Should Leaders Make Slower Decisions?

0:00From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show that solves entrepreneurs toughest problems. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and each week I take a problem that you're probably dealing with and get tactical solutions from people who have been there and solved that. So let's get solving. Here's kind of a business riddle. How do you fix a bad leader? And the answer is, you kind of don't. They need to lead themselves. When I think it is most effective is when they're ready for it. And that's, of course, going to be different for different people. This is Margaret Andrews, whose job is to fix bad leaders when they're ready.

0:41Which is to say, when they've hit a wall, when they were passed over for a promotion, when they can see their careers slowing down, when they finally realize the problem. Margaret is an instructor at Harvard University and author of the book Manage Yourself to Lead Others, which she says is a book for practicing managers who are not getting the results that they hoped for. And importantly, when they finally realize it and start looking for help. Oftentimes, these folks are looking for kind of leadership tips or hacks or things like that, when ultimately it comes down to understanding and managing themselves before leading others.

1:19Because leadership is very personal. You can't just follow some guidebook into leadership. You have to become a great leader. And to illustrate this, Margaret told me a really interesting moment that took place in one of her Harvard classes. So she had presented her students with this case study. The case study is this. There's a surgeon who is a great surgeon, but has terrible interpersonal skills, is bullying people, yelling at them, and so on. And the students were thinking through how to resolve this. They were thinking, okay, well, what should this person's boss do? What should the hospital administration do?

1:58What is to be done about this talented surgeon who cannot lead? And then... As we're closing down this conversation, I notice a hand raised in the back of the room, and this guy has not spoken the whole two days we've been together. So, of course, I call on him. And he says, I'm an engineer, not a surgeon. But he said, pretty much everything else in that case could have been written about me. He said, I'm a great engineer, but I've been a terrible teammate and I've been a really bad manager. And he said, that's why I'm here. I was recently passed over for a promotion. And if I don't fix this, I'll probably get fired.

2:35And he was there to learn. And he did. I know that after about a year, he got that promotion that he didn't get before. And within the next four years, he was promoted two more times. So I think people have to be ready for it. I think they should be ready for it. So now that you've heard that story, let me ask you a personal question. Do you think that you are a good decision maker? Because Margaret says that many leaders think that they're good at decisions, but they really aren't. And it's holding them back and holding their entire teams back. and it is a core symptom of bad leadership. Margaret's book covers so many different facets of leadership, but I wanted to zero in on this one particular part, decisions.

3:28How to make effective decisions. How to make clear decisions. How to make decisions that people will want to follow because you've done the work to become the better leader. Because I'll be honest, this is not easy. As a leader, I sometimes struggle to make fast, good, confident decisions. I'm not even sure if fast, good, and confident are the things that I'm supposed to be doing with decisions. I think we all wonder about this. And I know that there is a terrible ripple effect on everyone else who needs me to make a good decision when I am struggling. But as Margaret says, it's more than just about making the decision.

4:03It's about the process to get there. It's about doing the work on yourself. And it's also about, it's about everything that is coming up today on Problem Solvers right after the break. All right, we're back with Margaret Andrews, instructor at Harvard University and author of the book, Manage Yourself to Lead Others. And we're talking about how to make effective decisions. And I started by asking her, okay, if we're going to talk about effective decisions, then it's helpful to actually orient ourselves around what the opposite of that looks like. Like, why are people making ineffective decisions?

4:39And what does ineffective decision-making look like? And she said something that really surprised me. Yeah. So I think one thing is that people, and this is not just in decision-making, this is, it often comes up in meetings, but it's very transferable to decision-making, is that people say, I really want efficient meetings. And I said, oh, do you? I said, that's easy. You know, you have three items on the agenda and you go through all three of them. But what you really want is effective meetings. And sometimes that's a little slower. And one way to tell when you are having efficient meetings, but not effective meetings, is when the same issue just keeps coming up.

5:19And you think, wait a minute, didn't we talk about this last time and the time before? And the answer is, yes, you did. You probably just didn't give it its due. You know, you didn't really wrestle it to the ground. You didn't get through it. You didn't get through it. Which means you have to keep restarting it each time. Yes, or just revisiting it or, you know, re-explaining things. So I think that's one of the things is that we, I know there's a lot of talk about one-way decisions and two-way decisions or two doors, right? You know, but I think that that, if you take the whole cost of the decision, sometimes if you make a quick decision and you start to implement it, then you have to realize it's wrong, unwind it, redo it, etc.

6:01It's a lot of time, energy, wear and tear on people. And so, you know, I think if we gave a little bit more time to some of these decisions, we would make better, more effective ones. So is this distinction that you're making in meetings between the idea of an efficient meeting and an effective meeting, contrasting efficiency and effectiveness, is that a core part of our problem more generally when we're just thinking about decisions, that people are trying to make efficient decisions? They don't want to spend too long on them. They want to move forward. But that means that they're not fully unpacking them?

6:39Yes, generally, yes. I think that is true, is that we think very highly of people that make very quick decisions. I think we should think more highly of people that make very good decisions. Can you give me an example from someone that you've worked with of what wrong and right looks like here? In terms of a lot of times quick decisions, what I have seen in various organizations is that people will say they won't spend a lot of time making the decision. They'll say, oh, they'll essentially find the first idea that sounds plausible and then they go with it. And sometimes, you know, it's close or maybe it's not even good.

7:24But the thing is, is that, so first of all, I think a lot of times we need to spend more time unpacking the decision, understanding it, understanding, you know, what are the what I call the ripple effects of this decision. You know, it's, you know, who else is going to be impacted by this or what options does this leave open versus close for us in the future? And so when we do very quick decision making and we don't take those things into account, we end up wasting a lot of time, money, effort, energy, human resources on all of this. So it's not to say that you have to spend a lot of time on every decision, but sometimes things that sound, oh, you know, we made a decision like this last year and this is so similar, you know, the answer is more or less the same.

8:09The thing is, it's a year later, are things really the same? And do we need a different decision? I want to, as I dig in, I want to reference something concrete. So maybe dream up a specific kind of decision that you feel like you see leaders frequently making the mistake of being efficient at, but not necessarily effective at. So if I may, I'm going to back up just a little bit and talk about different types of decisions. Great. So one is, is I think we have problems. We have problems to be solved. And problems are ones that have trade-offs and certainly all decisions have consequences. But with a problem, you may have more than one.

8:55So there's rarely a single right answer, but some are better than others. So that's a problem. Yeah. Sorry to just to jump in. Yeah, I've I've been introduced to this framework in a couple different ways with a couple different languages. But the idea is the same, which is that there are two kinds of problems. There's a problem with a very specific answer and a problem with endless answers. And so it's the difference between two plus two is a problem with a very specific answer. There's only one of them. But most things are problems with nonspecific answers. And so the challenge that we have is recognizing which is which and not treating one like the other.

9:33So in my world, coming from the world of communications, the thing that I am frustrated with is that, for example, students in grade school are basically taught how to solve the problem of communication and writing as if it is a problem that has a specific answer through a five-paragraph essay structure, which is not the right answer for all times. And so what they're not taught is the many ways to solve that problem. So anyway, I love that as a way of thinking about it. So when you're talking about problems to solve, you know, some do have the exact right answer that just needs to be found, but most of them don't, and we treat them incorrectly.

10:10Does that sound right? It does. And I would also say, you know, what you're talking about with kids in school is that the majority of problems that we were asked to solve in school, and they are now, have a single right answer. And the thing is, is that when we get out into the work world, we treat everything like there is a single right answer. And there usually isn't. But we're looking for that single right answer. And so we've been trained essentially our whole life. But yeah, go ahead. And then, oh, sorry, I don't need to keep going, but this is such a thought-provoking idea because the next step there is that could be the source of so much fear of making decisions.

10:52I for example have in my world again of kind of good communications and and media I have been in so many calls Margaret with tv producers about a tv concept that I've brought to them and everybody loves it and then nobody does anything there's never been a bad meeting in Hollywood everybody will say it's great and they won't do anything and I finally asked somebody who's like deep in the industry. Like, why is this? What's going on? And he said, the answer is because nobody knows what the right decision is. And everyone is afraid of making the decision that the person above them will think is the bad decision.

11:31And because so what everyone's actually sitting around doing is being afraid that there is a right answer, and that they don't have the right answer, and that somebody else does have the right answer. And so they don't want to offer an answer and have it be in conflict with what the actual right answer is. But in truth, there is no right answer. Like, nobody knows and that creates so much problem. So anyway, so you've offered a really interesting human insight here, which is that we're going through the world having been taught that there are specific answers to problems. And therefore, when we are confronted with problems later in life as professionals, that we keep thinking there is an answer to this, but for some reason, I don't know it, but other people must.

12:13And therefore, I am afraid to make any decision because it might not be the one that everyone else recognizes is correct. Right. And I think the hard part is, is most of the decisions that you're making in leadership do have multiple right answers. You know, some may be better than others, but the thing is, is you talk to five people and you may get four or six different opinions on what the right answer is. And so, yes, there's these problems that have, you know, multiple right answers, but there's also dilemmas. And dilemmas are problems that definitely have options, but it's an unpleasant choice.

12:48Either choice is going to not be good because there are important and known trade-offs there. And sometimes we think it's between right and wrong, but it's not always. Sometimes it's between right and right. And in that, it's whose rights are we talking about? So that's a dilemma. And then there's also a paradox. And a paradox is between two things that sound dissimilar or even opposite but aren't. And so a paradox isn't solved, but it's managed. And I think a classic one on that is, you know, how do we organize marketing and sales? And oftentimes the way you know it's a paradox is because you do it, whatever you think it is, and then you undo it and redo it a different way.

13:33And then, oh, that didn't work. Oh, you know, so you cut. It's like a pendulum. You just swing back and forth. Whereas as a paradox, the answer is oftentimes instead of either or, it's yes and. So how do you take the best parts of both? So I think a lot of times we are trying to solve a paradox and choose one side when that's actually not helpful. So I had asked you to present us with a good kind of decision to be made that could have been done effectively or efficiently. And you backed up into this really interesting framework of problem, dilemma, and paradox. So now with that, reset us back into the idea of effective decision making.

14:20So this is first step, perhaps, is understanding what kind of thing we're actually facing. whether it is a problem-led dilemma or a paradox? Yeah, it is to think about that. And then, you know, I have some sort of questions that I use both myself and I tell other people about. And it doesn't have to be used on every problem that you face, but sometimes a quick run through these questions can be very helpful. And the first one is, and it sounds so obvious, but people don't often think about this, is what's my goal in this situation, right? To be very clear about the goal. But the second one is, which is very related to the first, is therefore, if I have this goal, what am I actually optimizing for?

15:06Because there's multiple things that you may have as a goal, right? But this is actually asking for, okay, and what's the hierarchy of these? So, you know, by optimizing for this one, therefore, what am I deprioritizing or trading off? Right. So in any decision, you're going to have different things that you're hoping for. But you have to be clear about what's the big one. What's the real one? And then the third question is, you know, about what are my options for how to proceed? You know, what could I do? And this may be, depending on the type of challenge that you're facing, could be a long list that you're looking for or a short list.

15:48And then for each of those options, a bunch of sub questions, you know, to what extent does it address the goal that you're trying to achieve? Who will be affected by choosing this option, both directly and indirectly? This is one, by the way, where I think efficient decisions and effective decisions are different. Very oftentimes why they're not effective is because we don't understand who's going to actually be impacted by it. It's not just the first layer, it's the second layer and the third layer. Right. We've just completely skipped over what happens after the decision gets made. Exactly.

16:21And the other part of it is, you know, how might people perceive this decision and how might they feel about it? How might they think about it? So a lot of times people think, oh, that person always optimizes or always gives that group what they want, right? That might be how they perceive it. And therefore, they're going to think a little less of that decision. Also, you know, what are the getting at what you just said is what are the potential long term implications for choosing this option, both positive and negative? You know, does it enable some things in the future or does it cut off some things in the future?

16:57And then also just who needs to be involved in this? Who needs to know? What do they need to know? And when do they need to know it? Then, you know, after you have these options, you think through these things, think about, well, which option or combination of options gets us actually closer to the goal that we're trying to achieve? Sixth question is around who needs to know and when do they need to know it? And then seventh is how can I communicate the decision to each of the effective people or groups to increase their understanding and support. Some decisions have winners and losers. And I think we need to be clear about that.

17:35And you may communicate that differently to different people or different types. So everything that you said there feels like an unpacking of a earlier observation that you made. So I want to draw the line. And that earlier observation was that we tend to lionize fast decision making, but we don't appreciate slower decision making. And what you just described sounds like the recipe for the slower decision making, which is to say there are a lot of factors to consider. This isn't just what is the right decision, but then this is what is the impact of that decision on specific people and therefore also how to communicate that to all of them.

18:24And that takes time. And so number one, I want to make sure that I'm right, that what you just laid out is essentially what happens with effective, slower decision-making. But then number two, I'm curious for your thoughts about why culturally we seem to reward or appreciate or applaud fast decision making more than this process that you're describing? That's a great question. I'm not sure there's a great answer to that one. I think it, you know, it just looks smart and sexy. You know, when somebody, you know, just clearly makes a decision, you know, it just sounds like, wow, that's so cool. I wish I could be like that kind of thing.

19:09And the other is, I think that leaders have a ton of decisions to make, and some of them should be made quickly, and some of them should be made more slowly. And we get in trouble when we confuse the two. Yeah. Do you find that this is something that goes beyond just a cultural observation, as we've both made, but rather is something that has been trained into leaders that they therefore have to unlearn, which is to be a great leader, I must make fast, efficient decisions. People need to come to me and I need to know the answer, or I need to make a call and be good with it. And that teaching people how to make these more effective decisions also requires a kind of cultural unlearning about what a good leader looks like?

20:02I think there is some of that. I do think that there is some of that, that, you know, thinking about what's effective. But I think it also goes to something that I oftentimes think about is that sometimes you have to slow down to speed up, right? Making quick, efficient, but non-effective decisions sounds quick, sounds, wow, we're really making great decisions here. but sometimes if you slow down just a little bit, I've been in decision-making groups where, you know, I always thought if we just slept on it, we would have made a different decision. Or if, you know, we had talked about this for 10 or 15 more minutes.

20:44So I think that's true. But the question you started off with is, you know, why is this? I think that if you go into a a group of people in business and say, you know, what are the defining characteristics of a leader? That decisive is one of the ones that comes up very early. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And do you disagree with that? No, I don't think that it's wrong, but decisive doesn't mean that you always, yes, no, you know, four, seven, etc. That sometimes it's a little bit deliberative that you want to think about it. You may want to ask other people about it. You may want to sleep on it. Yeah.

21:26You could argue that the definition of decisive does not indicate speed in which you are decisive. It just means that you're decisive. And I would think that people would feel more confident and decisive in their decision-making if they've gone through a more analytical process. Yeah, I will say go through a process because part of, you know, one of the things is thinking about, well, how do I feel about this decision? You know, when you make a really big decision, I'm sure we've all had this where your gut hurts and you're trying to figure out what does that mean? What does that gut feeling mean?

22:05Right. Am I fearing that I'm making the wrong decision? Am I afraid I'm hurting this one group by making this decision? Do I think so-and-so is going to be mad about this? Right. Right. So it's trying to unpack what that gut feeling is. I think that there is also, how do you feel about it? Margaret, to wrap up here, I want to share with you a decision-making strategy that I, I don't know that I invented it, but I started thinking this way and maybe it was influenced by something else that I saw. And I just want to know what you make of it. And it is this. so when making a hard decision what i like to do especially if i am trying to make it with somebody else is list out every possible version of a decision that we can make to solve this problem before we start to evaluate any of them um and the re so you know there's my wife and i just did this with a school issue with our son.

23:10It's like there's school and there's friends and there's, you know, it's all tangled up. And we were trying to think of what to do. And I said, all right, well, why don't we list out everything that's possible? And the first thing that I said, my wife said, no, that's not going to work. And I said, hold on, let's just list them. And I said, all right, so that was the first one. Here's the second one. She's like, that's not going to work either. And I said, hold on. The point of this is not to go through and then evaluate them. The point is to just go through. And the reason for that, I kind of came up with on the spot.

23:40I've been doing this for a while where I like to list them all out and then make a decision. But I said, the reason I want to do this is because if you hear one option, then your brain thinks there are other options. And so it's easy to then dismiss the option and say, well, that's not a good one. What's the next one? But when you start from the position of here are all the options in front of us, there are actually only seven things that we can think of to do. And we know that a bunch of them are bad, but we just listed out every possible thing to do. There's seven of them. And so the first thing that we're going to have to do here is we're going to have to weed out the truly bad ones.

24:21And then we're going to have to whittle down until we pick one because we got to pick one. And there's no perfect option here because there's no right answer as you and I talked about a minute ago. And so we have to pick something, and we are now constraining ourselves into making a decision because we've seen every possible version of the decision. I have found that effectively pushes me, and in the case of that particular example, also my wife, into picking something instead of dismissing everything one by one on the assumption that some right answer will actually come up. What do you think of this as just an approach?

24:59I like it. actually. So I'm a huge believer in writing stuff down, right? Getting it out of your head and onto paper. And I do things like that too. I create oftentimes if I have to yes, no decisions or whatever, I write out a pro con list. Like if I choose option A, the pros are this and the cons are that. Option B, the pros are this, the cons are that. And then, you know, I go through it. But I also, in that situation, which maybe you guys do something similar, is I close my eyes and I tell myself I chose option A. And then I just listen to what my body tells me. And then like don't or whatever.

25:34And then I say I chose option B. And then I do the same thing and think about what does my body say? And sometimes there's just something that wasn't on the list that, you know, maybe you hadn't considered. And the last thing I'll say on that is that there's one more question I think that is really helpful in especially in group decision making. And that is the question of if we choose this option, what could possibly go wrong? And why I like that is because it's not telling you not to do it, but you might be able to catch something early before it goes wrong. So it's not saying don't choose this option.

26:12It's saying, oh, this is a downside that we have to be careful of. And is there either a way we can communicate it better or differently or prevent that from happening somehow. Yeah, that's great. Margaret, the book is called Manage Yourself to Lead Others, Why Great Leadership Begins with Self-Understanding. This was so useful. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And that's our episode. Now let's keep the conversation going. I write a newsletter called One Thing Better, where each week I offer one new way to be successful and satisfied and build a career or company you love.

26:51You can find it at one thing better dot email. That's a web address. Just plug it into a browser. One thing better dot email. And if you get one of those emails and reply, it goes straight to my inbox and I will get back to you. Problem Solvers comes out every Monday morning. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss an episode. The show is produced by Emily Holmes and Money News Network. My name is Jason Pfeiffer. See you next week.