The Science of Knowing When to Walk Away

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1:55If you don't have many options, then resilience may be the only path forward. Running a business means solving problems. I tell you how the smartest entrepreneurs do it. Hi, I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and this is Problem Solvers.

2:15There's a story I hear from entrepreneurs all the time. I was working on something and everyone was saying no and everything seemed like it was disaster and everything was falling apart, but I persevered. I persevered and because I persevered, I won. And we tell versions of that story a lot. People love that story. It's inspiring. I've always worried a little bit about sharing stories like that. And the reason is because that story creates this narrative that the way to succeed is only to persevere. that the people who persevered were the people who won and everyone else quit and therefore never got to the finish line.

2:56And I know that that's just not true because I know that there are plenty of people who persevered and kept doing something that was never going to work. And eventually they just ran out of money or energy or they finally realized that they should have quit a long time ago. And this is the great question that I always have for people who offer this specific piece of advice. just keep going, which is, but how do you know when maybe not to keep going? I have someone. I have a organizational psychologist who thinks and has written about exactly this. His name is Dr. Anthony Klotz. He is the author of the book Jolted, Why We Quit, When to Stay, and Why It Matters.

3:35Anthony, thank you so much for joining me on Problem Solvers. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Okay. So set me up here a little bit before we dive into this. Give me the background and how you came to be thinking so much about quitting or when not to? Yeah. So for me in particular, I was interested in resignations. And there's a lot of great research on this decision of when to quit your job. And my little niche that I became interested in was, what about after you make the decision to quit? Then how do you go about leaving? And there's lots of different options, and it's a confusing time. So I started studying it and really, you know, through that got into all of this great literature and research that we have on when do you know it's time to walk away?

4:25What leads people to quit their jobs? And, you know, traditionally, we know that there's like two main reasons. We've studied this for about 100 years. And, you know, you could probably come up with these right now. There's two kind of intuitive reasons why people walk away. And we call these like push and pull factors. But really what it is is like when the negative parts of your job build up, they kind of push you away from your job. Of course, out there, there's other attractive opportunities too that pull you away from your job. Even if you're happy, you might get pulled away by these more attractive opportunities.

4:59Even if there are no opportunities, if it's a really bad situation, you may be pushed toward the exit door. And so we'll talk a little bit about, we'll talk a bit more about that. I think with entrepreneurial ventures, that complicates the push and pull factors a little bit. But what really intrigued me when I was digging into this research was this notion of these one-off events that happen. So about 50 % of the time, people quitting is not driven by this sort of logical push and pull calculation. It's driven by this one event that happened, a jolt or a shock that made them think, hey, this relationship with work, this relationship with my venture isn't really what I thought it was.

5:39It sort of opened my eyes to something different. And that leads people to quit sometimes really rapidly or at least gets that train of thought going of something needs to change and that thing may be leaving. And so it was really my interest in resignations that led me to this research on these one-off event, these jolts that really caught my interest and led me to study it for the past decade and a half or so. Anthony, you heard my setup here where we're surrounded by these stories of perseverance, and therefore it is the thing that we often celebrate. And inversely, we think of quitting as failure, as having given up.

6:20And I'd love to hear you unpack this cultural narrative that we have. And if you feel like people are often getting it wrong or misunderstanding what the noble move is. Yeah, well, I think perseverance and resilience are a lot of the time necessary to be successful in any profession, definitely when it comes to leading a new venture. And so it's not necessarily wrongheaded advice, but it doesn't hold up a lot of the time. And if you talk to almost any successful entrepreneur or in any walk of life, they'll be able to tell you the moments where they walked away earlier in their career, when they quit, when they were going down a path they shouldn't have.

7:05And often this stems in the wake of failure. You know, one of the there is a narrative right now that failure is actually a good thing because it opens our eyes to these learning opportunities. I don't know that it's necessarily a good thing. like failure is still pretty painful. But it is, I think, opening up our eyes to talking about, you know, when we fail, or when something bad happens, that is a learning opportunity. But sometimes that learning opportunity is we're going down the completely wrong path, like the path that we're on has served us enough. And in psychology, we call this escalation of commitment.

7:40You invest so much in an entrepreneurial venture. And so when things, you know, maybe start to go a little bit poor, it's easier to double down and follow the resilience path than take a hard look and say, is this the path that I should stay on? And so I think this cultural narrative around resilience, around perseverance is not wrong. A lot of research would back up that individuals, to the extent that they can persevere, to the extent that they're resilient, they will succeed more in life. But that comes up against, again, talking to almost any successful person, And they'll tell you probably a secret to their success was quitting at the right moments, but also staying at the right moments too.

8:22So I do think that there's some truth to both sides of it. Yeah, it's a really great point that I hadn't thought of that the narrative of perseverance is also there's the quitting of something that was built in, which of course is seen in retrospect as the bold move as well. I walked away from this career and I did this other thing. I walked away from this bad relationship and I did this other thing. And people say, yeah, that's great. But then when you're in the moment and you are considering walking away, the walking away often doesn't feel like success. It can feel like giving up on something.

8:56So take me into the moment of decision for people. Like, what should people be considering as they assess whether or not they're in a place that they should stay or a place that they should go? yeah so um in general when period when people experience these jolts they they take a step back and sort of weigh up their relationship with work and i think at a high level we think of this as like is this is this job or is this role that i'm in leading me down the path that i want to go in life and for each of us that's different but psychologists have studied this for a while and said, there's probably some big commonalities to how each of us define the good life.

9:38And so I do think it's useful when we're in these moments of deciding to say, is this job taking me down the path to what I define as the good life? And psychologists say, essentially, there's two sort of big buckets that the good life falls into. One of them is happiness and contentment. So on a day-to-day basis, do you feel happy? Are the things that you're doing making you happy? The other one is meaning and purpose. And we all define that differently, but do we feel like we're living a life of meaning and purpose? Now, because most of us spend a lot, if not the majority of our waking hours at work, work plays a big role in our good life calculus.

10:19And so the question is, is work a source of happiness for me on a daily basis? And is it a source of meaning and purpose over the long term? I think it's useful to take happiness and break that down a little bit into the two biggest buckets where happiness comes from at work. Now, at work, happiness can come from many places, good pay, of course, like good career development opportunities and so forth. But in general, your overall happiness, your overall satisfaction at work is determined by, you know, how you spend the majority of your time every day. And that's with other people. And that's doing the main tasks of your job.

10:58And so I think it's useful for people when they're in these moments to say, okay, my job tasks, what I do day in and day out. Do I still enjoy those? Did I ever enjoy those? And sort of keep that in mind. And then there's the people. There is some truth, not the whole truth to the saying that people don't leave jobs, they leave bosses. Bosses do play a large role in our happiness, but so do our co-workers and our customers and our subordinates and everybody we come in contact with on a daily basis. Of course, bosses have more control than most. And so you can weigh up on a day-to-day basis, the people who I'm interacting with, are they a source of positive energy for me or are they taking energy away and not giving it back?

11:42So on the one hand, I think it is useful to say on a day-to-day basis, is this job doing it for me from a happiness standpoint? Then the other part is meaning and purpose. And this often comes to us a little bit later in our careers where this really takes priority, sometimes early in our careers as well, but often later where we would ask ourselves the work that I'm doing over the long term, does it make the impact that I want to make on the world, on my community, or just me? Like, is it putting enough money in my bank account because that's what I, that's my purpose right now or whatever it may be.

12:17And the same thing has to go when you look around you, you say, do the individuals I'm working with sort of share the same value? Are we all moving in the right direction together? And so that would be a good, and you could break those questions down as much as you want. But I think thinking about, is this job getting me where I need to go? Is this career getting me where I need to go in terms of how I define happiness at this stage in my life, in terms of how I define purpose at this stage in my life. We change over the course of our life. So those are the two big buckets. And I will add one other thing.

12:50It's fairly recent, like in the last 10 or 15 years, psychologists have said there is a certain percentage of the population, let's say 10 or 15 percent, that defines the good life different than happiness and meaning. They define the good life as a life of excitement and adventure. And that's really what drives them. And so if you find yourself someone who's tempted to quit a lot of the time, you have this like wanderlust in you, it may just be part of like the life for you is the life of every two to five or 10 years, I'm going to switch careers. I'm going to take on a new venture. I'm going to do something different.

13:26There's more coming in that conversation, but first it's time to play a game. It is tax trivia brought to you by TurboTax. I'm going to ask you a tax related question, and then you'll get the answer later in the episode. Ready? Let's see if you know the answer. Can you deduct a home office if you occasionally work from your couch? Pretty relevant for anyone who works from home. Tune in later in the episode for the answer and learn more about filing your taxes with Intuit TurboTax. You can visit turbotax.intuit.com. You know, that last part that you just said there really resonates with me. And I want to tell you my very quick version of my career and see what you make of it.

14:10So I had noticed that I had about a two to maximum three-year clock on any job. I would show up. I'd be enthusiastic. By a year and a half in, I was starting to get really itchy. By two to two and a half years, I was starting to get resentful. And then I got out of there. And I just kept doing that over and over and over again. And then I got to Entrepreneur, where I have now been for, this number will shock you because It shocked me. Ten years. I cannot believe I've been anywhere for ten years. And so the question is, well, how? Now, part of the answer is that I have a cool title, editor-in-chief, and I have a lot of autonomy.

14:50And so it is a different kind of job. But I'll be honest. I think the real reason is because in many ways, I have, quote, unquote, quit and reinvented. I've quit the previous version of myself and reinvented myself a number of times. So over these 10 years, I went from first just the guy who was focused on entrepreneur and then the guy who was focused on entrepreneur and started to build some other things for myself outside of it. It's an entrepreneur, lives up to its name. It's encouraging of entrepreneurship. And over this time, I've started to start my own companies. I've started to travel around and give these keynote talks.

15:31I've reinvented myself from a media person to a person who sits on advisory boards. I just keep kind of changing who I am, but because I'm able to do that on the outside, I've been able to keep this base of this role for as long as I have. So I wonder what you make of that. I feel like in a way I'm kind of trying to do both things. I'm being mindful of what future opportunities get to be created here, and that's one version of the good life. But also I get to be adventurous and to experiment, which is definitely something that speaks to me. Yeah, yeah, that's a pretty sweet spot that you're hitting right there, because it's between like the security of like you've been with them for 10 years.

16:14You sort of know this organization well, they know you. And there's just a certain sort of like predictability that comes along with that, being in a long term relationship with another person or a company. But then having the autonomy to satisfy that employment or organizational wanderlust that you have or just this desire to reinvent yourself every few years is pretty critical. And I think part of that comes with naturally getting higher in the organizational chart, but also that also has to do with the organizational culture. Are you a company that gives employees the autonomy to reinvent themselves, to dabble inside hustles, to do other sorts of things, to explore different versions of their self?

16:54And the research, you know, there's been a lot of research on side hustles over the past five or 10 years. And it shows that, of course, if we go out and have positive experiences where we stretch ourselves in some new way, it could be associated with work or it could be something totally different. When we come back to work, we bring that positivity and those new skills with us and that more creative thinking. It fuels better ideas. And so there's a win-win here for organizations that allow it. And so I do think, and this is something - Actually, sorry, can I just interrupt you there? Because what you just said there is really critical, and I want to speak to all leaders of organizations right now.

17:31because I hear so often the same story, which is an entrepreneur tells me that they had started a side hustle while they were at a job and then the boss made them choose. Stay here and get rid of that side hustle, which is taking away your energy, or leave and you can go do whatever you want. And in each case, they say, you know what? Well, then I'm out of here and they go build something amazing. And I think, what a stupid company because you just chased away your most enthusiastic, creative, entrepreneurial talent and you could have kept them and had them do amazing things for your organization while still building their own thing.

18:07They could have had the capacity for both. And in fact, their side hustles would have drawn more ideas and connections and energy into your organization and you chase them away. And that is foolish. And I hear it all the time. Yeah. It's the strange bit of, I don't know if it's territoriality or insecurity or just old school thinking, But yeah, I mean, it's clear that, and this doesn't just go for side hustles. It has to do with like any positive activities for the most part that you have outside of work. But when it comes to side hustles, these are other, you know, business related endeavors that you're engaging in.

18:44And of course it's going to come back. And, you know, the buzzword right now is reskilling. Organizations want people to reskill for AI and for all sorts of other reasons. Well, that's often what you're doing with a side hustle. You're developing this other muscle in your toolkit. And so, of course, it's going to benefit you, especially from a creativity standpoint when you're back in the organization. All right, quick break, because earlier in the episode, we played Tax Trivia brought to you by TurboTax. The question was, can you deduct a home office if you occasionally work from your couch? Now, here is the answer.

19:22The answer is no. Sorry. For a home office deduction, the space must be used regularly and exclusively for business. Learn more about filing your taxes with Intuit TurboTax. You can visit turbotax.intuit.com. How would you port any of this over to entrepreneurs? So, you know, we're talking about when to quit and we're talking about that in the framework of a job, But there are plenty of moments in the life of an entrepreneur in which they've been building something. They've invested a lot of their own money. They've invested other people's money. There are maybe employees whose livelihoods depend upon the success of this organization, but they see the future, and they are unsure whether or not this is a thing that's really going to work long term or whether there's going to be an exit or whether this is something that they want to keep doing.

20:17and they feel really stuck and they don't know what to do. And they keep hearing these stories of resilience, resilience, resilience. And so I wonder what you could take from even maybe the world of thinking about quitting jobs or just the research into quitting and these jolts that you could help entrepreneurs orient themselves around that moment. Yeah, no, I can definitely appreciate that feeling of stuckness, especially with the responsibility that comes with entrepreneurship and the commitments that you're often in, you know, you know, when you're in an entrepreneurial venture. And so, yeah, there's, there's a couple of things to think through in terms of like, how stuck are you when you're in that moment?

20:57Because sometimes when people feel like I'd like to quit, but I can't, that can create a lot of anxiety. And actually there's not a whole lot of research, but there are anecdotes that just knowing that you have the ability to quit makes you less want to quit, right? Just knowing I could leave is enough. And so it's always good to check in and say, like, you know, what is my level of stuckness in this role? And this, it's pretty straightforward. I mean, the first thing is, do I have alternatives to what I'm doing right now? And that could be from a financial standpoint, from a career standpoint, what other alternatives out there?

21:37Like a lot of individuals get into entrepreneurship through leaving a more traditional role? A lot of the time, entrepreneurs at one point boomerang back into that role. They do the entrepreneurial venture and decide it's not for me and go back. And so is that an option for you? That's just one example. So you're always thinking about alternatives. If there's no alternatives, then you are in a bit more of a stuck position. The next one is switching costs. So if I was going to go do that alternative thing, if I was going to switch, get out of entrepreneurship and do something else? How much time energy cost would it take out of me?

22:16And then the third thing is one of my favorite terms. It was one of the first entrepreneurship papers that I ever came across in management. And it talked about psychic income, which you were talking about a little bit a second ago, I think. But it's just the happiness that you get from being your own boss and really being honest with yourself about that. Because for many people, that happiness is pretty high. And it's what a lot of individuals who are in traditional jobs dream of. And so you got to be honest with yourself about how much you value that because it can be something that you take for granted after a while.

22:53And so once you get an assessment of that stuckness, you can figure out what are my options from here. And if you have many options for alternatives and so forth, then you have more options for how to deal with these feelings that you're having. If you don't have many options, then resilience may be the only path forward. And it's best putting this out of mind for now while taking care of your own well-being, but charging ahead. Dr. Anthony Klotz, really great advice. The book is called Jolted, Why We Quit, When to Stay, and Why It Matters. Can you give me a quick breakdown of what the book is and who should pick it up?

23:32Yeah. So the book is, the book Jolted is about, well, jolts, right? These moments in our careers where an event, it could be in our personal life, in our professional life, it could be a big or small event, just catches us off guard, makes us stop and rethink our relationship with work and puts us in this sort of important liminal moment where we decide whether we should go or stay. Lots of the time people stay when they should have left or left when they should have stayed. And so it's about navigating this moment. So in the book, I talk readers through the six different types of jolts that you'll experience in your life, kind of where they're hiding in your life and career so that you can recognize them and then go through a fairly sensible process to say, what's the right outcome here?

24:17Do I need to do nothing? Should I speak up and try to change my current role? Should I lean back for a while and kind of protect my well-being and then re-engage later? Or is it time to walk away? And I also get into if it is time to walk away, what's the right way to do it? How to resign in a way that sets you up for future success? And then in the last part, and this is relevant to entrepreneurs for sure, is the reality is we are often audiences to the jolts that are happening in the lives of those around us. Our family members, our employees for sure. and we can help people navigate that jolt process better, especially if we're in a leadership position.

25:02So the last part sort of turns the lens and says, by understanding jolts, we can also make other people's careers and lives, their path to the good life smoother and better. Sounds so interesting. Well, if you are feeling jolted, now you know the book to get for you. Anthony Klotz, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure.

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