How to Make Money as an Artist

28:21People love, if I was subscribed to you and then I got a bunch of other junk in my inbox, you bet I would want to open your email because I'd want to see this incredibly beautiful new image of New York and hear your story telling you what you're doing. It's just going to make my day. It's just that kind of a high point in my day. So I think that you will find that your subscribers will be very excited to hear from you and that This will be a great way for you to build relationships. It also helps you sell repeat sales to others who've bought from you and get referral sales and maybe even reach some other markets that you haven't thought about.

29:00Thank you, Carol. I'm going to really encourage you to get on that email marketing list and get that thing set up. I'm going to get to the printing on demand and reach out to whoever's currently on Wix and see what their packages are and try to get some information from them. Exactly. You can just reach out to them and say, I'm considering using you as an integrated provider in my website. And I'd like to order some samples of what you're making, then see what they offer. The other thing to look at is, do they have a really wide variety of substrates and sizes? Or maybe they don't have enough.

29:39One of the important things that I think you need to consider for your customers, Matt, is that you want to offer a variety of products in a variety of sizes and a variety of prices. because you're going to have some customers who cannot afford to buy anything that's very expensive. So what is your lowest end product? Is there something there for them? And then what is your, let's say, core price range? And then you might want to look at a bit of a reach to a higher priced item. That's several thousand dollars. I don't know what you said your highest sale was, But you might go to something that's quite large, maybe on a different substrate, so that you really have this very wide offering and that you can attract customers of different pocketbook sizes, different tastes.

30:40Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate your time. Now what? Yeah, now what indeed? So first of all, this is really interesting to hear. I feel, and Carolyn, confirm or correct me, this whole conversation is really, the starting one is really about getting Matt to stop thinking about what he's producing as purely art and start to get him to also think about it as a product. Because right now what he has is a lot of art, but he doesn't really have it productized in any way. And therefore, it's hard for people to know what is available and know how to get it. And so he's creating a pathway and an experience for that consumer.

31:20And he's taking the best of his work and turning it into something that people can easily think of as something that can be theirs. Is that basically right? Yeah, I would say absolutely. How do you feel? I'm happy to hear that you're happy with the products that I'm creating. And I understand that there's a long way to go to get those products in front of the right people and get him in a corner cell. I appreciate hearing it. All right. And as you might remember from the introduction that I made, this episode contains two phone calls with Carolyn and Matt. The first one was where they went through what the plan would be.

31:55You just heard that. And then there was a break. Matt went off. It took him a few months to execute all the things that Carolyn just talked about to get the website up and running and so forth. And then he said, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to do it. and we got back on a call and we started to look at the work that Matt had done. And that's where we're going to pick it up from here. All right, it's good to have everybody back together here. Do we know how long it's been? I haven't tracked this. It's been, look how long my hair has been. It's been about that long. That's how long I think it is. Two months.

32:30It was a long, certainly was a long road, but I'm grateful to be at this point. And I thank you guys for helping me get here. And I agreed since the last conversation we had that what you had said to me, what you guys had suggested, made all the sense in the world. Of course, it required work. And the real thing that was going was, first of all, having narrowed down five, six years of work to a certain body of work. That was a challenge. How did you do it? What was your approach? Obviously, there are two different approaches. There's what's good and what sells. And then hopefully both are going to be crossing each other.

33:14But essentially, I decided to go through it. And luckily, through some of the social media channels, I'm able to use their tools to see which ones have the most interaction. Yeah, so you're letting the market speak. That's correct. It was very hard because in a way, there was like, you hate to use the old cliche that and some of these are your babies, and then you realize that, like, that one is good, but I'm not bringing it up and putting it up on the platform. What I found to be very helpful once I realized that, because of how, Carolyn, you had suggested that this integration of the email component, the way that I can re-engage my customer base, the idea that what I'm presenting originally is only the beginning.

34:01There could be ways that I can re-engage my customer by saying, here's a release of a Brooklyn Bridge best of, or we're doing a Queens only collection. And so with that in mind, it liberated me from thinking that if I don't put this on, I'm never going to be able to use it. So that was like, once I realized that these are still alive, but they're just not going to be involved in the initial launch, then it allowed me to move forward. Matt, you had to buckle down and do a whole lot here. You're far from at the end of this journey. These are just the very first steps that you needed to take. But I'm curious what this process was like for you, just getting you to move from being totally artist oriented to being more business oriented.

34:49It's funny. My sister the other day is like, why are you out taking pictures? You have enough pictures. I said, this is what I do. I can't help myself. I do it because I love it. But then you realize that to do this and to do it and to expect money in return or to have people pay you for it. I do a lot of walking around New York. People said, and I give tours to friends of mine. They said, you should do it for a living. I said, it's not the same if you ask people for money when you show them your city. We do it out of the kindness of your heart. But eventually you have to realize that this, what I'm doing here with these photographs have value on another end as well.

35:24So to come to the realization that I'm still doing it out of the love of the project, but to try to get in front of people is a whole, it's exciting in and of itself. The website was more of a kind of a placeholder, a business card, if you will, that I was using to say, look, I'm online. Here's, you can look. but there was no way that people could engage with me through it. So now it's different. I feel like we should give an overview of what we've got here and why it works. Carolyn, do you want to talk through? Now there is, of course, the funny, we haven't said this on tape yet, so we should.

35:59There's the funny connection here, which is that Matt used your daughter as a web designer to put together the website. So I have a feeling you were going to say positive things about this website, But I'd be curious to hear you evaluate it based on what you feel like he needed to be doing to start to elevate his business. Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. And although it is true that I referred my daughter, who is a web designer for artists, but she knows what are all of the priorities. She knows how to build the right website because we have the whole list of what needs to be in a good website.

36:39And I really do love your website, Matthew, because I believe that the art is the star of the show. You've got a theme going on, which is New York City. I love your navigation, which is the people, the places, the things. It's very New York. So you come to the site and you've got the navigation and you sort of, Matt's work is very New York oriented. And so all the elements here are New York oriented. He's got a logo that says his name. And then all of the navigation has got, like they would say in deep Brooklyn, right? That's the people and it's the places. And so you got the people, the places, the tings, which I guess is the things, the Q &A, which we should talk about.

37:21I guess that's probably going to be, I haven't seen that yet. Maybe a conversation with you, Matt. Now there's the newsletter, the about and the contact. And then at the front of it, the big image is this kind of cute, illustrated cityscape that gets filled in with Matt's photography. So there are these buildings and then the buildings will get covered by photos that he's taken. One of the things that I love about this is that it's giving you information without having to write it down. You immediately know when you're seeing the cityscape that this is about the city. You're seeing this and with a picture worth a thousand words, it's presenting this urban portfolio to you before you've ever really even entered any of the pages of collections.

38:07And it's got the New York accent, which is just a really fun take on being a New Yorker. And I think that clearly you're in a niche. Clearly you have a great audience, either people who live in New York, love New York, have been to New York, wish they were living in New York. And so you've set yourself up to attract a certain type of an audience. And this is immediately evident on the very first page. And it's very inviting because it's got all of these moving parts and you're looking at the cityscape. With a large navigation bar on the left, people, places, and things are the three subjects that you've divided.

38:46They're the three collections that you've divided your artwork into so that people have different directions if they want to check them out. And then you have informational pages such as Q &A, which is going to tell people how to buy and what your terms are and so forth. A newsletter for them to sign up for, which is very important because you want to be in touch with them going forward. Your about page, which tells about you and introduces you to the visitor, the site visitor and the contact page so that they can get in touch with you with any type of a message, if they have a question or whatever, and then you'll be able to respond to them.

39:24Now, above the fold, you're seeing some of this, but as you scroll down, you're seeing another subscribe to my newsletter with an email address, a little field to be filled out, join the newsletter, and I will share with you some of my photos, stories, and experiences, as well as any special offers and collections available on the online store, which is a great way to just invite people to subscribe. And then on the left-hand side, your contact, your email, your Instagram and Facebook links so that people can follow you on social and connect with you there. And everything is very clear. It's very uncluttered.

40:03And at the very top, you've got a free shipping offer within the continental U.S. You're already talking about, oh, wow, there's a special offer for you. So come on in and let's shop. and then you can go forward into any collection you want or any other page. Great. So that's a really good breakdown. And so Matt, you put this live. Basically, all the pieces of the puzzle just came together the last couple of days with the print on demand. That was another thing that was talked about in the last conversation was creating a system to make sure that you've systematized the ordering and the production of the photos, right?

40:42That's correct. That's correct. I ended up using the same printer that I use in New York here. And they've been very hands on the quality. So like, I did all this research looking for other print on demand type solutions. And it turns out that the one I went with was in my back door. And the people that had been supporting me from the beginning. And it's working out great. Wait a second, wait. So they were the ones who you were working with at the beginning. So what's different about the relationship now? What did you know to ask that you didn't before? How are you approaching it differently? So basically, so in the past, what would happen is somebody would say, hey, that's a great photo, right?

41:26And they'd say, oh, I'd love to have it for my house. And as Carolyn, we'd spoken about before this, if you got 30 or 40 % of the people that said, I want to buy that for your house, it would be great. But you end up getting about 10 % because within the dialogue and I'll get back to you and all this, that type of mechanism needed to change, which is why that you had suggested this print-on-demand functionality within the website. And so once I did all the research, I reached back to them and said, oh, by the way, I looked at these. Can you do it as well? They said, yeah, we have this art storefronts technology, which is what we eventually implemented.

42:06And with the help of the web designer, we were able to build it into the site. So it came out really nice. I'm thrilled. I certainly couldn't have done it alone, as they say. That's some tough stuff. So Carolyn, so Matt just said, all right, he's got the site. So are we on to the next phase here of what Matt as an artist needs to do to start building his business, which is that he basically took care of the back end and the foundation of the thing he's offering. and now it's time to get it out there? Yeah, I think so. You have built a website here that's presenting your art, not everything that you make, but as you said, a nice selection that you've chosen and it draws people in, it's going to collect their names and so forth.

42:51Now, in my experience, do people make a living off of selling art solely online? That is not likely. However, it is a 24-7 headquarters that shows your work to its best advantage. And it's something that you can point to. It's something that if someone meets you, let's say at a cocktail party in New York City, and you tell them about your art, and they pull up your website because people will do this all the time. They know you're for real. Or you could be using other methods of selling, other sales channels. and there are many of them, what I would recommend for you, for example, might be an easy step, would be selling in person.

43:40So if you were doing an art show, an art festival, some type of an exhibition where people are coming and meeting you in person, trust me, they will check your website out immediately, or you might even have a QR code next to one of your photographs, and they're going to scan that code and bring the page up, which has your checkout, perhaps your product page with the shopping cart on it. So you're going to be using your website in conjunction with other ways of selling, in addition to having it as a standalone way to sell, where you're driving people from social media, where you're doing any kind of advertising online.

44:21Maybe you're doing an email campaign that goes out into people's inboxes. and I've already subscribed to you. So I will find out what you're doing because I'm going to be getting your emails. You might link me right back to your website. And so it becomes your headquarters online, which is always open. But then it gives you the ability to sell in other ways as well with that as your supporting documents, your online portfolio and your professional presentation. Great. I'm thrilled. I'm excited. I ended up just to give you guys a little, fill you in a little bit. I ended up doing a GoFundMe page that ended up generating some money to basically pay for the site, the logo, basically threw out the old URL, got on a new platform, bought the new URL, email, everything.

45:13So it's a brand new start, which I feel I needed. Who donated to the GoFundMe page? Who were you sending that out to? $12 ,000 basically. Friends of mine, people that I know, people that I don't know. Wow. It was great. I did it in two weeks. That's great. I mean, what a show of community support that you have there. And if I were, you've got all of these people who contributed. If you have their email addresses, you need to reach out to them and say, hey, come and visit the site that you helped to support. And I want to give you a special offer. And get them on your list and give them that special offer.

45:49Right now, you're getting pressed. You need to play this up. You need to share this podcast with everyone in the world that you know, because this is going to help tell your story and grab a lot of interest. You're a really interesting photographer. I love your style. And I think you are the perfect person to tell a story about living in New York. Carolyn, can you talk to us a little bit more about how an artist can get attention for their work and get their work in front of people? because I think that's perhaps the greatest struggle that artists have. And I loved what you just said there, but a lot of those things are very hard to do.

46:24It's hard to get press. And so what do you see work and what do you advise Matt and other artists to get their work, not just in front of anybody, but in front of the kinds of people who are going to buy? That's a great question. And that's a question that every artist has. So if we look at how most art is purchased, it's not purchased online. Most art is purchased in person. So that makes it very important for you, Matthew, to get in front of people physically and get your art in front of people physically. Now, you are actually getting press right now. On this podcast. Yes, right. This podcast is press.

47:05And I'm publishing your feature. That's additional press. You need to add that into your CV, into your about page. This is where I'm getting attention. And you need to share that with anyone else who has a blog, who is a reporter, who's connected with a magazine, who might have a radio show, whoever in New York who can help you get more attention. However, I would encourage you to search for ways to get your work either displayed, let's say, in an art center, perhaps at a gallery. I mean, that's a whole not getting into a gallery is a whole nother channel. It's a sales channel. That's consignment and so forth.

47:43But if you can either get into a show, a juried show, or go and do some kind of an event and have people invited to come and just start getting in front of them in person, that is the greatest likelihood you will have of making a sale. When someone has seen your work in person and they're like, I love this. His stuff is so cool. I totally get what he's doing. I love the stories he tells. It just makes me happy. I want to own some of his work. Then every time that you send them an email after that, they will remember the in-person experience. So that's the gold standard right there. And that's why I am pushing you and encouraging you to do some live selling because I feel that it's your best opportunity.

48:29When people meet you in person and you tell them a story about maybe a day in the life or when you went out one morning and some of the things that you did or how a particular photograph was taken. These are the stories that not only interest the press, but they interest people who are listening to what you're saying and who relate to what you're saying. Ultimately, I think your greatest prospect out there is someone who shares your love for New York and that your photography reflects what they care about and what they value because that is what people buy. Everybody has a prospect and some people will never buy from you.

49:09They can't afford what you make. They don't care. Maybe they say, I take my own photography. That's fine. You are searching for those people who are engaged and who respond. And that's why I believe that when you looked at who made comments on certain images on my Instagram feed. That's engagement. Those are people who care. So maybe you want to DM those people who made a comment and say, hey, I've just launched a new site. I've got some, maybe a special offer going on. I'd love for you to see my work. You made this comment. I so appreciate it. That is a personal kind of outreach. You just can't replace that because this is the person who's already shown interest.

49:50The other thing that you can do, and I think we spoke a little bit about this last time, was networking. Anyone who loves and appreciates your art is the perfect person to introduce you to their friends who might also appreciate what you do. And this is where I think you're going to find kind of your tribe and your group who's going to appreciate what you do, and they're going to become your customer base. And you need to have them on a spreadsheet, and you need to have their information, and you need to be reaching out to them every month or so. And that's how you're going to build a business.

50:23I want to ask a question to each of you that are going to build upon themselves. Number one, Carolyn, you had mentioned a couple times now a special offer of some kind, right? Reach out to them and tell them about a special offer. I think it would be helpful to hear you talk about what special offers look like. You've heard, maybe Matt, you can remind us of what your general price point is. So maybe Carolyn can craft a kind of special offer that would be appropriate to be sending out. And then after that, I've now heard her say in many different ways, you have to be in salesman mode. You've got to be seeing people who comment on your Instagram and then reaching out to them by DM and telling them about you.

51:07And you've got to be out there building a network and collecting email addresses and putting them in a spreadsheet and then making sure that you're following up with them on a regular basis. And that is something that makes artists pretty uncomfortable until they get used to it. So Carolyn, I'd love to hear about special offer. And then Matt, I want to hear about how this sits with you and whether or not you have any questions or concerns about getting into sales mode. Okay, let's start with special offer. You are already making a special offer because on your website homepage, it says free shipping.

51:36So you're already enticing people with your, you are, what you are doing is you are removing an objection, which leads to more abandoned shopping carts than anything, which is that people hate to pay shipping. And you've just rolled that into your price. Now, I'm not suggesting that you say, hey, I'm having a giant sale. Everything is half price. No, I'm suggesting that you perhaps reach out to the people who contributed to your GoFundMe page. If you can get their contact information, write them an individual email and tell them from your heart how much you appreciate what they've done for you and that this is giving you an opportunity to become a fine art photographer and make a career.

52:15And this is a life changer. And that because of your great appreciation, you would love for them to own some of your work and you'd love to make them a very special offer that if they select something and I'm going to give you your choice, you want to give them 25 % off. I don't know what your costs are here. You're going to have to figure that out. But I want you to give them a very good offer so that they could just personally order with you without having to have some coupon or something going through your shopping cart. Yes, I would love to have this. If somebody gave you$1 ,000 or$2 ,000, you might want to gift them one of your photographs.

52:53It's just up to you. This is always going to be your own personal call. Now, for those people that maybe made comments and they've just signed up for your mailing list, for instance, you have made an offer to them. If you sign up for my mailing list, I'm going to tell you about special offers. That's one of the incentives to sign up. So what might a special offer be? It may be that you're giving a discount off of a purchase. It may be that if you purchase one, that there's a discount on the second item that you buy. If you order multiple, so you're buying more than one. It may be that if they order a print from you at full price, that you're going to give them a gift of, let's say, six note cards that you've had printed that have your photography on the front.

53:50And you're going to send them that special gift as a freebie that goes along with it. So special offers don't always mean discounts. Sometimes they mean free gift. Sometimes they mean they maybe make a purchase. You're going to be invited to this very special appearance that I'm making. I'd like to include you with this group of VIP fans. And we're going to be meeting at a restaurant in New York. I'd love to have you join us. So you can think of all kinds of creative ways to draw people in a little bit further without feeling that you are discounting your work. And I've certainly written tons of articles about why discounting, especially frequently, is not always the answer.

54:31It can actually work against you. Then people are only buying when you have a sale going on. So I'm not encouraging that. But I do also think that if you are launching something new and you want to get eyes on it, if you're only offering that discount to your mailing list, it's not going out to everyone who may lay eyes on it on social media. But it only becomes a very special offer because they are on your list. And that gives them more of an incentive. All right, Matt. How are you feeling about being a salesperson? I can do it. How's that sound? It's natural in some regards. I've worked in sales pretty much my whole life.

55:08I was always selling someone else's product, not my own. It's easier that way in a way. But there's no emotions attached to it. Now you've got to sell yourself. I've been walking around the city. I've been going into different places. Now that I have this website, it's a lot easier for me to show people what I'm doing versus just having my Instagram page. So I feel that people see my stuff. They're very excited about it. I couldn't be happier. The most positive thing I've heard and the thing that just really makes me happy about what you said a few minutes back was I felt that I needed to make art just to give away or I didn't.

55:46It wasn't really something I could sell. And now you truly realize that your work has value, that you deserve to be paid, and that this is going to support your ability to take pictures, take photographs well into the future. and that you should be recognized as a fine art photographer who has something quite valuable and quite desirable. And it's that confidence, I think, that you can step forward with as you promote yourself to other people and you say, look at what I'm doing. And you're already showing that on Instagram, but I'm willing to bet you when people do look at your photography, they're floored.

56:23They love it. Isn't that right? Yes, you're correct. Thank you very much. I appreciate hearing it. I feel people are connecting with it in a way that I'm very happy that they are. And I'm living the moment. I'm getting some cards made. I made a stamp with my logo on it that's going to go. So all the elements are there. I'm ready to put it out. I'm ready to walk down the street presenting my stuff. I'm going to restaurants, any place that has art on it. I'm speaking to them saying, I could do that. I'll put my stuff on the wall next month. So we're there. It's just about to happen. You were saying, it's going to take me a few months to get to this or to that, which is perfectly fine because you're ready to start marketing your photography now in a certain way.

57:10But you'll be marketing forever. So if you don't have everything going at once, that's fine. Do one thing at a time as you can and learn from your mistakes and find out what doesn't work. And those things you'll be able to avoid in the future. You'll say, That was a bus because I won't go there anymore. I would encourage you to just jot down every idea you have about marketing, whether it has to do with the press, as we talked about, or getting out in front of people, or talking to individuals, or finding opportunities, or literally looking up, is there a festival or a show in New York? There's tons of opportunities to sell in New York.

57:46Write them all down. Maybe make a priority list. What is reasonable for you to be doing right now? Research these things, what makes sense, what needs a lead time, what can you do now, and just start getting out there and finding out what works and double down on what works. Find out what doesn't work. Just like you said, Jason, people don't have the confidence to go out there and promote themselves. But I can tell you that you will get over that and you will get used to talking. In sales, we call it a talk track or a sales. You will know the story to tell about yourself so that you can tell a one-minute story or a 15-second story or a five-minute story.

58:30How can you give a concise couple of sentences that tells someone exactly what it is that you do in a small package that they can take in easily? And if you're working, let's say you're working in a booth at an art festival somewhere on the streets of New York or maybe somewhere else. be able to tell to people immediately and engage them and not only tell them, but also ask them, what is it that drew you to my work? Which one is your favorite? Do you recognize any of these places? And I think that will enable you to have those conversations. And those are the deepest, most valuable sales situations I think you could possibly be in.

59:10I don't know if you agree with me, Jason, but we have one-on-one discussion with someone who's got interest in what you're doing. wow that's the that's where you want to be oh yeah i totally agree and in fact it reminds me of an insight that a friend of mine who is an artist learned years ago his name is kevin and he's an amazing painter and he used to have a studio space in this kind of artist collective in miami beach and so people are constantly coming through and popping in and seeing his work and And they would ask about his work and he would just, he started by just explaining the basics of it.

59:52Oh, this was made with this kind of paint, this kind of paint or this kind of style. And this is what it's a painting of. But he could sense that that wasn't satisfying enough for people, that they wanted something more. And eventually he started telling them stories, the story of how this idea came to be or the story behind this person that he painted or whatever, just a narrative that explained the creation of the thing in front of them. And then they were more engaged. And then they were interested in his story. And then they bought. And what it taught him was that people aren't just buying artwork.

1:00:25They're buying the story and they're buying the artist. And the more in which he leaned into that, the more in which he sold. And that is what I'm hearing you advise, Matt, right now, which is that getting out there isn't just about getting out there. It's not just about getting people to see your work. It's about getting them to experience you. And then the more comfortable you become telling the story of you and telling the story of the thing that you created, the more attached they feel to it. And therefore, the more customers you have. Am I right? Exactly. And frankly, Matthew, I believe that your strongest, your greatest strength, besides your ability to take great photos is your ability to tell stories.

1:01:12And you naturally tell stories every time you post on social media. When we look at your website, every single image that you're selling has a story. You even dated it. It was this day and this is what was happening. And here's why I took this picture. And these are phenomenal. You're set up for success doing this. And I want you to continue with it, but it's a natural, it comes to you naturally. And this is why, even though you think you've been in sales, you've been selling somebody else's work, but telling your own stories is a way to sell without selling. It's a way that's not, well, this is how much it is.

1:01:50And if you can put it here and you could do this with it, and here's why you should buy it. It's, this is the story that I have to tell. And what do you think of this image and how they relate to it? Because it's exactly right. They're going to buy the story from you. And when someone sees one of your photographs in their home, they will tell that story because they'll remember it and they'll tell them about you. And this is how the word of mouth really works. I think you're perfectly set up for it. All right, Matt, final word. How are you feeling? I'm excited. I'm excited. As I said last time, now the real work begins.

1:02:27I say this time, another real work begins. But I'm happy to be at the point I am. I appreciate both of you guys for helping me get here because I don't think it would have taken me a lot longer to get here if I ever would have gotten here. And now I'm going about my business. I feel much more confident. Thank you, Carolyn, for talking about my stories because the stories to me are also just as much of a work as they are of the photographs. I'm living them, and I hope people are happy you experience what I'm doing through the photography and through the story. So thank you guys. Appreciate it very much.

1:03:02Thank you to both of you for spending this time, Carolyn, for sharing your knowledge and wisdom, Matthew, for being the open book and willing to put your art and yourself through a process of improvement and stretching and challenges. And yeah, like you said, now the real work begins. So we're excited to hear where it goes. You can find Matt's photography at mvcphotos.com. That's M-V-C like Matthew V. Cordellese, mvcphotos.com. And you can find Carolyn and her strategies for turning artists into businesses. She has so many courses and articles and also ways to work directly with her. You can find all that at her website, which is artsyshark.com.

1:03:44That's artsy, A-R-T-S-Y, artsyshark.com. Thanks to both of them again so much. This was so cool. And I think we made a real difference in the life of one photographer and hopefully many more. And that's our episode. I would love to hear what you think and maybe even about a problem that you solved. You can find me at my website, jasonfeiffer.com. J-A-S-O-N-F-E-I-F-E-R.com. Also, I have some more useful stuff for you. I write a newsletter about how to future-proof yourself and become more adaptable and optimistic. I would love for you to sign up. It is at jasonpfeiffer.bulletin.com. Also, check out my other podcast.

1:04:27It's called Build for Tomorrow. In each episode, I take on some belief that we have that holds us back from progress and show you why it is not as bad as you think. Problem Solvers is a production of Entrepreneur Media and comes out every Monday morning, so make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss an episode. Thanks to Deepa Shah for production. My name is Jason Pfeiffer. See you next week.