How Columbia Sportswear Stands Out in a Crowded Market

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1:30Jason:Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools, so you can tackle projects side by side. Gift more and do more together this Father's Day with help from The Home Depot. Exclusions apply at homedeeper.com slash price match for details. I'm Tim Boyle. I'm the CEO here at Columbia Sportswear. And this message is for flat earthers. You guys claim there's an end to the earth? Well, just go snap a picture. Send it to us and you get the assets of the company. We had to think about a different way to talk about the company. And we sort of allowed ourselves to be lulled into the, hey, everybody talks about the outdoor products like this.

2:06Beautiful nature. Things are wonderful. Never. Yeah. So how do we differentiate ourselves?

2:13Jason:Running a business means solving problems. I tell you how the smartest entrepreneurs do it. Hi, I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and this is Problem Solvers.

2:28Jason:I was just flipping around on YouTube or whatever, as you do, and I came across this video that stopped me cold because it was just so fun and unusual. It was the CEO of a company that you've probably worn the clothing of, or at least certainly seen others wear the clothing of. Columbia Sportswear Company. CEO Tim Boyle is standing there at his desk and he says essentially, hey, flat earthers, if you can prove that the earth is flat, like if you can actually get to the end of it and send us a video of a cascading nothingness off of the edge of the earth, then I'll give you the whole company. I'll give you everything.

3:10Jason:And then he basically just goes walking around the company showing all the things that he would give. And this thing had gone viral and it was so fun and seemed to just capture the joy of the outdoors that I got to wondering, where did this come from? Why did they do this? And so I just started Googling around and I found some answers. As it turns out, this company was looking for a repositioning in the marketplace, addressing a question of sales and how do we get sales up? and had recognized that the outdoors industry, the outdoors sportswear industry had just become really self-serious. Not something I had thought much about, but as soon as I read it, I thought, well, yeah, that's true.

3:58Jason:It is all about the beauty of nature or the serenity of this or whatever, but there wasn't a lot of joy and fun and Columbia had recognized that there was an opportunity to position in joy and fun, to capture that thing that, of course, is also the reason that people go out into nature. And this was the flat earthers thing, just part of a longer and larger campaign to do just that. So anyway, I wrote about this on LinkedIn because I loved it so much. And then I heard from someone at Columbia who said, hey, do you want to talk to Tim Boyle about this? And I said, yes, of course I do. And so today I am delighted that I've got CEO and Chairman Tim Boyle of Columbia Sportswear Company to talk to me about where this came from and how to think about repositioning an old brand in a new era.

4:47Jason:Tim Boyle, welcome to Problem Solvers. Thank you very much. It's thrilling to be here with you, Jason. Appreciate it. Oh, well, it's a thrill to have you here. So, okay, Tim, you heard my setup here. Yep. Take me into the thinking, and maybe let's start by acknowledging that humor is not new to this brand, but humor was not a part of the brand more recently. That's true. So, you know, the overriding premise is, and we talk about this all the time in the company because we're a global company. Over 40 % of our sales are outside the U.S. So we know how to make stuff and we distribute it all over the world.

5:26But nobody needs another brand of apparel and footwear. There are zillions. In fact, our business in China, our management there tells us we have about 700 competitors in China. So, you know, again, there's plenty of places. So it's all about being different and differentiating yourself. So if we go back to the real foundings of the company, which was, you know, we were founded in 1938 by my mother's parents. But in any event, we ended up really starting a large business in the 70s. And that was based on an advertising campaign, which was the basic premise was my mom, who was the president of the company, putting me through all sorts of tests.

6:18and those tests included her being relatively mean to me to make me go do all sorts of stuff outside which to prove that the garments work well so and how old were you at the time oh i was i'm in my late 70s now so i was in my late 30s early 40s then so okay so you've got you've got

6:39Jason:mom ordering you around basically as a way of stress testing the clothing that you're wearing Yes. And humorous. I was on top of a car that went through a car wash. She drove over me with a Zamboni. Oh, my God. Threw me off a cliff, left me on the top of a mountain. I mean, they're just anyway, it was it was a lot of fun. But, you know, when my mom passed, we had to think about a different way to talk about the company. And we sort of allowed ourselves to be lulled into the, hey, everybody talks about the outdoor products like this. Beautiful nature. Things are wonderful. Never. Yeah. So how do we how do we differentiate ourselves?

7:23And that's when my son did a global search for a new advertising agency. And he found these people in in London called A &E. And they really understood, hey, we know what the nature of the company was initially. Let's go back to those kind of routes, doing tests of all different kinds. And by the way, it's not about marketing with television commercials anymore. It's really about getting noticed online. So that was the premise. And actually, their offices in London are very close to the Flat Earth Society's headquarters.

8:04Jason:I didn't know there was a flat earth system. Yeah, there is. So one of the guys said, hey, let's do a challenge. So there you are. That's how it happened. That's how it began. I love that. Okay, there are two things that I really want to pick up on of what you just said. Number one was about positioning in a crowded marketplace. And I want to share something that was said to me a while ago that's always stuck with me and get your reaction to it. And then number two is let's talk about how to recognize white space in the world of ideas, right, is to recognize that everyone has zigged and so it's time to zag.

8:38Jason:So to start, you had said in China alone you've got 700 or so competitors. And what that reminded me of was a conversation that I had had a while ago with someone also in the sportswear industry, so to speak, which was the president of Reebok. And he had told me that he always tells his team that you can't compete on quality anymore. Because at this point, manufacturing is so good that it's very easy to produce quality. Everybody's quality in some way or another. And so if you are, and this was his example, he said, let's say that you create a new scissors company. You cannot market yourself as having the sharpest pair of scissors because everybody has the sharpest pair of scissors.

9:19Jason:And so it's got to be about something else. It's got to be about the story that you tell and the way that you identify with people. And I'd love for you to react to that and maybe think about that thinking in the world of your own business. You make quality products, but you must be aware that you are not the only ones in the world making quality products. And so how do you think about how you exist in that crowded ecosystem? We think we have a very high quality system to produce garments and deliver them on time. to retailers and consumers. and... This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome.

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10:37This is about a fun environment and let's have some fun with it. And so that's, that was the origin of the process and marketing. And so we're just continuing that. And we've done other stunts, some of which have not gotten the kind of uptake that the Flat Earth Challenge did. But yeah, we're doing more of those things.

11:00Jason:Yeah. And then let's think about that white space of ideas and maybe your advice to other founders or CEOs on how to recognize it. And this is not, of course, just the outdoor apparel industry. This is every industry. Every industry does this. And that can be frustrating until you realize, of course, that it creates a massive opportunity where once everybody has gone to one side of the room, you can go to the other side of the room. I would love to hear you talk about how to recognize that and maybe how you've done that throughout your career. Yeah, you know, it's and for the outdoor industry, typically the origins were, you know, this person wore this garment to climb Everest.

11:45And if he can climb Everest, I can wear this when I go pick up my newspaper in front of my front door, which, by the way, never happens anymore. Right. Yeah. So. We spend a lot of time talking to retail customers. When I say retail, I'm talking about people who own retail stores. What is it about our products which are different? And so we try in the product development process and design process to provide garments that are high performance but different. Oftentimes they're different by color, fabric, pricing sometimes, just all different things. But at the end of the day, when you talk about branding, that's when you can call into question the kinds of activities that we've been doing with the Flat Earth Challenge and others.

12:36So you really end up learning this by asking people their opinions and being open to criticism and advice.

12:47Jason:If you could break that down for me, that would actually be really interesting. So number one is, what kind of questions are you asking? Like what's a good strategy for drawing out useful information from your retail partners? And then number two, what kind of things were you hearing that made you think we've got to start thinking differently? Well, it is about asking. So we would and still do frequently take prototype garments in advance of a season and show them to retail buyers. And they're more than happy to tell you whether or not you're on the right track or you're off track or whatever.

13:23And they'll tell you what price you need to be at with your with your products and, you know, what people think about your brand. So all that stuff is is knowable if you're willing to go just ask people. And they're more than happy to give you advice. And so you can't rely on one or two people. But we found that over time, individuals who maybe run a small retail store, somebody who's doing the buying themselves and they're observing what's happening on the floor, they can tell you, hey, I just saw five people walk up to that garment because of its color. And three of them bought it, but two didn't like it.

14:05You know, whatever. You can find out a lot about that kind of activity. So if you just listen and accept criticism. Mm-hmm.

14:15Jason:It's funny. I often give people this advice when talking about consumer research, which is it's so valuable to ask someone, either a customer of yours who maybe isn't buying more or isn't recommending you to others, or someone who isn't buying at all, some version of, hey, if you didn't buy this, what would be the reason? If you didn't recommend us to other people, what would be the reason? You could go over to somebody who's wearing Columbia sportswear and say, hey, if you didn't tell your friends to buy Columbia, what would be the reason for that? And the reason I like that question, and I'm just curious for your thoughts or if you've done something similar, is because it's hard to ask people, hey, what don't you like about something?

15:05Jason:It's almost too broad. They don't know what to say. But if you put it in the framing of why are you not making a specific decision, they suddenly might think, well, why wouldn't I recommend it because of the price? Or I wouldn't recommend it because I had this experience once and it didn't quite do what I want, or whatever it is. I wonder what maybe you've learned over the course of running Columbia about how to really get inside the mind of the person you're selling to, whether that's the retailer or the consumer. Yeah, I mean, we do a lot of it. And actually there's nothing like going and physically doing it.

15:42I mean, we're doing a podcast now and we're, we're talking digitally, which is great, but there's nothing like being, you know, in the same room and touching the products. And this is the, the tactile stuff that we, that we, you know, we, we talk about it all the time. We don't sell digital stuff. We sell real stuff that people put on and have to like the way it makes them look and how it feels. And it's, you know, it's a tactical business.

16:10Jason:Okay. So Tim, this advertising agency, I presume brings you the idea of the flat earth thing. It's a, it's a bold idea. It is bold in a number of different ways. Number one, it is a change in tone from how the company had been talking more recently. Number two, you're at the center of it. And number three is it's touching a cultural issue. And even though I think the vast majority of people on this round earth understand that it's round, there are still plenty of very vocal and can be angry people who think otherwise. So did you hear this idea and say, oh yeah, that's great. Or did you hear this idea and say, absolutely not.

16:51Jason:And somebody had to convince you. No, no. I said, absolutely. Yes. Oh yeah. this is, you know, we, I didn't realize it was going to get the kind of traction it got. You know, we, we did several of these events. In fact, if I can tell you about one that we did, which was quite successful, but not as successful as this one, which was the premise that when are outdoor people not outdoors? Like when does the whole world come indoors? Superbowl, right? And we couldn't call it the Super Bowl project because they own that. So you got to call it the big game. The big game. So what are they doing when they're watching the big game?

17:36They're probably drinking beer. And you can make beer out of anything. So how do you get noticed when you're an outdoors person and like the outdoors? So why don't we make some beer out of bear scat? ooh bear poop beer yep which we we we did called nature calls and so we we did a whole viral campaign about you can buy this beer and uh we sold a lot of it and you know it's it was an interesting thing and we had a great time with it and um it didn't get the kind of notoriety that this one got, but it's the kind of stuff that, hey, you don't get much different than that.

18:23Jason:Yeah. What's your method of evaluating whether or not a risky idea is worth doing? Well, I sort of just, for me, to sort of get through the screen, I think about, wow, that's interesting. And people would find that interesting. Typically, we would then do, ask people about it. What do you think about this? Is it too crazy? Whatever. Then, of course, we have to get the lawyers involved to say, you know, just make sure we aren't doing something really stupid. And so, you know, it requires, obviously, when you run a public company, you got to be cognizant of that. And but yeah, I probably tend to be on the more outlandish side to willing to take risks and, you know, pushing things forward.

19:15Jason:What was the result of the Flat Earth campaign? Did you hear from a lot of people? Oh, yeah. I get I get entries every day. Really? Still. So what are the entries like? They're always the same thing that, you know, you can the Internet has photographs of the flat earth with the water running off. I get that one every day, you know, multiple people. And then, you know, I've occasionally you get stuff, people concoct an idea and they take a picture of themselves and say, okay, send me the company, you know? So, um, yeah, it's, it's still alive and kicking out there. How do you measure success for an idea like this?

20:01Well, we can measure the amount of times that people see the video we can mention. We can see what happens in terms of the resonance on the Internet, et cetera. And we've been shortlisted for a big award in Cannes at an industry event that's going to be held in the next few weeks. So we'll get, you know, it's just been one of those things that keeps on giving, frankly.

20:28Jason:Yeah. You know, the reason I asked you that question about how to measure success is because I post a lot of great marketing on LinkedIn, as I did with you, which is how we're talking today. I'll see a commercial, I'll say that's so smart, and then I'll post that video and then kind of break down my ideas about why it works. and always, I mean, every single day, there's at least one or two people in the comments who will say some version of, yeah, but did it sell product? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's a funny idea, but did it sell product? Because if it didn't sell product, then maybe it's not as good as you're saying is what they're saying.

21:04Jason:And I'd love for you to react to that kind of thinking. Well, at the end of the day, that's what we call the acid test, right? Did people buy something? And so our business has improved. And so, you know, it's hard to link it directly to that, but certainly the improved business would tell you, hey, it's working. And we just have to continue to do more and more of those things. And we think that the business will continue to improve and our brands will resonate due to those kinds of interesting activations. But do you think that do you have to draw that line in marketing? I mean, if you put out that flat earth thing and it got everybody talking and there was absolutely no way of knowing whether or not it moved a single unit, is that still a success?

21:53Well, yes, that's true. And, you know, the whole experience of marketing with a funnel, right? This is very top of the funnel. And so how it drills down into a final conversion, you can measure all that stuff. And, you know, the measurement isn't one for one, but you know that people are enjoying this stuff and thinking better about the company. And so that's what we'll continue to do.

22:19Jason:Yeah. I mean, that's what the head of marketing at Liquid Death told me, who also is really mastering the funny stunt marketing arena. And he said he thinks that brands, and he was really, when he was talking to me, he was really thinking specifically of smaller brands. But I think that this goes everywhere. He said brands think too much about bottom of funnel, which sounds counterintuitive, that there's too much conversion-oriented marketing. And that stuff is fine. But the problem is that if that's the only place that you're focused on, then you don't really get organic growth because people are only seeing you when you're trying to push them to transact instead of thinking about how to build a longer term relationship with them where they're going to convert on their own over and over again later because they just really like you because of the funnel marketing that you're doing.

23:13Jason:And so it sounds like you're thinking about that in the same way. Is that right? Right. And can you think of a more generic product than water? Right. I mean, really, why would anybody buy any of it from anybody when you could get it free out of the tap? Yeah, right. It's true. You have to get people feeling connected to the idea that you're putting out there because the product is an absolute commodity. Yeah, right. Like air. It's like air. Right. It's true. Which is not unlike what you're selling. You're not selling air, but you're selling access to air in a way. You're selling the relationship to air.

23:52Jason:So, Tim, as we come to a conclusion here, I'd love to hear you maybe speak to someone who's listening right now who is thinking about what direction their company should be speaking in. and you've seen and overseen many different versions of this direction, right? I mean, you came into this business and it was a kind of humor-driven business. It had moved away from that. Now it's back. I guess, how do you step back and think about strategically what the voice of your brand should be at any one moment? And what do you advise others to think about? Well, first and foremost, you got to be different.

24:37And, you know, it's so hard to talk about that depending on your commodity. You know, the liquid death thing, great example. I was actually just really, last week I was in Frankfurt, Germany, went to visit a customer. He's got a refrigerator in his store full of liquid death stuff, which is apparently almost impossible to buy in Germany for whatever reason. So, but, you know, we talked to him about what, what the hell, why would you do this? And so people really love this idea. So great. But But I'm always thinking when we get offered advice slash criticism, my dad always said when being criticized, self-examination is better than self-defense.