Build Customer Loyalty Programs Like A Netflix PMM

27:26You know, we have surveys that go out that are a little bit more quantitative or focus groups. You know what I mean? People are so willing to give feedback, which I find is very astounding and super helpful for product marketers. I love that. I love that. I'm going to rattle off a couple other things that kind of come to my mind when I think about studying reasons why consumers cancel, especially just to kind of touch for my B2B SaaS marketers, I think sourcing sales call scripts to transcripts to see what's kind of happening there. Maybe even like before it gets to the cancellation point. So going back in history and figure out, okay, how did we get to this point?

28:05You know, they clearly were a customer at one point, but somehow we lost them. So how did we get from A to B? So picking maybe like a few marquee customers that you lost and trying to follow their entire customer journey. Like where was it starting to fall off? And any resources you have at your disposal to kind of guide you through that historic journey, I think would be super valuable as well. Okay. So step one was to understand why your customers are canceling to begin with. So what's next? What's step two? I would say double click into that data. Start identifying some of those different customer loyalty profiles or audiences.

28:44I think you named it like looking at some of those marquee folks can help create like lookalikes, right? And when you start thinking about those insights from step one and identifying those audiences, you can do that depending on your resourcing. But at Disney, luckily, we had some advanced modeling, people that are way smarter than me as it relates to data, where you can start seeing their behaviors and see how they engage or lack thereof with your product or service. For us, we identified, again, the loyal Disney fans who had really high engagement on Disney Plus and a lower propensity to churn, meaning less likelihood to churn, another fancy way to say that.

29:24And then the casual fans, so that low to medium engagement on Disney Plus and a higher propensity to churn. And we found that, hey, the latter is really going to be our target audience, but still understood that the loyal Disney fans would be secondary to that, just to continue fostering that strong connection between the consumer and the brand because they are our biggest advocates. So again, double clicking into the data and start creating some of these audiences or personas that you can then say, okay, these are the people, these are our target audiences that we're going after. And here's how we can tackle that.

30:00Yeah. So it's a classic segmentation. Like, okay, of all of our subscribers, including the ones we churn, this is interesting because you're applying basically a practice or exercise of segmentation that you would normally apply to basically the broader market. But instead, you're hyper-focusing it on specifically your customers, your paying customers. And then doing the segmentation to figure out like degrees of loyalty and reasons and value perceived behind each of those. So that as you're building out, I'm guessing where this is going, as you're building out the actual program itself, you can prioritize which of those segments are going to see the biggest return on that loyalty program.

30:48Nail on the head. Yes, exactly. Okay. So I'm learning, I'm learning, I'm going to be, I'm taking notes for my next loyalty program. I've never built one. So, okay. So then what's step three after I do this, like mini segmentation customer double click on customer data internally? Yeah, and this might be a little easier on the direct-to-consumer side, but when you think about loyalty, I think it's important to think about it beyond just the core product experience. You know, we like to think around product enhancements to improve loyalty and retention, saying like, oh, this feature is going to create less friction, therefore it's going to generate loyalty and retention.

31:28And while that's true, we knew that there was a price value issue and consumers wanted more value for the price that they were paying. And after the research, you know, we started to test specific offers to those specific audiences, right? Being able to segment the casual fans had very different wants and needs than the Disney loyal fans. So being able to test and validate our hypothesis with different rewards was super helpful, insightful for us. at the end of the day, our hypothesis was validated. But I do want to be clear that, you know, we still needed to make sure that whatever we were building was still heavily attributed back to streaming.

32:05So although we were giving rewards that may be outside Disney Plus, like, hey, we get free tickets to go to the parks or win a sweepstakes for National Geographic cruise, it was always tied back to Disney Plus. It was unlock this as a subscriber, right? We wanted the attribution because at the end of the day, we didn't want to end up in the consumer's mind of like, why is Disney plus offering this? This is so odd. So there has to, there had to be this correlation back to the Disney plus service. Um, so all of that was top of mind for us. Yeah. So I'm again, like I'm kind of translating, I'm trying to strip out the context and translate it back to if I'm in SaaS, that if I'm looking at this particular customer segment and I'm understanding what is the perceived value, let's take away the monetary value for a minute and actual business outcomes.

33:05Like what are they trying to get out of using my product and take the spirit of that and then try to understand what else can I offer them that can validate what they're trying to get out of my product or offering. And I'll put that monetary dollar amount back in, be like, okay, so it was just this that you were trying to get from being a subscriber and you like this. now I'm going to give you all these other things. And it doesn't, you know, it offsets my cost for XYZ reasons, but you're still paying the same amount, but now, but you have all of these other opportunities that just kind of validate the reasons why you became a subscriber in the first place.

33:49That's kind of how I'm imagining it. Is that kind of the right way to think about it? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And some interesting findings that we saw, I just want to like loop back around to an example is, you know, we had National Geographic content on service. We partnered with that team for, it was like, I think a seven day cruise to the Galapagos Islands, which is like one really cool. I wish I could, could have won that sweepstakes. Sounds amazing. Yeah. Right. And it was really interesting to see that one, we had a really high level of entries, but second to that, we saw a huge increase in National Geographic content being watched on service.

34:26So there's this, like, even though we're doing, we're thinking beyond the core product experience, as far as rewards, it was tying back to business objective of higher engagement on platform, which then ultimately reduces as well. Right, right. I love that. So the, again, like I'm going to repeat what you said that step three was like to think beyond the core product experience. And again, if I'm thinking of like how this would apply in like a, you know, a SaaS world, maybe beyond that product experience doesn't necessarily come from your partner, from your, from your internal company, but maybe it's a, it's a business partner.

35:05So I'm even imagining like if there are particular industries or use cases where you go to market with a particular partner, maybe there's ways that you can add partners into the mix to increase that perceived value. Exactly. So I really like that step of like, as you're thinking about crafting the actual loyalty program itself to think beyond that core product experience. Okay, so what's the next step here? I would say the next step is, this one is probably the most crucial is just evaluating speed resources and your strategic differentiation. So I'll keep this one short because I know we just spoke at length about this already, but I do think it's important to weigh all your possible options since no business is the same.

35:53Does it make sense for you to launch a loyalty program? The answer is not always yes. But again, we're all fighting for resourcing. We're always up against the clock to ship something. And what are the trade-offs for any decision you make? Do you have a set date that needs to be, it needs to be launched by, um, is it driven by leadership? Right. They set a date that you need to meet. That's all going to impact your decisions. Um, is it aligning to a larger brand moment or is the desire like what Disney plus was kind of be the first mover in this space. All of these are, are different forces that are kind of going to help you make, make the right decision.

36:29Um, do you have the resources internally to build something and maintain it? do you have the funds and the commitment from leadership right is this a top-down alignment or do you need to create that top-down alignment which is critical in order to be successful leadership needs to be bought in so again all these questions need to be answers but i don't it doesn't need to you don't need to do it in a silo again collaboration across the organization is so important one you get buy-in but most importantly number two you ensure that there aren't any blind spots in your decision. So you'll be surprised about how many partners we evaluated.

37:07I was like, oh yeah, this is the one, like, let's sign it tomorrow. And, you know, it came down to like an engineering spoke up and was like, we're not going to be able to integrate with them. Like this would be impossible. And like having those people in the room that are looking at it from a different lens was so critical. And again, for us, it came down to speed to market, limited resourcing and competing with company priorities. So, um, yeah, again, that was kind of all of that. And that kind of culminated into the decision, but again, evaluating speed, your resourcing, and then how are you going to differentiate yourself, um, with the competition?

37:51How do you, how are you going to make your program unique. So those are the way that I'm imagining your entire playbook built out. Here's how I'm thinking about it. Let me know if this jives with you. I'm thinking your step one was to just get immersed in the research thing. Why are you seeing churn, et cetera? Step two was like, okay, then that was that segmentation analysis of your existing customers. And then step three was to think beyond the core product experience as you're trying to dream out, okay, what does this loyalty program actually look like? I feel like your step four is actually in parallel to all of that.

38:28It's like, it's all of that wrapped up in like the true go-to-market strategy for this particular loyalty program. And it's a, I would, how I would do this would be like your step four is kind of happening simultaneously as you're doing all those other three steps, right? Like, and you're, you create that tiger team as you talked about doing at right? Like you create that tiger team and you're coming together with the analysis that you're doing and you know, you're having checkpoints, you're doing feedback loops, like kind of constantly as you're doing some of those, like some of that analysis.

39:03And especially for the dreaming up, like your step three, I can imagine that being so valuable to have like someone from products, someone from customer life cycle marketing, someone from, you know, engineering, Like everyone who would be part of bringing this loyalty program to the world could help enhance all of those, like your step one through three. What do you think of that? Like, is that something that you'd recommend that I do? Yeah, definitely. And again, I think this is all kind of the buildup to that moment. But I think there's like another step we're also missing is like the execution, right?

39:43Oh, yeah. so it's all great right i think minor things yeah just minor things right i mean you know your program's only going to be as successful as your execution and i think that's another important step to to consider um because i know we talked a lot about like the building of the program to be fair i did ask you how to build it to be fair but i think it would be a miss for us not to talk about this like step five essentially is like execution. And I can't come up with like a fancier title for this step, which he could probably do. But I think that's something that we noticed too, is you could have the best strategy in the world, but if you lack execution, that's where something can fail.

40:29So being really cognizant and have a plan in place, you know, not only what's your program strategy, but how do you get, how do you position this in the marketplace? Yeah. How do you message it? And how do you kind of keep the lights on after your launch? Right. So just some things to think about. Maybe that could be a whole nother episode of. Absolutely. After you build it, how do you market it? Yeah, we're gonna, we should do a part two. Okay, I want to ask you a few questions before we move on to the next segment. So I would be remiss not to not ask about this. So this program that you built at Disney Plus was a pre-AI, for the most part, initiative.

41:17How do you think about customer loyalty programs and managing customers' expectations in the new world that we're in today with AI just kind of like bombarding us on a daily basis. Every which way. I love it though. I will say AI is really enabling us to move faster and personalize experiences better than ever before. And I like to think of like pre-AI loyalty programs or experiences in general, like static images. They're fixed. They're one size fits all, probably a bit passive. um and then ai kind of transforms it all like you're now in this like live adaptive experience where things are like responding to your actions or it's more personalized and it's constantly evolving and like learning based off of your input and output um it really just enables us to build something that's a little bit more dynamic and custom so like my experience like if I could do this all over again, post AI, I would love to have something that's very tailored to that individual person.

42:31So L you could log in a Disney plus and get a whole different experience than if I logged in into Disney plus, um, the program or even the experience in general. And I don't know, it's just truly remarkable that the, the, the pace at which AI is helping evolved product experiences. And I know AI had a bad rap for like a minute. People are just like, what is this thing? I think it still kind of has a bad rap, but it also has a very hopeful, you know, reputation, I would say. Yeah. I think if it's done right, if it's done right, and there's guardrails in place, I do see this consumer mental model shift of starting to see the value in AI and it's helping their everyday life or just making things more one-to-one, I would say.

43:19Yeah. Yeah. If I'm thinking about it, like just the way consumer behavior is changing with AI, right? Like now we are bringing a lot more context to our digital footprint when we use some of these LLMs, for example. So leveraging just that behavior of consumers and how does that influence the way that they behave then with your product in particular? And how can you take that context and create an experience or a loyalty program that is best fit with that one-to-one subscriber that you mentioned? Yeah. You think about like logging in because I mean, right now it's, we're going to offer this offer to everyone that logs in.

44:07it now could be we're offering this this uh what is the saying right offer to the right person at the right time is essentially where we want to get to and i think ai helps enable that yeah we're that's been a phrase that i've heard as a product marketer for a while now but i think it's something that we're constantly trying to improve on um so it's yeah it's kind of exciting to see how it can go with guardrails and like in a non-creepy way, of course. Okay. So you're at Netflix now. So what lessons from this playbook are you taking with you in your role at Netflix? Honestly, so many learnings, um, you know, as product marketers, our primary stakeholders are product managers for the most part.

44:57Um, so I think for me, it's just really being able to understand the why behind something like working upstream to help shape and drive product strategy um based on consumer research and audience analysis i think it's so important to really have a seat at the table upstream to again drive that product strategy we aren't just about go to market like i think it's so important to be part of that early product development giving feedback on designs um in product copy just ensuring that we're building something our consumers actually want. And at the end of the day, like when we're part of that upstream and we understand the product in its entirety, it makes it so much easier for us as product marketers to position it later on and message that to drive the adoption and usage of that.

45:49One other thing I was thinking about is really what we talked around around like beyond the core product experience. Again, And sometimes PMs are just so focused on shipping new features or enhancements for the product that they're working on that sometimes they don't really have a pulse on the strategies outside of the product. For example, you know, how can we as PMMs drive value through other important moments during a customer lifecycle stage? For example, highlighting features to drive adoption and usage that may have like lost priority. Like maybe it was a feature that was built two years ago.

46:25We had a huge launch and it's super valuable to the company, but kind of like lost priority. So how does PMM step in and say, hey, how can we continue advancing usage of this feature, build awareness, drive adoption that ultimately drives business outcomes? Again, we want to highlight all the great work that our product teams do. And I don't know. We just have to start thinking about things like at Netflix, right? What's beyond content? That's something that I keep thinking about here at Netflix. We have such a strong content slate. If you look at any advertisement around Netflix, it's very content focused, right?

47:02It's Stranger Things. It's Wednesday. There is so much work that our product teams do to make our Netflix members have such a delightful experience when they're opening the application and using it. And I think it's a big opportunity for us to see how do we start marrying product innovation with content narratives, whether it's their advertisements or even just some of our messaging and positioning within the product and off-service marketing. So just some things I'm thinking about is like, again, to recap, one, sitting within like a product management space with loyalty programs, I think helps me a lot.

47:43Just understanding the ins and outs of what I'm going to market eventually. And then two, just ensuring that I'm thinking holistically beyond just the product experience. Yeah, that's so powerful the way that you described that. And it reminds me of something that I heard. I can't remember who I got it from. Some other product marketing influencer voice would talk about how product marketers are responsible for deeply understanding what it is about your product that is truly remarkable to your target audience. And it sounds like that's some of the work that you're doing, like beyond just content, as you said, like what about maybe it's a feature, maybe it's an, a certain product experience that not isn't necessarily consuming content, but maybe it's something else.

48:31That's just a delightful feature that kind of like captures the, you know, the loyalty, the retention, et cetera. So I really appreciate that thought. Yeah. Okay. My last question for you on this topic, James, what's one last piece of advice you have for a PMM who is in the midst of building a customer loyalty program? Yeah, this is a good question. I think I touched on it lightly before, but I would say don't fall for the fallacy of build it and they will come. Do the upfront work of identifying the problem, research, data analysis, come up with a hypothesis, validate that hypothesis through testing, and then develop a loyalty program strategy.

49:12just ensuring that it doesn't feel transactional but emotional it's tied to the brand that's that's really the sweet spot and again as i stated earlier you may find that loyalty is probably not going to move the needle for you and it's maybe it's okay to say hey this isn't going to move the needle and maybe this isn't our best option but you have to have that discipline to look at the data and say okay this is going to work or we want to continue testing before we're agreeing to something. Again, this is just to really ensure that what you're building is what your customers say that they want.

49:48Again, and the work doesn't stop when you launch. The likelihood of you getting everything within your first launch, like the wish list essentially for MVP is not likely. So you're going to have to constantly evaluate results, improve where you can based on insights, customer feedback, all of that fun stuff. But yeah, just be very aware of the build it and they will come fallacy and just make sure that there's data that's backing up the justification to move forward. Yeah. I love that. And something that as you were talking, what made me think of is that like sometimes reward programs don't have to be so like transactional feeling, especially with, you know, the, I'll say the hopefulness that we have around with AI, it can feel more like relational intelligence and remembering that there's a person behind the screen who is interacting with your product.

50:46And to the closer you can get to the one-on-one feeling is probably going to feel a little bit more, the customer will feel more understood and, you know, eager, willing to stick around. Agreed. Yeah. And just to add to that, I think you hit on an important point of this emotional relationship, right? I think what we launched when I was there, um, was very MVP. Like this was like bare bones, let's get something out. The ideas, um, for the future of this program or out of this world, um, it'll take some time to get there, but I know that the team that is now leading it, um, I I'm very close with them.

51:29They're doing a fantastic job of, of, uh, of getting it to, to that vision that we had early on. Um, so I can't wait for everyone to follow it. We should bring them on and have like a part two. We can do like a, we can do like a three person interview. You can kind of like recap the, like the early days, the vision, and then they can kind of chime in. Okay. I love it. We're going to do it. All right. So now it's time for the next segment of our show. This is the messaging critique. This is where as product marketing experts, we get to analyze real world messaging. And the fun part is James, as the guest of my show, you get to pick the company that we are critiquing today.

52:08Really quickly, I'm going to run through some ground rules. You're going to pick a company, or you have picked a company that you are the target audience, or you know the target audience really well, kind of makes it more fair to do a critique. And you're going to tell me what stood out to you about the messaging, something you wish the product marketer would have considered differently. And then we'll iterate a little bit on how they can take it to the next level. So without, yeah, without further ado, please share the company that we are critiquing today. So I'm going to do a full 180 on you because, um, I don't know if it was fair for me to critique another like entertainment provider or in that spot space.

52:46So I'm going to do, uh, body armor, the sports drink. I know it. I've had it. Tell me more. Tell me more. Like a little bit like, Yeah. Just for our listeners, get the listeners up to speed. Yeah. So I don't, I want to do them justice. I'm pulling from their website, um, quickly on just like what they are, because I think a lot of people will conflate. I think there's like body armor phone cases. It's also true. Yes. There's a ton of different products out there with similar names. So, uh, it was founded by Mike Rippoll in 2011 and he went out to challenge the status quo. he was tired of outdated sports drinks and artificial ingredients.

53:24So he created body armor with a clear mission to deliver a better for you sports drink made with no artificial dyes, flavors or sweeteners packed with potassium rich electrolytes, antioxidants, and coconut water. And the, his ethos is choose better. And in 2021, Coca-Cola fully acquired body armor under the one powerhouse, hydration portfolio alongside Powerade. So they have acquired a few products, but I wanted to hone in on Body Armor Lite, which is the coconut water-based healthy sports drink with the no artificial dyes and only 25 calories. I'm a big calorie counter. Yeah. So walk us through, what are they doing really well?

54:16This one was hard for me, honestly. sorry it's um no it is hard yeah uh if you were to visit their site they tend to have individual pages for each of their product their hero page is talking about one of their newer releases which is like i would say probably combating um or competing with that of like celsius um but if you were to like look at this their larger positioning um or messaging they're leaning heavily into the ethos that I mentioned previously. That choose better. Better. Yeah, exactly. Rewrite your routine. And for me, I mean, I liked that. I assume they're trying to convey of like, hey, switch up your routine, choose a better sports drink.

55:02I think healthier is implied here. But I don't know. It was kind of hard for me. Like I know their target audience is, you know, probably athletes, you know, people that want a healthier option like myself. Yeah, probably people who are like somewhat health conscious, who exercise on a regular basis, who care about having, you know, a drink with electrolytes, but maybe who get frustrated by having things like artificial dyes. You know, I mean, I'm constantly looking at labels to see ingredients and things like artificial or added sweeteners and stuff. I'm like, no, it's usually a pass for me, but I still want a lot of that.

55:48Exactly. Or maybe like, yeah, exactly. Like an alternative to coconut water, right? Like could be something like maybe a similar, like an adjacent audience, right? That's kind of what I'm thinking. Okay. So what they're doing really well maybe is like starting to capture some of that with that, you know, it seems a little bit like aspirational a bit, like choose better, like hopeful, encouraging. So like what, as you kind of think through that on the flip side of that, then what do you think, what do you wish the PMM would have considered differently? I don't even know if they have PMMs, but let's assume that they do.

56:29They probably have just like a brand team or like an agency. But that sounds like a brand slogan. It does. Yeah. I guess a little quick backstory. So I came across this at Costco last year. And like, it's part of our shopping list. Yeah. Yeah. It's part of our shopping list. I'm very sad when it's not there. Somebody probably forgot to place the order. But it's again, it's for the messaging for me, it falls a bit flat. that like as an avid consumer, I, if I saw this, like, I just always think about a billboard, like you have like three seconds to capture an audience, right? If you're like driving down a freeway or something.

57:09So if I saw this in a picture of a billboard, I always think of it in that way. I would just think it was another sports drink. If it was that, and it said, choose better, rewrite your routine. For me, I'd be like, oh, well, why would I go with this? I'll just drink Powerade or some other sports drink. Maybe not quite motivating enough. Like, cause it seems like context. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it seems like the choose better rewrite your routine. It's definitely punchy, but it's almost like it there's, it's kind of missing the like, why, you know, like it's, and maybe it's there in some contexts and like, no, we had just haven't seen it, but sorry, I'll let you kind of keep talking.

57:52Oh, good. And I do know they like list a lot of the ingredients on the bottle itself where it's like no artificial dyes, but it's hard for somebody to see, right? Like you have to, there's some intent there that you're curious to see what this is, but you need to first create that awareness of like what this is to even pick up the bottle. And like for me, I think choose better to your point, like, what am I choosing better? I'm not sure. And you know, How am I going to rewrite my routine by doing this? For me, it's like it's more fulfilling a need at the moment because I need to quench my thirst.

58:28So I think the routine is a bit of a stretch. I don't know for me. Yeah. Yeah. I bet they're I wonder if maybe they're kind of getting at or hinting to people who have their like their go to. Right. Because Body Armor, because they came a little bit later to the sports drink conversation, they um they're probably trying to wedge themselves into an audience that has their like go-to drink that they buy like you now have body armor on your standard you know costco purchase list other people probably have like whether it's powerade or you know gatorade or you know whatever it is um i wonder if there's like that's kind of what they're hinting at but theirs is the like healthier quote unquote alternative.

59:16Okay. So what do you think they could do to take it to the next level? What would you like to see them? How would you, how could you imagine that they like really take off with their differentiation? Yeah. So I'm like not a copywriter by trade, but I think it could be something more compelling around, you know, pure hydration without the fake stuff you can't pronounce. Like kind of like being a little cheeky about it, like poke fun at the competition. Um, or even like, I think the coconut water is a huge differentiator. Um, I didn't even know that. And I've like, yeah, I've consumed a lot of body armor.

59:52Yeah. It's, it's, it's coconut water. So it's like, you know, coconut, coconut water, sports drink, no fake stuff, 25 calories. Like for me, that would catch my eye. One, I'm like, I'm really not a fan of coconut water, but I know how helpful it is for hydration and just for me I can't do the taste but to know that something is like mango based and like coconut water with 25 calories like for me that would really draw my attention and make me want to learn more yeah yeah I feel like there needs to be more emphasis on that healthy I really yeah I could totally picture them like diving deep into the lake um just being a little bit more bold and aggressive with like focusing on like what you said, that fake stuff that you can't pronounce.

1:00:40That is something that I do. It's huge. I can't tell you how many times I'm at the grocery store and I look at the back of a label and if it's got something weird that I can't pronounce, unless it's something that is a must have in my household, I don't buy it. I put it back. So if that's, if that is a characteristic, a characteristical behavior of their target audience, that could be something that they lean into. You know what I'm realizing in your answer and your suggestion for how they can take it to the next level, it really mirrors some of the activity that you did as you're building out a customer loyalty program is to dig in and to look deeper on the value that like to look at your existing customer base and understand the perceived value, do some of that research, like build out some of those, some of that segmentation of your existing customers and then, you know, try to take it to the next level in that way.

1:01:38And maybe, maybe they have done some of that, but I was just kind of drawing out the parallels that I was seeing between like your style in particular that I think is, um, you know, very helpful, Clearly a successful one. Full circle moment. Yes, totally. Okay. Well, shout out to Body Armor and any Body Armor marketers out there. You've definitely got some fans. I'm a big, I've definitely consumed a lot of Body Armor. So, all right. So James, there's one thing that I like to make space for on this podcast, and that is a moment of gratitude. We truly do not get anywhere in product marketing in general, honestly, without learning from each other.

1:02:16So I'm so grateful that you have taken the generosity and time to come on and share your expertise on the show. So thank you so much. And I would love to turn around to you and hear some shout outs for some PMMs who have brought you to this moment and contributed to the awesome PMM that you are today. Thank you, one, for having me. So, so thankful. This is going to be an Oscar moment for me because you're going to start playing the music. But as I'm reading off my note card. Let's do it. But there's been so many amazing product marketers I've worked with. I started off my career at AT &T in 2012.

1:02:55Kyle Riley Johnston, he was the leader at Disney Plus for global product marketing. Bright servant leader. He's one that really kind of truly kicked off my product marketing career at AT &T. So major kudos to him. My fellow and past PMMs, especially the ones at Disney Plus, whether you're on my team or a colleague or a leader. The job is never easy. We're always like, I've seen such talent on the team. And it's not easy whenever you're establishing a new function or you're having to constantly prove your value and a battle for a seat at the table. So just everyone that's a product marketer, give you major kudos and hats off to you.

1:03:35And finally, I want to make sure I mentioned my folks at Netflix. I've been here for a little bit a year in July, but the talent here is out of this world. And I'm just grateful every day to work alongside such stunning colleagues. So thanks again for having me. Yeah, I love it. There's nothing like the relationships that you make when you're like just in the thick of it with something just really hard to do in your professional life and just having, you know, those homies that that gets you through it and then obviously teach you along the way. So, okay. This is my last question for you. Where else is it best to access your expertise?

1:04:15Can we just find you on LinkedIn? Yes. LinkedIn is probably the best spot. I'm pretty active on there. At least when I try to be my wife, wife isn't crazy. Yeah. So send me a request and we can connect. Awesome. Again, thank you so much, James. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. And I would be so grateful if you would leave us a review. It helps tremendously with our reach. thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today i hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey