Turn Your Customers' Thoughts Into Amazing Products

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1:33There's no safe like SimpliSafe. From Entrepreneur Media, this is Problem Solvers, a show in which entrepreneurs do what entrepreneurs do best, solve unexpected problems in their business. We were completely wrong. And I'm just like, it's not selling. It was like, we have to start from scratch. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

2:21answer from someone who builds products at the highest level and whose products can literally change the course of someone's business. When we decide that we're going to go do something, even if it's like a new invention, something we haven't ever tried, we don't know if it's going to work, it's likely that we're going to have to stop doing something. That's the advice you don't expect. Because, you know, when you're focused on building a great product, you are in creation mode. You think more, more, more, better, better, better. But you need to also think about where are my resources best deployed?

2:55How do I prioritize what's most important? This is Mary Beth, and she thinks a lot about this because, like I said, she builds some pretty consequential products. My name is Mary Beth Westmoreland. I lead Amazon's global selling partner experience team. And what does that mean? My teams are the engineers, scientists, program product folks, all of the support associates. whose main job is making sure that our selling partners thrive, grow, and are successful in Amazon stores. And when Mary Beth says selling partners, that's Amazon's term for the millions of entrepreneurs who sell their products on Amazon.

3:32So let's say you run a coffee company and you sell your coffee beans on Amazon. Well, all the tools and levers that you use to do that, all the ways you optimize your listing, all the data you have access to, all the things that help you reach customers. All of that is created by Mary Beth's team. And she understands the stakes here are high. Her team's products have real, tangible, meaningful impacts on millions of businesses, which means her team needs to be incredibly thoughtful about the new things they build, which really means that her team needs to be incredibly thoughtful about where they put their energy, which is why new products must replace old products.

4:14And the whole point is, momentum can be very dangerous. There's only so many hours in the day, so how are you going to spend it? It's the same basic question that we ask our teams is what's the most important things that we need to do, that we need to spend time on, the problems that we need to solve in order to make the biggest impact for our selling partners. And sometimes that means that we're going to have to stop doing things that are not going to make the most difference. And if you want to understand how a company like Amazon builds great products? Well, this is just the beginning. So let me back up for a minute and give you some context.

4:50Amazon, as you may know, is a famously customer-centric company. In a shareholder letter one year, Jeff Bezos wrote this great thing. I love it. I'm going to quote it. Quote, customers are always beautifully, wonderfully dissatisfied, even when they report being happy and business is great. Even when they don't yet know it, customers want something better and your desire to delight customers will drive you to invent on their behalf, end quote. But usually, when people talk about this customer-centric approach for Amazon, they're thinking about the end consumers. We talk about customers, you know, the people who buy the coffee beans on Amazon.

5:31They're the customers that Amazon is so focused on. But of course, as we know, as we've just established, Amazon is also a marketplace where businesses, and especially small businesses, sell to customers, like the entrepreneur who sells the coffee beans. And these small businesses also must be served, which means they must be heard and engaged. And then, as Jeff Bezos says, their reactions must drive Amazon to invent on their behalf. And I really wanted to know, how does Amazon learn from its sellers? How does it take this ethos of listening to customers and systematize it at an incredible scale, because frankly, that is something that everyone could learn from, no matter how large or small your business is.

6:13But when I sat down to talk with Mary Beth, I quickly learned that to her, this simple question is not actually just a question of customer feedback at all. It is really a holistic question. It's a question of discipline and priorities and leadership. And she started telling me things like, if we want teams to be great, solve problems, take ownership, move fast, we have to find a way to be a part of the solution, but not be the one that hands it to them. Mary Beth is full of gems like that. So I'm really excited to play this conversation for you. We start with an exploration of how leaders can create impactful teams and foster a culture of risk-taking and deep engagement.

6:57And then you'll hear how it all plays out in a big product change that Amazon recently made. This is really a masterclass on how great leaders create great teams to create great products. And let's start the conversation, well, by picking up where we first started. Marybeth was telling me about how in order to create great new products, her team also needs to decide which old ones to let go of. And I'd asked her for an example of when the last time she did that was. And she said, we do that all the time. We do it every day. We call it mechanization at Amazon. We have mechanisms. So we have cycles that we go through where we assess all of our work and the investment that we're making.

7:38But on a very frequent basis, I mean daily basis, we are inspecting. Like are we really driving the results that we want through the programs that we create? And that's a really important thing. But then the other thing I would say is it's not going to be me making the decisions all the time. It should be the teams that are closest to the work and closest to the customer and closest to the problem. Like we don't tell them what to do. We tell them, here's the problem to go solve. They figure out how to do it. So that's the most important thing. And if they're not, you know, you always, I really think that this whole thing of like fail fast is very contrived.

8:10So I don't like to use that. But if we're not taking chances and trying stuff, and then with that comes, we're going to abandon stuff like your podcast that you talked about. Like if we're not saying, hey, this didn't work, then one of two things is happening. The first thing is that we're just getting everything right and hitting all cylinders all the time. And we know that's not true. So let's just like throw the first thing out. The second thing is that we're getting too attached to our own solutions, which is playing it too safe, is not the right way to look at things. With risk, it's going to come like the whole concept of, I know I'm highly invested in this solution.

8:48It's not working. So I need to step back and say, my baby's ugly. I need to do something different. And I think that's a really powerful thing. It's a really hard thing for a human to do. I want to say it back to you because what you said is so important. We're getting too attached to our own solutions. Oh, yeah. Because ultimately, the thing I think people in business can forget because we're so solutions oriented, we're in business to create a solution, is that nobody cares about a solution. What they care about is an outcome and a benefit. That's right. I mean, I'm a technologist and I always say this, like technology for me is like so fun.

9:20I love it. I love playing with it. But technology doesn't matter if it doesn't have a practical, beneficial application. And we talk about that a lot on my teams, is that we have to know enough about technology to know what it's capable of. You have to have those amazing people who are so passionate about science and engineering that they can look at something and say, wow, let me think about what's possible and marry that with what's practical, like how to solve the problem. So you don't want to take that fully out of the equation, but it has to be balanced, for sure. Before we talk about how you're hearing from customers and then integrating that insight into the decisions that your team is making, let me ask you one other question going back to something you said a minute ago, which was you said, you know, it shouldn't be you making all these decisions.

10:05It should be your team. They're the ones that are closer to it. But you, as the leader, have to create an environment where people feel empowered to make those decisions. Tell me how you're doing that. Well, I mean, first of all, the Amazon culture really starts with the leadership principles. And everything that we do really ties back to what you just said. It's things like one of our leadership principles is disagree and commit. And that means every single person. That showed up in one of Jeff's investor letters. You've got to do that. So that means that you come to the table every day. That could mean just showing up at your desk.

10:40It could mean going to a meeting. But if you have a thought that's different than what everyone else is saying, it's your job to weigh in and say, I disagree. right because what we're doing is hard right and like we want to you know convene this like group of people with very different ideas so that we can really share and start to inspire each other maybe even think about things none of us thought about before and just for people who aren't familiar with the phrase disagree and commit let me start to summarize it and then you pick it up in the way that it like manifests the amazon culture so disagree and commit is in contrast to agree to disagree.

11:17So if you're agreeing to disagree, then what you're basically saying is like, all right, fine. I think that you're wrong, but we're just going to agree to move on. At which point nothing is really resolved or settled. And in some way, you know, maybe Mary Beth, if I think that you're wrong, but fine, we're going to move on. We'll agree to disagree. Then I'm like, there's a little part of me that's just kind of hoping it's going to fail. Or you might go say, hey, it wasn't my idea. It was Mary Beth's idea. We all know how Mary Beth is, right? Right. So disagree and commit is is an invitation to and in fact a mandate to during the discussion process before a decision is made disagree and be open about that disagreement.

11:53But then when a final decision is made, everybody commits to executing the final decision because there is trust that the decision was made in the best faith and that we all need to support it in order to move it forward. It's exactly right. Right. So it's almost like there's another version of this that I heard recently from the head of product at LinkedIn, which is we may be wrong, but we're not confused. Yeah, that's exactly right. You also talked about the trust part. That's another one of our leadership principles is earns trust. And all of us have to earn trust every day as a leader. Like you asked about, like, how do I create the environment where teams can thrive and like feel ownership and ownership, another leadership principle.

12:39But it's through our culture. Amazon creates these leadership. We talk about it in every doc we write, in every meeting, in every one on one. Like it's how we interview people. It's how we do performance evaluations. It is part of how we do our job. So it's hard for me to even talk about how do we do that because it's just entrenched in our culture. Maybe a way to talk about it, and I know I keep extending getting to the customer stuff, but this is so interesting. Maybe the way just to hear you articulate it is can you remember having to adopt it at first or adapt to it when you first arrived at Amazon?

13:17That's a great question. No. I mean, I think that the first, well, the first foray with Amazon was my interview process and it was all framed up by the leadership principles. And then when you step into a building, you just feel it and it just becomes very real. It's not something that's like a bunch of letters on a wall someplace. I mean, it's how we work. Yeah. And it just works. Yeah. And then back to the, I just want to finish one thing on the team part of this is that, I mean, you have to go in further though. And my job is helping the team succeed. Yeah. So in doing that, we can't give teams these solutions.

13:56We can't say, go do these five things. If we want teams to be great, solve problems, take ownership, move fast, we have to describe the problem and then let them connect with the customer, the users, understand it more deeply, ask the five whys, and then own it and then iterate and learn. You have to kind of find a way to be a part of the solution, but not be the one that hands it to them. Oh, that's a great distinction. You have to be a part of the solution, but you can't dictate the solution. Because if you do, it becomes a matter of... Well, finish that. If what? If you do? Well, because if you do, then you're shifting the incentives for your team.

14:46because if you start saying, here is the solution you should build, then the incentive for your team becomes build whatever Mary Beth wants because success at this company, therefore is just accomplishing whatever Mary Beth said. It's execution. It's execution, right. And like, where's the thinking in that? And where's the fun in it? Like, I don't know. As an engineer, I never liked being, and by the way, I've had some of these types of bosses. Everyone has. Go do this. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. But like that did not feel great. No. I'm like, I have great ideas and I would like to try something else.

15:21And that's just not great. No, that's not great at all. By the way, also, I'm never the smartest person in the room. You don't want me to be. You don't want me to be the one to go and say, here's what you should go do. Like I would like to have an opinion. But like an opinion, just like everybody else that's, you know, has a stake in it and cares. It has a passion for something. I remember becoming editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur and then discovering that things that I said in team meetings were taken differently than before. So whereas before being editor-in-chief and I was just, you know, I rose up as an editor at different magazines and you have these iterative conversations and you say, maybe we should do this or maybe, I don't know, maybe about that.

16:05It's law now. And then it's law. And then you say it and then everyone just does it. And it's terrible. And so I had to teach myself to shut up a lot more. And then when I did raise an opinion to couch it as much as possible in, I don't know if this is a good idea. I'm not sure that this is the right answer, but here's something to consider. And, you know, none of that works. The best thing that you can do is you can find people on your team who are going to be comfortable disagreeing with you because they've found that it's beneficial to do so. Right. I mean, if somebody disagrees with you and they are punished for it, they will never, ever disagree with you again.

16:45Oh gosh, it's horrible, isn't it? But if you allow for that and you reward it and someone disagrees with you and you say, that's a great idea, you should do that instead, then you've incentivized them to do so. So the reason I share that is to ask you, like, what strategies do you have or how have you figured out the best way to be part of the solution but not dictating the solution? Well, you just talked about a few of them. Like, those are great leadership behaviors. You know, say I'm not sure when you're not sure and invite other people into the conversation. and another thing that we do well at Amazon is be vocally self-critical show up as a human being and say I screwed up if you create a safe space for others to do that like can you imagine like having a comfortable place to say you know what I tried this I screwed up I need some I need help with something then the team is going to move faster it's going to create this culture of ownership and then you level the playing field you create just be you like you're a human being yeah and it sounds to me like you're doing all the right things i appreciate that i just sat down here for validation for you so i appreciate it um can you let let's we've been talking kind of high-mindedly about about leadership and i'd be interested to just hear you tell a story about how this plays out and resulted in a specific thing so for example Well, here we are at Amazon Accelerate.

18:23You and I both just came up from the opening session where a whole bunch of new products were announced. All of that stuff comes out of this process in some way or another, right? Trying to understand what customers or sellers would want more, which is really about outcomes and benefits that maybe they're able to articulate and maybe they're not. but then trying to figure out what is the right solution for them, even though, of course, they don't care about solutions. They care about outcomes and benefits, but those come through solutions. And then making sure that you as a leader aren't just dictating what that solution is.

19:00So it is really all the things that we've been talking about. Can you just pull out one and almost take me through the story of it? Yeah, happy to. Thank you. So, you know, 60 % of Amazon sales come from independent sellers. And of those, the majority are small and medium sized businesses. So I'll just set the context for you. Sure. These are folks who work really hard. Yeah. They have big jobs to do. They create great products and then they have to figure out like, okay, now I have to list my product. Maybe I want to promote my product. I have to create content. I need to figure out how much inventory I need.

19:43I need to figure out how to inbound it. I need to manage it. Like, are the sales what I expect? Am I profitable? You name it, right? It's exhausting. It's a lot of work. And so we learned from sellers that they want simple. Like the ability for us to be able to create solutions to drive the outcome of I can manage my business easily and I can thrive and grow is where we started. And so that's what my team focuses on every day. We wake up thinking about it. We're very passionate about it. And so we kind of heard that through different, like lots of different channels. But I think that like the most important thing is we work back from the selling partner.

20:33Like rather than us coming up with a solution first, we heard a lot of noise from selling partners about the rich tools that we have, which are great, but take some time. I'd rather find, I want to find more time in my day. How can we help them? We, the first thing that we did was spend time with them. And actually, just to tie what you just said before you go to the next, just to tie what you just said to something that you were talking about earlier, which is if you have the greatest solutions in the world, but they're not easy to use or they're not addressing someone's very specific problem, then they're useless.

21:07Right. So if you here you have if you have great solutions, but people can't use them for whatever reason, because they're too busy to learn how to use them because they're they're they already have 17 other things that they got to worry about. And then this is the 18th. Then it's then even if it does solve their problem, it doesn't solve their problem. Yeah, you're right. I mean, and if their problem is, like you said, I'd like to save time if I make them say, well, that's great. Go to this two week training course and learn this tool and then it's going to be great. I promise. Like that's not going to help them either.

21:35Yeah. So you said anyway, so to take you back. So you spent time with them. Yeah. Like, for example, I went and just sat with a seller. I said, hey, you know, can I just come and sit next to you and just watch what you do? How do you work? You mean just like just like in their office? Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, like it's like asking a question. Sometimes someone's like, wow, maybe they want to know this or maybe I should answer it this way. I didn't want any of that. I just wanted to sit next to a selling partner and just watch. Like I wanted to see the complexity. I wanted to see. And it was amazing.

22:05And she's amazing, this brand that we work with here locally in Seattle. She asked me to come in. I just sat next to her. And I looked at her monitor. And there were like five different windows up, three different spreadsheets, two different tools. She has three different things going on and post-it notes around her monitor. And I'm like, okay, this is a good start. I'm learning a lot from this experience. So just watching how she spent her time. The other thing is like, what's most important to her? So just observing, kind of fly on the wall, I learned a lot about what matters most. So we started there, just watching how our selling partners do their job.

22:45But then we did a few other things. We brought in voice of the seller panel. So we bring in brands and sellers. When we kind of hone in on certain focus areas where we think that there's a pain point or an opportunity for them, we're like, okay, we need to go deeper. Just come talk to us. Or we'll go out and talk to them and interview them. The other thing we did is one of my teams is selling partner support. It's an amazing team. Their whole job is there to help sellers be successful whenever they need help. And there's a lot of artifacts that come from that. So shadowing a support associate, listening to someone's pain on a phone call is so motivating.

23:20It will make me lose sleep, but it's also so incredibly telling. So shadowing associates, listening to seller's pain points. We listen to the product. We ship product and then we just listen, meaning we watch what sellers do. To your point, will they find a new feature? Will they use it? If they use it the first time, will they come back and do it again? Meaning do they find it valuable? Do they complete the task effectively? Do they get the outcome they want? Do they do it within a certain amount of time or does it take them an hour to do it? All of those things are really great feedback mechanisms for us to know are we on the right track.

23:55I could go on, but there's many others. That's great. I'm curious, the layer underneath all this, how do you store and use all this information? You're gathering a ton of data. Some of it is anecdotal. Some of it is data-driven. Some of it is user behavior. How do you make sense of it? I just love that you asked that question. I mean, Amazon, I think, is just stellar. In my world and all the companies I've worked in, Amazon does the best job of making data right in the forefront actionable. And we do that a couple of days. One way that my team does it is we have a weekly mechanism. It's a weekly meeting where most of those data and analytics and voice of customer we review.

24:39We walk through it together. We look at what's happening. And then we actually tie the outcomes to it, too. Like, is it having the right qualitative and quantitative outcomes that we expect to? That's fantastic. Okay, so let's keep going in this story. Which I didn't really start well, did I? No, no, that's great. It's great. I mean, what you gave me is like fantastic background for the system through which something is going to come out. So I'm just curious if you could maybe just introduce a specific pain point that came out of this research and then like draw a line to how you create some end product.

25:12So the pain point, which I started on, was the ability to simply run my business and save time. So we came at this of how do we make the existing very rich seller central experience that is just manifest with all kinds of tools and features simpler. And we make great progress. I mean, we changed the nav. We lit up actions in one single pane. We simplified some of the dashboards. I mean, we were making progress, but the teams kind of came and said, we don't feel great about making step function change for our selling partners. Their idea was step back from this whole thing and what can we invent?

25:53And this is the question they asked. If we were going to start again tomorrow, not having anything that we have or knowing really anything that we know today, how would we develop on behalf of our selling partners? This is sunk cost thinking, right? Exactly. Getting away from sunk cost thinking. It's exactly that, yeah. And that's what they did. They started to build fresh with nothing. And we started with mocks, designs. Looks very different than the existing Seller Central experience. And the metaphor that they started with is don't force a selling partner to have to navigate away. Give them the information that they need and then the actions that they need to take with all of the recommendations that we know as Amazon in a single pane that looks and feels simple.

26:40And so that's where we started. That's a really hard thing to do, by the way. I just own that and just say, I know what I just described. It's not easy. But we started there and we got a lot of stuff wrong. We started with like, let's give them all the details of every action and let's give them this like left nav pane that gives them a hundred different choices about how they want to go solve it. And we're like, yep, no, scratch that. We're going to come back to it. It needs to be simple. Let's just give them one and give them the ability to go deeper when they need to. So anyway, that learning for us, we're still on this journey, but that is something that we're announcing this week, this next generation of experimental experiences that we're building for our sellers to make it simple for them.