth basically to try to get her permission to include parts of her interview in this new book and it's been impossible to get in touch with her and where i'm going with this is her assistant said well she's in a writing dungeon and she's working on her next dungeon well if you ask my wife that's what she would say she hates when I work on books, because if I get in the flow state, which takes me a little bit to get into as I'm writing, but if I am there, man, I, hours can go by.

32:32And to me, it feels like it's five minutes. It is crazy. Well, when you were talking about these bestselling authors, one that you and I both know is Susan Cain, and you were lucky enough to even be on her podcast. When I think of her book, Quiet, which sold something like 20 million plus copies, having to follow that up with another book that then outperforms the first one. Or I think of James Clear, if he would ever write a second book, the amount of pressure that you would put on yourself to try to duplicate the past performance has got to be just immense. I'm sure. Yeah, I would imagine it is.

33:17I'm sure Susan's second book did not sell nearly as well as her first book. Her second book is outstanding. I actually prefer it as a book. I love it. And if I had to guess, there's no way it sold like Quiet did. I don't think it's possible. Quiet was on the New York Times bestseller list for most of my adult life, it feels like. Well, I think one thing she does exceptionally well is Susan does a ton of research before she does anything. And I think she internalizes a lot of it. So she is very good at picking out cultural moments where big things people are feeling that aren't being explored. And at least for me, quiet was a wake up call because I was this introvert in Fortune 500 companies in a very extrovert world.

34:14And I kept wondering when I got home why I was so freaking exhausted all the time. And her book kind of showed me that because you're putting on a complete mask, that's different than what your whole biology is. And I think that's what her books do is they're very introspective in helping people see a side of them they don't see. And same thing with our big feelings. Yes, 100%. Yep. Well, one of the things that I found when I was going through that process is I wasn't very kind to myself at times. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is our need to becoming a friend to ourself.

34:55Yeah. What does that actually look like from your perspective beyond just being nice to yourself? I think I say in the book that I think self-compassion, which is a term, Kristen Neff, I don't know if she coined it, but she's the one who's associated with it at a University of Texas researcher and professor. I think that self-compassion is the midpoint between self-acceptance and self-improvement. Right? We are all faced at any given time with this, I want to do better. I want what I do to be good. I'm striving. And yet, we also, I think it's important that we allow ourselves to be who we are.

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38:04And then thinking about what would it look like to be a friend to myself in these moments, and then practicing it about 20 ,000 times over the years. What I can say today for me is that I don't have a really harsh internal critic anymore. That doesn't mean that I can't be critical. But I do it in a different way. So I was perfectly capable of looking at what I was writing and going, that's not good. Without saying, that's not good, you idiot. What's wrong with you? Why can't you do better? And that I think that just happened from lots and lots of reps, right? I was a homeless heroin addict 30 years ago.

38:54And addicts carry an enormous amount of shame. It's part of what drives the whole addiction engine. So for me to go from that incredibly harsh inner voice that just said the worst things to myself, to a place that doesn't happen anymore feels like really significant to me. And so again, it's for me, it's about the tone in which I talk to myself. I use an example in the book of two students. You've got Bobby and you've got Sally and Bobby is in class one day and his teacher says, Bobby, what's four plus three? And Bobby says eight. And his teacher says, Bobby, you are an idiot. What is the matter with you?

39:40We've covered this 10 times. Are you never going to learn it? You might as well. I would rule out college because you're probably not going to get out of grade school. Bobby's going to struggle with math. Sally, on the other hand, has a different teacher. And that teacher says, Sally, what's four plus three? Sally says eight. The teacher does not go, good job, Sally. You did great. The teacher says, Sally, no, four plus three is seven. And here's why. Let me explain it to you. And you know what? Why don't you, if you want to stop by after class, I'll spend a couple extra minutes with you. And I know you can do this.

40:21Sally is going to learn math. It's not that we're not being, holding ourselves accountable to some standard. It's the way it's done. And so for me, besides the biggest upgrade I've ever given myself, besides burning my life to the ground with drugs was to learn this, to be kinder to myself. And it's also really important in change. Because when we are in that you idiot, you suck, you piece of shit, whatever it is, we're not learning. And that's what change is. Change is a learning process. We have to be able to go, okay, I was trying to do this or not do that and I did or didn't do it. And so why, what happened?

41:07What got in the way? What could I do different? What all that is how we learn to change. But when we're caught up in all the shame and internal recrimination, we just don't learn. So it's incredibly valuable and it takes a lot of reps. It just takes a lot of, oh, there I'm doing it again. What would I, okay, what would be a way to respond to myself like I would respond to a friend. And it takes a while for that to, you start to feel it, but it can be done. Eric, I didn't want to rehash your whole journey because we went through that in detail in the first episode. So that's something people can go back and listen to.

41:49But something I did want to talk about is I have two kids. My older one is about to turn 28 in May, which I'm dumbfounded about. It's amazing. My oldest one is going to turn 28 in May. Well, isn't it crazy how fast life goes? Oh, it's preposterous. Yeah. It's just, it doesn't make any sense. Well, he is very interested in a career in music, and he also has a degree in business. But I think a ton of kids this age, yours is probably telling you the same thing, feels is really out of whack right now because of all the digital disruptions that are hitting them. But I was hoping you might go back to your 28-year-old self, the one who somehow got into one of the first internet companies.

42:42And when you think about change and how you embrace that, or how you need to think about life, what advice do you give to kids that are this age? Or I should say adults that are this age. The first would be, I recognized this on a walk with my son about a year ago. And I was like, for the first time since he's been born, I feel like I have no idea exactly how to advise him moving forward. It's not that in the past I would have been like, I know what you should do. And here's what, but I would be like, I have a way of thinking through this. I have some general principles I might give. here's how I would think about it.

43:25And a year ago, I was like, F it if I know. What on earth is the world going to look like in three years for you? So what I would say to my 28-year-old self would not be anything like, here's what I think you should do to be relevant in the career world moving forward. I think I would talk more about life seems very uncertain right now, more uncertain than it has seemed. And the rate of change is really insane. So uncertainty, I believe now is a fundamental state of being human. It always has been, but it's more pronounced right now. So the question becomes, how do you live in uncertainty? because we do not like it as people.

44:14It is not enjoyable. And so how do we live in uncertainty? And so I think the message I would have given my 28-year-old self and I would give my son also is to a certain degree is how do you relax into being where you are? How do you learn to trust in your ability to navigate? How do you learn to say, okay, I will figure this out? I have the, I have this, I have skills, I have strengths, I have internal resolve, I will be okay, and I will figure it out. That's what I think it's worth cultivating. Now I look at my mother entered hospice recently. And I would say it's the same thing. How do you learn to be where right where you are what stage you're in life?

45:01We don't know, are you a week away? Are you a year away from passing? What do you do with that uncertainty? And how do you trust in mom? How do you trust in your ability to navigate this? So I think that would be what I would tell my 28 year old is it's okay. Settle in. We don't know what's coming. That's okay. You will figure it out. You don't have to solve it right now. And don't let uncertainty about the future steal all the joy and pleasure and enjoyment of what's here right now because that's what we do. And so I think I would give myself the same advice, right? I teach myself the same thing.

45:43I keep having to learn that, but it is one of the most powerful things for me is that I do. I just say to myself, you'll figure this out. You know how to navigate. I believe in you. I trust in your ability. Yes, we don't know what's coming. It feels insane, but I know who I am. Yeah, as you were talking about that, for some reason, my mind went to Garth Brooks and I'm thinking about the music video where the Challenger accident is playing in the background. And sometimes would you really want to know the future? Because you would live your life completely differently. Yeah, exactly. And the future is almost always some version of the Buddhist saying that I use all the time, the 10 ,000 joys and the 10 ,000 sorrows.

46:32Every life has those. Often both are happening at the same time. Right now I'm in the middle of a book launch. It's a great season. It's really fun. There's a lot of joy. My mom just entered hospice. One of my best friend's sons died a month ago in a skiing accident, like the 10 ,000 joys and the 10 ,000 sorrows. Another friend is battling cancer, right? It's all, it's both, it's here. And so how do we live in the midst of that in a way that is useful, skillful, and makes us just better able to enjoy our lives, but also better able to help other people?

47:14One of the things, Eric, I wanted to make sure we covered was the third part of your book. And you move into something that you call the gift of being. What does the gift of being mean for a listener in practical terms? Well, the reason that I end the book, there's a three-part structure, which is beginning, becoming, and being. And the reason I end up with back at the end with being is that idea we talked about earlier, not everything in life should be changed. And we don't want to be in a position of relating to life through only the lens of change. And that is me if I'm not careful. One of my best qualities is that I am like, we can make this better.

48:07We can improve this. We can fix this. We can solve this. It's part of who I am, and I'm really good at it. And like most things in our life, our greatest strength can often then turn around and become our greatest weakness. And so for me, the greatest weakness version of that is that I'm not content with where I'm at and how things are. And I want to be because I think that's really important. So we talk about this idea of presence as the way to do that. How can I move out of always future seeking into being more present? You gave one of the best examples of it that I know to do when you talked about the walking meditation, because our senses are the portal to now, right?

48:58That's how we become present. It's through our senses. And so by just going, what am I seeing? What am I feeling? What am I hearing? What can I touch? What can I taste? That brings us here. And practicing that is really important. I give an example in the book, and it's still true today. I will show up somewhere lovely. Let's say we're headed off to a beach vacation. And all day, I'm like, once I get to the beach, I just got to get to the beach. Once I get there, then I'll relax. And I get there, and we check into the hotel, and I step out and I look and it's just gorgeous. And I'm like, oh, that's so good.

49:41And then about five seconds later, my brain goes, I wonder how much a house would cost to buy so I could live here all the time. Or why do I live in Ohio when I could live by the beat? Gone. A whole ocean ruined. So then for me, it's the catching. Oh, there it is again. That mind. Come back. What am I seeing? What will the waves sound like? How does the air feel? Brings me back. And we can train this ability to be more present. When I am much more disciplined about my meditation and spiritual practice, I am just more present. The last three months, I've been focused on book launch to the exclusion of most other things.

50:25I've just been like, okay, this is a season. And for this season, this thing is going to be the number one focus, which means that other things get less focus. And I can tell you, it's harder for me to be present right now. Because there's so much going on, and I'm so focused on the book, and how's it going to do? And this is, I'm going to, I'm downshifting kind of as we speak, and I will go back to, all right, how do I be more in my life as it is? So yeah, that's why I end the book that way. because if I'm not careful, change is the only lens I see the world through. So I wanted to go into this state of being because one of the things, especially when I'm in the dungeon of writing a book and that stress is I tend to not be as present as I should be with those who are most meaningful in my life.

51:25And I wanted to go back to your renew formula. So I think so many of us are drifting away from connection more and more. So if you want to renew those connections in your life, how do you renew that state of being using your formula? What would be the steps? Sure. Well, first I would recognize it's normal to get off track. it's normal that we are get distracted by the world and the things in the world and our responsibilities and whatever else it is that distracts us and pulls us away from what we think is most important so i would recognize that then i would go back to the why why does that matter to me let me feel it again why is being present to my wife important to me what matters about that.

52:22And then I would, again, neutralize the emotional drama. I would get away from the, oh God, I keep screwing this up. I'm not a good husband. Whatever it is, whatever the stories we start to tell ourselves. Or another one for me with this is, why have I not been in better contact with my family over the last 10 years? I just get lost in the regret. So I try and neutralize that. Embrace the lesson. What's the lesson here? Oh, the lesson is that when I become singularly focused on one thing, everything else recedes and I don't even see it. So maybe how do I structure things so that I see them? So I'll give you an example in my own life.

53:08There are certain people in my life that I feel like I should be checking in with nearly daily because of the challenges they're facing. I will not remember to do that. So I have an alarm on my phone that goes off that reminds me to do it. Because it's not that I don't care about them. It's that I get going with what's happening. Nothing else exists to me. Except here's what I got to do now. Here's what I got to do next. This is what I got to do next. The rest of the world disappears. years. So I have to, I have to make, I have to have ways. So embracing the lesson from Renu is that I need to give myself, I have to structure it.

53:51Maybe if it's in, I'm in deep writing season, I'm going to make sure that two nights a week, my wife and I actually go out to dinner and I'm going to consciously not talk about the book, or I'm going to bring 10 questions that I pull off the internet. That would be good discussion points that generate conversation. And we're going to do that. Because if I don't, all I'm going to do is talk about the book, right? Because I'm obsessed. That's extract the lesson and then walk forward with action, right? Okay. You know what? Write this very second. I'm going to walk into the other room and I'm going to have a say to my wife, I'm you're so valuable to me.

54:26You're so important to me. Sometimes I know when I'm writing, I get a little distracted, but I want to make a commitment to you that to stay more connected. So that's how I would embrace that. Now, if we wanted to apply that to a different kind of presence, we would just do the same thing. What's the lesson? Oh, the lesson is that I am not present at all. So what I need to do is do two more five minute walks where I do my little senses practice. Or I need to, I have a concept in the book called still points, which are these little moments that happen throughout the day that are triggered by something.

55:03So we built an app to do this. It'll just go off randomly. You say, I want it to go off how many times a day? Five times a day. And I want it to display a message. So randomly, my phone goes off five times a day. When it does, I look down. It says, ground yourself in your senses. And I just pause for a second. And I go, all right, what are five things I can hear right now? And I listen. So now I'm doing that four or five times a day for 30 seconds. And I'm now able to be more present. So that was a great question, John, actually. That was a really good question. Like, how do we take that framework and put it in?

55:43Well, I think you did a great job explaining it. And Eric, I wanted to, as we get close to closing, we've talked a lot about many different topics from the book today. But when I think about the arc of what we went through, we talked about the importance of small actions. We talked about self-awareness, self-compassion, kind of forgiveness, renewal. Well, as someone goes through this whole framework that's in the book, what's the first real shift that a listener would notice if they started applying this in their life? Well, that's a difficult question because what people are going to come to the book that they're trying to change could be very different things.

56:30what I would hope that what if you're trying to change your behavior what I would hope one of the first shifts would be is that you are having success at whatever it is you're trying to do or you're having more success that would be one little shift that I would think but the shift that we're aiming at ultimately is one where we are able to make and keep promises to ourselves and we begin to trust ourselves more. Yeah. The book starts out, the first half of the book, I would say is a manual for how you change. Here are the mechanics of it. And then the second half of the book are more mindsets that help you change and that are also valuable just in the way you live, self-compassion, presence.

57:21And I think people are going to come into this book one of two ways. One might be, I have something very specific behaviorally that I want to change. And I talk about it in the book, I call them habits of behavior and habits of thought. And if it's a behavioral thing, then the shift is going to be you're starting to do the thing you want to do more or the thing you don't want to do less. I don't want to say completely because often it takes time to figure it out. And on the habits of thought, I think that's a slow one, right? That's the problem with that one. And it's why when I talk in the book, I say, little by little, I mean something specific.

58:02Low resistance actions done consistently in the same, or low resistance actions done consistently over time in the same direction. Low resistance just means you can get yourself to do it. Consistently over time is obvious, in the same direction is important because part of the problem that we face today, and you and I are part of the problem in a way, is that there is so much information on how to, what to change, right? I put out two episodes a week. I just keep, you just keep getting it. If we went on Instagram right now, if you have a feed like mine, you will come across 15 different things you should, you could change in the first hour.

58:43I should start cold plunging. I should start meditating. I need to be doing morning pages. I need to be time boxing. I need to be listing out my values. I need to be doing a gratitude list. It just goes on and on. And part, what happens for a lot of us is we're like, okay, great. I'm going to do that. And we start doing it and nothing big changes. And we go, that doesn't work. I did gratitude for three days and my life is not totally different. That isn't valuable. And so we give it up and we go, what's the next cold plunges? Let's do that. And so part of it, particularly with the way we think, is to recognize there's no shortcut there.

59:31Rewiring embedded thought patterns, the good news is it's absolutely possible. The bad news is it's going to take some time. So learning to stay with something long enough for it to have an effect is also part of the little by little idea because we have to be a little more patient. We have to start to really see through the marketing promises that we are inundated with that are like one I see a lot now is 20 years of therapy in one hour. And I'm like, what a crock of horseshit. That's not how it works. It's not that there are not more effective and less effective ways to do something. I'm not saying that.

1:00:18And it's not even that method might not be very effective. It might be, but it's not going to live up to that promise. And as long as we continue to be seduced by those promises, which we are, I am, I know it's all nonsense. And yet I see it and I'm like, maybe that is exactly what I need to do. Maybe if I just took L-theanine, I'd never be sad again. So I think that's, I think the shift is in that, that we start recognizing that change does take time and we do need to be patient with ourselves and with the process. I don't know if that was an answer, John, that was a lot of running all over the place, but hopefully there was something in there for people that was useful.

1:01:14Well, for the listener, what I really valued from Eric's book is you couple your own story. You bring in a lot of the science from people that you've interviewed on the podcast, which is something I love to do in my own books. And then I loved how you brought in things like the ancient farmer's story and the perspective chapter and other stories to highlight the points. So I found this to be a really profound book that that will help a ton of people. And I do love the framework that you put together because so many books I read will have a simple idea, but they don't really go into how do you put that idea really into practice in a big way.

1:01:58And I thought your book did a good job of talking about the premises and then showing you how to implement it. So it's not just a book that sits on the table, but it's something that people actually take out and apply again and again, which to me is what makes a long tail book, which I think this one will become. Thank you so much. Yeah. There are so many exercises at the end of the book. Normally you put them end of chapter exercises. They're there. And I'm like, nobody does those. I'm just going to put them in the back so you can read it as a book and then dive into the exercises you want. But there is a lot in there because I think like you, I'm a big believer that knowledge is great, but it's the application of the knowledge.

1:02:40It's the living of it that makes it actually matter. You probably know who Rory Vaden is. And I was talking to Rory one time, he goes, people don't pay for information. They pay for the application of the information. Yeah. And I think there's so much truth to that, but it's so uncanny to me how many people listen to my podcast and we put out a guide for every single episode that people could use as a workbook to put the episode into practice in their life. And we track these downloads and it, I am still waiting for the day that ratio starts to close. Yeah. I don't think it will in general. I think there is something to, I've thought about this a lot because I've been like, well, if you're not applying the ideas in my podcast, why, What's the value?

1:03:32And I do believe that we would all do well, and I'm the same way, to continue to shift the ratio of consumption to application or creation or even deep reflection, like from where we are to more of that. Because if I listen to a podcast and I spend five minutes after just writing down what was the one thing for me that mattered most and then spend another five minutes coming up with that and then just writing it down a little bit. Well, how does that apply in my life? Even that makes a big difference. But there's also something I think that people get out of shows like yours and like mine that is also really valuable, which is they feel encouraged.

1:04:24They feel often in my show, they feel comforted, they feel seen, they feel heard, and they have hope. And so that's valuable in and of itself, even if there's not a ton of application. And that's like walking into a beautiful banquet and only eating off the appetizer table. It's valuable. The appetizers are really valuable. and there's a lot more to be done there. And yeah, I always encourage, and it's why I always encourage people to try and do some of it. And it's why I do coaching work or I do these workshops or I have a community of practice where people can join, where we all together are going, this month is what we are doing.

1:05:06This month is all about values. And every week I'm going to give you a different short practice that you can do. Like, how do we do these things? Yeah, it's so important. Absolutely. Eric, always such an honor to have you on the show. Huge fan of you and your work. Where can people learn the most about you? Oneyoufeed.net. O-N-E-Y-O-U-F-E-E-D.net. You can find there. You can find the book. You can find the podcast. You can find how to book me for speaking or workshops. You can find the community. It's all there. Oneyoufeed.net. Awesome. Eric, thank you again for joining us. and congrats again on this incredible new book.

1:05:48Thank you so much, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. You're one of the best at this, so thank you. I was really happy to get to do this. That brings us to the end of today's conversation. And honestly, what stayed with me most is this. So many people believe transformation should be dramatic. They think change arrives through some singular breakthrough moment that permanently alters everything overnight. But real change is usually much quieter than that. It happens through repeated choices, repeated awareness, repeated moments of returning. Returning after setbacks, returning after self-doubt, returning after life inevitably knocks us off course.

1:06:26And one of the things I appreciated most about Eric's perspective is that he removes shame from the process of growth. He reminds us that falling off track is not failure. It's part of being human. And what matters is learning how to return without turning every setback into evidence that we are incapable of change. I also think this conversation speaks to something much larger happening culturally right now. Many people are exhausted from trying to completely reinvent themselves every few months. New systems, new routines, new identities, new forms of optimization. But sustainable transformation is often less about becoming someone entirely different and more about learning how to consistently move in the direction of the person you already want to become.

1:07:08Little by little, choice by choice, moment by moment. And maybe that's the deeper invitation inside this conversation, to build enough self-trust to keep returning to what matters. And next up in our Forged in Adversity series, I'll be joined by Walter Green for a powerful conversation about legacy service and how adversity can ripple outward into the lives we impact. Because sometimes the deepest meaning we create from suffering comes through with what we choose to give forward. What if the whole world woke up this morning and said, I am going to reach out to at least one person or all those that are really important to me and be very specific with them.

1:07:50I just want you to know, John, how much you matter to me. When you did that, and that suggestion and that support was a really tough time in my life, and I'll never forget what impact it had on my life, and you're thinking to yourself, I don't remember it. You can't believe how many moments of mattering in people's lives the people who provided it had no knowledge of it. If today's episode resonated with you, share it with someone who may need it. leave a five-star rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and explore more at theignitedlife.net. Until next time, remember, transformation rarely happens all at once.

1:08:32More often, it happens through the small choices that quietly shape who we become. I'm John Miles, and you've been PassionStruck.