How legacy brands can innovate like startups with Nicole Ayers, Business Unit Director @ General Mills

20:32Nicole Ayers:So that's just one thing that I'm thinking about is like every touch point should be an opportunity for somebody to go tell the world about how much they love it. Because the product delivers and it tastes really great and animals love it and it's got superior nutrition. And so how do we get others to tell the story for us? And that can start with your employees, it can start with your agency partners and just like we call, we say this in sales, like always be selling, but how do you always be thinking about somebody else helping you sell your product and not just, you know, not just having your TV campaigns do it or your digital campaigns.

21:00That's so smart. I think employees are such an underserved or represented group of influencers. I mean, especially at a general mills, I don't know how many employees you have, but I'm guessing it's over in the thousand. And a lot of them probably aren't thinking about blue Buffalo every single day like you are, but they do have pets. They're, they're almost a consumer in a lot of ways. Right. And, and yeah, how do you get them excited by it and just trying it just like you would a normal consumer? I think that's really cool. Yeah.

21:28Nicole Ayers:Yeah. You almost need like your own little like internal employee campaign. Exactly. We should think about something. We should do something fun. Yeah, exactly. The internal launch. We should do something fun for the internal launch. Yeah. Okay. All right. You heard it here first. We'll figure that out over dinner. Yeah. We'll think about it over dinner. All right. Let's go back to the board. Okay. Let's try number 12. Okay. Number 12. You're in a category of big spenders, what's your advice for maximizing your marketing dollars? I know a lot of the folks that listen into those podcasts are, they might consider themselves challenger brands, you know, and maybe they're not the number one spender in the category.

22:07And so, yeah, just curious if you have any advice or perspective on how to think about that.

22:14Nicole Ayers:I think it's probably, and it gets back a little bit to like, how do you get people to tell your story for you. You can spend lots of money being on football games and all the prime media and the last places people are actually watching live television. And it's really expensive and it's really getting crowded, I would say. And so we'll do some of that, you know, but we're in a category, like you said, of big spenders. So I think the best way to do it is like be really interesting so that what you're doing is actually paid attention to. And then for me, there's also a component of like, how do you be culturally relevant so that your story is easier to share because it has something in common with people in their everyday lives versus just advertising that you're serving up to them.

22:57Nicole Ayers:And so I think being interesting and being culturally relevant, and it's such a hard, I think it's an art we're still learning, but how do you start to be part of a conversation versus like forcing your way into it or just screaming at people? And that is, it's so hard to find something that's an authentic way for your brand to participate in what's happening culturally. And it requires you to move so fast because culture moves so fast. And so identifying it, figuring out your unique right to participate that is authentic and meaningful, and then doing that in like 36 hours is a whole thing. And I think we're still figuring out how to do that.

23:30Nicole Ayers:But I think the brands that are able to be really interesting and be really authentic and then attach themselves to culture in some way have an outsized impact because people want to talk about them. And they're not just, you're not just serving up your advertising, but they're also like, oh, this is fun to talk about. And so they spread your message for you. Yes. I mean, you're speaking my love language here. I mean, we know 86 % of ads are ignored or even worse, misattributed to a competitor. And so, you know, oftentimes like you can't afford to be boring. Like if you're going to put any dollar behind it, at least make it interesting.

24:02So people see it and want to see it and want to consume it. So yeah. Yeah.

24:06Nicole Ayers:There's one of the phrases that our CMO used to use was how do you be thumb stopping? Like you just have to get people to stop because no one really wants to look at advertising. So you've got to be entertaining enough and add that value to their lives for them to even pay any attention to you at all. So I think that's like step one, if you're going to, if you're going to compete with some heavy spenders. And lucky for you, dogs are cute and entertaining. Puppies and babies, right? So cute. Oh my gosh. Those dogs are so cute. So true. All right, let's go back to the board. Let's do number nine.

24:41Nicole Ayers:Okay. How do you know when a strategy is right? And then also what about the creative concept? So, so we talked a little bit about, you know, like, you know, not being fearful and you can bring lots of ideas and we can test and we can fail. When do you know, like, man, this is it. Yeah. It's so, it's so funny. We just went through this. And I think you go through a couple of rounds and you start to know you'll get the feeling. And it's like, that's like the worst coaching you can get to people. You're like, it's like a feeling you'll get. And it's true though. But it is a collective kind of feeling where everybody's like, oh, it's all there.

25:18Nicole Ayers:And I think the hardest part about when you're getting to great creative is the messy middle where you're like, oh, but it's better than the one before, but it's not quite right, but you think it's better. And so a lot of times, and I think earlier in my career, I don't think I knew what the feeling was. So I didn't push until I got there. And I think part of getting to really good creative is making sure you're continuing to push and not just say, oh, it's better than the last round, but like, it's better than the last round, but is it delivering the four things that we needed to deliver? And like the first one, like, is it interesting?

25:51Nicole Ayers:Will people stop and like look at this thing? Because if they don't look, then it doesn't matter if I hit my four RTBs because no one's paying attention. And is it delivering on what we aligned on? We talked about earlier, like strategically, there are like three or four things that are really compelling reasons to think something will grow. And is my creative delivering upon that strategy? I think that's a really important part to make sure that it all works together. But then there is that like, je ne sais quoi, when you're in the room and you're looking at something and everybody is like, oh, oh, like it's interesting.

26:23Nicole Ayers:It has the right tone. It has the right, like you're hitting the right messages in a really clear way. And you kind of look around, everybody just smiles and like a little bit is a sigh of relief of like, oh yeah, that's it. And you kind of, you have to do it a few times to know what that feeling is. Cause then when you're not there, you're like, oh, I actually need, I need to keep pushing. And even I will say like my, my boss will do this sometimes where I think I'm there. And she'll ask me like three really good questions. And I'm like, shit, or not quite there yet because we didn't hit those.

26:50Nicole Ayers:Maybe it's like, do you think the branding's coming through? Do you think people really stopped to look at this? Just like some pause and reflect questions to make sure you're pushing the work to be as good as humanly possible. And then you look at it and you go like, oh yeah, that's it, that's nails. Exactly. A friend of the agency, you may even know him, Pete Carter. He was a guest on this show. He describes that moment as, he calls them the tingles. He's like, he like physically can feel it on his body when the idea and the strategy are coming together. That's so right. I was like, it might've been a couple of weeks ago, probably coinciding with like the first time, the first rough cut we saw of the first spot we were working on.

27:27Nicole Ayers:And I went home and my parents recently moved to Minneapolis where we live. And my mom was like, you're in such a good mood. I was like, mom, I'm having like the best work week ever. Like everything is just working. Like the team is working really well together. The creative looks awesome. Like it was like, just like, you know, when you're hitting the stride, just feeling really good. And then like the next week happened and something else happened. you know but you gotta you gotta enjoy the wins you really do we don't celebrate the wins nearly enough yeah oh yeah i that i rolled around that week really all all that i love that yeah all right let's go back to the board all right am i gonna be your first person to get through all 12 questions nope we've had a couple all right i also don't think you're gonna get there all 12 but we'll see uh let's do number two okay number two love made fresh asks pet parents to go the extra mile, how do you get Blue Buffalo loyalists to change their habits?

28:19That's actually, we were kind of just chit-chatting about this a little bit, but when you think about, you're going to bring some new users likely into the market, how do you think about those Blue Buffalo loyalists and getting them hyped and excited for it?

28:31Nicole Ayers:Yeah. I mean, I think the Blue Buffalo loyalists, the good news is they already love the brand because they're loyal to us. And you think about the things that are really special about Blue Buffalo, we have an incredible origin story with the founder and they created this product to make sure that their dog could be healthy. His name was Blue. That's why it's Blue Buffalo. And we have really held this wonderful nutrition superiority with natural ingredients and nutritional superiority. And we have a nutrition philosophy where we give the dog exactly what they need for the best health that they can have.

29:05Nicole Ayers:And that is like I would say in the DNA of Blue Buffalo. And I think Blue Buffalo loyalists know that. And so when we came to launch Blue Buffalo fresh, we thought a lot about how do we make sure we hold ourselves to all of the standards that we hold ourselves to Blue Buffalo. So for loyalists, it's like a no brainer, really. They're like, I actually, why wouldn't I feed them Blue Buffalo? I think the hurdle that we'll have to get people who are non-fresh users who are in Blue Buffalo to understand, like, it's actually easier than you think. If you think about a lot of the advertising and the fresh space, a lot of the players are currently demonizing kibble and saying, kibble's not great.

29:39Nicole Ayers:Feed your dog this. This isn't good for you. Feed your dog this. And it's not really true. And so the role that Blue Buffalo could come out and say is like, actually, we think you should mix all these great things together. We have great nutrition across our whole portfolio. How do you mix everything together and make the meal the way you want to? And so I actually think we're going to be a little bit of a relief for our Blue Buffalo loyalists who maybe are hearing in their ear, oh, don't feed your dog this. It's no good. And we're like, it is good it's got great ingredients natural ingredients we're so proud of the quality that we put into our food and now you can do that with fresh and here's how you mix it and here are some inspiring ways for you to chop it or shake it or stir it or however else you want to you want to put it into your bowl um so i'm hoping that we can we can we can translate that to the loyalists so they try our new product that's great i i feel like the like you have to be all in on fresh is just, it's so wild to me.

30:29I love the idea that you can really have both and both are doing really great things for your pet. I like, I just like hearing you say that it makes me think of like cloth diapering. And like for so long, I'm like, you either have to be like all in on cloth, like never use a regular diaper. And I'm like, I can't do that. Like how do moms do that? I love you and praise you for doing that. But then somebody was like, no, you actually don't. You can cloth diaper when you want and use a regular diaper when you want. And, um, and there's just like this freeing, I think that maybe some of these blue Buffalo, um, loyalists will have, like, it's just an addition to the amazing lineup that you already have.

31:05Nicole Ayers:Exactly. A nice little topper sometimes too. Nobody wants to be told what they're doing is bad. Um, and I think it's a really common marketing mechanic. It can be highly effective, but it doesn't make you feel good about themselves. And I just like, don't want to do marketing that makes people feel guilty. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're trying to do something so great for a family member exactly all right i think we've got time for two more i'm hearing all right let's go back to the board um number 11. all right so you're big on consumer testing when do you ignore the feedback and just go with your gut gosh i'm like trying to think about a time i've i've done that normally i will i'm gonna invert your question i know you asked it but i'm gonna change it um because there's a number of times that I have thought I was so right.

31:51Nicole Ayers:And I'm like, I'm going to go with my gut. And I'm like, you know, and I call the thinks versus the no's. Like, I think, or people are like, we think this, we think that. I'm like, you know, we should probably do is go ask a consumer. And there's so many easy ways for you to do like quick 24 hour testing, go ask 50 consumers. And the number of times I've been proven wrong by just asking consumers, I actually, when I think I have a really strong gut, but somebody else is like, ah, I'm not really sure. The first thing I do is pause and say, let's go, even if it's 10 people, even if we, I've sent homework and been like, hey, we're having this conversation, it was when I was in Syria, we're having this conversation about what some like a demographic will think.

32:28Nicole Ayers:And none of us are in that demographic because we're all too old. Can you go home and go find like your neighbors, like high school and college kids and ask them if this is actually cool or not? And we came back and I was like, I think this is so dumb. And it turned out it was really cool because, and the demographic thought it was made sense and all of the things. And so I have been proven wrong so many times on what I thought was right. And a couple of people in the room like, oh, I'm not really sure. And we just go ask a couple people, go ask 10 people, 15 people. Does it make sense? Does this make sense to you?

32:58Nicole Ayers:Is this interesting? Is this cool? Would this catch your attention? And the number of times they've gotten to a better answer by just pausing and doing a quick consumer pulse has been amazing. So I don't, I kind of always, the consumer is usually a tiebreaker for me. Well, I think that's just like a really smart strategy just to incorporate into like your daily, your daily working life. Like how easy is that to just go field, you know, 50 consumers and just get a quick fact that you can kind of add to your gut, you know, or say, you know what, I actually was wrong and they proved me wrong. I really like that.

33:30What do you, do you do a lot of concept testing then?

33:34Nicole Ayers:Um, we don't, we do some concept testing. I think there's, it depends on where you are in the journey. I think a concept test is really helpful when you have like all the pieces together and you're like, okay. And it also for me feels like the answer you think is going to be right. And then you're tweaking. I think there's a lot of stuff that is just smaller things. Like we were even, even today we were talking about language and I was like, you know what? We're not sure if that will resonate or that wasn't or that doesn't it. Can we just go like put it into consumer really quickly and figure out what we think is going to be the most, like the most clear to consumers.

34:07Nicole Ayers:And so I think we do do concept testing for big projects. And for me, that tends to be towards the end when you're like tweaking around the edges. But I think there's so many touch points between that concept test, either before or after, where you're kind of like crystallizing or sharpening something. And you're like, oh, let's just go ask consumers. Like, we should for sure be using that word instead of that word in all of our comms, which can be really helpful. And then earlier on, I think you can converge more quickly. You know, when you're like boardroom innovating and you're like, oh, we should do this, this or this.

34:37Nicole Ayers:And you're like, that seems like a great idea. Usually you should not do that. And you should take the 10 ideas that you are starting to think about and then do really quick interactions with consumers. We call it prototype testing to say like, what's interesting in this, what's interesting in that? And it helps you narrow down in on what the spaces are that could be really meaningful for a consumer before you get too far along to a concept test. We're like, here's my answer. So I think there's a lot of iteration before the concept test and then iteration after it. So it's a full funnel thing.

35:06Full funnel concept. What do you say to the naysayers? There's a lot of big creative agencies out there, especially that say, you know, creative concepting, that's where great work goes to die. What do you say to them?

35:18Nicole Ayers:I mean, I don't know. I think you have to know that the feedback is input and it's not the answer. Like you should never make a decision off of a concept test, but you should probably hear, like sometimes you'll hear something around, like I didn't really understand the first seven minutes. You're like, oh, the pacing might have been off and maybe we change that super. It's not like the creative is not good. It's just that there's an element of it that wasn't clearly understood or the music was slightly off and it gave people this feeling. So maybe we change up the music. It's never a place. It should never be set up to kill something.

35:50Nicole Ayers:It should only be set up to make it better. So whenever we go into testing, the question is always like, what are we going to learn in action? And the action is not to not do it. That's not helpful. The action should be, well, we're not sure if the, we think there might be too many scenes and it's too choppy and people can't follow it. Cool. We're going to check for comprehension. Do you guys know what you might take out if it is, if it doesn't have full comprehension? We think that music, we're actually choosing between two. Great thing to test. So I think concept testing can be where things go to die if you're going to make a decision based on it.

36:19Nicole Ayers:But what you should be doing is making it better with your learning. Because again, like you're not feeling, you're just learning. So you're just going to take what you did and make the work better on the outside. It just goes back to like your central foundation of that, which I really, really appreciate. Okay. That's good advice. Yeah. All right. Last one. Where are we going? All right. Number three. Okay. You've said mistake it till you make it. What's a mistake that has happened in your career that has moved you forward? Do you remember saying that? I don't know. I say a lot of things, but yeah, I believe it.

36:50Nicole Ayers:I mean, I'm like, I'm all about like, You don't fail. Failing. I know. I know. It's all full circle. It's very freeing when you're like, oh, learning moment. Learning moment. Yeah. Has there been a mistake that you go back to frequently? Like, God, I learned so much in that moment. I'm so glad that mistake happened. I have made so many mistakes in my career, honestly, or had learning moments, I think. I'm trying to think of a good one. You know, I'll use one in cereal where we're on year two of a really cool campaign. We have, gosh, I'm going to blank on the name, but it is, this year it is Touchdown Taste.

37:29Nicole Ayers:Oh, it's training camp. So year one, we did the Kelsey brothers and we did a mix with them. We do all this stuff. And then year two, we're now doing it with Justin Jefferson and some other wide receivers. I'm not on that team. The creative team that's doing it and the team that's leading it is amazing. but the way we got there was because we were progressing something around nutrition the capital came in really high and we essentially had a plan with like a massive hole in it and we're like what are we gonna do for back to school I don't know big deal big deal and we're like shoot we have no idea and so we sat in the room we sat in a room for a while I'm like well these brothers just like blogged about it or they just put us on their podcast we could do something with that?

38:08Nicole Ayers:Could we do that? And we just had to like come up with an idea to fill the gap. And it ended up like really snowballing into this awesome execution, which has now turned into training camp and we're repeating it this year during football season. But I think the fact that we had like really no plan at all unlocked something super, super cool and culturally relevant that has been living on. And so that was a pretty big mistake because you never want to go into your fiscal year with like no plan for the biggest aperture of the year. moments of the year. Yeah. I mean, it was not a great moment, but you had the right people in the room.

38:42Nicole Ayers:We had the right mindset around like, what can we do? What's interesting? What's interesting for our consumers? What's interesting in culture? And we're able to kind of, I would say, not stumble onto, but have a nugget of an idea that we were able to just make bigger and bigger and bigger. And I don't know if we would have been as bold as that if we hadn't failed before and had no option. So we were able to really step into it and create, I think, a really nice aperture for cereal around football that is living on, which is great. So that would be maybe one example. Nice. Should we clear the board?

39:13I feel like we should clear the board. There's one more on there. Let's do it. Let's do it. Oh, there is. I feel like we should do it. Let's clear the board. All right. All right. All right. Speaking of cereal, I need your hot take. Okay. What are your thoughts on cereal cannibalism?

39:27Nicole Ayers:God, I love it. I love it so much. It was so funny. So Kate Erickson is the brand manager and Brandon Trail are the two people who are kind of running that campaign. And we were at a meeting corporately and they grabbed me because I moved on to PET and we had worked on the foundation a little bit together. And a lot of what we talked about was one, like the food didn't look delicious enough. And so how do we evolve our advertising to make the food like look more delicious and keep the quirkiness of of Cinema Toast Crunch. And then I left and went to pet, but that was kind of like what we had been talking about.

40:01Nicole Ayers:And they grabbed me in the hallway and they showed me the advertising. And I was like, oh my God, it's so good with like the creepy music and the partnerships they were able to get to. And I absolutely love it. I think it's brilliant. And it comes back to, it actually solved a really big strategic question we had, which is this is the best tasting cereal. Like I think like the best tasting cereal and how do you deliver advertising that really demonstrates it and like what better way than to have the cereal eat itself I mean it's brilliant so yeah I think the team did such a great job I mean that is like the perfect example of where you say strategy meets like bold and exactly the edge and like it's easy to sell and it's like we planned to end this way I love this for us so you've seen the podcast you know we love to end with a little this or that.

40:49Rapid fire. First thing that comes to mind. Okay. Let's do it. All right. Let's go. Lucky charms or cinnamon toast crunch.

40:57Nicole Ayers:Oh, cinnamon toast crunch. I mean, it is the best tasting. It's my like childhood dream really. I just, I can't. Okay. Would you rather work with a legacy brand or a challenger brand? Oh, challenger brand. I'm in the fight. I like the fight. Yeah, me too. Okay. Riding a tractor or riding the subway? Oh, fun fact. I actually know how to drive a tractor so i'm gonna go tractor i know i know that about you all right um misty may or carrie walsh oh man misty may beat us in our ncaa women's volleyball um we were in the final 16 so i'm gonna go misty may yeah because she she kept me out of the sweet 16.

41:37what a cool like experience to talk to your kids about too i love that all right so fresh so clean or hey yeah oh so fresh so clean

41:44Nicole Ayers:every day. Is that your walk-up song? It is. All right. The hardest one on here, dogs or cats? Oh, it's easy. Dogs. Cats are nice, but dogs are the best. I love that. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been a total blast. If our listeners want to connect with you, where's the best place? Yeah. Find me on LinkedIn. Send me a message. I'd love to connect with creative people who are facing big problems. Awesome. Awesome. We'll link to that in the show notes. Awesome. Thank you.

42:14Thank you.