Become the Leader Your Team Needs, with Jon Taffer

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1:33There's no safe like SimpliSafe. From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show in which entrepreneurs do what entrepreneurs do best, solve unexpected problems in their business. We were completely wrong. And I'm just like, it's not selling. It was like, we have to start from scratch. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

2:21it would just feel uncomfortable. I'd feel bad about it. So how does someone get themselves to the point where they're able to do that? I had a really interesting conversation about this recently, and I promise this is business related. There is a wonderful business lesson in this, and it's not just don't yell at people. And that conversation was with a guy named John Taffer. Maybe you know the name. You've probably seen his show. He has a show on TV called Bar Rescue, in which John goes into restaurants and bars that are struggling and then helps their owners fix them. And one of the ways that he does that is by yelling a lot like this.

3:06You then hold it in your hands, look at it and say to yourself, this isn't right. Correct. And then you brought it out anyway. That's some good yelling. And in fact, towards the end of this segment, there's even throwing of food. That is unacceptable. All right. I've known John Taffer for years in person. He is not a yelling, screaming, crazy person. That is just on TV. And he told me this super, super interesting thing recently. I've never thrown food at anybody in my personal life or embarrassed a man in front of his wife or vice versa or any of those. So first couple of times I did that on TV was horrifying, scary.

3:48but I didn't do it for the camera. I did it because I was in a jam. I couldn't save this guy in four days if he didn't freaking listen to me. Because as a consultant, John could spend a month or more with a company trying to turn it around. But when he's filming an episode of Bar Rescue, he only has four days, which means that he's got to get to people really fast. And he found that just the normal ways of talking didn't really work in that compressed amount of time. So he had to become two people. there's John. This is the way that he thinks of it. There's John, the normal professional, the guy I know.

4:25And then on TV, there's Taffer. Taffer in many ways is unwavering, closed-minded, aggressive, do it my way or hit the highway. I don't have the time to talk about it, but you know why we've been that week. I'm taking 30 days of work and compressing it in the four days. So I don't have the time. There's a reason why. John described this to me as a dynamic change to his personality that over time, as he was filming Bar Rescue, and by the way, it is approaching or maybe has just hit, depending on when you're listening to this, it's 250th episode, which is wild. John found that in filming this show, he had to transform.

5:06him. He went from just John to John and Taffer because Taffer was the guy who could get people to listen to him in four days. Taffer was the guy who made things move faster. And as he was saying to me, he was like, look, if you had to write something for Entrepreneur Magazine in 20 minutes that usually took you two days, you would have to rethink the way in which you do things. to make it work. And when he said that, this light bulb moment happened for me. I just, I felt like, oh my God, I understand something about the way in which people change as leaders, as workers. And so here's what I told him.

5:56What you're saying there reminds me in a strange tangential way. So stay with me. It really will come back to you. to something that John Mackey, the co-founder and longtime CEO of Whole Foods recently told me, he said that the reason why he believes he was a successful leader for as long as he was, was because the question that he kept asking was, what does the company need from me? And then he needed to be willing to reinvent himself to meet whatever the needs of the company were. He says leaders often have too firm of an idea of who they are and what their value is. And so they'll hold on to something long past when it's useful for the company.

6:39And the reason I'm telling you that is because I'm just thinking back to you explaining how that character of Taffer on the show came to be and the way that you act on the show is different from you are in real life and how uncomfortable that was at first. But the reason you just told me was because you were finding in this concentrated amount of time, the way to get things done, the way to get someone to listen to you was to start acting differently. You functionally asked yourself, this is an observation, but I asked you to confirm or deny it. But from what you're hearing, it seemed like what you did was you asked yourself, what does this situation need me to be?

7:15And the answer to that is what you became. And that turned out to work. What do you think about that? I think that quite might be in 13 years of interviews, one of the most insightful questions and statements that's ever been said to me. And nobody's ever said anything quite like that to me. And the fact that it came from you doesn't surprise me at all. Oh, flattery. I appreciate that, John. I will take it. What followed from this exchange was just a really fascinating conversation about management and about business and about the way that we have to transform ourselves to fit the needs of the things that we're building or running.

7:54And that is the conversation that I want to play for you today on Problem Solvers. It is technically in honor of John Taffer's 250th episode of Bar Rescue, but it's not just about John. It's about you. It's about me. It's about anyone building anything and who and what we have to become to truly succeed with it. Coming up after the break.

8:43running up costs and scale easily no matter your tech stack. Enjoying the best of both? It's possible. It's Okta. Okta, the world's identity company. To learn more, visit OKTA.com. All right, we're back. I'm talking with John Taffer, host of the great television show Bar Rescue, which is hitting its 250th episode. Totally crazy. And for the break, We were talking about how John had to adjust his personality and his working style to meet the demands of the show and the filming schedule. He couldn't just be relaxed, thoughtful John. He had to become this other person, this taffer. And how necessary, in fact, that is for all of us in our own ways.

9:36It doesn't matter if there's no television crew around. we always have constraints. And to be successful leaders and managers, we have to figure out how to transform and fill and succeed within those constraints. And I'll pick it up from there with John. So that's fascinating because let me take that a step deeper. I've identified that there are different ways to change behavior. I can do it through pride, right? I can appeal to pride and pump you up and get you to change. I can apparent it to fear. I can appeal to your heart, your kids, your wife. I know how much they mean to you. So if your actions are going to change how much they respect you, you're probably going to take that action.

10:20So I never thought about that way before. So I, and boy, I've never talked about this with anyone. It's exciting to even talk. I'm put in a situation. I'm told I got to change this guy's behavior in four days. He's going to lose his house. He has two young kids. His wife is in a corner hysterical crying. This is real shit, man. This guy's pounding on me. This isn't TV, man. This is real to me. The cameras happen to be there. So how do I motivate this guy? So I try pride, screaming at him. What's going to happen when you fail? What are your neighbors going to say when you tell them, oh, I had to close the place?

10:55I try. Doesn't work. So now I try fear. What happens when you lose your house? Where the hell are you going to put your kids to sleep? I try that approach. It doesn't work. So he drinks. I put a picture of his kids on the bottom of his glass. So every time he picks it up, he's staring at his kid in the bottom of the glass. I think you probably saw that episode. How do I crack through? If I got to throw food at him, I will. It evolved to throwing that food. Man, it is so insightful what you said, Jason. I never thought of it that way. I'm successful in bar rescue in those four days, and I am, because I modified my behavior for that situation to make that work.

11:35And I would never behave that way in a normal situation. That's fascinating when you look at it that way. And it goes to show when we talk about, and even in my book, Don't BS Yourself, I talk about the excuses that we use. And you and I had this discussion years ago. Yeah. And one of those discussion points that we have is fear and excuses and all of those things. You have to get past the fear to be able to do that to somebody. Yeah, you sure do. And as a manager in a corporate environment, we have the same moments. The first time you fire someone, the first time you look at somebody and say, I'm sorry, I'm passing you up on a promotion, or you deny a raise or any of those types of things, it takes courage to attack those situations.

12:20And candidly, where people fail as a TV host is when they don't have courage. And when people fail as managers more often than not, I think it's because of courage more than ability. That's pretty deep, isn't it? It is. And I love the line that you just drew from being a TV host to being a manager, because the thing that we're describing is this. I hadn't thought of it until you just said it, but is also the same. The way someone is as an, as a manager, isn't the way that they are at home. It isn't the, they're not bringing their full sense of self to being a manager. They're thinking, what does this situation need from me as a manager?

12:59What does this team need from me as a manager? What does this company need from me as a manager? I need to evolve into that role, which is a part of you, right? There's a part of you that is the character of Taffer on the show, but it's also custom built for that situation and for that need. And if a manager doesn't realize that, then they're always going to be timid and afraid. And they're always going to think, I don't know how to do this because it's not something that I do in home and are other parts of my life. That's not relevant. That's not a relevant question. Question isn't, do you not know how to do it?

13:26The question is, can you learn how to do it? And do you have the courage to challenge somebody to their face and be honest with them? You know, you do, I do, because we've learned how to be leaders. The first time you did that, buddy, it wasn't so easy, was it? Not at all. Not at all. Yeah. That's a powerful conversation. What else I find today is this conversation might have been different pre-pandemic too. Because I think the human resource, that whole employee environment has changed post-pandemic as well. quality of life has become almost more important in quality of career with a lot of people.

14:02There's been a lot of shifts post-pandemic, which I think has changed into what we just said even more. I just love you to unpack that a little bit more. Do you think that it's harder to be a manager post-pandemic? Do you think it's harder to grow into the role that is necessary of you post-pandemic? Where do you see that challenge being? I think it's harder to be a manager post-pandemic. I think that employees are very hung up on quality of life these days. In an interview, the first thing they'll tell you is, I need three days off a week. There are far more conditions put forth by the interviewee than the interviewer these days.

14:36That's a real shift in the dichotomy of the workplace. I also find, and we've touched upon this over the years, I think, but this relevancy thing is really, on social media, people post a picture. I could post the ugliest picture of me ever posted. Put it online and somebody's going to say, looking great today, John. I'm fake gratification. And it comes instantly. I post it within an hour, I'm gratifying. You come to the workplace, you don't get instant gratification. It doesn't work that way. You start on the bottom of the totem pole. You're not so relevant on your first day of work either. So online, I'm relevant.

15:12I'm getting gratified. I'm getting all these emotional pats on the back and I'm living in this world of fake gratification and instant relevancy. I only go to restaurants where I'm relevant. I only go to places where I can take an Instagram photograph and be important. I'm important. I'm relevant. Look where I am. Look what I'm doing. Look what I'm drinking. It's all about this relevancy thing. Excuse my animation. You got me going, buddy. I love it. It's all about this relevancy thing. So now they come to work. They're not as relevant, certainly as they are online. The gratification doesn't come right away.

15:45The promotions, the raises, those things, and they don't stay. So turnover becomes a real challenge. challenge so getting them to come into the company getting them to buy into the company and the way we manage them has to change i almost have to walk up to you every day jason say good to see you buddy give you a pat on the back i'm glad you're here i got to give you relevancy every day i got to make you feel important every day i got to fill this daily void that didn't used to exist free fake gratification online so i think it's an interesting dynamic and some people might say you're crazy, John, but this is what I see out there.

16:21Now, that challenge is the way I hire, the way I keep people, the way I promote managers, the relationships that I have with employees. Now, let me couple that for you. In today's world, I used to be a hugger. I used to be, if you were a great bartender for me, Jason, and I came to work, I'd say, how are you, buddy? How's life doing? Blah, blah, blah. Give you a little hug, right? It's the way I am. A female employee, same deal. It's the way I am. I've always felt that I could have a personal relationship with my employees. If they had a problem, they could come talk to me. I truly cared. And I found that I had the personality that they did come talk to me when I had issues and I could help, whether it would be lending them money or advice or time.

16:56I would always be there for them. Today, I can't hug anybody. I can have a lawsuit on my hands. I can't ask people how their personal life is. That's a lawsuit today. So when you take the fact that relevancy is more important and instant gratification is more important. Then put the fact that there are these barriers now to having a closer personal relationship with your employees. I'm not saying inappropriate. I'm saying closer personal relationship. These two things are working against each other. Because of the barrier of a relationship, they're not getting the gratification and the importance that they would have gotten years ago.

17:32I find that these things are slapping each other in the face and we as operators are stuck in the middle. Has anybody ever elaborated in that way about those things to you before in that way? Not quite like that. These are things that are floating around and I think people are observing and feeling, but I think it's really helpful for you to just put them together and then literally smash them into each other because what it shows is where so many leaders feel squished in the middle of it and unsure of what to do. Which interestingly, John, I don't know, So I'd love to know what your, what guidance you have for folks who feel squished like that.

18:10But I would guess the starting point is at the very least, look, it goes back to something we were just talking about in other versions, both for you and the show. And then when we drew that line to managers, which is that whatever the situation is, whether you like it or not, the first thing to do is look at the situation and say, what is required of me? How do I have to adapt to this myself? Because yeah, we are all recognizing challenges and you could stand around and bitch about those challenges until your business closes, but that's not going to get you anywhere. So instead the question has to be, all right, this is what it is right now.

18:46This is the expectations that are surrounding me. So how do I adapt? Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because those who adapt are the ones that are succeeding today. For example, years ago, and I used to look at human resource polls and stuff, I would find that if the employee really loved the person they were working for, really loved them, really felt gratified by working for them, felt they had a personal connection with them, I'll use the word general connectivity with that employee, suddenly the next raise didn't mean as much. The quality of life, working for somebody they liked coming through for every day, somebody who recognized that when they did come through for them every day.

19:26Payroll and things like that didn't mean as much. Now we've taken that connectivity away. Employer and employees are not as close as they used to be. Now pay means more. Vacation time means more. I don't feel that way about the person that I work for anymore. Now in a small company like mine that's personality driven, I'd like to think my employees feel that way. That they love me and have a relationship with me and make sacrifices to maintain that relationship just like I would. When that connectivity is gone, Jason, think of the dynamics that change. The commitment to standards isn't as great.

20:03The commitment to me as a manager enforcing standards isn't as great. I can't just discipline you all the time because I'm never doing positive stuff with you. You don't know me. We don't have that relationship where I can look at you and say, listen, buddy, I love you, but you got it clean. It's really challenging today. So we have to find other ways to create connectivity. And we can't do it in the workplace like we used to. My company, we'll do bowling parties. We'll do company dinners. We'll try to do things like that. Then we don't talk work, social environment. Spouses and partners are encouraged to come and friends and kids and family.

20:39And we try to create connective exercises that don't blend with work. Yeah. And so connectivity needs to be an objective then, doesn't it? Yes. And it needs to be relevant in, or prevalent, I should say, in that manager's mind. How do I connect with my people so they want to work for me? And through that connection, I can grow them and correct them and better perform for the company. It's a challenge today. Yeah. What you're saying, it's very neatly inside of a framework that I have found incredibly useful, which is a psychological theory that came in out of the 1980s and incredibly influential in understanding human motivation.

21:24It's called self-determination theory. And it says that everyone needs three things, three things, they have three basic psychological needs that they need in order to be happy and motivated. Those three things are autonomy. You need to feel like they're making decisions on their own. Two, to what you were just talking about, connectedness. You need to feel connected to the people that they're working. And then three, competency. They need to feel good at what they do. And I have found that - Which is gratification in a sense, isn't it? Yes, very much so. I mean, the reason I bring this up is because it was just fascinating to hear you talk from a real management expertise perspective and see how well that maps on top of this psychological understanding of motivation.

22:05So we're saying the same thing, just using different words. Yeah, that's exactly right. Right. So what you're what and what you're really guiding people towards here is understanding the basic needs of the people that work for them and then making sure that you're creating environments that fulfill those needs. Years ago, I used to say, and I still say it, some people think it's a cold hearted term. I don't think so at all. To me, the definition of management is the achieving of objectives through the manipulation of others. The manipulation is an ugly word. I could choose a better word. But if I said to myself, Jason's a great employee, I'm giving him a 20 % raise and a promotion.

22:41One could say that was manipulative because I'm going to get more out of you. So I don't say manipulation in a bad way. It's looking at the employee and saying, OK, what can I do to motivate this employee? What can I do to get them to be better than they even think they could be? How do I do that? Is it a kick in the butt? Is it more recognition? Is it a raise? Is it a challenge? What is it? I've looked at it that way for a long time. I'm a little older than you are, buddy. So I've seen a lot of changes over these years in these dynamics. It's fascinating. You think that the employer-employee relationship wouldn't have changed as much, but it's a complete opposite of what it was in many ways just a few years ago.

23:16John, because we're talking here at your 250th episode, how do you, and I think this is something that everyone grapples with when they've been doing something for a long time, how do you keep something interesting, interesting, not just for others, but for yourself as well. Anything can be repetitive. And what I have found in talking to incredibly accomplished people like you and people who are just running main street businesses is that it doesn't matter what you feel. It doesn't matter how amazing it is. If you've been doing it a long time, it can start to feel old and you have to figure out a way to discover some newness to it, to discover something that pushes you in an unexpected way.

24:01And I'm curious after doing 250 of these episodes, which take a lot of your time, how you are doing that for yourself. Each one is fresh. And I don't know if I've ever told you this before. At the end of the episode, we do the hug. And what people don't know is our microphones are under our shirts on our chests and nobody hears what's said when we hug each other. And it's some of the most powerful things people have ever said to me, Jason. You changed my life. I'm talking to my, oh, here was the best one. My wife and I slept in the same bed last night, first time in nine years. Oh my gosh. I'm talking to my son again.

24:35You've given me hope, John. The things they say in my ear when I'm hugging them are just so freaking powerful. That next week, I'm just invigorated to go at the next person even more aggressively. That's how I got louder and louder. And I find the ones that fight me the hardest, Jason, are the ones that give me the biggest hugs. so I push and push and push but in real life you can't do that in a real workplace in a real workplace you have to inspire also I find in the workplace and in bar rescue keeping it fresh I have a lot of people who've been with me for 12 years on bar rescue most of my crew has been with me a long time I'm very proud of that especially in tv and it pleases itself every year we have to bring on some new people because people move on to other shows and things like that if they're not right.

25:22I'm not even involved. The team will sort them out. The team will push them out. And they just don't have our DNA. You know what I'm saying? They're just not one of us. So when you have a great team around you, it starts to become a little self-policing. Steven Jobs used to talk about that with Apple. And he would create these pirate teams, if you will. And he would let them self-police their own team members. And if the core of the team was strong, then the rest of the team tended to be pretty strong too. So a lot of that is empowerment today. And I think one of the ways that you can create gratification and create relevancy is through empowerment.

25:59And through that empowerment, success and completion of things that you've been empowered, tasks or projects or whatever it might be, can feel really good when they're finished. So one of the approaches that we've taken in my company, and it's one of the ways we keep things fresh is we always have a project or two around. Brown butter is my last one. I think we sent you a bottle, didn't we? Did you enjoy it? You did not send me a bottle, but I'd be happy to take one. I'm sending you one now. So suddenly I'm in the bourbon business. I never thought I would be two years ago. How that started, by the way, is a good entrepreneur story.