GoRuck's Founders on Why Community Makes You Future-Proof

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0:30Emily McCarthy:There used to be this, you know, maybe this train of thought 20, 30 years ago that you could trick the customer. And I don't think that's possible anymore. I mean, people are very smart and people are savvy and people will educate themselves or they will find, you know, find the answer. And so, you know, Jason likes to say bad news doesn't get better with time. And and, you know, it sometimes helps to just front load that and say, hey, we're going through this and these are the steps that we're taking.

1:00Jason McCarthy:Running a business means solving problems. I tell you how the smartest entrepreneurs do it. Hi, I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and this is Problem Solvers.

1:14Jason McCarthy:When costs are going up, what do you do? Well, I mean, there's kind of the obvious answer here, which is that you have to raise your prices. You pass it along to the consumer. This is the thing that you see in the news everywhere. Every consumer is aware of this. They're like, oh, our costs are going up. And then they get angry and they're not always sure who to get angry at. But they usually get angry at the company, at the founder, if they know who the founder is, because they see their costs going up and money's tight and people are upset. And so if you are that founder, well, how do you handle that moment?

1:46Jason McCarthy:What do you do? And if your costs are going up, then your revenues have to go up. Well, today I'm going to talk to someone, two people actually, co-founders of GORUCK who had to navigate exactly that. And their answer was transparency, to just be really clear and upfront with their consumer about what was going on. And they were not sure what was going to happen. But I think that their story could be very instructive for you. So I am here with Jason and Emily McCarthy, the co-founders of GORUCK. Go Ruck is, well, they'll explain it better, but it's basically a big, heavy backpack. And I own one, and I love using my Go Ruck, although I don't love how sweaty it makes my back.

2:26Jason McCarthy:Maybe I'll ask them about that. But Jason and Emily, I am so happy to have you here on Problem Solvers. Welcome. Thanks for having us. Okay, guys. Yeah, wait. First of all, is there a solution to, explain what a Ruck sack is, explain what Go Ruck is, and tell me if there's anything I can do about my extremely sweaty back, and then we're going to get down to business. Okay. All right. I almost want to start with your really sweaty back. And you sort of say, that's good. I mean, the goal is not to live inside the air conditioning your whole life and die with this perfectly orchid-style body. The body's anti-fragile.

3:08Jason McCarthy:You got to use it. Part of that is sweat. Go sweat some more and you'll get stronger, healthier, happier. you'll feel better, all the things. And if a byproduct is your back gets a little sweat on it, you know, so be it. So the rucksack, put the weight in the rucksack, put the rucksack on your back and start walking. That's it, that's rucking. Right, so you're walking with a heavy backpack. And the reason I love it, I will tell you, is because I hate running and I love walking. And I was looking for some way to add some more physical fitness to my life. and then I was introduced to the Go Ruck rucksack and I put it on and I acclimated to 20 pounds on my back and then it feels quite good.

3:52Jason McCarthy:It's taking a walk. It doesn't strain me like running, but it feels like I'm doing something and yet I still get to enjoy walking around. That's my relationship to the rucksack.

4:01Emily McCarthy:What is it about the sweaty back that you don't like, Jason?

4:07Jason McCarthy:It's that, and let's be clear, when we're talking about a sweaty back, if for those who don't know and we will get to the pricing thing in just a second but it is so you've got it you know you've got a backpack and it's and it's heavy and it's flat up against your back so if it's hot out uh there's the the place you're gonna place i sweat the most is just like where this object is up against me um it feels just kind of uncomfortable and it's like it's like trapped you know like i i don't i can't get if i'm walking around and i'm sweaty uh at least I have some breeze on me, but if I've got a heavy object up against me, there's no breeze on me.

4:42Jason McCarthy:It just feels like a sort of compressed sweat. Yeah. So two things. There is, you know, we increased the lumbar support in the lower side of it. I'll get out of the features and benefits really quickly. But it's just to say, you can get a little bit of airflow. There's a slight offset. The physiological thing about rucking though, which is 2 million years old. We didn't invent it. We didn't think, you know, I learned it in the army and learned it in the CIA. We sort of paid those lessons in education forward through GORUCK, but you want the weight high and tight on your back. It feels a lot better.

5:15Jason McCarthy:It feels like an extension of your back as opposed to, I could offset that a ton and start putting heavier and heavier weights. It just becomes very uncomfortable. The more it moves on your back, the worse it is. So the farther off it is off your back, then the more it's going to move. So physiologically, you want it to be an extension of your back. And, you know, and rucking, it might be heavy, but 10 pounds is rucking and 125 pounds is rucking. And so you get to sort of pick your own adventure and your body gets to pick its response. Yeah. I do 20 pounds. Sometimes I do 30 pounds, but that that's, that's a little much for my shoulders.

5:51Jason McCarthy:So I do the 20 and you're right. It does. It does feel, uh, it feels surprisingly steady. It doesn't feel like you're like lugging around weight because it does feel like it becomes part of your body. So, um, maybe I just have to get over it. Maybe you're just, you're just telling me that I'm a, um, I'm a softy, I'm a softy and I need to just sweat more without a shirt. Yeah.

6:11Emily McCarthy:Or rock without a shirt, maybe. Yeah.

6:14Jason McCarthy:I guess I could do that. And then, uh, different kind of sweaty back. All right. Guys take me into this moment when, and, and look, you know, So GORUCK is, when people think of rucking, I think they think of GORUCK. You've really become the leading brand here in this space, and I know it's becoming more popular all the time. So take me into this moment when you've got a really loyal consumer base, you've got a lot of brand awareness, and now you're starting to get squeezed on costs, and you're thinking you've got to raise prices. What was that like?

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7:28Jason McCarthy:But, you know, people expect you to still stay in business. If it means something, then you have to figure that out. Like behind the scenes, you have to figure that out. And so it leads to uncomfortable and hard conversations. And we just choose to have those more in the open than what is kind of normal doctrine. So when you start to look at the cost side of the business, and every once in a while you have to audit it. And, you know, in times of chaos, as it has been for the last year and a half, specifically, you know, it's been a lot of hard audits against what the hell is going on. And so that just led to, okay, well, what do we need to do?

8:05Jason McCarthy:And what do we have to do? And so audit the costs. And then it was, you know, then we got into the sort of, okay, well, we need to raise prices. And Emily, you want to pick up from there? When you realize you've got to raise prices, that can't feel good. You're going to upset some people.

8:25Emily McCarthy:Yes, no, absolutely. In fact, when we first decided we were going to, you know, make this announcement, I immediately, I manage our community, our 700 Ruck Clubs. I've been like close contact with a lot of people that are Ruck Club leaders and people that have just been with us over the years. And a lot of them we've gotten to know personally through our events. and I started getting some messages coming in. And a lot of people were saying like, oh, I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this. You know, they come in like that. And I was like, oh, how bad is it? You know, but I went to the forums, you know, where this is taking place, you know.

9:10Emily McCarthy:And honestly, it was like, if there was like one, you know, kind of angry person or, you know, someone doomsday, it was filled with hundreds more of thank you for this information. And it just, I think it goes to show you, I mean, there used to be this, you know, maybe this train of thought back in, you know, 20, 30 years ago that you could trick the customer. And I don't think that's possible anymore. I mean, people are very smart and people are savvy and there's lots of information. There's not as much gatekeeping as there used to be. And people will educate themselves or they will find, you know, find the answer.

9:53Emily McCarthy:And so I think it, you know, Jason likes to say bad news doesn't get better with time. And, you know, it sometimes helps to just front load that and say, hey, we're going through this and these are the steps that we're taking. Here's what you can expect. Here's what's not changing. And just sort of having that conversation up front. I mean, oh, so this, this is what you did.

10:18Jason McCarthy:Let's not jump over this. Oh yeah. Sorry. This is what you, you guys decided to do, which was that I assume they were, you were looking at having to raise your costs, some specific amount, and you were trying to decide exactly what to do about that. Do you just roll it out or do you message it? And if you message it, then how do you message it? So, uh, take me into the decision making process of, of how to message it. How did How did you guys approach that? It was never really a, there was never really thought behind, hey, we're just gonna phantom do this one day. That's just sort of not our MO.

10:51Jason McCarthy:I mean, I think for some context, look, it's, I'll get to the specifics of your question, which really matter, but the background is, we're completely 100 % family owned. So we don't have investors breathing down us to make next quarter's returns be whatever they are, for better, for worse, right? Mostly for better for us. And, you know, and we've been doing this since 2008. So we have a lot of trust built up. This isn't just some, hey, I've got a good idea today kind of a thing. So the details mattered enormously, which are, you know, we used our email list. So we sent out to 500 ,000 people and said, hey, we're going to raise prices.

11:36Jason McCarthy:It's going to happen at this date. It's about a month off. Here's the why. We did this multiple times. At the end of all of those emails, I put my personal email address and I said, email me directly with any questions or feedback. And I got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of notes back. And I'd say about 1 % of them were negative in line with what we saw on social media. 1 % were negative. Hey, you're a capitalist pig. These prices should be lower already. And it's just like, okay, got it, right? Thanks. And that's okay, right? If you can't take that kind of fire, then you're probably in the wrong job.

12:13Jason McCarthy:But we sort of made it personal. And we leveraged the story. But we also gave people time to say, hey, these prices are going up at this time. And so there's no bait and switch, you have this amount of time. And from the business side of it, it also pulls demand forward. So you're able to kind of pull it forward from your most trusted people that have helped you get to where you're going. And that builds further trust. And it worked. What, how long did you spend on the message? Like, was this something that you put a lot of thought into and test it out? Or did you just kind of? It took me about 15, 20 minutes, and we sent it.

12:55Yeah.

12:55Jason McCarthy:And you know, and it was like, hey, my personal email is on here, just shoot me a note. And then I went on social and I answered every single comment of, well, I won't say every single one, but almost every single one. And, you know, it's like there's something to, and then you start to see people helping out as well. Because we know a lot of these people. We know tons of them. Even the anonymous ones on, say, Reddit. Like, I don't know who people are on Reddit, but they know who I am. And so, you know, they sort of start to give the message that you're giving them via email and the social posts.

13:31Jason McCarthy:And they sort of do a lot of the bidding to stop what are inevitable. The trolls are inevitable. And we just didn't see that many of them, though. It's a pretty straightforward way to do it. And I would highly recommend it as a blueprint to any of the other folks out there that this is the way you should do it. Guys, I wonder if, oh, sorry, Emily, what were you going to say? Oh, I was just going to add, Jason, it just felt like a conversation with people you've known for a long time.

13:55Emily McCarthy:You know? And you're just kind of catching them up on the latest.

14:00Jason McCarthy:Right. Well, that tees up the thing that I was just going to say, which is that it almost feels like the reason why this was so easy was because of a lot of work that had happened leading up to it that wasn't actually related to this at all. It sounds like because I know that you both are big community builders, that you are very active in meeting your consumer base. Emily, you're talking about running all of these like ruck clubs. So maybe we need to zoom out a moment and I'd love your insight and guidance to other founders on what it means to be in touch with and building a community with your consumer so that they feel like they know you, you know them.

14:47Jason McCarthy:And therefore, when something changes in the business, they feel invested enough in you that they don't feel offended.

14:53Emily McCarthy:Jason might have like a different take on this, but we've worked, you know, complimentary with our different sort of skill sets and approaches over the years. But I can say that, you know, it really is just a factor of time and keeping those lines of communication open. Like over the years, I've had people come to me with ideas and, oh, can you support me in this? And it really is a trade-off situation where it's like, hey, you're there for them when they need it. And likewise, you know, and it's really this bond that we have with a lot of our people that have been with GoRick from the early days.

15:35Emily McCarthy:I mean, like it feels like a garage band back, you know, back in the time, like we know these people personally and and they have done so much goodwill, like helping spread that like, hey, we're real people. We make mistakes. You know, we go through tough times like anybody. And, you know, and I think another big thing is that we aren't, you know, we're living a life that is consistent with the values of our company. That, you know, there's not a lot of disconnect. Like what you, you know, you see what you get and people when they come visit our headquarters or meet us at events. Like, you know, I hope and I like to think that they walk away being like, oh, that's a real person, you know.

16:19Jason McCarthy:Well, let's start and define what community means first off. Okay. So a community and a forum are completely different things. There's no such thing as a Facebook community. It doesn't exist. Right. It's not a thing. There's no such thing as a Reddit community. Right. It doesn't exist. It's not to bash on those platforms specifically. It's just to say community is in the real world. And you have to invest in that. And if you do, that's where you get the strongest ties that bind people together. And so, you know, what does not work to, you know, advice, what does not work is 20 years later, you hire a chief community officer to fix something that you never cared about in the first place.

16:59Jason McCarthy:If all you're trying to do is build a widget and sell a widget on various platforms, you know, when times gets tough, you've just only got mercenaries. They're only mercenaries that have bought from you. And yes, you can build this up over time, but you have to do something to inspire people. And the real world is what we've chosen. And we've put on over 10 ,000 live events since 2010. And we have over 700 Ruck Clubs around the world. And these are sort of what we would call force multipliers. We send a special forces cadre to a street corner in cities all over the world. And, you know, we're building better Americans.

17:34Jason McCarthy:We're building better people and teams. The Ruck Club leaders all over the country, all over the world, they meet up for just general social fitness with Rucks on, right? And they become sort of the force multipliers, meaning they're carrying the message or they have more of a direct line with us because they're just more interested. This is how, you know, this is how it works. So it is all of this time and investment. You know, it's like a great athlete. Do you think that they were just born great and then, you know, game seven of the World Series, they hit a home run? It doesn't work like that.

18:04Jason McCarthy:There's millions of hours of reps that go into doing that. And so for us, it's just this is the way of life that we choose and have chosen. And so it makes something like this, you know, all the buzzwords like authentic and on brand and all of these things. But it's really just us doing what we've done since the beginning with people that we know, love and respect. How do you get a consumer out into the real world with you or with other fans of your brand? And look, you in a way, maybe someone could say, well, you guys have it easier because you have a product that lends itself very naturally to people getting together because there's all sorts of fitness clubs that are already in existence.

18:52Jason McCarthy:And so you're able to harness that cultural familiarity. And maybe that doesn't scale to other products or other areas of business. I don't know. That's the sort of, you know, it must be nice crowd, right? And for me, it's like nobody ever did this with a, quote, backpack until we did. I mean, I drove all over the country. I've made laps around this country. I was like Tyler Durden in Fight Club, setting up, running events all over the country and the world for years and years and years. How many miles did it take to build GORUCK? All of them. How many hours? All of them. And that's what we cared about.

19:28Jason McCarthy:That's how we chose to get out there and be around the people. So, you know, I mean, there's always a way. I can't give you a prescription. That's the real value of human leadership but it's also following your passions. What are you passionate about? And go do more of that. I mean, there's always a way to bring people together. It doesn't have to be massively, you don't have to throw a party at a stadium, right? You can create, there's a million different ways to do it. If that's what you care about and that's what you're passionate about and you want real world community, then figure it out.

20:05Jason McCarthy:That's really how to do it.