Using Telecommunications to Help Solve Crimes

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1:33There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Hey, Problem Solvers listeners. Today, I am playing an episode from another podcast that I think you'd like. It's called Side Hustle to Small Business. It's created by Hiscox. In the Side Hustle to Small Business podcast, they talk about, well, exactly that. strategies for starting a business on the side with lessons from people who did it successfully. And today I'm playing you an episode about an entrepreneur who had a very special skill. He can analyze telephone records and he turned that skill into an incredible company that has helped solve 200 criminal cases.

2:12Wow. Listen to the Side Hustle to Small Business podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. New episodes every Wednesday and you can hear one right now. Welcome to the Side Hustle to Small Business podcast, powered by Hiscox. I'm your host, Sanjay Parikh. Throughout my career, I've had side hustles, some of which have turned into real businesses. But first and foremost, I'm a serial technology entrepreneur. In the creator space, we hear plenty of advice on how to hustle harder and why you can sleep when you're dead. On this show, we ask new questions in hopes of getting new answers. Questions like, how can small businesses work smarter?

2:49How do you achieve balance between work and family? How can we redefine success in our businesses so that we don't burn out after year three? Every week, I sit down with business founders at various stages of their side hustle to small business journey. These entrepreneurs are pushing the envelope while keeping their values. Keep listening for conversation, context, and camaraderie.

3:18Today's guest is David Walker. David is the owner of iSell Consulting, LLC, a consulting firm specializing in media relations, compliance, and wire telecommunications. He lives just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. David, welcome to the show. Welcome. Glad to be here, Sanjay. So I'm excited to have you on because there's a lot of interesting aspects of your background background that I've actually had the good fortune of being able to touch upon over the years. But before we get into all of that, give us kind of a two-minute background on you and what got you to where you are today. That's a big question.

3:55My college days were spent near the Macon, middle Georgia area. I graduated from college with an MBA in business management. So I went from there into the AT &T world of telecommunications, starting with Southern Bell and going to Bell South Pobility, then Bell South Corporate, then Bell South Sailor, and ultimately back to AT &T. So where my career started in 1978 with Southern Bell and under the AT &T umbrella, I finally wound up 38 years later with AT &T and that on my paycheck. So it's kind of interesting how that evolved. But I wound up in the AT &T Southern Bell department in a network organization, which was not my intention with a business degree.

4:39But nonetheless, that's where I was. And I managed to kind of work my way up through the ranks in that department because it was very interesting to me how the technology worked from the landline world into finally the wireless world, which is where I wound up. But it was really a good evolution for a career real balance to see all the things happen. I know we were just talking earlier about technology with devices, you know, to see that people using their cord phones in the wall. And then the neat thing was to have your home phone be a cordless phone. That was a big deal. But then you went from that to having cordless things in your car, plane or boat.

5:14Doesn't matter. You're wireless everywhere you go. So that's the new world we're in. It's really exciting to see how that's going to go. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what was it that originally drove you to get a job in telecom? Why did you make that move? Well, that's a very good question. My father, who was also a career telephone, well, not an engineer, he was a marketing guy, but he was in the telephone business with Southern Bell for 30 years. And then also my brother was a 30-year man and my sister was a 10-year person in telecommunications with Southern Bell. So the whole family's got cone bell-shaped heads for how we evolved in that world of technology.

5:59So my father told me to come to Atlanta, get home with Southern Bell, take any job they've got. And the job that I took was as a clerk inside a network organization. So that's how I started network engineering in a company where I had no clue what they did. Then it just evolved from there. I'm imagining you had never done and never learned anything about network engineering or anything else like that in college. No, there was no real training for that. And even in the wireless world when cell phones started to kick around in 1983 and 1984, the only way engineers learned the technology was from the vendors who made the equipment.

6:37So Motorola, AT &T, Ericsson, Astronet, those companies taught us how to use their equipment in our network. And that's how we became wiser and more bold. So, I mean, thinking back to those days, did it seem like those vendors actually knew what they were talking about or were they just groping around in the dark too? Well, these engineers from these companies were previous landline builders of equipment. So when they converted a switch, for example, a telephone switch, which is the kind of hub of the wheel, when you build those in the wireless world, there's no difference between the wireline switch and the wireless switch.

7:17It's just how the information gets out of the building. So in one case, it goes through wires in the wireline world and the wireless goes through an antenna at the top of a tower. But all the equipment infrastructure is basically the same. So those people were trained on their equipment in a wireless and wireline world simultaneously. Yeah. OK, so you spent a long time in the Bell system and then landed back. You know, AT &T, it's an interesting thing, right? They broke it apart in the 80s and then it just kind of reformed later on. Yes. And then you ended up coming back to the mothership there.

7:53So in leaving there, was this your first time doing something entrepreneurial or had you done something entrepreneurial before, like in college or when you were younger? No, this was definitely the first time. It's just, you know, in my world, you hire on with a company, you stay there. There was no moving company, company, company like it is today with young people that are able to take their talents and shape them into different jobs or careers that they want to make. In my old world, it was like you're a tired, not tired, but an embedded kind of person to grow through the business, however you want to make it through.

8:31But what I was going to say was a lot of people left the company, would go on to other consulting jobs. So my inclination was when I retired is to find some part of my career that I did very well or thought I did very well, maybe parlay that into an extra career outside the company. So others had done it. I just kind of followed their suit, formed an LLC for$400 with the state of Georgia, and I was on my way. Yeah. And what made you make that move? Was it just you'd been at AT &T long enough in the system? You just wanted to retire and kind of do a little bit of work? Or what was that thought process?

9:07Kind of the latter part. They offered a retirement package. So there was kind of an attractive time to leave, knowing that that might be the last package or incentives to get people out of the business. So I just took advantage of that and then formed the company after six months of being out of the business to reenter. Yeah. So, OK, so you start a consulting firm on your own. Are you still a one man shop? Yes. So how has that been in terms of starting this? Like, what were your challenges that you ended up facing early on? Well, total control is a nice thing, but you know it also can be kind of strenuous at times.

9:48So I was able to just manage the work as I wanted it. ATT told me that as the cases come in for what I was doing for them, if I didn't want to do the case, I could decline and then move on to the next one. So they worked with me pretty well with that. So it was not hard to do and navigate. Yeah. So, yeah. So what was it that you were doing? So you started consulting and you were working back for AT &T again. Yes. So my expertise at the end of my career was being able to look at telephone records that were created by our billing department. So every customer in our business obviously has a bill they pay every month, whether it's bills for text messaging, voice or data.

10:28And those three things were the pieces of information that were on this massive document that would go to the customers for them to pay. In the world of criminology, when people out there doing bad things, they use their phones, they use their devices. And the law enforcement people are able to take those records, find the individual's name, find the individual's numbers that were called or dialed, and then track that back to where that person might have been had they been holding the phone during the commission of a crime, for example. So my first case I had was in South Georgia where someone had done something wrong and they wanted to know where they had come from to arrive at where the crime scene was.

11:10And I was able to use the telephone records to track this individual and the phone all the way back to South Carolina. So our phone records showed cell site by cell site by cell site by cell site to the town of South Georgia and where the crime occurred. And they put two and two together with this individual having the phone and owning the phone and his records indicating that to where the crime occurred and the time and date stamp that was associated with it. And we convicted that person pretty quickly. So was this you were working for AT &T as a consultant or for law enforcement? I was working for AT &T.

11:44So I was their custodian of record. That was my title. So I was the person who would interpret the records and share that information with people who didn't completely understand it. And the district attorney's office or the defense for that matter, and help the court as a whole understand how these records were created and used to track phones that happen. I mean, phones as they occur in the network. Right. Super fascinating. So AT &T would be a part of these proceedings because they were the service provider and so they would be subpoenaed or whatever. And so they would send you to show up for them and kind of explain what's going on.

12:22Exactly. Okay. And was this a, so for you, how many years did you do this and are you still doing it? I did for seven years and then kind of semi got out of it again in 2022. So I'm waiting on that next big event for me to get back in. But right now I'm sort of skating out of the business. And so in those seven or so years, how many cases would you imagine that you've gone on for AT &T? I probably worked on over 200 cases. Wow. So there's a lot. You know, half the cases would usually get resolved before my appearance, you know, plea bargain, plea deals, because obviously when the evidence is presented to the defense in the way that it was, it's pretty clear that the individual that we're looking at had some proximity to where a crime and date and time it occurred and therefore makes it pretty evidential, although circumstantial, they might have been involved.

13:20Right. Okay, so this is interesting. So you had this consulting business that you started, and was it only AT &T that was your client, or was there anybody else? No, I did on occasion represent other carriers if they let me, whether it was Sprint or Verizon. Phone records in general are pretty much standard. I mean, how the information is transmitted to the cell site, to the telephone switch, and then back to the database where the billing records are created, all that's kind of a standard thing. The format may be different slightly, but nonetheless, the information is all there. So there was a few cases where I did other types of billing, whether it was even landline, for example.

14:00I did a landline case for credit card fraud. And then other cases, what might have been for Sprinter 18 Verizon, I kind of helped out with them. Support for this podcast comes from Hiscox, committed to helping small businesses protect their dreams since 19. Quotes and information on customized insurance for specific risks are available at Hiscox.com. Hiscox, business insurance experts.

14:32So this is interesting. So you really had kind of one major client. Did this worry you in terms of income and having a throughput? Or was it steady anyways? And you're like, there's always going to be cases. So it doesn't really matter if it's only one client. I knew there was always going to be cases because it would get busy at different times of the year. Toward the end of the year, it was pretty busy because people were trying to wrap up cases before the closeout of a calendar year. So usually November and December were kind of heavy. January, February timeframes were a little easier. And again, I can pick and choose which cases I want to support.

15:08And there are other individuals in the company that do what I do. So I was not the only custodian of record representing AT &T in the United States. There were a number of others who also did it. So how is it that you picked cases that you wanted to work on? Was it like locations that you wanted to visit? Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of it. Certain airports that I've been in, I don't want to go back to. I feel you. There's certain airports I never want to go to either. This is difficult to maneuver in the time and the weather. It was not fun. So if I wasn't having fun and enjoying it, then there was really no need to do it.

15:46But some of them were. I mean, I went from California to New York, to South Florida, to Texas. I've been around the country. Even Alaska was one case that was quite a tremendous burden in Juneau, Alaska, where I had to fly into Seattle and puddle jumper from Seattle up to Juneau and then Juneau back to Seattle and Seattle back. I mean, you're changing time zones. It's crazy. It is crazy. That wore me out. So I knew then I said, this might need me to slow down a little bit. Yeah, no more Alaska cases. No. At that point, you didn't happen to see the Northern Lights while you were there, did you?

16:19I did not. Oh, man, that would have been the icing, at least on the cake, of like, you go through all that pain, at least you get to see the Northern Lights. Yes. Juno is too far south, I think, to be able to see those. So, okay, you mentioned before, like, you're the one in charge, and you get to do all the decisions and everything. Was there anything that made you nervous about doing this? Or was it all like, hey, this is just for fun on the side? It was for fun on the side. I mean, that was my attitude toward it, except obviously very serious, of course, what I was doing. But nonetheless, at my age and my time in the business, there was really nothing I hadn't seen that was worrisome.

16:59So it was just something you had to do. And you just understood clearly what you're presenting to the court. As long as you stay on track, there's no issues, really. Yeah. Do you ever remember a time when you were stumped on the witness stand? Like something came across that you were like totally not expecting? Yeah, there was one time. And I had to pause and ask for recess while I went to the phone and called my AT &T compliance people and said, this is happening now. This is the record they're asking. Here's how they're posing it. What do you recommend? And so they walked me through information that I needed to provide back to the court.

17:35and I did it real easily that way. But yeah, I was definitely stumped a few times. Okay, interesting. For most people, I think that would be a nerve-wracking experience. I mean, but you know, like for you, as the custodian of record or the witness, like it's not like you're going to go to jail at the end of it. So I guess a little bit lighter stakes than whoever else is there. um okay let's kind of switch gears a little bit uh and talk about kind of health and wellness you did a lot of traveling probably for these cases kind of in and out and having to be in a suit and tie and sitting in a courtroom so probably i've seen a lot more cases than any of the rest of us have um how did you manage like the stress of all that and kind of everything else in life How did you manage that?

18:28Well, I prepared myself. Obviously, having done it a few times ahead, you know the next case is going to be this, and you know what to expect. The worst part of everything that we did was, or I did rather, was the waiting. You had to wait for the witness ahead of you to finish, and then they go to recess, and then they go back to that witness. They drive a little more, then they go to lunch. And then by the time they've done all this, it's just a long time sitting. There was one case in Atlanta where the defendant spoke Portuguese, and that was his primary language. And he understood a little bit of English.

19:04So the prosecution was asking the defendant questions, and he was struggling to answer. So the defense for this person said, y 'all got to get an interpreter in here. And so they said, hang on. And they went outside the court, made some calls, and they found an interpreter in Atlanta who speaks fluent Portuguese and brought this person in to interpret. So when they got seated, the judge asked for their declaration paperwork that said they're official and are capable of understanding Portuguese and then translating it. They didn't have the paper. So we had to wait another two hours for them to create a document to go back to certify this person on the stand.

19:40And then, of course, you imagine that drags the trial out twice as long because every word that's said by the prosecutor of defense had to be re-said in Portuguese and back and forth, back and forth. It took twice as long. So I'm out. It took me about eight hours that day in court, sitting around just waiting for this all to happen. Just waiting for your turn. Yeah. Around five o 'clock, I got pulled in. So I was very happy I got pulled in at the end of the day, but it was rush hour by then here in Atlanta. Not fun. Yeah, exactly. How long was it for your testimony for that case, if you remember?

20:12You know, that was an amazing thing. Sometimes I was on the stand for 40 to 50 minutes. Other times, two minutes. Oh, wow. And then, yeah, some of these I flew to California one time. I was on the stand total of five minutes because the way the prosecution would present my evidence and me as an expert to the court, they really didn't have anybody expert on their side to challenge what I said. So rather than embarrass themselves, they just deferred or defaulted whatever prosecution submitted me as. But a lot of times it was pretty quick. That day I think I was on the stand for 10 minutes. that that feels like it should have been something you phoned in yeah uh then fly out all the way to california exactly just for that i did a few i did do a few teleconference cases which was interesting because court people are not really good at audio visual things either so we kind of struggle from different times with zoom back in the day to try to make these cases work yeah i can't figure out if it's better for you uh which way because uh if you don't fly out there you don't get the frequent flyer miles and the hotel stays and all those perks.

21:20But man, it's pretty painful to get those perks and just all the time. And then knowing you were only on stand for like five or 10 minutes, it's just like, why did we do all of this? Do you have, when you go on the road for these things, do you have any kind of routine? Do you try to make sure you find a good restaurant near the courtroom so that when you're dragging out all day, you don't have a bad lunch? Like what's your routine there? Most of the time, the district attorney offices that we appeared at would provide the housing. So the hotel and then, you know, a dollar amount for your meals was how they presented to us.

21:53So I was usually booked in a hotel of their choosing, which was always, you know, something mid-range to nice, so no issue there. But obviously someone near the courthouse so I could get there by walking or they pick us up usually and take us to court. Right. Anything about the food? Because I imagine And do courtrooms have, courthouses have cafeterias? Some do, and that's kind of the low end of things. And then you have to worry about what you want to eat in a cafeteria like that. So what's the safest thing I can get without getting poisoned?

22:30So would you eat at the courthouse or would you go elsewhere? Based on the time. So if I had a time short, I'd eat there. If I not, I'd walk down the street to something I could trust. Right. Right. Yeah. You don't want to get back and find out that you're in contempt of court for not being there on time and get thrown in jail. That's the bad way of, well, I'm sure there's worse ways of ending up in jail, but that's a really unfortunate way. It definitely is. Definitely. So thinking back kind of on your career and just moving on and doing this as kind of a side hustle, it sounds like, entrepreneur, is there anything that you would go back and do differently?

23:12You know, probably not. I mean, not off the top of my head, because everything that I did had been from doing it before and seeing how it worked out for me. And the advantage of AT &T's consulting role was, I told you there were other people in the country that did it beside me. So I was able to work with the leadership team at AT &T Compliance to coach me in ways to answer certain questions because they've done it before too. So I always had a good bit of confidence in style and language and presentation and content with these people to help me understand how a particular audience might be at that moment.

23:51Obviously, some cases were the judge only, some were jury, some had a combination maybe of both. And again, trying to describe to a jury of lay people how a telephone system works is not the easiest thing to do so i had to break it down in the simplest of terms and then try to make sure i didn't over talk or talk too long like like that to make sure everybody understood the creation of the records and what they were intended to do and how we're using them now yeah do you feel like that's gotten harder or easier now as technology has progressed and people have gotten more acclimated to technology i think it's much easier now.

24:30There's software out there now that can scan these records and then plot all the towers that a telephone uses as they drive through any network at any date and time. They use that software now to show in court that phone XYZ was here, date, time, stamp, and length of conversation or text message and then make sure they associate it to the individual. If they can put those two together, that's pretty strong evidence that they were using the device in an area where the crime may have occurred. Yeah. I feel like, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, most regular people, cell phones were almost magical. You didn't understand any of the technology behind it.

25:14Now I think people do basically understand it, but there's other parts that are still magical that you don't understand. You know, like I told you on the, you mentioned your experiences as well. Well, in the case I had with credit cards, you know, the IP address was the indicator of where that person was using their device to log into a system that was extracting, you know, information about a person. And they were trying to say they weren't using, but, you know, obviously machine to machine connections with an IP address is pretty solid stuff. So people are getting more and more educated about that and sensitive to not using their device when they're committing crimes.

25:54But they usually forget. They're either so proud they did it or they got away with it that they call or do something to coordinate. There you go. I mean, I've seen cases where people will log into other people's Facebook account in the houses that they broke into and log into their account. I don't know why. Are you like posting at that? Is that the most urgent thing in the middle of a crime? But I don't know because I'm not a criminal. So I don't understand their thought patterns. um uh okay so um last question for you uh what would you tell someone who's thinking about taking the leap like you did um and starting a side hustle or small business doing consulting work like this i think i would i would do uh what i did in a similar way which is talk to people who have done it and that's kind of what we're doing now but but making sure that you understand the outcome of it potentially for your benefit and then what obstacles you may encounter.