Kevin Smith Makes Movies. But Something Else Made Him Famous.

11:13Jason:In college? In college. All right. So. Where do you go? I'm not going to tell you because you'll know where this is going. Okay. And so I rounded up a ton of my friends and we went to the student speakers bureau meeting where some students were controlling the budget for the year. And with the specific intent of voting as a block to spend the entire year's budget bringing you to Clark University. Oh my God. And it just so happened that while we booked you, you were filming An Evening with Kevin Smith. That's one of the school stops on An Evening With. That's right. That's wild. So you show up.

11:55Jason:Yes. And you're just by yourself. You just drove to campus. Yeah, because you guys weren't far, man.

11:59Kevin Smith:Where is Clark again?

12:00Jason:In Worcester, Massachusetts. So it's like I was able to drive. Right. So you show up. You came backstage. You took photos with every kid that wanted it. And then you went out. Then I introduced you, and I remember I gave this whole thing about some version of what I'm telling you now, I suppose. And I used this line that only would come out of me at age 19 or something, which was, fuck Benjamin Franklin, Kevin Smith is the self-made man. And then you came out and you're like, Benjamin Franklin is the self-made man. But then you answered questions for like five hours. I mean, until literally nobody had a question anymore.

12:35Jason:I've never seen anything like it.

12:37Kevin Smith:I used to like watching the audience empty it was like a Springsteen concert it was like who's going to break first the artist or the audience and we would get down to less than half the crowd like we'd start full capacity we'd be down to less than half the crowd and it would be down to boxers or briefs like that type of question but the philosophy was like I have no I'm here I have nowhere else to go and they want to know it's not a room full of people going why are you such a fuckhole? You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I gotta defend myself. They're all saying nice things and they're laughing with me and at me and stuff.

13:15Kevin Smith:And like, so that was, oh, I love that period.

13:17Jason:There's more conversation coming, but first it's time to pause and play a game. We're playing Tax Trivia brought to you by TurboTax. I'm gonna ask a question and then you're gonna get the answer later in the episode. This is an interesting question. I have to say the answer has shocked me. So here it is. do you know the top three cities in america where dog walking side gigs are in the highest demand and this is a tax trivia question because side gigs create complicated taxes all right think about it the top three cities in america where dog walking side gigs are in highest demand you'll get the answer later in the episode and learn more about filing your taxes with intuit turbo tax visit turbotax.intuit.com So you spoke for five hours and then you and I just walked back to your car, which remains a surreal moment to me.

14:13Jason:You know, like I had done this thing to bring you to campus and I just it's just the two of us. And the parking lot is empty and it's late and everyone's exhausted and they've gone home. And you drove away. And I had a I had the same thought that you are articulating with Peter Marshall, which is some version of if I am ever in a position where people give a shit about what I have to say. I am going to be so fucking gracious about that. And now, Kevin, I am.

14:41Kevin Smith:The trickle down of that is beautiful, man. That's beautiful. Like, there's so many ways to be. Once you're given a platform, if you're lucky enough to get it, as people work hard for it, if you're lucky enough to have a platform, and that, you know, we live in a content-generated culture now where everybody could have a platform. But if you're lucky enough to get a platform where a bunch of people are listening to you don't treat people like shit don't like there was a time maybe and there's a school of thought like you know in the 80s people acted larger than life and like you know it baffled me i've worked with some icons of the 80s over the course of my career and there's no connectivity with the audience yeah and not nearly as much appreciation as there should be as well considering it's like there's your boss like that's the thing i understood quickly once i got into it like it ain't miramax it ain't universal who's the boss is the audience if they're buying tickets man if you work for the audience they say you never work a day in your life and so when you meet the boss at any fucking job you're not like hey fucko you know here's the 10 things that are wrong about you you're fucking like hey how are you yeah great to meet you great and you're kiss You're happy to have the job.

15:55Kevin Smith:So it makes sense that whenever you meet the audience, as the artist, be the same fucking way, at least to me.

16:01Jason:And it's the easiest thing in the world. It costs nothing. It costs nothing. And I don't understand, you know what I still do? I still reply, I mean, look, at some point, there's a scale and you're not able to do that. I'm not at that yet. I reply to every email, I reply to every DM. And what I hear from people years later is, oh, I bought that thing of yours because three years ago you replied to this DM and I didn't think you were going to do it. It's the easiest thing in the world to do and I don't understand why people don't do it and I appreciate you so much.

16:29Kevin Smith:Now they teach it as part of marketing. And we're in an interesting entrepreneurial time. Now more than ever, I think people are going to be interested in everything you have to say because as we slowly realize that human beings are being shut out of the workforce thanks to AI, it's thanks to the very thing they've built, people are starting to understand that it's like the old way doesn't work anymore, I might as well bet on myself. We are entering a very entrepreneurial cultural period of human development because there's no choice anymore. Choice is being limited. You can't just go out and get a job.

17:06Kevin Smith:You can't even just go out and get a fucking government job anymore. My old man was, God bless him, worked for the government. He worked for the post office and he passed away 23 years ago, but he had such good insurance. It kept my mom alive until she was 80 years old and she was still under his insurance. You can't get those jobs and you can't get that kind of fucking coverage anymore. So I watched TikTok and I wish I had saved it, man. And I keep telling the story, but I'll try to, I'm sure people can track it down based on the description. There's a gentleman who was like, I'm out of work.

17:35Kevin Smith:I think it was like 20 months, he said. And he was like, I've been working. This is the first time I've been out of a job since I was 12 years old. He's been working since then. I was in the military. I did 12, 20 years in the military. I've got three degrees, including a master's and a fucking PhD. he said i was laid off my job i instantly sent out 10 000 resumes said i've heard back from only three places and you know the dude was stating his case about like i'm fucking doing the work and it's not there his summation blew my hair back he goes in a world where i can't even get a job at fucking starbucks he's going there's no point for you to not chase your dreams anymore He's going, you have just as much a chance of your dream idea working out As you do of just getting a normal ass fucking Mick job now So now the option's limited When I took my swing with clerks That was because I didn't want to work for some other asshole You know, I knew I didn't have that type of I worked for other people for years and I was terrible at it You know, they would tell me, like, you're lazy and shit So I don't want to work for some other asshole The idea of working for myself seemed appealing The lesson I learned tacitly from my father as he worked at the post office my whole young life and shit he hated his job he did it because he didn't care about personal fulfillment at the job career he wasn't like us where it's just like i gotta feel good about what i do he was just like i just need a job so i could pay for what i want in life which is his wife and his fucking kids but because of that he was like the sitcom version of a father who's like time to make the donuts he hated going to that fucking job and i told this story many times it's important to communicate man this motherfucker lived in fear of a phone call man this phone call about calling out of work whenever my dad wanted to take out of work take off of work he called tell my mom he's like can you please call in for me and my mom would be like all right i'll call in and the whole house had to shut up my father was like everyone be quiet they go into the bedroom and shit make a phone call and come out and i knew he wasn't getting blown it was too quick so it really was a phone call and you couldn't pick up the phone they were all clear we had to freeze as if like the fucking jerry's might drop bombs in the night or something like that and so once the phone call once was made he comes out of his room and he's a different person he's our father again he's not this guy who's in fear of going to work and shit my whole life i see this phone call and the effect like please make the call and the call is made and ah he gets to relax and the older he got the more he started calling out of work and you know he'd had a heart attack he had the stroke and that eventually took him out of the workforce but like the older he got he's been working since he was 13 he won't work anymore and stuff and i I was the youngest kid and I was working at this point at the convenience store.

20:13Kevin Smith:So I think he felt like, I don't have to, I could kind of ease up. I could slow up and stuff, but it would get to the point where it irritate my mom because he would take off four days in a week and only go to work one day. So my mom got to a place where she's like, I ain't calling for you. She's like, if you want to call out of work, you call out, but I'm not making this call anymore. And my father was desperate. He couldn't make this call himself. So he turns to me, he goes, will you make this call? And I was like, Oh my God. Yes. Like I want to be involved. This is family mythology. This call is like fucking Smaug is protecting this fucking call.

20:44Kevin Smith:And I'm going to see the treasure room and shit like that. So he brings me into the room. And I have never rehearsed an actor as much as he rehearsed me to make this fucking phone call. He's like, you're going to say this. They're going to say this. You say this. Do not say anything else unless they ask you a question. If they ask you a question, you look at me and I'll listen. And I'll mouth the question to you and you say it back to him. But don't respond until I tell you. We were, so like we were calling the government or some sort of shit. And then we make the phone call. And this is exactly, I'm not exaggerating.

21:15Kevin Smith:This is exactly how the phone call went. They answer, they go, dispatch. And I go, yes, Don Smith won't be in tonight. And they go, okay, click. And that was it.

21:23Jason:That's the call.

21:24Kevin Smith:And my dad goes, what'd they say? And I was like, well, you heard them. They said nothing. And he goes, it's all right? I said, it's all right. He goes, oh, thank you. And he was so fucking happy and shit like that. and I remember thinking I can't live like that I couldn't be ruled by being that scared

21:39Jason:so out of your control

21:40Kevin Smith:and being so terrified so scared like not a different person where he's like he was slapping us around and once he was off of work he was happy it wasn't like it wasn't extremes like an addict but it was sad to watch and not like I pity this man but sad to see the effect that this fucking work cat on him and if I could just make this phone call and shit and I remember at a young age being like I'd rather I'm gonna try to write for Saturday Night Live like I'm gonna try and in that much I'm an utter failure but that it was even as a young age in high school I wasn't like you know I'm gonna go to college and then get a good job like it was always about like I'm gonna write for SNL or I'm gonna do this it wasn't movies because that seemed way out of my league even you know Being on SNL wasn't a thing.

22:29Kevin Smith:Just writing for it seemed like I could write jokes. I'd written some sketches. I thought I was funny. But like the idea of making a movie, that wouldn't occur to me until I saw somebody else do. I saw Richard Linklater do it with Slacker. And then suddenly I was like, oh, wait. Like if this counts as a movie, I want to make a movie too. I view that as, I say I viewed it with a mixture of awe and arrogance. All because I've never seen a movie like that before and arrogance because I thought that like, oh, well, now that makes it easier for me. And yet somehow it fucking worked.

22:56Jason:All right, quick break to pick up on something we did earlier in the episode where we played Tax Trivia brought to you by TurboTax. And the question was, what are the top three cities in America where dog walking side gigs are in the highest demand? Here we go. Number three, not going to be that surprising, New York City. That's where I live. Lots of dogs, lots of walking. Number two, Chattanooga, Tennessee. I did not see that coming. And the number one city in the U.S. where dog walkers are in the highest demand is Boston, Massachusetts. Well, whether you guess the answers or not, you can learn more about filing your taxes with Intuit TurboTax.

23:39Jason:Just visit turbotax.intuit.com.

23:43Kevin Smith:I think I would have been out of this business a long time ago were it not for the fact that I feed the audience.

23:50Jason:Yeah.

23:50Kevin Smith:And it wasn't intentional. It wasn't me going like, let me groom these fuckers. It was just, oh, I get to talk to the people, buy tickets. And that creates what they now call brand loyalty. Yes. And I exist in this direct-to-consumer culture that we didn't call it that back then. And it wasn't like, I'm not being facetious, like we just called it being nice to the fans. But it was a part of the business. I became cognizant early on that it's like, oh well I can invite them to a vulgar-thon they'll all buy 69 tickets to watch movies they've seen before I don't even have to leave my town I could have them come here and stuff and so I learned early on like this is this is transactional relationship they'll give me their dimes all you got to give them is their time your time and I was more than happy to do that like it wasn't hard because it was like I'm gonna spend time with them anyway because I want to know what make some tick why they like my shit and whatnot and so i learned to have this whole other um economy outside of what i do for a living outside of being a director and i realized they can take directing away a studio can a studio can choose not to let you direct a movie they can't take directing away i'm a guy who started on his own credit cards i could finish on my own credit cards if i had to and stuff but when you're in the system they could say no so having something to pivot to being salesman anyway i come from sales culture i worked at convenience stores being able to sell here's an action figure of silent bob here's a you know a fucking poster signed from one of the movies has kept my career going it's given me longevity not the movies man this aspect of it as well and now everyone swims in the same stream like i saw this video i saw a TikTok of Lizzo.

25:36Kevin Smith:And I was scrolling, it was in my timeline, and she's like doing a direct-to-camera thing. And she's going, if you're an artist, if you're a songwriter, a singer, a musician, stop trying to get a record deal. It's stupid. There's no point. She's like, this is what you gotta do. And I was like, right on. She cracked the code and I'm listening. And she goes, first you build yourself a website where people can come find you. You put your work up on YouTube and all these other social media outlets. Then you start working direct-to-consumer. You sell directly to them. And I was like, oh, all right.

26:07Kevin Smith:I can learn nothing here because this is what I do for a living. This is how I survive. But it's revelatory for other people. And I'm glad. And I'm not one of these people that's like, where you been? I'm happy that people are figuring it out. Everybody has some secret sauce. Everybody has something that somebody else needs, whether it's experiential, whether it's something tactile that they need to hold, something they could wear, something they could share. we're going back to a barter culture you know what i'm saying before governments got involved in regulated currency we're about to watch currency explode in front of our faces and whatnot we're going to get back to a barter culture and it's happening now where it's just like well what can you do for me and what can i do for you and you got to start thinking i'm not talking about like you could blow me there's that's existing forever but that helps as well yeah but it's like finding out that special talent you got and people like i got no fucking talent bullshit everybody has something to bring to the fucking table and everybody has something somebody else needs that's how this whole fucking thing is designed and i'm not like a god person anymore i did make dogma and that's probably why i'm not a god person anymore but i do believe in intelligent design and i think we're all put together and we're all very different because we all have the fucking answers for each other we're all in this together the only way we get out of this is by depending on one another.

27:28Kevin Smith:And so, you know, that information now in this, there was a time you could give it away for free. Now you got to monetize it because fucking like nobody can get a job anyway. So figure out what you could bring to the table and fucking go for it kids. Don't wait. Don't sit there and dream. Don't sit there. Here's what happens. People get good ideas and they're fire ideas, but they don't follow them because the second voice that follows This first voice is inspiration. It's like, you could, you should, you should try. You know it doesn't exist. The reason you're irritated by this thing is because it doesn't exist and you know it should exist and you could bring it into existence.

28:04Kevin Smith:That's the important voice. Seize that, ride that all the way to success. Or not even success, and it depends on what your idea of success is, but just making a thing that didn't exist before is success. Don't listen to the second voice. The second voice is like, ah. Right.

28:20Jason:There are all sorts of reasons why this isn't going to work, why somebody's not going to like this.

28:24Kevin Smith:Somebody would have done that if this would have worked before. Fuck that voice, man. Just what they say, feed the right wolf. Feed that fucking first wolf because it will take you fucking far. Inspiration and passion, these aren't just art school fucking figures of speech in terms of art. They matter in the fucking recipe. Like you need that because that's what separates you from the people who aren't going to take it the next step. That's why you get to be the first because there believe me you have not had an idea that somebody else has not had The difference is you're going to take it to completion.

29:00Kevin Smith:You're gonna bring it into reality You're gonna take whimsy and make it fucking reality That's what an entrepreneur does and it's the closest thing to fucking magic that exists Taking words and making it into a physical form something that can be purchased owned bought worn or something like that We don't have real magic in the world, kids. Like fucking, you know, Harry Potter is a wonderful fucking story, but alchemy does not fucking exist. But it does exist for the entrepreneur who takes a fucking idea, an idea, something you can't even fucking touch, and turns it into actual gold, turns it into a way to heat their home, to put clothes on their fucking back, man.

29:39Like that's important.

29:41Kevin Smith:And now more than ever it's important. It's something that I used to be a fan of doing, and it made the difference in my life and stuff. And I've been proselytizing for it ever since. But now you don't have the luxury of going like, yeah, that sounds fun. Do it. Like if you've got an idea, fucking do it before somebody else does it first. Because we're getting to that place where everybody is going to start fucking stepping up to the table. Because what choices do they have?

30:05Jason:Yeah. And that was beautiful. Thank you. I figured this was the forum. This was definitely the forum. That is going to resonate with a lot of people. and I just love everything. Can I add one more thing to that? Please, go.

30:17Kevin Smith:And if you're successful, let me wet my beak a little. If those words drove you toward your fortune, just a little taste of it. I realize my whole life I've been giving shit out for free that Tony Robbins sells.

30:31Jason:Oh, he sells for a lot of money. A lot of fucking money, man. A lot of money.

30:34Kevin Smith:You know what? Before there was a Tony Robbins, I went to a thing long back in the day, 60s, 70s, used to be this self-help awareness fucking seminar program called EST, Earhart Seminar Training. And that guy wound up going to jail, I think, Warren Earhart. But his technology, he called it, like the you can do things, he sold to an organization called Landmark and Landmark Education. And they had these things called the Landmark Forum. So in 19, my sister, she used to go to them and stuff. Some people consider them culty and shit, but I'd never been to a Tony Robbins thing, but they sound exactly like a Tony Robbins thing.

31:10Kevin Smith:Their whole thing is in three days, we'll break and remake you. And so I, and my sister would always be like, you should go to this. I'd be like, no, I ain't into that. When I was making clerks, I was at my absolute lowest, right? Because I spent all this money on my credit cards. I didn't know if I was going to work. I was broken up with my high school girlfriend and shit like that. And I didn't know, I was, I moved out of my parents' house. I was 23. That was the first time I did. And so my sister hit me at a time where I was like, you know what? Like, she was like, well, you should really go to the forum.

31:38Kevin Smith:I was like, all right, I'll try. And I went because she paid for it. And they weren't wrong. They broke me and remade me in three days. And a lot of it is that shit that Tony Robbins sells. It's just self-actualization. Absolutely. It's not revolutionary. It's, you know, who was it? Somebody, Jimmy James on news radio once said, I pay an actor to paraphrase the opening monologue from Patton. Like that's an inspiration. That's what those people kind of do. Sure. So those cats are smarter than me. because they know how to charge for it. They're like, oh, I got the secret, but you give me 150 bucks and spend three days with me.

32:16Kevin Smith:I don't know if it's a secret, and that's the thing. I've never said that I've had the secret, but I've always told people this is what worked for me, and I'm happy to share that information. I ain't fucking holding on to that. I ain't going to charge you for it. I'm happy to share it because that, you know, rising tide floats all boats or whatever the fuck.

32:36Jason:Well, look, here's the thing about Tony Robbins is the thing that he is saying is old.

32:42Kevin Smith:Yeah.

32:43Jason:And the message, he didn't create himself. But what matters is that he's really fucking good at saying it. Delivering. And the thing is that so much about entrepreneurship is not just about the idea, it's the execution. How do you do it? And you said this thing earlier in this monologue that I loved so much, which was they could take this away from you. They could take that away from you, right? Like a studio could say, we're never going to work with you again. But you know what they can't take away from you is you. They can't take you away from you, which means that if you turn yourself into an asset that other people want, that they'll pay for, then you have control of your future.

33:26Kevin Smith:I'll tell you the good and the bad of that because that's what I did. I figured out at a certain point, I figured out how to become me for a living.

33:32Jason:Yeah.

33:32Kevin Smith:And I went from being an artist who makes art to being the art. And selling, as you said, I became the commodity. I became the asset. I became the thing that I could sell. Used to be when I did college gigs, I would have to show the movie, and then afterwards we would do Q &A. I think by the time I got to Clark.

33:51Jason:There was no movie show, it was just you.

33:52Kevin Smith:The idea was like, we all seen the movies, let's just fucking talk. This is the part we like the most, and if we skip the movie, we'll have more time to fucking talk. So I figured out that like, oh shit, I'm the art. and it was very liberating, incredibly liberating and freeing in as much as nobody owns me. I get to do whatever I want. You're full control of it. Only problem with that, I realized, if you become yourself for a living, you're on from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep. There is no off. There's no vacation. There's no, you are the job. Pivoting into becoming myself for a living meant that I was on all the fucking time.

34:39Kevin Smith:And, you know, burning the candle at all possible ends, kids, is no way to be any artist. Unless you want to be like the Van Gogh ear-cutting. Yeah, so what's the solution to that? Find ways to stay human, to stay relatable and whatnot. And you have to live a human life to fucking do that. You have to go to a grocery store on a regular basis, man. You have to like fucking spend time with the loved ones. Like the audience is beloved, yes, but it's like, you know, I'm glad my mom passed away in December. I'm glad I fucking spent as much time as I did with her in my adult years and made it a point to do because somebody smarter than me was like spend as much time with your mom as you can and shit.

35:17Jason:Good advice.

35:18Kevin Smith:The other thing I talk about a lot lately because it's like fascinates me is relevancy. I had no idea that that's what this job would become is a never-ending thirst and hunt for relevancy because that's the only way we exist. The only way we're seen, especially now.

35:36Jason:Your relevancy to others?

35:37Kevin Smith:Yeah, 100%. They got to give a fuck about me and what I'm saying in order for me to make a living. You know what I'm saying? Like my dad didn't matter. He wasn't relevant. He was a cog in the fucking postal machine and shit. He would still get paid either way. Sure. But I ain't getting paid unless somebody's just like...

35:52Jason:Unless somebody really cares about you. Exactly.

35:54Kevin Smith:Like, what are you saying this time? maybe not you know and i've been at the experiential end of that where people are like especially now in this culture is the dollars are fewer and farther between yep judicious choices are being made and so like you got to come with something that's going to be meaningful that's why fucking slobberingly grateful whenever we're out doing live shows still to have a full house now whether that house is 200 or fucking 500 people don't fucking matter man because i've done shows where it's like, hey, the back two rows are empty. And you think like, shit, man, I'm starting to say the same thing because that's why they're able to stay home.

36:30Kevin Smith:Because they know, I've heard Kevin say a bunch of shit, man. I'll catch him fucking next time and stuff. So when they show up, you're slobberingly fucking grateful, man, because that's relevancy in real time right there in the room. Podcasting, that's why I fell in love with it in 2007 and did it hardcore for like a decade and change because it was instant relevancy. People were talking about what you were talking about.

36:52Jason:You know, I'm curious how you think about maintaining relevancy without diluting your original value. And here's what I mean by that. I watch, I'm watching this thing happen with big podcasts and no shade to these hosts. Some of whom I know well, some of whom I do not, but let's just throw out a couple examples. Stephen Bartlett, Diary of a CEO. That used to be about CEOs. Now, you see a lot of wellness stuff on that because wellness is hot right now. Skinny Confidential, same thing, lots of wellness. You're seeing big brands that started in one space bleed out into others because that's where the relevancy is.

37:34Jason:And I understand that.

37:35Kevin Smith:Interesting.

37:36Jason:And I appreciate what they're doing. They're going where the audience is. But the thing that I worry for them is that you start to be too much like everybody else.

37:47Kevin Smith:If you're trend chasing and you're saying what everyone else is saying, then why are they coming to you?

37:51Jason:And so there's this interesting challenge, I think, in living in the creator economy. All the stuff that we're talking about falls now in language that didn't exist when you were making mall rats. Creator economy, personal brand, all that stuff. That's what you got into before there was language for it.

38:08Kevin Smith:Can I tell you a quick story about brand? First time I ever heard. The word brand has existed as I was a child. But the way we use, the way the world uses it now, and branding is important, and your brand and shit like that. First time I ever heard it referred to that way was with titans of the industry. So we're going to pitch the Clerks cartoon. I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator uncovering the Sunshine State's darkest secrets. Tonight, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show. R.J. freaking Decker as I live and breathe. He's a private eye. It's not a standard murder. It's someone bigger.

38:48Kevin Smith:And a public mass. Trying to get someone back to prison today? You go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes. R.J. Decker, series premiere. Tonight on ABC and stream on Hulu. And we had pitched it to ABC. There was an exec named Jamie Tarsus and she had passed on it. But then when we pitched it to the UPN network, there was an exec there named Dean Valentine who loved it. and he called up Michael Eisner, who was running Disney at that point, to say, hey, man, I love this Clerks cartoon. Can you make it happen for us over at UPN? I'd be real appreciative. And Eisner was like, sure. And then hung up and he was like, what's the Clerks cartoon and why does Dean Valentine want it for UPN?

39:32Kevin Smith:So then we were made to come back in and repitch to Eisner himself and to a guy who ran ABC named Bob Iger, who would go on to be the big dog. so it's me and Scott Mosier, Dave Mandel who we did the show with and so we were the pitch guys and unfortunately kids I gotta say the name so clench your assholes Harvey Weinstein shows up for that pitch, he didn't go to any of the other pitches but that one he went to because his boss was gonna be out for sure, now this was the day Monday after She's All That open She's All That was a Dimension movie no it wasn't a Dimension movie, should have been but it was a Miramax release and it had done well it was the number one movie for that weekend and so he was crowing about it down in the street and stuff we're like congrats you're the number one movie and he literally said these words he goes i showed the studios i can make a piece of shit gross just like them never forget that with all due respect to the folks who made she's all that a wonderful movie but that wasn't my words words of the chairman of miramyn so we go upstairs and uh we see the guy you know who was the big figure in our life in front of the people who are the big figures in his life so we watched harvey and michael eisner interact yeah and uh michael eisner said congratulations on your number one opening and harvey had a variation of what he said to me where he's like well we can do it just as well as you guys left off the piece of shit and then michael eisner goes yeah but it should have went out through dimension and there was quiet quiet beat and it's weird because that's the conversation that like me and moj would have yeah like that should have been a dimension movie and so there's a quiet beat and then michael eisner filled the beat and he goes yeah he's going it reminded me of touchstone he's going back in the day when we had touchstone we had a great brand he's going that meant everything he's going then we just started putting anything through that brand any piece of shit he's going in the audience didn't trust touchstone anymore and he goes you never fuck with the brand and i it's just stayed with me.

41:34Kevin Smith:So that was 2000. That would be the year 2000. And then he was the first person who used it in that way. And it's not like after that meeting, I started using brand. But when people started using it, I was like, that's fucking Mike Leisner stuff, man. Fucking the brand and shit.

41:51Jason:It's funny. So I wonder what you think about the balance. And I know we're at time here.

41:57Kevin Smith:Take all your time, all the time.

41:58Jason:I appreciate that. but I wonder what you think of the balance between following what might be relevant now and giving up what made you distinct.

42:11Kevin Smith:Excellent point.

42:15Kevin Smith:Well, I can only speak from experience.

42:23Kevin Smith:People, I've done a podcast called Fat Man Beyond and then before that it was called Fat Man on Batman. So the original incarnation of that podcast was me talking to people who spent their whole lives trying to work on Batman and finally accomplishing it. So it was a real like, this is your life with a Batman spin to it. Then eventually it became easier to do a podcast that was just like, well, let's just like talk about Batman stuff in general. Don't have to talk to Batman creators. Then eventually it became, let's just talk about pop culture. and so you know fat man beyond does that and we're you know fucking well-known brand been around for a while and stuff but there's nothing on that show you can't get from a hundred other fucking shows you know with better production values and stuff so you know i'm not saying we were wrong to do what we did but you know what fucking nobody ever says shit bad shit about like the old shows they're like, oh my God, I love the interview shows and stuff.

43:26Kevin Smith:More recent case. Well, actually, before you move on to that,

43:29Jason:can I just guess at the answer that's inherent in what you just said? Go ahead. Which is that the thing that sustains that show as it moved away from its original conceit is even though now, yes, plenty of people can get pop culture chatter wherever, However, the thing that sustains the show is the relationship that you built with the audience. That's it. People like me and Mark.

43:57Kevin Smith:And when I meet them in real life, they say that. They're like, oh, my God, I'm with you guys every episode. I drive truck runs listening to you guys. I agree about this and stuff. The identity factor is still huge. And whether the numbers are, like, you know, we used to get, like, 150K, you know, on YouTube. And now, like, it's down to, like, 25, 40K. Like, 50 is a big show and stuff. it's still the same relatability. When I see these people in the real world, you would think we were making fucking MTV back in the 80s. Right. Like just something that important.

44:33Jason:Because they connected with you. And so it's almost there's like an inverse interesting, I'm coming up with this theory right now, but there's a interesting inverse thing that happens as a property grows, which is that it has to start really distinct so that it stands out in a marketplace. But then as it grows - It has to homogenize a little bit? The conceit can widen.

44:56Kevin Smith:Right.

44:56Jason:But, and in a way you could say like, then therefore the uniqueness is declining. But what has to increase at the same time is how much people love you. The engagement with the hosts of the show. Yes, that they trust you. That you started with a distinct idea and that is really an anchor to build trust. I think you nailed it with trust. Trust is what it is.

45:16Kevin Smith:because you can change the format if they're like, well, we'll go with you on this. It's not why we came in the room in the first place, but I trust you and they'll make the journey. You're absolutely fucking right. Here's like, when I first started podcasting in 2007, 2008, 2009, like any podcast I would launch, I could launch at number one on the iTunes chart. And I took snapshots, screenshots and shit like that. So years later, the folks at iHeart are like, hey, why don't you do a podcast here? And generally I did everything in my own world and stuff, but I was like, it'll be interesting to deal with infrastructure and see what that's like.

45:54Kevin Smith:So me and Harley, my daughter, did a podcast called Beardless Dickless Me. And we wrapped it up after a year because the folks at iHeart did not invite us back.

46:05Jason:It feels a little off-brand for iHeart. Really? Yeah.

46:08Kevin Smith:I think they were, I don't think they cared for the title. But when all was said and done, And my kid was like, you know, she's more, and not even to paint her as this person, but far more than me, she used the term engagement. She was like, do you know we had more engagement with the vegan abattoir podcast that we used to do? And her and I used to do this vegan abattoir podcast. And so I was like, what do you think that's about? And she's like, because it picked the lane. It's about something. It's about veganism. Like you and I just sitting there talking to each other has no lane. and you really got to just want to listen to you talk to your daughter.

46:46Kevin Smith:She's like, I can't put S's in seats. So really it's all about that. She's gone, but when we were doing veganism, like we had a very distinct lane. And so we went back to doing vegan abattoir. And now vegan abattoir isn't what it was. The first time it was just a girl and her dad. And we just sat around bullshit. And we talked and we had some vegan departments and shit. But now it's, what is it? Well, because it's video, it's a show where you watch us eat vegan food and stuff like that. so it had to change otherwise it wasn't going to have as much interaction with any audience because right there's so many fucking choices i mean when we did vegan abattoir it was only like six years ago or something like that and since then the podcast field has gotten even thicker and far more dense so yeah i think to survive you have to adapt and i think you're absolutely right i think Like, as long as your audience trusts you, they'll go with you when the show becomes this, when the show starts embracing that and whatnot.

47:45Kevin Smith:Yeah, I was like, it's weird. I spent good 10 years as like the Johnny Appleseed of podcasts. I'd go to colleges and then Q &A gigs and just be like, y 'all should start a podcast. I was like, there's no gatekeepers in podcasts. You can talk about whatever you want. You don't even have to talk about all the Ninja Turtles. You could just do a show about Leonardo. That's it. You know, you get 100 episodes out of it and shit. And I would do it and I met people who were like, I'm on fucking episode 1000 of my podcast because you said I should start a podcast. That was absolutely wonderful. Never would have predicted.

48:17Kevin Smith:So many people would make political podcasts because that's not me. So I was out there going like, oh my God, you can do a podcast about anything thinking somebody would be like, I'm gonna do a podcast about just Mindy, not Mork. But instead there were a bunch of motherfuckers who were like, I'm gonna do a podcast about fucking politics, which to me is like you know with all due respect to politics the least interesting fucking subject on the planet absolutely so watching the podcast audience gravitate toward politics you know god bless do what you want say what you will but i was always like what a waste of time and breath why would you do that you could do anything on a podcast and you're literally gonna talk about what he or she just said or did.

49:03Kevin Smith:Like, ugh. But it's no different than Fat Man Beyond. In Fat Man Beyond, we talk about geek stuff that we geek out on. In all those political podcasts, they're talking about geek stuff that they geek out on. Their geek just happens to not be Batman, and their billionaires are not heroes.

49:20Jason:Let me ask you one final thing, and that's just to go back a little bit and build off of this insight that you had about relatability. Because that is absolutely the anchor of the thing that you have built, I think, is that either kids like me saw what you were doing and admired it and aspired to it, and then related to you as the kind of average guy. You got to play two roles at the same time. You were the average guy, but you were the average guy who did it.

49:50Kevin Smith:I was their avatar. You were their avatar. One cat said that to me once and I loved it. He was just like, this is my favorite compliment I've ever gotten about my entire career. and it came like 15 years ago. He goes, if I was going to do it, that's the exact way I would have done it. The way you do it, that's the way I would have done it. And you realize you're their avatar. You are doing the thing that they're like, oh, you know, they don't fantasize about being, you know, fucking Brad Pitt and shit because so many things have to be right in order to be Brad Pitt. But you could see me who stepped out of the peanut gallery and started doing a thing and be like, Like, I could dream about that sort of thing.

50:29Kevin Smith:So having people be like, that's the way I would have done it, always felt like the highest compliment one could receive.

50:37Jason:Yeah.

50:38Kevin Smith:Yeah. But I do know this, too. Somebody pointed out recently, because I was talking about, like, I talk about relevancy a lot later. And somebody was like, why are you so worried? I was like, because, like, I do me for a living. And not in that entertaining onstage fucking one hand in the air, one hand in my dick do me way. but I do Kevin Smith for a living. If people don't give a fuck about Kevin Smith, I'm not gonna eat and shit. And somebody pointed out like this. So like you're one of that last generation that like existed before the internet and you were also part of the internet. You're dug in to their history, to their roots.

51:15Kevin Smith:You grew with them. You took the journey with them. You entered new media with them. Like you are a part of their world. And it reminded me of like, I remember, When we were on Good Will Hunting, there was a day we were shooting a scene at the bar and it was in Toronto. We're all walking into the bar and a crowd outside across the street, there's Robin Williams and there's more than one person, many, so much so that it was the loudest, Mork! And I thought they were making fun of him, like fucking, hey, Mork and shit. But I was like, they still yell Mork? And he goes, they always yell Mork. He's going, it'll be Mork for the rest of my life.

51:54I was like, not like, good morning, Vietnam.

51:57Kevin Smith:He's going, there's some of those. He's going, but you don't get it. Mork was in their living room. Like, Mork was a part of their family. They talked to their moms and their dads about Mork. He's going, it will be Mork for the rest of my life.

52:08Jason:It's like imprinting on a baby duckling. Very much so, man.

52:12Kevin Smith:I mean, I'm glad you chose that instead of Twilight. Remember how it all went bad in the last book and movie where people are like, wait, that guy loves the baby? That's weird. But yes, yes, just like a little animal. There was an imprint there.

52:23Jason:So I'm wondering what, as you think back, you feel like is the formula or the lesson to pass on to entrepreneurs who are trying to figure out how to be relevant, consistently relevant to the people that they reach.

52:40Kevin Smith:Fuck, man. I mean, look, if you know the secret, let me. Because obviously I worry about relevancy quite a bit. but I this is gonna sound so fucking basic but it's in your Shakespeare man to thine own self be true you you know remember a couple years ago they made this such a dirty fucking word and bastardized it and shit like that but there's unique and beauty to it we're all fucking snowflakes bro we're all so different and so beautiful and so much presentation different from everybody else embrace that like fucking lean into that i tell young writers like yeah you can write about fucking like space or a comic book movie or some sort of shit but there are lots of those you know what there aren't a lot of the story of you they're waiting for that like that's what people connect to man like fucking individual that's why i like tiktok and social media took off as much as it did because there's relatability right in your hand you can look at yourself compare it to other people see where you are you can't do that with hollywood movie stars but you do that with quote-unquote influencers and stuff like that so as we've seen like you know the amount of time i've spent on social media ever since the inception of social media i have watched the business slowly and then quickly migrate over like you know where i used to be made fun of for like oh kevin he just loves to talk to his fans they all learned you know what i'm saying they They all got TikToks.

54:14Kevin Smith:The whole premise was that. Oh, my God. And they're all fucking there as well and whatnot. And I'm not saying I'm better or anything, but I didn't go there because that was the way that finance was going or the culture was moving or that's where the money was. I went because, like, fucking without an audience, I don't exist. And so much money was spent, like, showing movies to test screening audiences. And the biggest part of that was the 50 people they would keep behind and do a Q &A with. And I'm like, I could do that any fucking minute of the day with the people that buy tickets. Never mind these fantasy people who came in to get out of the rain and would never go see this movie in the first place.

54:57Kevin Smith:But people who I know for a fact are inclined to go see a Jay and Silent Bob movie. And so I trust, to thine own self, be true and lean heavily into that audience. There was a time in the arts where mystery was everything. And the less you knew about a star, the more intriguing they were. Bullshit. Like, not anymore, man. Now it's like, show them what you got. Because that's how you stick around and that's how you stay relevant. And you never know what is the thing that somebody's going to fall upon. And it's different for everybody. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, well, this is the one note that you play.

55:37Kevin Smith:No. It's like, be authentic. Why not? Like, that's what got you here. It never, like, blows my mind when people are always like, I'm sorry to bother me. When they come up to you, I'm sorry to bother you. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? You coming up to me is proof that I was the smartest guy in the room. Like, it's proof that the plan is working. If you don't come up to me, I'm sitting here wondering my relevancy. You come up to me, I'm like, oh, thank you. I exist. You see me.

56:02Jason:Kevin Smith, you have lived up to holy shit as I started this conversation. It has been such a pleasure.

56:07Kevin Smith:What a fucking delight. to re-meet under these circumstances. And just like I said about before, I would like to wet my beak a little off of this. I feel a little bit of personal responsibility.

56:19Jason:I'll build you in. I'll build you in.

56:22Kevin Smith:We all know how much money is in podcasts.

56:25Jason:I'll send you the very small royalty check.