How to Catch and Hold Someone's Attention

0:00From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show in which entrepreneurs do what entrepreneurs do best, solve unexpected problems in their business. We were completely wrong. And I'm just like, it's not selling. It was like, we have to start from scratch. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

0:22This podcast, Problem Solvers, it debuted on July 31st, 2017. That is when the first episode of Problem Solvers aired. Do you know what today is? Today is the 300th episode of Problem Solvers. and it's not even 300 i've made a few more bonus episodes some sponsored episodes and so on but we're not even counting those this is just this is episode 300 normal 300 300 times i have done this sometimes when you look back and you tally the things you've done you say how is it even possible but the answer is you know one day at a time just keep going time flies it is true but also not true because you look back at 20s, hey, whatever, I'm not here to philosophize.

1:06Here's what I am here to do. If you have been a longtime listener of this show, then you know, every 50 episodes, I take a step back and pull back the curtain and share with you how I think about creation, how I think about communication, what I have learned from making this show and other things that I do, and how you can become, therefore, a better communicator too. Because this show is really all about communication. It's all about relationship building. The reason why you have listened to more than one episode of this show, assuming you have, is because I have created what I like to think of as the right mix of predictability and surprise.

1:49That's really the magic intersection in any piece of production, any piece of communication, any piece of content. It is the right mix of predictability and surprise. What do I mean by that? Well, what I mean is like, okay, you download problem solvers because there is a part of it that is predictable. You know, roughly speaking, how this show fits into your life, just as you know, roughly speaking, how someone who you follow on social media fits into your life. They produce a thing about this and you are interested in it because it fits into your life in this way. It helps you. It inspires you.

2:29It informs you. It amuses you, whatever. there's something predictable about it that you are saying yes to. But of course, if you knew exactly what they were going to post or write or say every day, that would be boring. So you don't want it to be too predictable. That's where surprise comes in. You want the surprise. You want to not know what they're going to say. You want to be delighted and inspired. And you want to hear something and say, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. That's the surprise. That's what you want. You want the right predictability and surprise. But of course, you can get that balance incorrect because imagine if, for example, you are subscribed to Problem Solvers because you are interested in building your business or just building your career.

3:09Those are good reasons to download Problem Solvers. But instead, I just start talking about celebrity gossip or something. That's not a good surprise. And that also ruins the predictability. And then you would probably stop subscribing. And then I would have nobody. So you want to create something good. You have to create the right mix of predictability and surprise. But as you do this, you will start to discover incredible insights, incredible nuances, incredible ways to be better, to communicate better, to build better relationships, to tell the stories that matter. Even if you're not a storyteller, even if you're a brand builder, even if you just show up every day to do good work, you have to be some kind of storyteller.

3:50And that is why I love pulling back the curtain and telling you what I have learned as I just keep doing it. 300 episodes in. That's what this episode is going to be about. I'm going to talk to you about a few things. Number one, I'm going to talk to you about this really interesting shift that I am seeing in podcasting and what it can tell you about how to think more creatively about why people like the thing that you make and therefore how you can make the most of it and build a better relationship and just increase value. And also, by the way, this total side note, but because I just heard myself make this noise, did you catch it?

4:27Did you catch the noise that I made just a second ago? Actually, here, I'm going to just go back and play it for you. Let me grab the old audio and build a better relationship. Did you hear that? I made an almost little whistling sound when I said relationship, like it was on the sh part. I'm going to play it again and build a better relationship. Isn't that interesting? I never noticed that. I've probably been doing that forever, is that occasionally when I make a shh sound, I create a little whistle. And I bet the 300 episodes of Problem Solvers are full of those things. And I never noticed until a few months ago, I was in a recording studio recording the audio book for my book, Build for Tomorrow.

5:11Hot tip, my book, Build for Tomorrow, which is an action plan for how you can embrace change and adapt fast and future-proof your career. I recorded the audio book as well. It's on Audible or wherever. Anyway, I was in a studio for three days recording this thing. And I'd say the most frequent thing that happened was that the sound engineer would make me re-record a word or a sentence because I kept making that whistling sound. I don't know how to stop making that whistling sound. I had no idea I was making that whistling sound until someone else was sitting there and listening to me very, very closely and thinking about how I was communicating and the thing that I was doing that I didn't even notice that might be distracting, that might inhibit my ability to communicate.

5:57And this is its own kind of really important lesson because, I mean, we are all communicating every day, but rarely are we hearing from someone who's just focused on how we do it and whether we could do it better. And we need that because you, like me, have some version of a whistle that just pops out. I can't even reproduce it right now. I mean, I guess I could do this and build a better relationship. Look at that. Anyway, okay. So what did I say? I was going to be talking to you about podcasts and what I've learned and this really interesting trend that's happening in podcasts that can inform what you do.

6:37I'm also going to talk to you about a major revelation I had as a couple of big changes happened to my newsletter. And it has given me great insight into how the incentives around us drive better or worse communication. And also what it takes to grow something like that and grow that audience. It's been very interesting. And finally, I will give you one tip on speaking because it is, I think, the tip that matters most that isn't really about speaking at all, but rather about how to be memorable. And that's what's coming up on this special 300th episode of Problem Solvers. There is a game where no one wins, where no one even wants to be playing the game.

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8:10Start hiring now with a$75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post at Indeed.com slash Problem Solvers. Offer good for a limited time. Claim your$75 credit now at Indeed.com slash Problem Solvers. Indeed.com slash Problem Solvers. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? you need indeed. All right, we're back. So like I said, the first thing I'm going to talk about is podcasting itself. I'm going to turn the mic on itself here because I've noticed something super interesting in the space and I've heard some other people talk about it, mumble about it, but it hasn't quite reached mainstream awareness yet.

8:56So let me tell you about it. you might think of podcasting as primarily a medium about interviews, where one person interviews another. And indeed, that is what Problem Solvers is. It is not what Problem Solvers originally was. Shout out anybody who's listening that long. But many, many, many years ago, this was a more produced show where I would interview someone, but then I would write a narrative out and then produce it so you would hear a lot of me and then someone else. It's basically like what happens at the beginning of the show now, except that was the whole show. And I just found that too labor intensive and eventually moved into an interview format.

9:34And that's the reason why most podcasts are interviews is because it's just less labor intensive. It's much easier to talk to another person and then even just clean up that audio a bit than it is to write out a script and produce a thing. It's just so much. And this show is made primarily just by me. And I just ran out of time. I just couldn't do it. So I started to make this interview show, which again is what most people do. But here's the interesting trend. Here's the shift that's happening in the marketplace. It is this. A lot of podcasters are finding that when they put out solo episodes, which is like what this is right now, it's a solo episode.

10:12It's just me talking to you. It is not me talking to someone else that those episodes do better, that people listen to them more, that people respond to them more. They will email, they will socialize. And I have found that to be true for myself when I do solo episodes on Problem Solvers, which isn't often that I find that people tend to tell me about those episodes more. Hey, I really liked that episode about, or they'll email me because they heard it. I've heard other podcasters say the same thing. I know a producer who had for years been working on a large celebrities podcast and found, they found that when the celebrity didn't do an interview with another celebrity and instead just talked that those episodes did better.

11:00So much so that they actually started to abandon the interview format entirely and just have the show be structured around the celebrity, just talking off the top of their head. So interesting. And you might wonder, well, why? Why? Because, you know, interviews can be good and interesting. And also there used to be this belief, I think there still is among a lot of podcasters, this belief that the guest makes the show, that the way to grow a show is to get great guests. That's one of the first questions that people ask me whenever they come to me asking for advice on podcasting. The question is, how do I get great guests?

11:34How do I get high profile guests? How do I get Gary V to be a guest on my show or whatever? Because that's going to drive listens. And here's the thing, maybe that worked a long time ago. Maybe that made sense even back in 2017 when problem solvers started, but that doesn't make sense now because there are too many shows and too many interviews. And anyone who you want to hear interviewed has already been interviewed a billion times. I mean, just to keep using Gary Vee as an example, are you a fan of Gary Vee's? Do you need to hear him interviewed on another show? No, because you've probably already heard him interviewed on a million shows and he has his own show.

12:11And so why, why if I I started a brand new show called Jason's Podcast, and I got Gary Vee to be my first guest. Why would anybody say, oh, well, I got to listen to Jason's podcast because Gary Vee is on it, because you can hear Gary Vee anywhere. And that's why the idea of the guest as the thing that drives audience doesn't make sense anymore. And I'll keep going because what I'm doing here, and I hope that you are noticing this as I keep going, is that I'm telling you about podcasting, But what I'm really telling you is about architecture. What I'm really telling you is about why things work and why they don't and how we often don't pay enough attention to that.

12:51Sometimes we are doing something and it works pretty well and we confuse that with working very well. We think because we're doing it and people enjoy it, that this must be the best way to do it. But that often isn't the case because if we spend some time drilling down into exactly what it is that they like and why they like it and what really makes it succeed, you will discover that actually there are all sorts of things that you could be doing better that they would like more. And podcasting is just a great example of that. So, all right, we've talked about why guests don't necessarily drive audience, but let's keep going as we try to investigate why solo episodes work better than guest episodes.

13:35Here's another one. Most people, let's just be honest, are bad at interviewing. They're bad. They're bad at it. It's not their fault. It's a skill. And they didn't learn that skill, often because they don't think that it's a skill. You know, it's like, that's a funny thing. It's like something like interviewing just seems so natural. We all talk to people and you might think of yourself as a great conversationalist, but that doesn't mean that you're a great podcast host because it's a different skill and people have to take it seriously. And a lot of people don't. Also, people don't or may not appreciate that they are bad at being interviewed.

14:09So many people are very bad at being interviewed. Being interviewed is a skill by itself. It requires a confidence in how you speak and an intentionality about serving the audience and a lot of material, a lot of material in your head. And again, you could learn it, but if you haven't spent time learning it, then that doesn't mean that you're gonna be good at it immediately just because you're a great person to have dinner with. These are different skills. So now we have a lot of podcasts, millions of podcasts in which most people are doing interviews, but most people are bad at interviewing and their guests are bad at being interviewed.

14:48So that's another reason because once you have solo episodes, it's a different dynamic and possibly, possibly, but we're going to get to that in a second. You are operating in a more comfortable, more authentic zone. But now let's talk about that. Because I think the reason, another reason why solo episodes can work better than guest episodes is because the barrier to entry is higher. Most people cannot just talk extemporaneously on a microphone. I had no idea how to do that years ago. None. I could not have done it. But now I can because I've just gained enough experience in it. I've pushed myself to be always thinking a step or two ahead of whatever's going to come out of my mouth.

15:34So I'm connecting what I'm saying now to what I'm going to say next. And I have a general outline of where I want to go, but also the ability to modify that outline if I say something interesting and then want to follow that path. And anyway, the point is that it's just not something that most people can do. You can learn to do it, but off the top of your head, maybe not. And that means that the people who do attempt it because they're confident enough and doing it are separating themselves from all the people who can't. And that means they're operating in a less crowded marketplace because there are fewer people doing something like this and therefore can grab more attention and also offer something that feels distinct because in a world where everyone's just interviewing each other, that leaves a lot of space for someone who can just talk directly to their audience.

16:18And now finally, the most important, I think, is this. All right. You listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast. I'm just going to assume you listen to podcasts. And ask yourself, interrogate yourself with this question. Why do you listen to the podcast that you listen to? Let's pick an interview show. Why do you listen to that show? Is it for the guest? Well, I mean, it can't be really. Maybe the reason you play an individual episode over another episode that you don't listen to, because maybe you're not going to listen to every episode. Maybe that's because of the guest sometimes, but that can't be the answer.

16:57Here's the answer. You listen to a podcast because of the host. The relationship that you have is with the consistent person whose voice you hear. That is not the guest who appears once. That is the host who is there every time. But the problem with interview shows is that the person who is heard from the least is the host, right? The host asks the questions and then the guest answers them, but the host isn't speaking that much. The host isn't offering that much. So here you have an audience of people who have built a relationship with a host. Every episode they listen to is because of the host, and yet they are not getting that much of the person that they want to hear from.

17:42Isn't that fascinating? And so when you start to do solo episodes, that changes. Now you get lots of the host. Now you're able to absorb the way that that host thinks and talks, which is the thing that you're most interested in anyway. If you listen to this show with any regularity, I have to assume it's because you find what I have to say interesting, which thank you. I am very glad to hear that. That's the goal. But also, most of the time, you don't mostly get me. you get somebody else. And sure, I can prompt them in interesting directions, and hopefully you appreciate that. But what happens if I just don't bring someone on and talk myself?

18:22Well, now you have more access to the person who you actually built the relationship with. And these are the reasons why I think that solo episodes are starting to do so much better. And now you're listening to this and you might be thinking, well, okay, if I have that insight, why do I continue to operate problem solvers the way that I do? And well, the answer is because the very concept of the show of talking to people who have solved problems in their business requires me to be talking to other people. I might be able to come up with some other format for it. Maybe I could talk to someone and then just kind of solo episode about what I learned from them, but that's inefficient.

18:56And I am just making a calculated decision right now with this show that because it was structured the way that it was, I think I shall continue to mostly do those interview shows. And the way that I will be mindful of what my audience wants is to make sure that I'm regularly interjecting my own perspective and point of view and being very clear about how I'm driving those guests so that people do feel like they're getting more from me, even if I'm not doing solo episodes all the time. But at the same time, I am exploring this kind of thing with a different podcast. I've played for you on this feed a couple episodes of a show that I co-host with my friend, money expert, Nicole Lappin.

19:39It's called Help Wanted. And on Help Wanted, Nicole and I either talk to each other about an issue, like for example, when she was incredibly anxious about doing sales calls and we talked through that problem. So now you are listening because you've built a relationship with me and Nicole on Help Wanted. And so you to hear us work out ideas. Or I do solo episodes too, just me straight solo. Or we bring somebody on, but they're never in the function of a guest expert. When we bring people on, they are always there to hear from us. So for example, what we will do is bring on someone who has some kind of problem.

20:16They are feeling stuck in their career. They are trying to figure out how to negotiate a raise. They are afraid of messing up relationships at work. and we will talk them through it, which means that we are still in the seat of authority. We're still the people you primarily hear from. We are paying off on the relationship that the audience has with us and we are helping somebody along, but they are not taking the spotlight. They are the audience, basically. The person who we bring onto the show is a stand-in for anyone in the audience who has had a similar problem. And this has been going really, really well.

20:51It's been amazing to hear the feedback. And sometimes to really lean into an insight, you need to build something that's structured around that insight and help wanted is. Problem solvers is not. So I'm going to keep doing problem solvers in the way in which I have been doing it, but I'm going to be mindful of what the audience needs and how I can improve upon that and how I can try to build in what's working with what could be better. Whereas with help wanted, I'm able to hit refresh and say, what would happen if I just Just build something totally new off of this insight. It's been a lot of fun.

21:28And I hope through breaking this down, you see how when you take something that's working and you start to really evaluate why it is and why it isn't, and also try some variations on the thing that's working. Don't just say, because this is working, I will always do it exactly this way over and over and over again forever. No, instead, what we do is we say, all right, this is really working, but why don't I run another test and see if this other thing could work better or it could inform the next thing that I do or if my audience likes this too. Because then you can start to build from there. Maybe you adjust the thing that you're already doing.

22:03Maybe you create something new alongside it. I am doing both. Okay, now we're going to take a break. And when we come back, I'm going to tell you about newsletters and what I've learned by trying to grow mine. Spring is great, right? The warm air. You can finally go outside. But wait a second. What am I supposed to do with all this stuff growing around my house? I don't know how to take care of a yard. Well, that is why there's Sunday. Sunday is everything you need to get the lawn you've dreamed of. This spring, go to GetSunday.com slash Problem Solvers and enter your address to get a customized plan created just for your lawn.

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23:21All right, we're back. So talked about podcasts. Now I want to tell you about newsletters. I, for years, have had a newsletter. And at first I called it the Pfeiffer Five. Why? Because it contained five things that interested me and I'm Pfeiffer. It was a terrible can see. Just totally terrible. The name told you nothing about the newsletter, or more importantly, why it would be relevant to you, the person signing up to receive it. And unsurprisingly, growth was slow. I topped out at maybe 5 ,000 subscribers after years. In 2021, I changed the name of the newsletter to Build for Tomorrow. This was meant to focus the newsletter to evoke an excitement for the future and attract people who wanted to take more control of their futures.

24:07And it also aligned with the name of my book, which is called Build for Tomorrow, as I had mentioned earlier. And this corresponded with an exciting new deal that I had with Facebook, which at the time had been developing a new newsletter platform called Bulletin. A lot of people have not heard of this. And you never will again. Spoiler alert. I'll tell you more in a second. But anyway, Facebook had launched a new newsletter platform called Bulletin. It was very well funded. They had reached out to me to be an early user. we struck up a pretty good deal. And so I was very happy to do it. And interestingly, the incentive there was that if I wrote a newsletter that could be resonant to the Facebook news audience, you know, the way that people find news on Facebook in the news tab, then their curation team would add that my newsletter as an article to Facebook news.

24:59So in other words, I could write this newsletter that would go out to newsletter subscribers, but also it would be experienced as an article that could be distributed on Facebook news. And getting onto Facebook news turned out to drive growth. So if an article of mine was on Facebook news and it got a couple hundred thousand reads, that would also translate into a nice number of new subscribers to the newsletter. And so what did I do? Well, obviously I started to try to game that. I tried to start writing newsletters that would get onto Facebook news And that worked. But then the Bulletin product got shut down and I had to migrate my newsletter elsewhere.

25:39I went to a platform called Beehive. And then I didn't have that incentive to try to get onto Facebook news anymore. And once I didn't have that, I started to realize something, which was that I was so focused on that incentive that I wasn't thinking about how to create a coherent experience and vision for the newsletter for all the people who had subscribed. Because, you know, writing stuff for Facebook news is pretty different from writing a newsletter that's going to be delivered to people's inboxes, that they are going to want to have that consistency and their predictability and surprise that I was talking about at the beginning of the episode, the predictability and surprise.

26:18I wasn't paying off on that. And I wasn't aware of it because I was so playing to the incentive of growth. And this is a problem. I bet you feel it. That incentives for growth can sometimes be a distraction from what actually creates value and long-term growth. And we better know the difference. So that was one thing I realized, oh no, now I need to really focus this newsletter and start to think about what is it to people now? And how can my incentives be aligned with long-term value and long-term relationships? As I was thinking about this, something happened. And what happened was that I had a conversation, four problem solvers actually, with Lenny Ruchitsky, whose newsletter about product development, which is called Lenny's Newsletter, has, at the time I talked to him, more than 325 ,000 subscribers.