Are You Over-Managing Your Team?

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1:33There's no safe like SimpliSafe. From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show that solves entrepreneurs' toughest problems. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and each week I take a problem that you're probably dealing with and get tactical solutions from people who have been there and solved that. So, let's get solving. So, here's a little behind the scenes on problem solvers. Many episodes begin with an email. Someone reaches out, they say, I'd love to be on your show, or I'd love my client to be on your show, and then I ask them for a list of problems that we might talk about solving.

2:09And if I like one, then we basically do the episode. And that is what happened with my next guest as well. But I am not sure that I have ever perked up as much as I did when I saw this problem being proposed. Because the problem is this. It's a leader who needs to be involved. I love the use of the word involved there. You know, got to be looped in on everything. Need to weigh in on everything. Must be involved. Can't not be involved. And I cannot stand this kind of leadership. Because, well, as I said to my guest today, I am excited to talk to you about this because the I need to be involved leader is perhaps my least favorite kind of leader to work for.

2:55And I have worked with or for many I need to be involved leaders. And it's funny, I think that they could be separated into two groups. There is I need to be involved. And then there is, I don't need to be involved. You take care of it. I trust you. But then secretly, actually, they think that they need to be involved and they constantly are. That would be the passive aggressive leader. That, by the way, is today's guest, the woman diagnosing the problem of the leader who must be involved. Her name is Muriel Wilkins. So I'm Muriel Wilkins, of course, and I am an executive coach. I've been an executive coach for, gosh, a little over 20 years.

3:39Never imagined that would be what my career would end up being, but it is. And I work primarily with C-suite level leaders. I also have a podcast called coaching real leaders and have written a couple of books, the latest one called Leadership Unblocked. And okay, we'll get back to the involved leader in just a moment, because today we are dissecting that problem and talking about how to not be an overly involved leader and how to also manage an overly involved leader. But first, you should know where this idea comes from, because when Muriel talks about this kind of leader, she's really talking about it in the context of many common traits that hold leaders back from being the impactful leaders they want to be.

4:23I have worked with leaders for so long and very successful people by their own right. They're not low performers. They're not folks who are, you know, on their way out, quite the opposite. And all of them have, including myself, have gotten blocked at some point. And even when they put forward some actions that they could take, at some point, they would sort of revisit some of the things that were really having a negative impact, not just on themselves or on their organization. So I became curious as to why that is. And what I found was that there were, if you went under the hood, there were beliefs that were really causing the actions that were then consequently holding them back.

5:05And so my whole coaching then became around, let's not just work on the action level, But let's also look at what are the narratives, the stories, the assumptions that you're making, and whether they are helping you lead as effectively as you can in the context that you're in. And we're going to dig into one of those very particularly here. But before we do, can you give me just like a broad overview of what we're talking about when we're talking about these beliefs? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we talk about beliefs, and look, I didn't, you know, this whole notion of beliefs is not something that I created.

5:38It's a vernacular that's used a lot in the mainstream. And that was the other part that kind of got me to dig into this. I find that it's talked a lot about in parenting and relationships and just in general life, but not as much in the workplace. And yet we come into the workplace as human beings with our own set of assumptions that then drive the way that we behave. And so when we talk about beliefs, it really is the story that you're telling yourself or the interpretation that you have about yourself, other people, or the context, which then drives you to, again, act or behave in a particular way.

6:12And it's not to say that there are beliefs that are bad. It's more the question of, is that assumption that you're making at that particular point in time actually helping you be as effective as you can be in your leadership role? So I really work a lot of times with my clients because they'll say, oh, my God, I can't believe I thought that, you know, it's bad. I'm like, it's not bad. it's just not helping you right now. The only reason that you actually believe it is because for a very, very long time, it probably did help you. It's just not right now. And these beliefs, I have a list of them in front of me.

6:44I don't know if they're all encompassing, but I'll read minus the one that we're going to talk about. Yeah. But I need it done now. I know I'm right. I can't make a mistake. If I can do it, so can you. I can't say no. I don't belong here. Yes. These all feel somewhere between learned behaviors, things that people found to make them feel better. I'm trying to like, like on the fly here, come up with a common thread of like where these kinds of things come from. Where do these things come from? They're learned. And what I try to do here, Jason, is really sort of pull apart the difference between a belief and a behavior, because there's so many times people say, well, that's just how I am.

7:34Well, actually, no, that's how you learn to be. And you learn to be that because at some point, right, there was a belief that was created. So for example, the I can't say no belief, by the way, the origin is different for everyone. So what I try not to do is generalize and say, this is where it came from, and therefore it came there for you. But for me, you know, I have a bit of the I can't say no belief. And that definitely came from growing up in a family where it was, if everybody else isn't doing well, you're not doing well, and you do for others, that's the right thing to do. And fundamentally, you know, you were valued and worthy.

8:12I was valued and worthy the more I did for others and didn't say no. When I said no, I was like, oh, so what did I learn to do? Oh, I want to feel valued and worthy even as an adult. So what do I do? I say yes, right? But that is a, it's malleable, right? It's a belief is again, what you tell yourself. But again, you have to sort of kick the tire and say, is what I'm telling myself actually helpful at this time? And look, these seven that I list are not the only ones. It's not a completely exhaustive list. But what I found when I looked across over 300 of my clients, these were the top seven that surfaced as most common that got in their way.

8:52This is all the premise of her new book called Leadership Unblocked. And so I said to Muriel, well, how are we to understand this particular issue of the involved leader? It is a complicated idea because, you know, aren't leaders supposed to be involved? Isn't it bad for a leader to not be involved? And she said, I think the question is at what level do they need to be involved? And therein lies a distinction worth unpacking. How to find the right level of involvement for you and for any leader you work with, so that you can have the most impact, but also not stifle everybody else. And that is what we are going to solve for.

9:35All coming up on Problem Solvers right after the break. All right, I'm back with Muriel Wilkins, executive coach and author of the book Leadership Unblocked. And just before the break, I had asked her, how do we think about the role of a leader who is supposed to be involved but can't be too involved? And let's pick the conversation up with the answer that she gave. This is where it goes back to kind of the danger of holding on to a particular mantra, if you will, and not adjusting it and adapting it as your leadership requirements change. And so what I often find is that this, I need to be involved, which, by the way, I haven't had any client who sort of just shows up and says, oh, I have a belief that I need to be involved and therefore this is what happened.

10:22It's after we unpack it, they're like, oh, yeah, I see how I'm applying this across the board. But here's the thing, like, and by the way, we'll confess, this was one of my main ones that I struggled with, and probably was my superpower for a long time, but then came to really get me in a bit of trouble. And so very conscious of it. But the fact of the matter is, particularly early on in our career, being involved 150 % in all of the details, and having all of our I's dotted and all of the T's crossed. We need to, like, that's our path to success. What kind of boss does not want a direct report or somebody who is that detail oriented, that then it doesn't sort of bubble up to create a problem for themselves.

11:09So we are rewarded for being that way, not only as students, you know, coming up in the educational system, but then particularly early on in our careers. The issue is when you have to start scaling as a leader, i.e., you need to start managing through others and getting work done through others, or your scope of responsibility has quadrupled, quintupled in size, and it's impossible, physically impossible, to be involved in every detail. And therefore, you are starting to undermine your effectiveness because you're not paying attention to where you add value. So the origin of it can differ by people, but somewhere along the way, you were rewarded for having that mantra, and therefore attached to it, and never let it go.

12:01And it's still in the driver's seat for you, which is why it's causing issues. And I'm going to hypothesize something, tell me if I'm right, which is that as a leader holds on to this idea that they must be involved and can't recognize maybe the moment in which they shouldn't, which I'd like to hear you articulate because there has to be some moment, some shift in involvement. involvement, that what they end up doing is training everyone they work for as they scale an organization that they have to be involved, they will be involved. And the more in which the leader is involved, the less invested everyone else is because they don't feel ownership over the final decision.

12:49I see this kind of thing happen all the time where the team shifts their energy from, I'm going to make this the best that it can be to, I need to do whatever will get a yes from the leader who is involved. And those drive two totally different outcomes. You got it. You got it. I mean, at a high level, sort of big picture standpoint, right? What it undermines is a leader's ability to actually build capacity within an organization, which from my standpoint, if you are leading, that is one of your primary responsibilities is to build capacity at a very tactical level, because I'm a simple type of person, and I like to bring it in those terms, is it creates, you know, what's known as learned helplessness, right?

13:33Like, it creates team members and staff where they're like, why should I do it? Quite frankly, you know, the boss is going to do it, why should I make the decision? Because the boss is going to weigh in and be involved in the decision. And really, as you said, does not create a sense of ownership. Now, what's interesting about that, Jason, is that when I work with individuals where underlying it, they do have this mantra, their biggest frustration is that their people aren't taking ownership. And they are so quick to like point the finger at everybody else. And I'm like, those other people are not sitting in front of me.

14:12You're sitting in front of me. So let's talk Talk about how you've co-created this situation. What part can you own? And the part that you can own is this is where you've been leading from. Can you draw a picture? Maybe think of a leader behavior of someone that you've worked with that really exemplifies this kind of thinking? Oh, yeah. I mean, this is there's a very simple one, right? I want to be CC'd on everything. And it's like, why? Right? Yeah. Just because you just never know. I may have to be involved. Like, I don't even know if I'm going to be involved or need to be involved. But I just need to know because if not, I can't rest.

14:55Right. So that is a very simple one. I need to be CC'd on everything. I want to be in on the meeting. I want to be at every meeting, even if it's not my meeting. Because God forbid, I might have to weigh in. Right. And I probably will. Right. I need to be involved. There is no boundary around who's responsible, who's accountable. I only need to be consulted. I need to be informed. What they take on is, no, I take the responsible and accountable role all the time. There is no just FYI. And so at a tactical level, you can look at this person's calendar. And that is something that I often do with my clients who have this.

15:36It's like, let's take a look at your calendar, right? Like, where are you engaged? And where they are engaged when they look at it is there's so much that they're engaged in that does not have a direct line to where they add the most value and what is the highest and best use of their time. And so it becomes a where you're putting your energy, and where you're putting your focus is not aligned with the value that folks are expecting of you, and your responsibility as a leader, because you are trying to spend so much time in these, you know, activities that are important, but aren't necessarily where you're needed.

16:12And this becomes such a crazy death spiral because as you just described, going through the calendar and looking at where is somebody actually most impactful and not, I can think of plenty of instances where I've talked to a leader or worked, frankly, with a leader who would tell me that they're on these calls or they're involved in these things because the person who's supposed to be leading it isn't that effective. And right, but then to rewind two minutes to what you just said, possibly the reason that person isn't effective is because you aren't giving them the space to be effective. And you've set the expectation that they don't really fully own this anyway, you do.

16:58And so of course, they're not effective. And then this becomes this very self fulfilling prophecy that locks everybody into a giant problem. Yeah. And I think, Jason, to that example, that leader is sort of absolving themselves from actually doing the harder work, right? Which is the question of, oh, I have somebody on my team who may not be effective. Therefore, what should I do about that? So they lean on the thing that's most comfortable for them, which is, well, I'll just come in and do it myself or I'll fix it myself or I'll be involved to cover actually what the bigger issue is that you have somebody who's not effective.

17:35Why they're not effective, we don't know. One of the reasons could be they haven't even had a chance to have a test run because you're there. Right. The other is they might not have the skill. Right. So the real question is, then how do you build the skill in that individual? And then the third is you might not have the right people on your team. And those are the harder pieces that a lot of managers and leaders don't want to grapple with because it's messier to them. And so they end up leaning more on what has worked for them in the past, which is they go neck in and try to hold it all until they no longer can't, which gets to your point.

18:13at some point, there's a driver for something shifting. And sometimes that is, again, you just hit a wall, a sheer physical capacity wall, you literally cannot do everything that you're involved in. Or you get feedback that you're too involved and makes your engagement scores go down, or you're not doing the part of your job that's critical. That's the story that I share in the book around the individual who's not doing the strategic work, and then therefore is not meeting expectations around either what he wanted to do, or what others are expecting of them. So there, there's different drivers for one to sort of come face to face with it.

18:50But the origin of being rewarded for it and not understanding that that's not where you're going to get your juice at this point in time is very common. Yeah, this is a good transition now to solutions. We diagnosed the problem. And now let's talk about what to do about it. So as you had just described, sitting down with a leader and looking at the calendar and saying, well, let's look at where you're spending your time and how. But what else can somebody do to recognize in themselves, perhaps having heard us describe this kind of leader or seeing this in themselves to recalibrate? Yeah. So, I mean, I think the first before we even get into actions is they have to accept that this is part of the issue, right?

19:37And they have to own it. Because if they don't, they'll end up right back where they are. So owning it and accepting it doesn't mean resignation, like, oh, my God, okay, well, this is just me. Therefore, I'm just going to continue doing this or blaming oneself is just being able to say, okay, like, I understand that's the way that I've been thinking. And I also understand the implications of it. And I want different implications, and therefore I'm willing to make that shift. That's all it is, right? And so then we can get to some of the tactical, how do you make that shift? I think a big one for when you have this mantra of I need to be involved, it really is a question of what is the level of engagement that you need to have, okay?

20:18And so one of the tools that has worked really well with folks that I work with is let's envision or let's plot out, here's your level of engagement currently? Where are the areas that you're spending your time, you're giving your energy, et cetera? Where would you like to be spending your time? What is the level of engagement, not only that you would like, but that is required of you, that is needed given where your division, your team, your organization needs to go? Let's do a point by point comparison. And then the question becomes, if you want to shift to that future vision, if you want to shift to the highest, best use of your time, what would you need to believe about your involvement to get there?

21:00So they curate their own belief. I am not there, nor should anybody say, well, this is what you need to believe now, right? Because then again, they're not owning it. But what it does is it gives them a range of saying, yeah, at times I need to be involved, but in this situation, maybe the belief that's gonna guide me is, I need to be involved where I add the most strategic value. And that's gonna be my filter for then how I manage my calendar. And so does that mean creating almost a map of where you are most useful and where you are not? Yeah, yeah. I mean, literally, I've done it with clients.

21:36We go on a whiteboard, take a piece of paper, just put it down two sides. Where's your current impact, right? Where do you spend the most time and energy? Flip side, where do you think it should be? Sometimes that's informed by feedback from others. And that is a good also tool to use. Ask your team, where do you think I need to be involved? What is the level of engagement that you think I need to have? Sometimes they'll be like, yeah, you're a little too in the weeds here. Back off. That didn't happen to me with my team, but it happened with my son once where he was like, mommy, back off. This is mine.

22:09You need to back away. And I was like, got it. Like I'm too in the weeds. And I understood where it came from. It came from a place of fear, but it wasn't building the capacity and ownership that he needed to handle that situation. You can do the same with your team, get input from others to then calibrate, okay, we're given again, what the business needs, what the organization needs. This is not about preference. It's given where we are going, what is the highest and best use of my time? Where do I truly add value? And let me make that, you know, at least 60, 70 % of my agenda, because I'm realistic that there are some things you're going to need to be involved with that might not necessarily be highest and best value, but are required.

22:49So that side by side comparison can start giving you a roadmap. And then again, it would be all right, well, then what is the assumption that I need to make? What is the belief that I need to hold in order to get there? It feels like there's also some kind of trust building that needs to take place. Because if we go back to why is a leader so involved? And the answer is in part because they feel like the people on their team can't handle it the way that they do, then this isn't just about recognizing where they have the most value. It has to be recognizing where other people have the most value.

23:26And to do that, you have to trust that the people on your team who you may have hired yourself actually are bringing the value, which means that you need to see it and you need to give them the chance to prove it. Talk to me about how to approach that. Yeah, absolutely. So I think there is the question is, do you trust your people enough to be able to then move forward? Right. And if the answer is yes or no, because I can't presume that that is the case, what you just brought up. But we can ask the question, is the level of trust that you have for your team or for your team members enough for you to be able to let go of some of these activities?

24:05If the answer is no, then then there's a follow up question, which is why not? which leads us back to earlier in our conversation if the why not is because well they don't have the skill to do it okay well then let's action step against that if it's i don't have the right people let's action step about that against that but if it really is just because i just don't it's my own issue with trust now we've got to turn the lens back on you you know what is it What is it that is leading you to not trust somebody who actually is capable? Might it be that you are still trying to prove that you're good at something by doing their job better than they are when that's actually not your role?

24:47And that's when it can be like a little like truth telling, like, let me be honest with myself. That's where I feel comfortable. Right. Those are the things I enjoy doing. And so I sort of overstep on them. So this trust question can certainly be there. But I actually would encourage people to really dig in why the trust might not exist to really then be able to action item around it. Muriel, finally, I want to circle back to something that we touched on briefly earlier, and that you addressed in a way, but I just would like to hear you unpack it a little bit more. And that is that there's a moment in which a leader goes from needing to be involved in everything at a very early stage, to it is physically not possible to do that anymore, you've reached capacity.

25:32and I wonder what your thought is on when a leader should recognize when their role should shift because the way in which you describe it there which is very true is just like at some point there just isn't enough time in the day but I assume that the leader isn't supposed to get to the point where they're fully maxed out to make the switch there should probably be something of a more gradual transition yeah how can leaders be thinking about that yeah I mean ideally yes You don't wait till there's external implications. Everyone else can see it or you're feeling it physically and all that. Look, I think, Jason, what you're talking about here is that the root of what actually having presence is, is that you are present enough to know that or recognize or notice, even though if you don't know what to do about it, But to notice that there is dissonance between what you're thinking and the way you're behaving with what's needed in the moment.

26:34And that is the key. Because if you don't notice that, then you're going to keep on doing what you've been doing. You're going to keep on thinking what you've been thinking. So that moment, as a coach, I'm often able to mirror that to clients. I'm often able to say, okay, well, do you feel any dissonance now? And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I feel it, right? Like, yes, there's a gap there. My whole goal in coaching people and even in writing this book is for people to be able to do that for themselves. They don't need me or a coach or anybody else to do it. Get that level of awareness yourself to be able to say, yeah, something feels off, right?

27:10I'm not getting the results that I want. And that is enough to be able to say, let me just stop for a few minutes and ask myself a couple of questions. What is the story that I'm telling myself in the moment? Are the behaviors that I'm having or the actions that I'm taking actually aligned with the outcome that I want? If they're not, then I need to peel back the onion and start from the get go and course correct. And that's all it is. Muriel, the book is called Leadership Unblocked. How can people get in touch with you? Absolutely. So you can always find me at murielwilkins.com. I'm on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins, LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins.