The indie agency advantage: What CMOs need to know with Ad Age Executive Editor Judy Pollack

0:04Hello, everyone. Welcome to Question Everything, a podcast all about learning from the successes and the failures of those who dared to, well, question everything. This podcast is part interview, part therapy, and part Price is Right. We have our own game board stacked with questions that'll make even the most successful CMO sweat. I'm your host, Ashley Wolter, CMO and partner at Curiosity. Today, I'm sitting down with Judy Pollack, executive editor at AdAge and one of the most trusted voices in advertising journalism. Together, we revisit some of advertising's most jaw-dropping moments since the 80s and unpack what brands and agencies need to do to earn attention in 2026.

0:42In this episode, you'll hear the fastest way to get on AdAge's radar, how Judy broke one of the biggest stories in advertising history, the small agency superpower that's making Hold Co's nervous, the most mad men story Judy can tell us without getting in trouble, and a special appearance from an American Idol winner. So grab a payphone and shout, hold the press! This episode is front page worthy. Let's get started.

1:16Judy Pollack has had a front row seat to advertising for nearly 40 years. As AdAge's executive editor, she's helped shape some of the industry's biggest conversations while holding just about every editorial role along the way. Besides running a tight newsroom, Judy leads AdAge's small agency conference and awards, which is widely considered one of the industry's best events, especially to small indie shops like ours. Judy, welcome to the show. Welcome, Ashley. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. I'm really excited. I am so excited you're here. I feel like this is a long time in the making.

1:53I was just with you in LA at the Small Agency Conference and Awards. You must still be on a high. I think I'm still on a high. LinkedIn is still talking about it. It is absolutely my favorite show of the year because it celebrates the best, the newest, the hardworking small shops that are out there. I would love to hear from you, like any big takeaways or, you know, anything that you can share from your experience this year? Yeah, I think the best thing about it, of course, I'm biased, right? But I think the best thing about it is the ability for people to network and to learn from one another.

2:32And this year, for the first time, we had breakout sessions among the members of our small agency network. I think that was really well received. I just feel like the energy is always off the charts at this thing. And it's just such a labor of love to put together. I mean, I'm exhausted right now, but I'm so happy that another one came off. Okay. Yeah. Well, on behalf of all of us small shops, thank you for recognizing us. Thank you for giving us a platform. I can tell you personally, from my perspective, owning a small agency, it has changed so much for us and the trajectory of our agency. So a lot of gratitude to you in particular, but the whole at age crew for for just being such big supporters of this community.

3:22It's really a labor of love, honestly. I mean, it's such a great community. People are so awesome. It's so much fun to deal with you guys. So I'm really glad to help you all along in any small way. I love it. I led one of those breakout sessions in the morning on day one. And I told everybody that walked in, I'm like, all right, everyone in here has to sign an NDA first because it's going to get real. And that's probably one of my favorite things about small agencies is how open and willing everyone is to share and help each other. And no joke, I'm like, I'm literally in a pitch with two of the agencies in the room.

3:57And yet we're still sharing and trying to help each other. And that's pretty special, I think. I agree. Yeah. All right, my friend. Well, you know how this show works. I cannot wait to get to know you even more through this podcast. I have 12 super spicy questions that we have. You might be sorry, but OK. No way. No way. I'm excited. And you know the power's in your hand. So you don't know what's behind these numbers. I don't know what's behind these numbers. so let's just see what happens here. Well, they always say the last is best, right? So let's go with 12. Okay, let's go straight to 12. Oh, I have a special guest for you.

4:38Here's a message.

4:41Judy Pollack:Hey, Judy. My name's Dave. Hi. I have a question. What's the most Mad Men story you can tell without getting in trouble. I have another question. What's your go-to karaoke song and why is it me? All right. I'm told you're a huge fan of David Cook. Yes. Yes, I am. For those of you who don't know who he is, he won American Idol in 2008, I guess it was, 78. And I just love his music and I've been following him for almost 18 years now. I've gone to so many concerts, I can't even tell you how many. So that was really special. Thank you. You're so welcome. So David wants to know, what's the most Mad Men story you can tell us?

5:34Well, you know, like I've been there 40 years, but like the real Mad Men stuff was like the 60s, you know, 70s. So I kind of missed, you know, the free love sex kind of thing. But at least in terms of in the 80s as a reporter, in fact, I did a sub stack about this, what it was like to be a reporter in the 80s and 90s covering advertising. And it was like three martini lunches were a thing. I never drank martinis. I drank wine, but they were a thing. And, you know, I got to go to Martha Stewart's home in the Hamptons for a press conference. There was a press conference for a frozen dinner. I kid you not, where they sent us to Reading, Pennsylvania for a murder mystery overnight stay.

6:18And that's a press conference, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. It was just crazy. But, you know, you worked in little cubicles with a lot of cigarette smoke and you squinted a lot. And if you got a tip, you had to run to a payphone to call it in. Everybody went to Michael's for lunch, which I still guess a hot spot. But you'd be sitting there and Tina Turner would be a Tina Turner. Tina Brown. I wish it was Tina Turner. turn. Brown would be at the next table, you know. So it was it was pretty exciting time to be a reporter. But I haven't I didn't there wasn't a lot of hanky panky that I know of, although I've heard some stories that I couldn't verify.

6:58All right. And your favorite karaoke song? Oh, gosh, it's actually not any of David's because they're way too hard to sing. He has a beautiful voice and I have no range whatsoever. My husband used to say that I couldn't carry a tune in his suitcase. So if I have to do a karaoke song, it's usually girls just want to have fun. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. All right. I like that. I'm curious that your lunches back then versus your lunches back now, what is a typical lunch look like for you now? Mostly at my desk or in my kitchen where I am right now. So gobbling stuff in between. But we still, you know, we have fun.

7:36We go to dinners. You and I have been to dinner, You know, it's so fun to catch up with some of the agencies and just find out what's going on with them. But it's a little less lavish than it used to be. We didn't all go to at the time it was Tavern on the Green or the pool room at the Four Seasons. So that's right. That's right. Yeah, it is interesting to think, yeah, most of my lunches these days are spent kind of at my desk. But going back to small, I feel like some of my favorite moments were these like small, intimate lunches that you just sat with a couple of folks. they don't get to see very often and catch up and share stories.

8:12And I do like it when we can get out, but we're not getting out nearly as much as they used to back in the day, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. A lot more work going on. Yeah. Maybe we're working harder. I think so. All right. Let's go back to the game board. I don't know. I'm going to top that one. How's two? I don't think we're going to top that one, honestly. All right. Let's look. I'm seeing him tonight. You are? Yeah. I'm going to a concert tonight. Oh, my God. Well, you'll have to tell him that you got his question. All right. What's a story adage missed or miss underestimated or maybe didn't see coming fast enough?

8:50Yeah. Well, you know, it isn't exactly missed, but we miscalculated. Let's put it this way. Way back in the early days of the Internet, we did have a website, but we weren't really breaking news on the website. Like we still thought of that as an adjunct, right? for it to be a really breaking news story, it should be on the cover of the Monday issue. So we knew that gray advertising was going to be bought by WPP. And we were like, oh, this is, I think, 2005. And we're like, oh, we're going to hold this. It's too big. We're going to put it on Monday. And of course, that was a real miscalculation because the New York Times, Phil Daugherty at the time was New York Times correspondent, and he had a Saturday paper.

9:28So he broke the news ahead of us. And that was the last time we ever, ever, ever tried to hold anything. So, so that one was, you know, went about missing, you know, that was one. But in terms of didn't see coming, there's just like a lot of things that you don't expect, obviously, like when Martin Sorrell left WPP, I remember, I got a text while I was sitting in a restaurant about to finish my meal and going to see Pretty Woman on Broadway. So I had to leave, go home, and start working on the story. Same thing happened with, sadly, when Dan Wyden died. I remember I was in a Home Depot and I had to abandon my cart and run home, start calling reporters on a Saturday and say, can you help me write this?

10:16So, yeah. So fascinating. So when you do get a hot news tip, let's say, you know, something scandalous is going down or really interesting, how many verified sources do you have to have before you feel like you can run it now that we know like time is of the essence yeah well the ideal is at least three three okay sometimes if we know no no no no for a fact we know this people we know it's somebody who's really directly involved in this situation is definitely in a position to know we'll go lower okay but for the most part you know the great thing is three okay yeah all right All right, let's go back to the game board.

10:57Okay, 10. Number 10. All right, we actually talked quite about this at one of my lunches at Small. So Super Bowl still gets the budget. You know, TV is still getting the budget, but social is driving the brief. And I'm hearing a lot of agencies say that. A lot of the RFPs that are coming out, a lot of the client briefs that are coming out says social first campaign thinking. So my question back to you is, what do you think that says about the state of our industry? Well, actually, social goes backwards to the Super Bowl, right? You start, you do the Super Bowl, and that's just the beginning of everything.

11:34That's where you really need to seed your social with whatever game shows or whatever you're doing with it. I know you guys did peeps, right? Yeah. You know, outside the Super Bowl. So I do think that social is really where the pulse of the industry is right now. Everybody on that in one form or another. And it's all about creating one-to-one connections. And nothing could be less one-to-one than the Super Bowl, right? It's mass media, right? Whereas if you can create a connection through social, which is what I think came through in our awards this year, some of the winning agencies, the big winning agency was a social agency.

12:12So I do think that, yeah, we have to really think more personal and one-to-one, however that plays out. Yeah, that's great. Do you think we're going to start seeing budgets start going more towards social? Because I mean, it's true, like we're the the but the mass budgets are still living in these like TV, video heavy kind of segments in the media plan. mm-hmm well by its nature social is a little less expensive for marketers so i think that's another reason why they like it yeah but there's i think they're starting to recognize that there's more value in it and it's not just anymore well we'll just put up a post that has to do with you know whatever mittens at the super bowl or something like that or oreo you know it's really that you have to be on it all the time, make, learn your brand's ethos and carry it through, through everything in social.

13:05So I think there's going to be more different specialties within social. We already have some, you know, some that focus on entertainment or athletes and things like that. So I do think that budgets are going to go up, especially if you can prove the value in what you're doing is more important than just, you know, saying, okay, we're going to throw up a quick tweet. Yeah, or x, whatever you call it these days. From a publication standpoint, do you guys get as excited about a social campaign that you do with, you know, more of a like a video heavier broadcast campaign? I don't think the medium matters.

13:42I think the idea matters, right? So if we something see something exciting, whether it be in any format, then you're like, oh, okay, this is really something. Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of agnostic in terms of media. Yeah. Good answer. I like that. All right. Let's go back to the board. We haven't done the middle yet. Let's go for five. Okay. Number five. Okay. So you've experienced the disappearance of legendary agency names. So when a name like J. Walter Thompson or YNR goes away, what's actually lost for the industry? Is it reputation, culture, history, or is it just signage? Kind of all of the above, honestly.

14:25I mean, I do think there are some agencies that are a bunch of initials that are still doing really good work. But this industry was sort of built on personality, right? That's kind of actually something I'm a little bit sad about. You know, there used to be like, really cool, you know, we have some, but there were legendary names that you would be like, oh my God, you know, David Olbewe walked into the room or, you know, Lee Clow or something like that. And that's kind of not happening so much in a room, which is kind of sad. But those people were the creators of this business. So, I mean, I guess it is a little bit backwards thinking because, you know, they are old legacy agencies, but I do think there's something to culture.

15:08And that's why the small agencies are doing so well. They have great cultures. And when you get too big to be able to like, work with that culture, then I think it's a loss for everyone. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard from my perspective, like sitting back and just reading about all of this, all the change that's happening and the mergers and the acquisitions and the closings. And it does feel like a bit of history and these icons that you've looked up to, It's kind of going away. And those cultures in a lot of ways are going away. And it has felt a little like a mourning in some respects from where I'm sitting.

15:49Right. I agree. Yeah. And if you're in like a giant agency right now, it's a, I don't know, I work for a privately held company where I kind of know everybody, right? And I always did. And I think that that was sort of a benefit where you could go into, you know, to Rance Crane's office and say, hey, I have an idea or something, you know, where it doesn't it isn't that way anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. All right. Let's go back to the board. Four. Okay. Number four. What do CMOs need to understand about the new wave of super independence? You know, I get from a lot of small agencies that they feel like they're underrepresented in terms of bigger clients and that bigger clients think that they can't handle a large account.

16:42And I don't think that's necessarily the case. I've seen a lot of small agencies do really well with big clients. I mean, you're on the P &G roster, right? It doesn't get any bigger than that. So I think that at least from the agency perspective, I haven't talked to a lot. I have talked to some CMOs who have said that they feel like small agencies need to get like a better grip on data and some things like that. But I do think that for the most part, you're in the consideration set more than you were before. And the question is, I think some of the bigger clients went in initially thinking, well, they'll work cheaper.

17:22And I think that that's kind of changing, you know, but it's up to agencies to really make sure that they prove their value. You know, this is why we are worth what we're worth. It's hard to do. But I think that the pendulum is changing. Yeah, I so one of the sessions I led at small this year was about how to how to like leverage your independence to make it more of a value proposition to clients and make it worth something that they should not only care about, but pay for because being small or being independent doesn't necessarily mean you're cheaper. And one of the themes coming out of there was just the confidence that exists right now in the small agency community.

18:06And I absolutely loved it. I think there was a time when maybe we were afraid and we're not just like the big guys and what we bring is different, but we have to pretend like we're big and pretend like we're like them. And I think what I heard is, no, we're done pretending. This is who we are and this is what we're really great at. And I had multiple agency owners tell me, I would much rather compete against a holding company in a pitch than I would another independent, they are far easier to beat. And I thought, okay, like that, to me is a signal that there's there is something really working here.

18:40And it's being proven out. I mean, just looking at the body of work that was represented at small this year, really good work is coming out of this community. And so I thought that was exciting. Well, in the keynote, Megan Lally was our keynote this year. She did a whole list of, you know, how many independents were on the A-list versus a few years ago. And it's really true. I do think there's wind at the back of the independents. But that said, there are so many small agencies that you really need to carve an identity for yourself. Yeah. Because it can be tough to stand out from the next guy.

19:11So I think that's the big challenge everybody's facing right now. Yep. Yep. That's really good advice. I think positioning, yeah is really important we can all start to sound like the same huh

19:23Judy Pollack:you would know you got you guys get all the pitches all right let's go back to the board

19:32um seven okay you've been with adage since 1985 what's the most important industry story you would say that you've had a front row seat to? Well, this one's pretty easy. It was the Big Bang, which was the merger of Needham Harper Steers at the time and DDP and BBDO. And I had just pretty much started with Adage. And I was sharing a cubicle with a reporter, Stuart Alter, who was an amazing reporter. He was one of the best reporters I've ever known. And I would learn so much just listening to him on the phone, right? Right. And so he was that we were there one night. And again, we weren't print only at this point.

20:16Right. And so we were trying to decide if we could break this story to the three agencies. And we held the presses, which we'd never done. You know, that literally happens. And we're trying to figure out what to do. And there was a conference where we went into the bureau chief's office to try and figure out what to do. And I'm sitting in the cubicle and the phone rings. It's Stuart's phone. and I picked it up and it was the deep throat source who told him what the third agency was. So I always said, if I was in the bathroom or something, we would never have broken that story. Wow. I'm chill. That's really cool.

20:49That's really cool. So you get the phone call and then like, what happens? You run in there? I run in and I'm like, Stuart, Stuart. And then, you know, we had it for sure. And we started writing. So it could be exciting, breaking news can be super fun you know um and then the other one i might say was it was the failed merger of publicists and omnicom a few years ago right and when it fell through we just were trying to figure out what to do like like how do we address this what are we going to say yeah uh what are we going to say and uh so we ended up waiting to the last minute trying to find a cover.

21:32And I was talking to the editor at the time. And I'm like, why don't we just take the two words, nevermind, and put it on the cover. And that's what we did. It was a fully black cover with nevermind in little letters in the middle. And it was so funny because Jerry Della Femina had been in the office that day to do a video with me. And I showed him the cover and he said, you should be in advertising. You're like, I am. wow i love that do you have it at your house still you have it like framed or actually when we had our anniversary uh we had little playing cards made of different um different covers and that was one of them yeah that we ended up oh i love that that's incredible judy oh my gosh like what yeah it was that was really something but we worked all day we couldn't think of what could we do what kind of cover we had some drawing up that were just didn't cut it You know, we thought, well, that's the best way to do it.

22:28So, yeah, it's better than whoops. Awesome. All right. Let's go back to the board. Oh, lucky number one. OK. What makes you think I need to keep an eye on this shop? Is it their work, reputation, momentum, just really adorable owners? Oh, who are the adorable owners? I think, well, there's our discovery comes, believe it or not, a lot from the small agency awards. Right. We and I always say to people, even if you don't think you have any chance of winning, I really think you should enter. And it has nothing to do with, you know, finances or anything like that. We look through these and we go, wow, you know, I've never heard of this agency before.

23:13They're doing super, like really awesome work. So I think it's discovery through the awards. actually Conscious Minds have won this year. I had never really heard of them before and they won the whole thing. So I do think that that's a means for discovery. We also hear buzz in the market, right? People are saying, did you see that campaign? You know, Tim has a lot, Tim, Tim Nudd who does creativity. He gets these, all these cool campaigns in all the time. And we look at them and go, wow, you know, this is somebody maybe we need to have on our radar. Also, if somebody's really winning a lot of new business or something.

23:48I'm like, oh, okay, something's happening here. Let's keep looking. Or if there's a really major hire, like why did that person go there? You know, that's an agency we've never really heard of and they have a great big job somewhere else and they're leaving, you know? So there's a lot of things we look at, you know? We just try and keep our ear to the ground as much as possible. That's good advice for agencies. I know, at least for me at the last two agencies I've worked at, I've always said it's a five-year plan. You have to keep entering and it doesn't matter that we're not going to win. You got to get in front of them.

24:19They need to hear our story. And you're almost like writing your next year submission now, you know, like you can't wait until it's due. So I do, I'm, I'm actually really glad to hear you say that because no one's really ever validated that for me. I've just always said that was my theory. I'm like, that's gotta be kind of right. So I do appreciate that. And even if, you know, even if they don't win or whatever, we'll see things in the entry where this point of view is really interesting. The next time we're doing a story on talent, say, why don't we call that person? They had some really interesting things they said in their entry.

24:54So we also use it as sort of a way to find new sources for other stories. What really stood out for you with Conscious Minds? What made them the big winner? I think it was just their approach to social was so immersive. They really understood what Starbucks meant to consumers and really showed it in their work, how that manifested, whether it be through barista contests and little bear drinks and, you know, the intern jacket. I was joking to the president, he should have worn the intern jacket