How to Speak and Be Truly Understood

0:00From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show in which entrepreneurs do what entrepreneurs do best, solve unexpected problems in their business. We were completely wrong. And I'm just like, it's not selling. It was like, we have to start from scratch. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

0:22A few months ago, I was at a bar at a resort after speaking at an event, and I got introduced to Chris Voss. Maybe you know Chris Voss's name. He is an incredibly accomplished negotiation expert, former FBI hostage negotiator. and he was with a number of very interesting people, one of whom introduced himself to me as Chris Voss's tone coach, which honestly I had never heard of. A tone coach? So I train tonal influence. That is the tone coach in question. His name is Marshall Jones. We chatted for a while at the bar and then said, let's stay in touch. And actually, you sound so interesting. Come on my podcast, which he was happy to do.

1:03And so here we are. And maybe you're wondering, as I was, what on earth does it mean to train tonal influence? What we say is very important, but how we say it is what is received and understood. And I make sure that we mean what we say and we mean how we said it, no matter what the context. Which is so interesting, right? It's not just a matter of the words that you say. It's making sure that you're saying them in a way that can really be understood. And I wanted to dig into that more, which is what we're going to do in this episode of Problem Solvers. Marshall, by the way, also has a new book.

1:46It's called Tonal Influence, a guide to listen better, speak clearer, and set the tone. You can find that on Amazon. And on this episode, we are going to dig into tone, how to set it, what it means, and how to make sure that people really understand what you are saying. Coming up after the break. Hey, do you want to talk to me? That's a real question. Do you want to talk to me? Because I am available to talk and people reach out to me all the time asking for advice on communication or storytelling or writing or branding or just any kind of approach to business. And they do it on a platform called Intro.

2:31Intro is a platform where you can find the expert that you need to talk to right now and then book them right in the app. And yeah, that includes me. You can find me on intro at intro.co slash Jason Pfeiffer. Just go to intro.co slash Jason Pfeiffer. And you can book me for 15 or 30 minute sessions where we will dig into whatever it is that you are wrestling with. I absolutely love talking to people on intro because it's just fascinating people, fascinating conversations and great solutions. So see you there. Again, intro.co slash Jason Pfeiffer, J-A-S-O-N-F-E-I-F-E-R. All right, we're back talking with Marshall Jones, tonal coach and also author of the new book, Tonal Influence, which at the very end of the episode, stay tuned because I'm going to play a very cool audio trailer for that book.

3:30All right, but let's dig into it. what I started by talking with Marshall about was, what exactly is tone? Like, how are we to understand the distinction between the words coming out of our mouths and making sure that we're saying them in a way that people really understand? What I mean by tonal influence is, you're going to say a bunch of words, and they're going to be the words that the other person needs to hear. But the way that those words are said determines how those words are received. And in most of these environments where the tone, right, like that word is sort of like, oh, you know, we say something like set the tone and it sounds nice.

4:14And we kind of have a base understanding of what that means. But I'm like, no, well, what is the tone? The tone is a paralinguistic information that the human voice carries when it says something. And when you set the tone, it's not just about the sound of your voice when you open your mouth. You set the tone by the way that you carry yourself, even as a listener, because all of that information is being processed. You can tell when you're on the phone with someone and you can tell when they're distracted. Isn't that interesting? Like when you're like, you just kind of know by the sound of their voice that they're distracted or doing something else.

4:49or the way someone shows up into a meeting on video or in person, very quickly we assess, we hear, we sense where they are and where they're coming from. Now this information is very valuable because it can be the decision between trying to plow through a sales call versus being able to recognize that it appears that there's something that's disturbing you. And you don't even have to wait for them to say anything, you just notice. And when you're able to become aware of these things, your conversational dynamics become a bit more acute. The examples that you gave there are really interesting because you used a few examples in which somebody can hear something that someone is experiencing.

5:34They are distracted. They are rushed. And that is because the person is experiencing that and it's coming through in their voice. And I imagine the person who is speaking, who is rushed, who is distracted, is not aware that they're communicating that, but they're also not being intentional about how they're communicating. And maybe they don't realize that they can be intentional about how they communicate. And it makes me wonder if the first big revelation that you need to provide the clients that you work with, is that how they sound is more controllable than they think. Is that right? Absolutely.

6:14That's on the money. One of the very first things that becomes important is that people hear what you're thinking. There was a Disney animator, the animator for Tarzan. He said, do not animate what the character is doing. Animate what the character is thinking. And the truth is, is that your voice animates what you're thinking and we hear it. So, And we have to hear it because the sounds that we process are important for our survival and safety. So there's a certain acuity to subtle nuances and shifts and changes. We may not be able to identify what it is or why it's going on, but we hear and we sense something's off.

6:57And that's just enough for the mind to start to wander about, well, what is that? Then the mind starts to think someone's listening to you. And they're like, they're not even listening to what you're saying anymore. They're now paying attention to what is that undertone? And they're investigating. And so you're giving them another task because there's a misalignment between the tone of what you're saying and what you're saying. How do you begin to control that? So there's two transmissions in the body then as it relates to how we move. So you have your manual and your automatic controls. Now, one of the very first things that people focus on a lot when it comes to any form of self-regulation is the breathing.

7:40They say, hey, slow your breathing down, calm down, count or something. And quite frankly, it is a very great place to begin. And one of the things that I introduced to my clients is in part of like a module zero, if you will, is the connection of the hands to the breath. So once you take manual control of your breathing, that system is activated and the hands actually become a part of the respiratory cycle in a way where when you inhale, the hands open up or rather the excitability of the muscles that open the fingers get active. And then when we exhale, the muscles that close, right, they get a little active.

8:24So one of the very first things I say, okay, look, you want to manually get so rooted in your breath cycle, not only just inhaling and exhaling through the nose or anything like that. But when I teach square breathing, which is box breathing, inhale, hold, exhale, hold. So I train my clients to, and you can try this now, but you inhale, you let the fingers open, you hold, allow the fingers to stay open, you exhale, close the fingers gently, and then keeping air out of the body, you hold, and then you inhale and allow the hands to synchronize with this process. And what this is doing, there's two things that are happening.

9:08The very first thing is that the respiratory pattern that Navy SEALs use or military people use to sleep in a war zone is activated. But this is also the same breathing cycle that babies use. When they say breathe like a baby, they don't... Just listening to that sounds like I'm stressed out, doesn't it? So there's a natural pause. And when we go into that pause, we're going back into that breathing cycle. And this is the beginning of, hey, I'm in my body. I'm aware of where I am. I'm taking control of my faculties and taking control of these life-giving faculties gives you a bit more edge to then proceed with what you'll do next.

9:48That was a unexpected answer. And the reason it was unexpected is because I thought you were going to talk to me about how people speak, but you did not. You talked about something more fundamental. Is the argument that you're making to clients and through these kinds of things that to To be more intentional and more in control of how you speak is not just a matter of thinking about how the words come out of your mouth, but how you're controlling and carrying your whole body. Absolutely. Because it's a two-way street. The way that you speak is most likely the way that you listen. So you have someone who's like, which is really cool because it's fun when you listen to people who talk really fast.

10:34you also know that they're hearing you at that speed as well so where we might say oh you're cutting me off it's like no they've already the way that they're sending out that data they're taking it in i relate they've already come to the conclusion and uh that can be misread as someone being rude but what we're doing is is that we're you know on this information highway and the way that you present yourself when you start talking. And this is when people are like, oh, you know, I feel so comfortable with this person. Most likely it's because they have a speaking style that sounds like there's a bit of room for them to slowly send information back, right?

11:15If I'm going to be slow and deliberate with you, then it's an indicator that I would be patient when it's your turn. And if I go really quick, it's like, you better get to the point as fast as I'm giving you the point or else I'm tuning you out. So what I'm inviting people to do by becoming aware, one, okay, well, where am I with the breath? There is a sense of like, well, I'm not just a sender. I'm also a receiver in the communication, which goes back to the original question you asked. Why do I not say I'm a speaking coach? Because that's only one direction. If I said, oh, I'm a speaker's coach and I've worked with public speakers.

11:56That's a monologous kind of communication where it doesn't really matter what they're doing. It's like, am I rocking right now? Do I have the great speech? Am I telling fantastic stories? Do I have the cadence and all this stuff? And I'm capable of teaching someone how to do that. But tonal influence is more dialogue as well as monologue, where you are setting the tone for how people will feel when it's their turn to give you information. Hmm. Hmm. Tell me more about that. That's a very interesting thought, how people will feel when it's their turn to give you information. I've never thought about that particular moment in an interaction.

12:37Absolutely. Take me into it. Sure. The people go and they have their friends that they talk to, or they have people that they seek advice from. And usually those decisions are made based on their capacity to listen, based on their pre-qualified way of allowing another person to say whatever it is they have to say, distill it, give it back in a way that's useful for them. Most of the time when we're very enthusiastic or maybe just super like aggressive about our communication, we forget that we are now we are creating an environment for that other person to feel whether or not they are safe in their response.

13:23can they actually say the truth? Like, for example, if you're doing like interrogation, one of the things that they work on is the idea of avoiding putting the person in any mode of thinking that will make them feel like, oh man, I'm about to go to jail for a long time. Even if they will, in order to get a confession, they have to feel so comfortable that their dignity will be preserved, that they're okay with admitting to whatever heinous thing that they have been accused of, but admit to it so willingly because the environment was created for them to feel like they are human. They are not. I mean, this is an extreme example, right?

14:03Where, where the truth is a very expensive thing, but let's go with a sales call. You go into your call, you're pitching yourself and you're like, boom, boom, boom. And in your mind, you might be killing it because you've done this pitch over and over. Whiz bang. People are always impressed. that worked last week. But because of the context with which you're speaking or maybe something you missed, that person, when they respond to you, they're going to respond based on the environment that you've set up for them. And if you came on too strong, you turn them off. And then now when it's their turn, they're going to give you just as much as they are comfortable based on the environment you've created.

14:47So to conclude this idea, we set the table on both ends. It's like, all right, cool. Give them your words. And depending on how you've set that up, when it's their turn to put their words there, you would have laid the groundwork. And that's what it means to set the tone. This is a show called Problem Solvers. And so I love framing things in terms of what are some of the most common things that people are doing wrong so that we can try to identify ways to do right. We've talked about some of the foundations of the work that you do and the way that people can understand how to communicate in a more intentional way.

15:30And particularly to do it when they're one-on-one or they're speaking to people who are going to speak back to them as soon as they stop talking. So take it to me from that perspective, maybe think about some clients that you've worked with and some of the common mistakes that you see them making and some of the big fixes that make all the difference. I'll give you a couple, because this goes back into context. And sometimes context is, it's like, it takes a second to zoom out and discover. I was working with a gentleman who leads a powerful agency in the design field. And he's a sharpshooter, gives his critical feedback, boom, boom, boom.

16:12And one of the challenges that he brought forward was, you know, I would do this, but then I had an office, like a little kitchen area where we were in the design room, we said what we said. But then in this little room over coffee, you know, we can talk and there's this human connection. So this was a context challenge over the pandemic because now, pew, pew, pew, sharpshooting, you're on the Zoom, click, end meeting. This person's in their home now, in the middle of lockdown. There is no kitchen. There is no environment. And so now the context of critique has changed. And so what worked in the office is not going to work here.

16:51And there was an inter agency challenge that needed to be overcome. And this is a very well-meaning communicator. Person is fantastic at it. So it wasn't like a personality challenge or anything. It was, oh, I don't understand. Like, why is this not working? And what can I do differently in this new environment that I have to communicate through, right? And so we worked on techniques within the framework of this environment where you're on a screen, when your voice is the only thing that carries you, how can you still deliver on criticisms or critiques, construction and all those things, and still maintain the relationships that are important to you in a very creative field, right?

17:33Like certain fields require certain buoyancy of emotion to get done. So creative agencies are one of those where, you know, versus like brick lane, right? It's like, we don't really need to be in your feelings to lay a brick. It's like you lay it down here, the dimensions. And so that's one example of a context, bringing contextual awareness of the environment and then adjusting based on that context. Another example I'll give you is I was working with a hedge fund where they wanted to acquire the software developer. They wanted to just absorb the company instead of having them contracted. And this is millions of dollars on the line.

18:13And he goes and he's talking to me about this and he's one of those alpha just, well, you don't get to certain levels within a hedge fund by like throwing balloons in the air, right? This is exactly who you imagine being at a very large hedge fund. So he's like, he's, he's his body language, everything about how he's communicating is all over Zoom. Meanwhile, he's letting me know, the guy's saying to him, he's like, I'm losing sleep at night and I'm really nervous and all that. And I said, well, well, you're scaring him. It doesn't matter how much money's on the table. The way that you're content to him, you are like, rah.

18:54And so even though he's in his office on camera and the other person's at their home or wherever they're remote working from. All of that intensity is audible. And you're like, what's wrong with you? This is a great deal. For someone who's telling you they're losing sleep, that's not creating an environment where they would feel safe putting their words on the table when it's their turn. So we had to down-regulate his communication, give him some techniques to be able to listen and not take offense to what's being said if it's not to his liking. It's because you just want to get the information, but there's an embodiment to just like, all right, let it roll off the back.

19:39And what was that? Two weeks later, he gets a call from his partner and he's like, I don't know what you said or how you said it, but that's what got us over the line. So those would be two examples. Those are great. I love those. the second example reminds me of something that I have not exactly intentionally taught myself to do, but I have found that I do it. And I'm curious to tell you about it. And you tell me if it's smart. So what I have found is that I started to naturally match the energy and cadence of someone who I am talking to. Not totally. I'm not mimicking them. There are versions of me, for example, that talk like this, which is really me reacting to you, Marshall.

20:33You are a slower, more intentional speaker. And so I have naturally spoken to you in my version of that cadence. but if we got on the phone and you were a very fast talker and you were very high energy, I would have matched that. And I find that I do that. I do it in interviews and I do it conversationally. And part of me thinks this is a good instinct that I have developed because it puts people at ease and it matches however they pace themselves and process things. But then I wonder, maybe this is a bad thing because maybe I'm not being as intentional as I should about where I am and I should bring people to me in my style.

21:29The story that you told reminds me a little of that because you had this hedge fund guy who just clearly was not reading the room at all. And what you had him do was not exactly mimic the style of the person who he was speaking to, but at least to be aware of it and then to build that awareness into what he is doing. What do you make of what I do? Well, the very first thing I'll say is this. When we visit foreign countries, if we don't speak the language, one of the very first things that we'll subconsciously do is mimic the accent. Some people will find this. They think that it's offensive. But let's give you an example.

22:09Here's a guitar. now with a guitar you can play jazz you can play blues you can play rock hip-hop whatever it is those are different styles same instrument but depending on the choices of cadences and slides and scales and all these different things you'll get a different style of music the way that people speak is sort of the musical aspect of things it's the genre right it's the the metal or the the jazz or whatever have you. And when you use your voice as an instrument, you do your best to move within that cadence. It's like if you played, let's say you play guitar all your life, and you played bluegrass, and you're like, man, there's a, I don't know, like an indie rock band comes to town.

22:57And they're like, oh, we need a guitarist. There's going to be a certain adapting to the style of playing that you would have to do to blend in and merge. And when we're communicating to create harmony, which is a term that people like to use when they talk about like, oh, you know, we found harmony, which sounds very abstract and like new agey, if you will, right? But if we were to be very literal about it, harmony in music is just when all of these sounds are cohesive enough to make this music together. There's enough variance and substance to have fun, but there's something that gels us together.

23:34When you decide to match, to tone match, What you're doing is you are putting yourself in a place where you're in the rhythm of where they are sonically, which gives you an opportunity to sample their thinking. Because once you bring that energy, right, there's a certain cognitive shift in how you're communicating now. Like, oh, OK, cool. This brings out a different kind of thing. And that's what they're doing. And when you're able to do that, you have one of two choices. this is where like certain things where you realize like you decide whether you set the tone or tone is set for you because if you tone match you can then lead where you want to go right so it's more about when they say meet someone where they are sometimes it can be just as simple as matching the tone and once there's enough tone matching that happens you're then able to as long as you keep your control and your attention, which is why you would want to have that sense of control and attention, you can dial it.

24:39Next thing you know, your counterpart is where you want them to be for you. But they have to feel led there because you didn't just assert your vocal tone into the situation, which happens all the time, like when people try to dominate a discussion. So what you've mastered and you've done many episodes of this podcast and you've spoken across the world to talk to many people across many different industries and demographics about the challenges that they have. And so you come in and you're like, you have an ear that's tuned in, like we tune in and then I'm going to bring you to where I need you so that you can hear the information I have for you.

25:20So that's a very valuable skill. I would continue to do it. Thank you. Marshall, this is fascinating. I could talk to you about this for a very long time, but my goal is to keep the podcast short. So instead, I'm going to ask you to give someone something to think about right now. We've talked about a lot, a lot of things people can do, a lot of ways that people can approach their interactions differently, but maybe as a starter point for self-reflection for people to think about the tone that they are using, something actionable that they can do. What's a good starting point? What should somebody be listening for or catching themselves in as soon as this episode stops?

26:04The first thing that I would invite anyone to do is when you hear yourself, record yourself reading something that you care about, like a Rita short home or something, and then ask yourself, what would someone who heard you speak think about how you would listen to them? Hmm. Hmm. That's an interesting question. And what that does, or what it invites, is this subtle awareness of, hmm, does this vocalization sound like another person would feel that I would listen to them? Or, how does this vocalization suggest that I do listen? Because I don't want everyone to think that everyone in the world has a sound like Morgan Freeman or something in order to be a great communicator.

27:00That's not it. But what you want to be able to recognize is, let's say you do have, if someone says to you, hey, you know, I don't think you listen to me. You're like, okay, well, let's just, let's hear ourselves. How are we speaking? Because if we have a certain accelerated communication or we have frustration in our voice, all of these things, what message does that send to the other person about how you'll receive them? And let that one thing guide any shifts that you intend to make. Okay, that was supposed to be the last question, but I just have to ask a follow-up to what you just said, which is, can you give me some tangible things for someone to be listening for?

27:35I love the question of what you just asked someone to listen for but i understand frustration i understand rushed but what does good sound like and what does bad sound like if we're talking about talking in a way that communicates to people that we can also listen so you know one of the things so let's go with this when you okay because this would be something to be like a practice and exercise that can be done when you're speaking, not speaking, when you're just hanging around. I want you to make it your business to observe people as if they were on mute. What do you notice? Because the entire body is communicating.

28:29And I want to take it sort of like a different color of body language, right? Because usually when body language is discussed, it's like these snapshots and moments and sort of still images. But I want you to think about it like a motion picture. Observe the world around you when you watch movies and films. Start to look at what you're, start to look at what you're seeing and listen as if they are on mute, that it's that the words are not leaving their mouth. You're going to hear them, of course, but you'll start to see these patterns, these variances of how people kind of get into their form, you know, you'll start to notice like, huh, the subtle fidgets, the subtle, the subtle shifts of weight, you start to gain and gather way more information and context about what's about to happen.