They Turn Video Games Into Movies & TV — Here's How

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1:33There's no safe like SimpliSafe. From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show that solves entrepreneurs' toughest problems. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, and each week I take a problem that you're probably dealing with and get tactical solutions from people who have been there and solved that. So, let's get solving. Have you ever looked at Sonic the Hedgehog and wondered this? How is this still a thing? I mean, really, if you grew up in the 90s like I did, then you loved Sonic. The game came out in 91. It was so fun. Fast-paced, colorful, imaginative.

2:12But it has been 30 years. Lots of other things have happened in those 30 years, including Sonic disappearing for a lot of that time. And then, seemingly out of nowhere, it re-emerged as a full-fledged entertainment powerhouse that is now beloved by an entirely new generation of kids. Kids, like my own kids, who probably have no idea that Sonic ever was a video game that their old parents played. To them, it's just a series of movies and endless toys that I have spent money on. And that might leave you wondering, how? How does something go from old and forgotten to newly beloved? How can some intellectual property find new relevance in new generations?

2:59And the answer? Well, in the case of Sonic, it begins with a guy named Dimitri. We knew that after the first Mario movie, Nintendo was more or less, you know, close for business. That's Dimitri Johnson, and he's talking about the great Mario flop of 1993. Nintendo had come out with its first Mario movie. It bombed, and everyone just assumed that there was no way for video game characters to make the leap to the big screen. And that assumption held for a long time, until 14 years ago, when Dimitri felt like the conventional wisdom was wrong. We completely disagreed, and we really wanted a case study to prove that if you found IP from the gaming world that people genuinely loved, and you found talent, writers, directors, actors who loved it and treated it with the same care that you would treat a New York Times bestseller or, you know, any other piece of material, you could get a result that worked.

4:03Instead of just like throwing schlock together with producers who didn't play games and Carabao games. But we also knew for Hollywood to give that a chance, there needed to be a recognizable brand. We weren't going to go get some indie title that no one heard of and get the machine behind it. You look at, you know, two of the biggest, most iconic game brands, it's like Mario and Sonic, you know, it's those two. And Mario, of course, was spoken for. So Dimitri, who at the time was co-founder of a production company called DJ2 Entertainment, flew to Japan and talked Sega into giving Sonic a second life.

4:39Then along the way, Dimitri met Mike. I represented the writers that got brought in to adapt the movie that got the green light, and then wrote Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. And then several years later, I ended up signing as an agent Dimitri and DJ 2. That is Mike Goldberg, and he said signing as an agent because he was previously at an entertainment agency called APA, now known as IAG. He was a TV, film, IP agent, and partner. And fun fact, Mike was also once my agent. He had just read a column of mine in Entrepreneur Magazine, reached out to say he liked it. We got to talking, discovered some shared interests, and then started working together.

5:20But one day, I got a call from Mike telling me, Hey, big news! He was leaving the agency and starting a new company with Dimitri. It is called Story Kitchen, and it's built to recreate the sonic magic with all sorts of other beloved, sometimes forgotten characters. Story Kitchen is actually currently working on reviving Teddy Ruxpin and Toys R Us. Mike and I catch up from time to time, and I can't help but always throw some ideas his way as we talk about his work. You know, to just say, hey, have you thought about bringing this video game back, or how about that one? I am sure you are already thinking something similar.

6:00I mean, his work, their work, Mike and Dimitri, you know, it just makes you start to think, what did I love as a kid that would be awesome today? And don't worry, at the end of this episode, you will hear a way to pitch them. But anyway, Mike and I were emailing recently and I said, you know, it would be fun to have you guys on Problem Solvers. Because although these guys are in the business of turning beloved IP into movies and TV, what they're really in the business of is understanding what is relevant, and how sometimes, with the right idea and right people, the things we once loved can come back again.

6:37The things that were once written off still have life. So, how do they do it? How does something beloved from our childhood get that second life? And what are the many ways in which it can go wrong along the way? Today on Problem Solvers, Mike and Dimitri talk through their process, and we even do a little digging into a video game that I keep telling Mike that they should revive. You want to know what it is? Just keep listening right after the break. Alright, we're back. I should acknowledge the previous episode of Problem Solvers was about the other Sonic, Sonic Drive-In, and now here we're talking about Sonic the Hedgehog.

7:18This was completely unplanned, but a nice one-two sonic punch. Just kind of funny how those things go. Anyway, today I'm talking with Dimitri Johnson and Mike Goldberg of Story Kitchen. And let's just jump into it. I started by asking them how they pick the old characters, the old IP, that they think can be beloved again today. It's funny. We get this question a lot from studios and studio friends asking, you know, kind of how our picker works. and it's not super scientific. It's just like that feeling that you wake up every day and you can't help yourself from wanting to push this forward. And like I look across in my home office and I look at, you know, my original Teddy Ruxpin and you get these warm feelings and the same with Toys R Us.

8:07Like you can still smell the smell of the store and Teddy Ruxpin isn't not appealing to a new generation of kids. They just simply don't know about Teddy Ruxpin. I mean, the things that Teddy represents, you know, it's very much like the Ted Lasso, the optimism storyteller. storyteller. You know, when we looked at this, it was how do you bring in this character that worked for the 80s and make it work for today where kids are more sophisticated, they can be more jaded. And it's coming up with a way in which we spent a couple of years hearing a lot of pitches that we knew it wasn't it. We knew it wasn't it until finally we're like, that's it.

8:48That's something that for us, you remember Teddy, grew up with Teddy. There will be Easter eggs in there, you're going to feel that nostalgia, you're going to feel that warmth, but for a new generation, they're going to come in, and initially, they're going to be hooked by what looks like cute characters, and then they'll realize there's so much more going on there, and it very much is similar to that sonic blueprint of, you know, tapping into the 40-somethings who will have that fondness, but treating it truly like an origin story and like a new IP, you know, to those who aren't aware of it. And then it's just putting your village together of people who share that warmth, share that love, you know, who remember fondly.

9:27And, you know, again, we're not batting, you know, beating up against a damaged brand or missteps with the IP. It's just representing it to the world. But okay, what was the answer to Teddy Rockspin? What did you hear that didn't work? And what did you hear that did work? And the reason I want to hear that is because I would really love to hear you articulate what it means to translate feeling that Teddy Ruxpin represented to kids today. What's the answer to that? I love this example because we were very protective of Teddy. And, you know, we had studios who tried to make us offers to turn Teddy into a horror franchise.

10:09That was a hard no. We heard pitches that Teddy was almost the joke, which was like definitely not. Those are interesting ideas that I could see someone being able to make a quick buck off of. You could take that IP and you could do something weird and unexpected with it, and it works once, and it gives Teddy this one-time flashback. But it's not what you want to do if you want to create a lasting version of this brand, right? That's correct. You want to establish Teddy as a real being, as a sentient being, you know, who actually stands for something and has a personality and has a past and a, you know, his own history.

10:52And, you know, we really worked hard to find writers who really understood that. And, you know, like end of the day, it still has to be entertainment. You know, it's still going to be a fun four quadrant family adventure. But when we were pitching this around town, we had execs who teared up on us. And then they're laughing and then they're getting emotional. And that was the goal. Like we wanted, going back to your question of how do you take that feeling and translate it? It's where we ended up, where we now have a version of this movie that, you know, you will get dust in your eyes and you will be laughing.

11:29And then you will be pleasantly surprised with how the third act wraps up. And that was the goal. We wanted to capture all those feelings and lock it into a 90-minute fun family adventure, to your point, that could then launch a franchise and launch a new business around what this film franchise is going to be. So, the reason I wanted to ask that is because I'm thinking about these examples, Teddy Ruxpin, Toys R Us, and what you said about finding that truth underneath them of what they represent. And what it reminded me of, honestly, was something from a different IP that turned into a movie, which was Barbie.

12:12Because I had a conversation with Richard Dixon, the then president of Mattel, who had been tasked with bringing Barbie back to life after sales had started going down for a number of years. and he said that his starting point is going back to first principles of like why was this brand relevant in the first place what did barbie represent to girls and then how do you take that message and that meaning and update it that is then now interestingly he's the ceo of gap and he basically says the same thing he's like when he came into gap it was a question of what made Gap relevant at the beginning?

12:52What is the first principle of Gap? And then how do you do that? So I feel like you're articulating something that's similar, that's interesting, and that applies across brands, whether we're talking about IP or not. But then, Dimitri, I'm stuck on the question of what on earth that was for Sonic. I mean, I was born in 1980. So I grew up with Sonic, right? Sonic on the original Sega Genesis came out when, I'm sure you guys know this off the top of your head. What year was that? Late 80s, early 90s? What was that? So Sega really burst into the scenes in the States, like 90, 91, 92 was like peak Sega.

13:30So I was between 10 and 12. And I remember why I loved Sonic at the time. And it was because it was this dynamic, fast paced, fun, like little weird world. But I'll be honest, as I try to think of what is the first principle of that that applies to that, I have no idea what it is. Like, I don't really know why my now 10-year-old loves Sonic, but he does. And so does the whole world. So you guys were right, but I can't figure out why you were right. And I would love to hear you explain like from a first principle standpoint of understanding why something is relevant now by understanding why it was relevant back then.

14:10Like what's the answer to something like that for a brand like Sonic? So for me, we're like the same age. I started with the Nintendo, like I'm sure you did. But Sega as a brand definitely spoke to me because it was kind of the anti-Nintendo of the attitude and the edge. And, you know, Sonic, I remember the first time playing that, like with my neighbors and like having this incredible like score, you know, the music and everything was fast and bright and just so the opposite of, you know, everything we had grown up playing on Nintendo. Yeah, I mean, Mario walks and Sonic zooms, and there was a distinction.

14:49It was like being on a roller coaster. But the business answer is there was going to be no conversation in the early 2010s about doing an adaptation with the Nintendo brand and their IP. The Mario movie had essentially been considered like a failed experiment. and Hollywood largely pointed to that and others as proof that there was a video game curse and we completely disagreed and we really wanted a case study to prove that if you found IP from the gaming world that people genuinely loved and you found talent, writers, directors, actors who loved it and treated it with the same care that you would treat a New York Times bestseller or, you know, any other piece of material, you could get a result that worked.

15:41Instead of just like throwing schlock together with producers who didn't play games and care about games, but we also knew for Hollywood to give that a chance, there needed to be a recognizable brand. You know, being able to get the support, you know, and get the village to do that in the right way. Yes, the goal was to make a great Sonic movie, but it was also to prove the general, you know, case study that it could work if you treated it the way you would treat any other piece of material. And that was kind of what we went in with. And if you look at the core of the Sonic 1 story, it's really an orphan story.

16:14You know, it's a kid who wants a family. And, you know, those are themes that, you know, my mom can relate to if she never played a Sonic game. You know, when you see him sitting on the counter and he has holes in his shoes, like you're seeing a child in that position and immediately you're connecting, you know, emotionally. And that's what we do with everything we adapt. It's like, even if it's big and spectacle, or if it's an intimate indie game, like we always want to tap into the heart and tap into those real emotions that you will feel regardless of whether or not you ever pick up a game controller or not.

16:51What is this about? What is it about? And why do you care? Mike, when we've talked about this over the years, every time I talk to you, I just keep throwing brand names at you. What about this video game? What about that video game? What is your guys' process? There's a world of dusty IP out there. I feel emotionally attached to some of it. I never know if anybody else cares. I keep suggesting Battletoads to you as something to be brought back. I have no idea if anyone else in the world even remembers Battletoads. How do you go hunting for these things? Mike, I want you to answer that, but Jason, I just want to tell you, if you and I were having a drink and I'm your friend, I'm saying, who gives a shit?

17:32If you care about it, that is the answer. If you care about it, fucking make it happen and make everyone else care. Seriously, we go into it in the most respectful way. We don't care what anyone else thinks. If we care about it, we're going to do what we need to do to make other people care about it. And sorry, Mike. No, no, no. And that is true. You have brought up Battletoads many times throughout the years, and we've been looking into it. I feel like we were getting stuck with one of the original owners. I don't know if it was like Arc Systems or Rare, but that is true. But to answer your other question about process, we were to ask ourselves a couple different questions.

18:12We want to think about, should this game be adapted? Should this IP be adapted, period? Then should this IP be adapted right now? and then if yes to the first two in what medium and for example maybe we believe Battletoads should be adapted but we believe that the best version is animated series and right now let's say animated television is not in a very excitable spot then maybe it is Battletoads but it's not right now 2025 that is something we keep a close eye on and as the marketplace changes that That could be a 2026 or 2027 exploration. Or sometimes it's maybe this shouldn't be adapted and it shouldn't be adapted because we've already seen it or because it's perfect in its current state or because no one on our team is super fired up about it.

19:06So we're always working through how best to be successful, not just for us, but for our rights holder. As the other issue we're always working through is we don't want to see a bad adaptation, nor do we want to hear about a bad experience. And if not us, for example, we try and guide the IP creators, the rights holders with other entertainment folk they should or maybe should not be talking to insofar as they're going to provide the smash and grab behavior of Hollywood yesteryear, which is sell it, don't smell it. It's having no awareness of what the game franchise is, not picking up a game controller in their lives.

19:46We just don't want those bad case studies to start occurring again and distract from this great moment. Right. And actually, what you were just saying there is probably the answer to this question. But as you were saying it, I bet a lot of people wonder, as I often do, when something that I loved comes back to life and then it's terrible. And I think, how did that happen? You guys know what is happening behind the scenes to make what is ultimately terrible renditions of things. Do people know it's terrible as it's being developed? Like, just how did these things get off the rails? Oof, there's so many extenuating circumstances that can come into play.

20:23So, for example, obviously everyone experienced COVID. COVID was quite harsh on the Hollywood ecosystem as the idea of making film and TV together. hundreds of strangers from around the world in a foreign country is not a great way to control a pandemic. So that had a net material negative effect on adaptations and the end product. Also on the Hollywood side, not the video game side, but the Hollywood ecosystem side, we had a dual writer strike and actor strike in 2023 that had a major negative effect on process and outcome. And we've also been seeing a ton of M &A in the Hollywood side where maybe a project started to move forward, an adaptation started to move forward with the best of intentions, but that was two companies ago.

21:09And the executives that were passionate had been switched out and it's more X amount of millions or tens of millions of dollars have been sunk into this adaptation. Let's just get it produced and let's get it out the door and get it off our balance sheet and start bringing money back in. So unfortunately, that's like business sometimes coming to play or larger ecosystem shifts that are changing where if you started in 2019 and you're so excited to make this live action show and you get to 2024 and it comes out and nobody cares and it disappoints, who is left that started the process? And hopefully, typically, at least the producers are left.

21:47But if the buyers, i.e. the television networks or the film studio streamers, have switched out their mandates or their exact structures. That's kind of what happens at times, unfortunately. And then also one other just question about the world that you guys operate in, which is, let's go back to Battletoads. You said one of the challenges with Battletoads is that one of the rights holders is whoever it is are hard to get a hold of or something. So I think people don't necessarily realize that the old IP they love may have been, what, sold a couple times, part of mergers, could be owned by multiple people, they don't get along.

22:26How complicated is the world of disentangling old beloved things? That is a great question. Your mileage may vary, but I will tell you, there is one beloved 80s IP that we've had incredible packages of talent floated our way around. Unfortunately, said IP has been sold, I think, four or five times with Japanese and U.S. lawyers still cannot rep and warrant that they have a clean chain of title to be able to close a deal. This is probably not what you're talking about. And I'm sure you may not be able to say what you're talking about. But I know because it's been in the news from time to time that like the California raisins is a classic example of sort of like endless lawsuits about who owns it.

23:10And it's just stuck in purgatory forever. So it's like this kind of stuff, right? Yeah, it's not that one. But yeah, that's a very good example. And, you know, when you deal with sometimes U.S., Japanese, U.S., like ownership going back and forth, it can create, you know, a bit of an issue on who actually owns what. and we're probably 98 % sure we are good to go. But, you know, a studio is not going to invest$100 million into we're probably sure. But I would say that's rarer than you like sometimes are pleasantly surprised where you think a big company owns something and then you find out somehow the original creator still owns it.

23:49But Mike, as a former agent, I mean, you probably have seen it all. Well, and by the way, I feel like we kicked the tires on California Raisins out of curiosity a couple of years ago. and it's like a right split. Someone popped up and brought it to us, but they didn't quite have the rights. Well, it's like split between like the state of California with the Calif. There's a California Raisin Marketing Board who I recall we talked to. But another great example is The Crypt Keeper and... Oh yeah, from that HBO show, Elvira? Yeah, it's from The Crypt Keeper. Those rights are split. There's actually supposed to be, if I recall, an M.

24:21Night Shyamalan show with Warner Brothers television pre-COVID since 2017, maybe 2016, and the Crypt Keeper is split from Tales from the Crypt, they would not agree to put it back together. And both partners were kind of stuck in limbo. So it really depends. Sometimes the pathways are very clean. Sometimes you have to follow the chain. Like one of the rights holders on Battletoads is now a Microsoft company, by the way, Jason, has Rare sold through into Microsoft Xbox. but that was, I think, one of five companies that was on the original 91 game. Unlike trying to track down a comic book or a tabletop board game or a book, games are quite complicated and they are oftentimes, most times, international.

25:09So we work through the process as what we're trying to figure out is specifically who has the audio visual rights, the TV and film rights. It's interesting in the games business, Hollywood is treated as an ancillary right. And conversely, Hollywood treats the games business as an ancillary right, but it's equally important to figure out where those rights sit so that you have a clean chain of title to move it forward and not a plethora of lawsuits that kill you the minute you announce you're putting something into development, production, or you're releasing it. Right, which I'm sure is what a crazy amount of landmines in just trying to track down something that used to give kids joy.

25:49It's a defensible moat for us, but it's not easy. We definitely warn people who decide they want to dabble in this space that it is not for the faint of heart. Mike and I definitely have earned our grace navigating some of these deals. Yeah, I bet. So, all right, let's go back to tactical, like what you actually do once you've gotten some IP and you're thinking about what to do with it. And maybe Toys R Us is a good example because Toys R Us is a toy store. To the degree that I can think of any kind of narrative around Toys R Us, it's just Jeffrey the giraffe. But I don't even remember if Jeffrey the giraffe did anything.

26:26I just remember that he existed. I certainly remember going to Toys R Us as a kid in suburban South Florida. And I don't know how large the store actually was, but from my vantage point as a small child, it was like Costco. It was just enormous. You know, it was so exciting to go there every time. But what the hell do you do with that? That's not a movie. So what do you do with something like that? To everything you just said. it was not just a toy store. It was the most magical place other than Disneyland that you could go to as a child. And, you know, it's endless toys. Obviously, you don't have endless financial resources.

27:02So it's like, while you're in there, you're in the magical world of all of these delicious things you would love to take home with you. And yeah, one of the common things we talk about when this comes up is everyone kind of like blacks out and goes to their memory of being in the store. And yeah, we have had other people who are like, yeah, I can still smell it too. Like it had that certain distinct smell. But Mike, this is your Teddy. It's been an interesting and exciting experience in case studies. I personally have been pursuing this since I was a manager before I was an agent. So this is almost 15 years of pursuit.