Ashley Walters: “I Thought I Was God!” Turning Setbacks Into Success

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0:41Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin-Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only. Some exclusions apply. See store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders. For many, many years, I thought I was in control of it. I thought I was gone. It was addiction that humbled me. Mr. Waters, every setback that you've had, it seems like you've come two steps forward from the step.

1:12It's kind of easy because I've always been in problems. This is where I live in challenge. Have you always been a confident person? No. No, I have real big doubts in myself sometimes. My success is 5%. The rest of it has been rejection, been failure, and I clearly understand now that growth only happens with pain. If you didn't have the hard bits... I wouldn't be where I am today. I never regret sitting in that jail cell. Those hardships were all a part of this story. Why did you choose to make your directorial debut about prison? I didn't choose. It chose me. God said, you've got to direct this film.

1:50I'm not superhuman. I'm just you. But maybe I had a plan that you ain't got. You're quite clear, you have to do the work. As an addict, the addict that I am, I love working. It's really hard to have a work-life balance. Like a dream is only a dream if hard work doesn't follow it. Hi guys, my name's Ashley Waters and I'm reworking with Tim Campbell. How to get unstuck and keep moving forward.

2:25Hi, Tim here and welcome to Reworking. As you know, on this show, I sit with some inspirational people to help answer the questions that really matter to you about work and help you succeed on your own terms. This episode is focused on how to get unstuck and keep moving forward. Maybe you're feeling stuck in a job that you don't like, feeling like you're holding yourself back from trying something new or simply in a situation which doesn't feel right. Ashley Waters is among the best examples of someone who's consistently got stuck and unstuck. He pivoted from being an emcee to an actor and is now about to release his debut feature film as a director.

3:03But along the way, he's faced struggles, going to prison, battling with alcoholism in recent years and overcoming anxiety and self-doubt. He's here to explain how he made the jump from one career to the other, what he did to avoid getting stuck, and what you can do to turn your setbacks into successes. If you're feeling stuck at work, dreaming about a change, or looking for some solid advice on how to make your next move, this one's for you. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the conversation, so if anything resonates with you, please let me know in the comments.

3:36Mr. Waters, that's because you deserve the title. You don't laugh, it's a serious thing. I'll take it, I'll take it. It's a serious thing. I'm incredibly appreciative of you giving the time today. I think we're going to have a wonderful conversation. Everything people know will see the successes, but there's often been setbacks along the journey, right? Of course, yeah. So, but for every setback that you've had, it seems like you've come two steps forward from the step that's gone the wrong direction, right? Yeah. How do you do that?

4:05It's kind of easy. and I'm not saying it's easy because it's actually easy, right? But it comes with the territory because I've always been in problems. See, when you grow up and your life is like hard, right? And you're always overcoming obstacles and you're always having to do things or navigate around things that normal people or average people don't have to. i live this is where i live in challenge like if it's not challenging i'm probably not going to do it if it doesn't feel like it's going to be hard or i'm going to be go through pain to kind of get to the end of it or whatever i have no interest in it that's how bad it's got that's how hard the initial stage of this thing was that i can only live in that space now so when i say it's easy it's not easy because every you know it's hard to to get through things but i'm used to it and i and i clearly understand now that growth only happens with pain you know there's no way i'm going to become a better person a better man if i'm not going through something um you know to to to gain knowledge or you know to lose so i know how not to do it next time you know So there's someone who's watching us having this lovely conversation and they're stuck.

5:32They're feeling like they're not sure about what's going to happen next. What have you done to not stay stuck? Because you've taken lots of lefts, but then always come back around and you're back on the motorway again. I have to believe, it's self-belief. It's self-belief. And it's the understanding, like I just said, what I just alluded to, It's the understanding of like those spaces are actually to be embraced. Embrace them. I think people block their blessings a lot of time because they get to a juncture where they feel like, ah, now too hard, too hard, you know, and you start to close up or you start to go back the other way or whatever.

6:10And I've just always been like, come and take me. And I just, yeah, I'm in it, fully in it. And wherever it goes, it goes. And I think that's just like the attitude you got to have. That's the only way I've been able to have success. And like you said in the beginning, like my success is 5%, if that, of what's been going on behind the scenes. The rest of it has been rejection, been failure, you know what I mean? It's been dropping on the floor, getting back up or whatever. And the 5 % that the world, the rest of the world see, I guess, is the wins. But I had to go through all the losses to get there.

6:45So what do you do when you fall down? What's the first thing that you do usually when you fall down? Cry, complain, moan, throw my toys out the pram. Like all of the above. But I do it in private. I don't do it on social media. You know, I do it with the people that care about me the most. My mom, my wife, you know, they get to hear it. And then sleep on it, you know, sleep on it and try and work out what I've learned from it. Because there is nothing in this life that, you know, Any bad thing in this life, you can find some sort of positive out of it. I said that my uncle recently passed away.

7:28Yeah, and he was a big part of my life. And I was like, I've spent most days after that just meditating and asking why. You know what I mean? Praying and asking why and meditating to hear the answers. And the truth is, sometimes things like that are a reminder to you. I'm working so hard and like from plane to plane, from hotel to hotel, whatever. I've got a whole family, you know, a whole family that I don't see. Cousins, mom, you know, people that I don't see. And that I've stopped checking in on every day, right? And my uncle died so suddenly. so the lesson for me and that was very loud and clear was like nothing's more important than spending time with your loved ones and making sure they understand how much you love them you know and and and vice versa um because you never know when you're gonna it's gonna be the last time that you you see people you know i took that as a clear lesson from that what his daughter is taking from it might be different you know vice versa but there's always something to be taken from from something that seemingly is so negative at the time.

8:42So someone who's suffered a loss, they've taken a knock back, what would you advise them the first thing that they should be doing? I feel like when you're asking me these questions, you know the answer. Do you want me to tell you what I do? And I'm scared I'm going to get it wrong because you're Tim Campbell. Can you come home and meet my wife and tell her that? Because in my house, she has me no business for none of this foolishness. So let me be very clear, right? But you tell me that. So when I, some of the biggest losses I've had, right? My first business that I put quite a substantial amount of money in, collapsed completely, went to nothing.

9:20And I told the whole world I was going to do this. So very publicly, I had to acknowledge that I'd failed and admit to other people who didn't even know me that I wasn't as big as I thought I was, right? And I thought in those moments, everyone cared. Everyone was going to judge me. Everyone was going to have an opinion. the reality is no one cared no one cared because they've got their own problems they've got their own stuff but in my head with the 20 million tabs that were running around and all the different scenarios I was planning and the voices that I could hear telling me all the different things I believed I was the centre of that universe and the reality was just one little speck of sand in that universe once I put that in perspective it gave me the confidence to start and go again because the second you win like you've had the two steps forward no one remembers the losses they don't care about them because they're like, oh my gosh, you're the greatest thing to say.

10:09You're only as good as your last job, bro. That's how it works. So for me, the reason why I'm leaning into this is not because there's a right or wrong answer. What I'm trying to do, Mr. Walters, is get your answer because people look up to us on platforms and they say, I would love to have a piece of that. But what they don't see is that 95 % you just talked about. So when I'm asking Chris, I'm saying, what do you do? What's your mechanism? what's your first step when something gets you a bit vexed what's your first step first of all i'll say off the back of what you said first of all keep yourself to yourself like i don't i used to i used to talk a lot about what i was doing when people ask me now what are you doing next or whatever i go a lot you know what i mean you go a lot what's the next show that's coming there's this stuff coming you know i mean i keep it humble okay because i've realized that speaking about things before they actually exist is detrimental.

11:06Whether it's there's people out there that don't want you to succeed as much as you think and they put a thing on it. But I just think there's something universal, like spiritually, about like, you know, putting stuff out there too much or boasting too much or whatever. Don't chat your business too quick. Yeah, it comes back to you. So that definitely won. But second one that I picked up or remembered when you were speaking was this whole God complex. For many, many years in my career, I thought I was in control of it. I thought I was God. You know, I thought I was the one making the moves and making things happen.

11:42And it took me, I had to be humbled. You know, I had to be, it was addiction that humbled me really. And - You're about to say what addiction? Alcohol, drugs. made me, you know, when that stopped for me and I hit rock bottom and I had to go and seek help

12:05and find a better spiritual place for myself, I realized that. I realized I was getting in the way of myself so much because I thought I had all the answers and I thought I was in control. Now, I don't control anything. I don't control anything. I control what I try to achieve every day, right? Let's not get that wrong. Like, you know, I put one leg in front of the other. So every day my job is to make sure I am the best person I can be. I talk to people with respect. I treat people how I want to be treated. You know, I love my wife. I love my kids or whatever. I fail at these things every day, bro.

12:42This ain't no perfect pass or anything, but that's my aim, right? Right. Other than that, outside of that, I can't control anything. People, places, things, they are all going to do what they're doing. I have to control the way I react to those things. So essentially, I'm not God. Right. And I think once I got out of my way, I allowed God's blessings, you know, to come. Before that, I was blocking them, blocking them. No one's going to tell me what to do. I'm going to do this. And this is what I'm going to do. And sometimes you just got to kick back, listen to what's going on around you, you know, and move accordingly and listen to the answers because they come, you know, they come.

13:25Where you are now, what's the greatest lesson or the great experience that taught you that was important? I mean, I've had several. Work-related-wise, I'd say there was a big one. There was a big film. I'm not going to mention the film. I'm not going to mention the actor but it was a big American film that I was potentially in the run-ins for that I was desperate to have and was very disloyal in that space because I had something already and it was the greatest thing to me in the world until this thing came and I was like, nah, I ain't doing you lot's thing anymore I gotta do this and I didn't manage to get out of that contract and I didn't do it and I resented that, you know, for a long period of time and then if that film happened, there'd be no Top Boy.

14:26Do you get what I'm saying? 100%. And that was like, it was a big thing for me to be like, you know what? God knows what I'm meant to be doing and where I'm meant to be. He's on his own time. I don't argue about those things anymore. You know, no matter how much money it is, no matter how much or whatever, I'm like, bye. I let it go it weren't meant to be you know I know I've got to follow this path and that was a big lesson for me when it comes to work and I'm going to name drop a good friend of mine Daniel Kaluuya right he said to me one day he said bro he said it's not about the stuff you say yes to you know bro it's about the stuff you say no to you know what I'm saying yep and that was a big lesson for me as well you know I realized I was like you know when you're out there and you're chasing you're chasing i don't know how long this is going to last i'm going to take this job i'm going to take that job no i don't really like that job but i'm going to take it because might not be working six months time i need the money and and changing that about myself and like solely going for what i was passionate for when you know where my heart lied has changed my career.

15:40You know, that's when I made choices like adolescence and, you know, and making Animal as a passion project and stuff like that. And look what's happening with those things. Those are things I thought, what I'm doing because I just love, but I don't know whether they're going to be big or not. And they're already picking up momentum. It's like such a spiritual sort of movement when it happens. Yeah, I'm proud of that. I'm proud of learning that lesson. And we are proud as observers of seeing this stuff, right? Because for many people who are at the beginning of their journeys, they may not know that scarcity is not a good way to focus on stuff.

16:22Because if you think there's only one opportunity, of course you're going to take it because it's the only one. But you have a belief that there's going to be a myriad of different things that will come your way and you can be selective. But that takes a lot of confidence. Have you always been a confident person? No. No. I mean, I'm probably not that confident now, to be honest. But I mean, I can work a room. You know what I mean? I can pitch or whatever. But I have real big anxiety, man. You know, I have real big doubts in myself sometimes. And I do. And that's where your network comes in. That's where your real network, your network is your net worth, as they say.

17:01Because when I go home, I'm just Ashley. Everyone's like, leave that coat. outside bro it's we're not interested take out the bins in it yeah yeah yeah take out the bins it's decorate the room is do what you need to do but no one's treating me like a superstar in there and i love that you know and i love being reminded of those things because the reality is you know the other side of it the entertainment side of it it's not real you know it's not real i'm a real person but like this the persona the the red carpets the awards this it's all great stuff but what does it mean because my son doesn't care about any of those things and he doesn't see me as that person i am just dad so dad are you going to be present are you going to listen to what i'm saying and give me the time that you need to um even if you can't do it all the time like in this moment are you going to stop thinking about work and give me because he knows he doesn't know how to articulate that but he knows what the quality of the time that I'm given whether it's real or not you know and that's what matters the most that's the most important thing if I come out of this and I make all this money and I buy my kids the best things in the world and they can't talk to me about their girlfriend or they can't lean on my shoulder or cry about what they're going through and I support them.

18:32I've done nothing. I've done nothing, you know? My daughter came around just Sunday. She's moved out of my house now. She's 25. She's a big woman. Are you happy? I'm sad. Yeah, yeah. I'm sad. I remember holding my daughter like this and now she's gone. I'm proud of her, but I miss her. I miss her immensely. Like it breaks my heart that she doesn't need me, but I've succeeded because she doesn't need me right so it's that juxtaposition of wanting her to be great but not at the same time and I suppose for you you're in a position now where you're working so hard to give your family the opportunity you want you know with your wife she sacrificed things that you can go off and do same with my wife right there's a lot of responsibilities on our shoulders how do you balance that?

19:21it's a tough one man it's a tough one boundaries like there's definite boundaries i have to set and i've had to i've had to lose things you know i've lost a lot of friends i mean i wouldn't even say they were friends to be fair um but lost a lot of people a lot of baggage um and set a lot of boundaries with my time um that's the only way you know and then the rest of it is still up and down still navigating in still getting it wrong you know i could do like this year what did i do i finished my job i said i said to my pa all right the next five weeks we're blocking out i'm going on holiday for five weeks i've never done that i've never done that like it doesn't even sound like a long period of time to some people but for me that's long i can't even keep still for two seconds two seconds So I'm like, that was a lot, big commitment for me.

20:22And I did that and said, like, this is you lot's time. You know, this is your time. I'm free to do, you guys wake up in the morning, you tell me whatever we're doing, I ain't complaining. I'm not going to, I ain't saying anything. And I did it. I did it for five weeks. And then I come back and they still want more. It's not enough. You know, but now I'm working. So now it's like, but it's about, I have to put the boundaries in. I have to be like, you know. What's your one non-negotiable with your boundaries? Well, the top one, what's the number one? Like birthdays, birthdays, like milestones. I'm not missing them.

21:04Locked in? Yeah, I'm not missing them, that stuff. I mean, even if it's not locked in, because sometimes we forget. You know how it goes. October coming up is my son's birthday. And I'm like, oh my God, I never said to the PA in the diary. but unfortunately I'm not coming in that day. So we've got to work it out because I remember being that age, you know, and my dad not turning up most times and that killed me. It still kills me to this day. And like with everything, you know, I see, because you got to watch out for is my kids actually see me playing someone else's dad. Do you know what I'm saying?

21:41They see me like loving on and acting as, you know what I mean, a dad that has a nine to five. I might be playing a barrister or, you know, a nine to five or whatever. And I'm playing this man that spends all this time with these children. And then actually for the 10 months that I'm shooting that show, they're more my kids than my actual kids. That's because I'm seeing them every day. You know, we're developing a relationship and a rapport and I'm giving them advice and this and that. And my kids see that. um so it's important that i let them you know i mean i remind them like how important they are to me you know how important this whole thing that we have is the bond and everything and that they're special and they're more special than the other people that they may see me giving all this love to or seemingly giving all this love to are you know you are the most important things in my life but it's really tough.

22:37That goes astray sometimes, man. You know, the lines are blurred.

22:44So when you're being pulled in all these different directions, lots of people will say you should have work-life balance. That's the phrase that lots of our viewers will be juggling with. But you're quite clear, you have to do the work. When the work's there, you have to put the time in. The work has to be done. And, you know, I keep on using this phrase nine to five. I use that because it's very different to what I do because I don't know what days I'm going to be working. Sometimes I work Saturdays, Sundays, you know. Bank holidays. Bank holidays, you know, not Christmas Day, but up until Christmas Eve, New Year's Day.

23:16Like I've worked all of these things and I've missed, I've missed my mom's wedding. You know what I mean? I've missed birthdays. I've missed important parts of my life. So people don't get it. It's like, it's really hard to have a work-life balance in this job because you never know when you're going to work. So the idea is actually when you're not working or you can make a decision that you're not going to work and you're in that privileged position that you choose your family, that you choose those people. But as an addict, the addict that I am, I love working. You know, I love working. Yeah, it gives me joy.

23:52It gives me joy. Why? I feel free. I feel like when I'm in a creative flow you know when you hit that flow state and it's like coming out of you and I don't even know how it's coming out of me there's no greater feeling than that there's no greater drug than getting that right and then creating something for like a year a year and a half and thinking in your mind I think I did good or whatever but you never actually know like I actually find out I know I did my best but I don't know how it comes across until you guys tell me like that was amazing and that's your best you know people said adolescence that's the best thing it's your best performance ever i'm like that's rubbish no way have you not seen sugar house it's all subjective isn't it it's all uh you know but those it gives it just gives me great joy man to be able to do what i do and to be able to have a family at the same time and and maintain those two things.

24:54How I'm doing it, but I don't really know. I heard you, you told Fern Cotton when you spoke to her that acting is like, you never really enjoyed it. But everyone watching out, whether it is Sugarhouse, whatever, they're like, this guy is amazing. Like, you are so gifted and blessed, right? But you just see it as just anything. No, it's not anything. It is, it's too much. Okay. That's the issue is, I'm, I've, I have a problem with accepting compliments. Okay. So you said to me how good I am several times. I'm just, I'm not hearing you, bro. When you start saying that stuff, I'm like, okay. Oh, here you go, yeah.

25:43All right, whatever. Like, I still don't believe it properly myself. And that, that's been a huge issue for me. I don't have that issue with directing. I'll tell you now I think I'm quite dope I think I'm quite dope but I've got the control there and that's the issue as a director I picked everything it's my idea I picked the people that I'm working with I picked my environment as an actor you're plunked you are one piece in this chess game and you're being moved and controlled and used and whatever and you don't have that sort of control and that sends me crazy that sends me crazy um and i get anxiety from that um and in turn you know what that's turned into is sometimes not being able to give my best when i'm doing it and i know that i'm not because i'm closed i'm like i can feel my body is tense and whatever so that's what i was kind of saying with in the fern situation and that's only come about i've only realize that in the last six years since i got sober and clean because before i was medicating myself so much that i didn't know how i felt about anything and now like all those things are gone i'm like whoa i'm having all these dreams and like i can see things for what they are and anxiety and panic attacks and you know things start happening so it became a very like hard space for me to to deal with and although i was doing it it was taking so much out of me there's this training i go home and i can't talk to people i can't live you know i mean because i was just like i'm so scared about tomorrow i'm so fixated on getting it right because i don't want people to think i'm not good and a camera will cut and the director will start talking to someone in the corner of the room and i'm like is he talking about me yeah trying to lip read you know like doing all the weirdest stuff bro weird at all yeah and it's like it's all up there in my head so so directing became a safe space it became it was more more than like i like it it was about like oh i feel i feel calm here in the director's seat and everyone's like are you not going because no one's they don't stop asking you questions it does not stop it's like a barrage constant all day but i find peace in that i was happy i'm happy because i had the answers and you're delivering Yeah You've already won prizes Yeah I mean You proud?

28:20Tim Stockman You're doing it on purpose now Are you proud? I am proud I am proud I am proud But there's no If I'm honest with you The proudest I've been was Three days ago Go on And I've never felt this before But my son Booked his first role he's nine and I've been behind the scenes secretly for years just facilitating and supporting his growth Is that Viacom as an actor no it's not Viacom he's not old enough Kingdom is 16 plus so you know he's been going to a drama school secretly he's been doing one on ones he's got a singing coach and whatever and we've been doing this since he was three he's nine now and he recently got an agent and he's booked his first job I can't even say what the job is because they're not they're not letting us announce I said but I took him to his last audition so he's been in the finals and I cleared my diary because I'm like I need to be there that's one of the lock-ins yeah it's one of the lock-ins so I've been going back and forth with him you know to this casting and the last casting was the other day and the lady came in and she was like look you know only three of them are going to get in the other three won't and we're just letting you know as parents it's a hard one and we know how hard it is for them or whatever and I'm like It started to build up a tension in me because I was like, I don't want this boy.

29:48I know how much he wants it and I don't want him to be told no. But I know he's got it. I know he's got it. And we left and they said like, it was on a Friday and they said, you're not going to find out till Monday, Tuesday. So just enjoy your weekends and whatever. And we got in the car. It's a three hour drive back home. And an hour into the drive, my wife rang FaceTime and she was like, got something to tell you guys. Whatever. And she said, you got it, bro. Nothing beats it. I'll cry now. That feeling, I've never felt anything like that in my life. My son, my son. It was the best feeling in the world, bro.

30:33I just, she told me he was sitting in the back. I turned around to him. We're in the middle of the street. I just stopped the car, put it in park in the middle of the street. And that car was just shaking. because me and him were just holding each other going yeah in each other's face both crying streaming I had to pull over in the B &Q car park and I prayed I just prayed I was like praise the Lord man like this is amazing I had to throw that in there I was like there's nothing nothing I've ever done I have ever achieved could beat that feeling nothing ever but I think that's an important thing for our listeners is that no matter what success you have you still need a grounding that's yours and I know lots of people have success on the face of things they've got the money they've got the cars they've got the houses they're constantly on Instagram travelling around but they go home to an empty house they have no one in their corner no one backing them you've got that's how you win so is it important for you to tell people to have something else that you control rather than what stuff do you just give them yeah I think so I think you have to you have to I have to be able to exist outside of the Ashley Waters that everyone else knows, right?

31:47Is that why you moved out of London and stuff? Yeah, definitely. I mean, that was about, that was about, I think a lot of that, well, my therapist would say, a lot of that is about trauma. A lot of that is about trauma and about feeling safe. And around my Soul Solid years, when there was all the, you know, the gun stuff and everything was happening, the road stuff, I was like, I was very fearful as a person. It made me a recluse. I didn't want to go out anywhere or whatever. And I think like in my mind, in the back of my mind, I wanted to create a safe haven for myself. You know, I wanted to, I couldn't afford that, what I wanted in London.

32:23So outside of London became, you know, a target for me. So yeah, that's kind of what took me out. Like my whole thing for the last maybe decade has been about what happens after this. and I didn't really think about that before but I'm starting to think about legacy I'm starting to think about like what do I leave my kids and how do we break the generational wealth curse that exists especially within the black community so that kind of turned me to different things because I was very risk averse like I didn't want to invest in anything I can't see what's happening Yeah, they're coming up to me with figures and whatever.

33:06I'm just like, you're just lying, obviously. You're like, oh, it's going to do well. You're not going to say it's going to do bad, are you? You know what I mean? It's true. So I've always had that attitude, like, you ain't getting my money. And it's my wife that convinced me to get into property. So she's been basically like, give me the money, you know what I'm saying, and let me deal with it. She was an estate agent for many years, so she kind of knew, understood property and the ins and outs and stuff. So she's just been doing that side of the business for us. And I've slowly but surely started to become a bit more kind of involved in investing.

33:44But I'm new to the game, man. But getting back to your question, like trying to invent something outside of, you know, the work that I do and my main work has been important. But more importantly, it's just been like really embracing that role of like the family man. and being a dad. I've been married 13 years now. Congratulations. Yeah. And it's gone so quick. Blink. Yeah, like a blink of an eye, bro. But I feel like, my wife will probably say something different, but I feel like I've got the hang of it now. Okay. Now. Now? Yeah, yeah. You sure? Last two years, maybe. Okay, that's good. Last two years, like understanding the ins and outs of this partnership, you know what I mean, and how it works.

34:36So that's very interesting because for many of us, we never saw long-term relationships. We never saw marriage. We never saw, I know there's enough Campbells who will phone me up and say, I'm related to you. Like my dad was an interesting guy. You know, that's the laugh, we all know, right? I know what you're saying. So what have you learned about relationships? what's the big thing that you've learned well you can't have one by yourself takes two hands to clap in it yeah yeah I I'm I've I've been solo so long in what I do it's so hard to invite someone into it that I realised that I didn't see that in the first movie five six years of my marriage I just thought why do you want to know everything like what why you go away like what's all this we've got to talk about it's nothing to do with you this is my thing but it's not you know my company's your company my decisions are your decisions you know the same way i would look at and i even say this to my kids i'm like look you're all out there doing your things or whatever just know you get into a fight or something like that it it reflects on me yeah the papers are going to be saying rare rare waters son or daughter of right and then i'm going to be involved in this so we all are one and we all got to move collectively and i'm very adamant about that but for some reason with my wife i was like nah nah this is my thing do you know what I mean and I got very and it's taken me so long to share to just share you know I was an only child I grew up as an only child I had brothers from my dad but I never grew up with them I was my mum's only child I still am so I had everything to myself you know when my cousins used to come over my whole thing was my mum was like let them come in and play playstation with you I'd be like the playstation's too hot it's overheating so we can't play it anymore yeah yeah that was my thing all the time so i i find it struggle to share and my wife's the opposite of me she's so family orientated i used to come home when we first got married come home to the house and her mom her brother her niece and whatever they're all on the one sofa lying on each other like dominoes all hugging watching eastenders or whatever and i'd come in the front of me and be like what is this i can't i can't do this you know what i'm saying like because i'm such a i'm an isolated man i'm an introvert you know what i'm saying i don't want to share too much and talk too much um and i really had to get used to that and now it's to the point that like i'm i was missing that that's why i resented it so much you know there was a reason behind it i didn't grow up like that and my mom's great i love my mom we have a beautiful relationship but she's not tactile she's not lovey lovey you know yeah it's like it's only the last three years i had to force her i was like mom when you put down the phone and i say i love you you can say you should say i love you back do you know i mean and she just didn't get that concept so that's how i grew up so all that stuff for me was like oh oh it's a bit too much but actually is what i actually wanted you know i i miss that and i really embrace that now um so i'm anyway i'm thankful for my wife she showed me so much um she is she is the better half of me i know it's cliche but she is and none of this kind of new sober you know focus actually would have happened without without mrs waters Amen to her.

38:30Mrs. Campbell too. If you didn't have the hard bits, the addiction, the alcohol, etc., do you think you would have made the successes that you have today? Do you think you needed those hard bits? oh no yeah yeah yeah I mean I wouldn't have made I wouldn't be where I am today and I needed those hard bits and this is what I say like people get so caught up because you could easily say when I was sitting in that jail cell there was nothing positive about that that feeling you know what I'm saying but I made a career off of that negative press that I got from that do you know what I'm saying it gave me some kudos so when I when I did Top Boy part of the reason why people were watching that was that that's the brother that went to jail he had a gun so he must know what he's talking about you know what I'm saying that credibility got me that role so yeah I never I never regret any of those parts of it you know it's like those hardships were all a part of this story they're all those scars are all a part of the man you see today and how wise I am in certain things and how stupid I am in other things still you know what I mean so someone who's feeling stuck in their current situation they should embrace what they have and try and find a way to build on top of that right yeah and look I'll get comments where people are like yeah but it's easier said than done bro like you know we can't all right and you know we're right you're right but I do make it clear I think I am you know other actors that come up to me and other directors and stuff like that just coming in the game and they'll be like bro how really like you've done so amazing or whatever and i'm like bro i'm not superhuman i'm just you but maybe i had a plan that you ain't got so that's what you gotta be looking for get the plan do you know what i'm saying get the plan stick to it it will change it will divert, you know, and you've got to adjust or whatever.

40:42But I think you'd be amazed how many people are waiting. Tell me about that. Well, I just, you know, sometimes like one of my sons, I do talk to him sometimes. I'm like, bro, do you think you're just going to turn 26 or whatever? And then the house drops in the floor and the car just drops and maturity just drops or whatever. It's like, you've got to go and get, like you have to go and get, You have to put yourself in spaces to achieve, to see the opportunities. You can't just hole up in your house and be waiting for it. So sometimes I think a lot of people feel that way. Like a lot of people feel entitled.

41:22You know what I'm saying? And a lot of people don't understand the concept of like a dream is only a dream if hard work doesn't follow it. That's it. You know, it's like we talk about this stuff. It's not complicated. It's a simple, it's a simple, a simple idea for complicated people. That's where the complication comes, you know? My mum always says, everyone's got the same 24 hours. It depends what you do. Exactly. And that's the facts. We're not, we didn't stop time. We haven't got no superpowers. You just get off the proverbial and go and do the work, right?

42:00So you started talking about work because I want to talk about work because I think what you have done by making the leap from actor to director is huge. And I think people just automatically assume that's an easy thing to do. But you've had to actually start from the bottom and learn something again, out of your comfort zone, with all eyes watching you at the same time. At the peak of your career success, you've done something new. What are you telling people who are watching about what it took to do that, to start something from scratch? um it took a passion it took a it took an aggression it there was certain aggression within that because it was it came through beef it didn't come through me going i have this huge burning desire to direct it came through people telling me i couldn't come on tell us more about it yeah so well i was i was going through a period where i was doing top boy and bulletproof pretty much at the same time i was going from one to the other and i just saw that the american business model was once an actor had been in a show led a show for a year two years you come to the third season you see their directing that's right now i just thought why are we not doing that in the uk no i don't i not see that with our actors here so i asked i was like can we put something in the contract that if i want i can yeah i have the option to direct an episode and the pushback man was it was just too much for me i didn't mind if you just say no but the whole now we don't think you could and you haven't got enough uh you know knowledge and enough experience or whatever for us or whatever see all of that stuff don't ever say that to me that's the switch never yeah that was the trigger for me so straight away i was like i'm very diplomatic so i was like all right cool that's fair enough i understand whatever i put down the phone i call my business partner um who is the most focused um logistical man you could meet right and i said they said i can't how and he's like well what we're going to do you're going to make a short film yeah and we're going to keep on making short films as proof of concept until people take you seriously so i said but how are we going to make it so we're going to pay for it ourselves he's like yeah we could probably do it for like 13 grand we'll get that together it's fine two weeks time he came back he said i got you 194 000 and you were laughing just like that I was like what I was like where from he's like don't worry the same people that told you you couldn't make the film I got it from them I was like okay we shot a film five days I sent it to a bunch of agents I got an agent next day by three weeks after that I was on the set of Ackley Bridge setting up season five and I didn't know what I was doing I was sitting in the production in the coaching office doing this thing they called prep.

45:10I'm like, prep? What the hell is prep? I've never done that before. So I was sitting in the office. They gave me an office with my name on it, and I just sat there for two weeks. Doing prep, doing prep. Looking at the wall prepping. Going out to lunch when people come in going, I'm busy now, yeah, yeah, come in. But it was a big learning curve, you know. And yeah, the rest, it just went from there. I did that. I loved it. A Thousand Blows came in with Disney. I did that, loved it. And then it was like, I was like, you know, I want to make films. Actually, I didn't get into directing to direct TV.

45:49I feel like they're two totally different mediums. And film is where a director is really celebrated and not really the writer or the actors. It's more about what the director did. So I was like, I always wanted to get into that. so Animal has been you know it's been a long time coming for me but and it was a scrap to get in there but you don't mind fighting though no I didn't mind fighting I mean that's what I do you know it's what I've always done I'm not Anthony Joshua but you know metaphorically in this space we're boxing every day because people don't want you to succeed you know and I hate to go into it but race plays a big part in that you know and how do you deal with it because I find it incredibly frustrating.

46:33As Tony Morrison said, discrimination of any kind is tiring. It's hard to have to constantly have to justify when you see others not having to do the same. How do you not let that wear you down and to keep going for what you're focused on? You constantly have to remember what you've affected, like what you've been a part of and what you brought to the table. And people are, yeah, so I've got to remind myself because like I said to you, I struggle when people tell me. But I got to remind myself, like, look, you know, that wouldn't have been that if I weren't a part of that. So I have value. You know, whatever you think of me or whatever, there's a reason why I'm here.

47:14There's a reason why I need to be here. And there's a reason why this is going to work the way it works. And part of that reason is because of me, you know.

47:27And I can't believe the hype. it works both ways it works both ways like all the negative stuff yeah I've got to be like nah that ain't me brush it off but also when they're all going when they're all going you're amazing and you're just alright cool yeah until next week you want to tell me you know what I mean you're cancelled or you're this or you ain't shit like so you just gotta you know you have to just try and find some sort of balance but just know your worth and know who you are and that can go astray but I feel like that goes astray when you know that you're not doing what you're meant to be doing, you know?

48:03And you're now in your space, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, bro, I'm just in my bag. I've never... 44 is one of the best ages. My whole 40s have been like crazy. You know, Tim, I weren't sitting there... I was sitting there getting ready to pack up acting. Within the space of a year, I was in America. nominated for an Emmy and a Golden Globe. That wasn't on the cards for me. That wasn't going around in my head like, that's going to be happening soon or whatever. Like, I weren't thinking those things. So I have to pinch myself sometimes and I proper respect what this thing is. But I will fight as much as I need to fight to get what I need to get from it, you know?

48:54So you've talked often, because I love the fact that you are leading the charge now. You are in control. You are in the director's chair, right? We've also said that lots of people will want to stereotypically put you in boxes. They want to constantly refer back to negative things that have happened or put labels upon you. Why did you choose to make your first directorial debut about prison? Yeah. I didn't choose. I didn't choose. It chose me. I know that sounds really wanky and weird. No, no, no, no. I don't know if I can swear on it. Of course you can. This is real. but yeah it chose me because so Nick Nick Love who wrote the film great friend of mine brilliant director in the UK scene go we produced and wrote Bulletproof together we were shooting in South Africa we were always like during the day me and him would go out we'd go yoga we'd go gym we'd go for a walk or whatever and he was just like I fucking love it I love you I fucking love you and I was like yeah I love you too bro I love you too man He's like, we should fucking work.

50:00We should work together more. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Well, let's do a film. I said, yeah. Let's write it together. I said, yeah, that'd be good. But with Nick, there's no writing anything with him. I know this man. So two days, three days later, there's already a script in my email. Animal. Same name. Story done. And he sent me the script. I was in my apartment in South Africa. I remember I had two days off. I sat in the sun. I read that outside. and I was just blown away. I was blown away. I was like, it's a very, it just felt different to the genre and the genre the way I knew it. You know, the vulnerability of the lead character of Troy, you know, the exploration of his sexuality within that environment, in that homophobic space.

50:55But the strength and the hope that came from it as well, I just thought it was a different perspective. And now I look, I knew already, me and Nick, we know each other's background. We've been through a lot of the same things. I know he experienced Borstal time and stuff when he was young. And obviously I had the Young Offenders experience. So we kind of bonded over that. And I just felt at that point with the lead character being black and us touching upon queerness and sexuality, I was like, I have to do this. God said, you got to direct this film. You're the only one that can direct this film and get people, especially homophobic people or people that fight struggling to understand sexuality in this space.

51:39It's like you are the only one that's going to be able to tell this story for them, that they're going to be able to come to the table, listen, and create a conversation after that might help them move forward. And that's why I did it, bro, really. It wasn't, you know, it was a calling. It was like, yeah, I need to tell this story because I've always been the man that's like, I don't want to, my first film is not going to be, if you look at the shows I did, I did Actley Bridge. That's a school in Yorkshire. You know, it's a teeny bopper thing. A Thousand Blows, it's a period drama. You know, I didn't want to shoot anything that everyone was expecting me to shoot.

52:15But I let go of my rule book for Animal because I knew it was an important story to tell and I just didn't want anyone else to fuck it up. I was just like, I know, I've been to prison I know I'm not queer but I've been around so many black men that have struggled to come out because of what society will say what their people will say and whatever so I understood a bit of that tension and I just thought yeah no I have to do this I have to do this I want to create conversation I want you know that's probably the most important thing to me it's not about like people going that film was good or that film was sick actually you don't even have to like it did you talk about it after what parts did you talk about touched you yeah what touched you and what has that conversation created because i i feel like you saw that wave happen with adolescence i mean it was that forceful with that it became a commercial effect because it was like house of parliament and you know i mean 10 down the street or whatever it's like i i'm maybe not expecting that from animal but just a certain part of the community that maybe don't just refuse to have these questions i thought if i attach my name to this they might come out you know and not be expecting certain feelings or whatever and then have to deal with it and you know is there a conversation to be had after i think it's very important when you think about the worlds of football the worlds of certain communities from certain countries where nobody talks about these conversations i think it's very important that we own the conversation there there's a great film Sticks and Stones that was done by a friend of mine Paul Walsh where it went on to underground club scenes in London where there are outwardly gay individuals but they can't they can't ever tell their families who they really are when I think about people like Luther Vandross who died no one knowing what he was about and singing to audiences saying see me and no one could actually see him for who he is it's incredibly important I think we can't coast through thinking that we want everybody to accept us for who we are if we can't accept ourselves as we are manifested in every single form.

54:22So I can't wait for you to hear what the conversation is. That whole film for me, that's what it's about. That's the underlying theme is being your authentic self, being allowed the space to be the person that you are no matter what. And for individuals learning, you know, for so many years, I didn't speak to family members because they did this or they did that. I missed out. I could have taken them at where they were, right? and I could have had some beautiful relationships with people regardless of who they were in their own world or their own space. I think we missed that. And this film is about encouraging that.

55:04It's about encouraging that. You could look around on TV, on social media and whatever and feel like there's no humanity here anymore. And I could understand why people would feel that. It's depressing. But the truth is there is. There's still pockets and places where humanity exists. And that's why it's so important to make this film because regardless how harrowing this kid's experience is, there's people in there that do things that go totally against what you would expect them to do still. There's still outliers. There's still, you know, like... Yeah, there's still hope, man. I'm trying not to talk about specific seasons.

55:48or whatever, but there's still, there's still definitely hope out there. Listen, I love that you're leading that child, but you've talked often about you being quite comfortable working by yourself or being by yourself. You've worked with Stephen Graham a number of times. How important has he been for you and your career? Oh, very, very important. Very important. I couldn't say anything else. I mean, I met Stephen 25 years ago, maybe now, whatever. We did a job together on MTV. It was a really short stint, but we just hit it off. You know, we were going through a lot of the same stuff at the time.

56:25We resonated and clicked. And we stayed in touch, but we never got to work with each other again after that job. I think we actually did a film called Goal, which we were both in, but never filmed together.

56:42So next time we worked together was A Thousand Blows. You know, and that was... But we've always stayed in touch. And Steve's always been there at key moments in my life, you know, and always shown up when I'm needing him, help-wise. He's just a man that cares, you know. And in this industry, I guess, most of it is real fickle, fake relationships. Superficial. Yeah, it's just like, you know, you meet people, You meet people out there that be like friends and you see them together all the time, but they don't know where each other lives. Yeah. And they've never met each other's wives. Never broken bread, nothing.

57:23Yeah, yeah. And it's like... But they were my brand, really? Yeah. It's like, I don't know whether you know them or not yet. You know what I mean? It's like, but me and Steve had that thing. It's like, we, and God always puts us together. There was a time where we hadn't seen each other for like six, seven years. and I went Alton Towers with my wife just randomly we was just like let's just go to Alton Towers it was my birthday and we were in Nottingham I was like let's go to Alton Towers just for the day or whatever or was it Cheserton whatever's close to Nottingham I think it's Alton Towers and got in a car park and Steve and Hannah are in there bad they just decided to do the same thing on the same day and I'm like and we hadn't seen each other in seven years but we always have that and you know there's signs there's just signs about someone you're like you know and we fall out man like we've had our ups and downs and we've had our bits and bobs and whatever but we stick with each other you know and I think that's love you know you don't you don't know how much how I think sometimes you never know how influential people can be in your life you know unless you know until sometimes until it's too late you know but I give I give this man his flowers now because he's much more than than the actor.

58:39Like what he's doing behind the scenes, how passionate he is about people and pushing the game forward and paying his dues is to be respected. There's not many people doing that. Amen. I want to talk about masks now, right? I know I have to show up in certain ways in certain spaces because that's what's expected and sometimes that's what's necessary to get the job done, right? But then sometimes I get tired of wearing masks and I just want to turn up as Tim. I'm not too sure everyone's always ready for that, but sometimes they do get to see it, right? That can be tough to do sometimes because you've got to protect yourself, but also be aware that you've got to be authentic, right?

59:28Is it something that you do in spaces to protect yourself? Yeah, I... I'm the worst for that like my family are like you code switch too much it's a bit too deep because I'll go into rooms and I'll be like the most well-spoken person in the room bro and then like we're here now I'm just back to Ashley on the roads you know what I mean it just I flip especially with my kids my kids are quite posh you know they've gone to private school their circle of friends is different to what I grew up with so even with my son my nine-year-old son sometimes I'm like I want to say to him, am I too dumb for you?

1:00:07You know when you're like, are you embarrassed that I'm your dad? Because this guy is like next level to me. Yeah, so even with him, I've got to step up my game. You know, and I think you naturally do that. I think we all wear masks. And I think, actually, I think it's important to have the mask, to be fair. I do think it's important to have the mask because the reality of the world is people don't always accept you for who you are. you know and you i've learned which spaces i can feel freer in like it's not ideal and i think everyone should be able to be who they are whenever they want to be but we know how it goes we know that if you send your your son out to to a job in if you and he wears a track suit and a hoodie or whatever no one's going to take him seriously so we gotta push them to wear this suit or whatever but life shouldn't be like that you know people should get an opportunity whatever but you have to do certain things you have to conform to a certain extent in certain spaces and you know that's what i do but sometimes you're quite right i give sometimes i mess it up and i give um the well-educated you know i mean um well-spoken yeah speak-spoken person and all they wanted was ash from the block you know i mean that would have got me the job because actually what we're looking for is that.

1:01:26In the director's chair, which Ashley is there? Are you wearing a mask to be the director, Ashley? Nah, nah. Well, so the way I direct, I shouldn't even give this information away. But yeah, you've got to give it away to keep it. All right, so I, my whole directing thing is based on hostage negotiation, right? so I read a lot of hostage negotiation books and listened to a lot of audio and YouTube stuff and I treat my actors like hostages and I'm the negotiator and so the idea is I never told them what to do but I am telling them what to do and I work that out and I take everyone individually there's not a blanket system that works here it is essentially people management once you've done the job right so if i've casted well i should be it should be playing sailing it should be turn the camera on where i want it to be and you guys just go i shouldn't be having too many conversations with you because you do what you do you know and and other than that you're setting up an environment like a safe space for people to feel free to make mistakes so what i'll do is i will make mistakes in front of them and rather than hide those mistakes from them i share them with them you know i mean actually i thought we should do this but i think that's shit now and i don't know what to do any ideas you know now this is a collaboration you know and then they come up with some stuff that i never thought of and you And then I get inspired by that and we vibe off that.

1:03:12But yeah, it's all about like managing people's expectations. Yeah. I could talk to you forever, Ashley, right? It's facts. We get to this end stage where we're thinking about what advice are you going to give to our listeners in terms of stuff that you've experienced that could help them to be better? We call it the payoff, right? So what's the habit that's been a game changer for you in order to be success you are? Reading. reading um a lot of the information that i retain comes from books and having um knowledge in whatever that is um is powerful that is also fed into my memory and being able to learn lines really quick which is so good for tape turn around and when you're in a tv show that's moving so fast productivity hack what's the thing that helps you to get things done because you're juggling 20 million things all the time oh speechify oh talk to us about that speechify well tell the people it reads your scripts to you so now I mean it takes long to get used to it having a script read to you from me because I need a physical and see the words but that is change productivity because I used to have to sit down and read a script now I can wash the dishes while I'm reading the scripts.

1:04:38Now I can cut the grass, you know what I mean? And do get things done at the same time. It's a game changer, man. Speechify. To use some more technology to do stuff. They should give me some cheers. No, no, no. Do you know what? Take the Speechify for that. Don't worry, they'll sponsor this episode there, right? They better. But actually, getting technology to find ways to automate stuff is quite good for people who are watching. So Speechify is your one. What's on your not-to-do list? i never think about the outcome so if i need to be present in the moment and i need to make sure i'm enjoying the moment so there's a lot of people that would be in the beginning of their career and i told the students at the school this and they'll come up to me and like yeah but you know when i'm making money and i'm like if i don't ever care about any of that because i didn't know about money or whatever that's why i honed my craft so much because i loved it and that's all it was about to me the payment for me was getting better and and that's what i try and encourage so i never obsess with where i need to be or you know the house i need to have or whatever you think about those things you visualize them but you don't obsess you know i mean um so yeah not to do is obsess especially in acting love the moment you're in love reading the words love performing stay present i like that a lot um what's been your greatest failure today and what have you learned from it my middle children they're not failures no don't get it twisted i failed them uh it was a tough relationship came about in a really weird way and they moved away for a long period of time.

1:06:24So I'm really deep, deep in making amends now, but I can see how that's affected them. And that's me keeping it real because I don't want to give fake answers. What did you learn from that? Well, I mean, I think I've said it already. I just learned that at one point the world revolved around me, you know? And remember I was saying to you, I thought I was God. I would be able to get back and do certain things and make things up and whatever, and it just weren't the case. So, you know, it's rectified now, and it's a lifelong amends that I'm making, you know, to a lot of people around me. But, yeah, I'd probably be, what was it, the biggest regret?

1:07:11Yeah. Cool. What's the one piece of advice that you wish you had earlier? I wish someone told me that, I was going to fail as much as I was going to fail. To be honest, it's so important that people understand that, especially in this game. I don't, I can't speak for anyone else's field, but like a good 95 % of what happens is things go wrong. Yeah. Trust me. Trust me. It's just like, trust me. It's just the reality of it. Yeah. Things go wrong. and fortunately I never gave up. But I know a lot of people do when it gets tough like that. And I would just encourage people, it's part and parcel of the game.

1:08:00You got to live for that 5%. You have to live for that 5%, even though it keeps on going wrong. You have to keep on chasing that thing and keep on having that dream. Because you know, the bottom line is, if you're not there, the opportunity, you're going to miss that. Ask Morgan Freeman. He's a great example. the guy was acting his socks off for years and years and years and years and he got to like 50 odd or whatever and it's that's when they wanted to give him the oscar and he finally became recognized if that guy had quit at 30 40 you know 45 or whatever we wouldn't have more than freeman shawshank and all these classic movies that you know he's done so much for the game and inspired so many other actors that have come after that that you wouldn't have if you didn't have him so I applaud him and I applaud the person that like through it all through all the adversity you can stay strong and still believe in yourself that's a tough that's a tough thing to do what would be the top line of your CV?

1:08:57what would be the first line of your CV? bad man wow yeah yeah straight and that's the same thing it would have been 20 years ago yeah yeah same thing same thing just means a different thing in a different way you know it's metaphorical I deliver in a different way now I like that final question it's a bonus one because of who you are, right? Would Sully have given you the money? Yeah, he would have. 100 % he would have. And Jack is the answer to your other question you keep on asking. What's the other question? It's all over. Bro, that is the biggest question. Do you know what I regret? It was me and Kane that made it that way, the ending that way, because they had the whole killing.

1:09:38They had it sorted. Yeah, we went in the edit and we was like, nah, don't tell people who did it. Cut it out. Who did it? Because we want the show to live on. Live on. Because we're never going to do it against we want the show to live on. And that is the most hated question now, bro. Who killed Sully? And people do it funny and you like, like they think they're being funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, Dushin. Dushin. Who killed Sully? I'm like, bro, please. Come on, come on. Please. The most asked question now. Amen. But yeah, Jack. I wasn't going to ask that one. That wasn't coming for me. But actually, I'm very grateful.

1:10:15you've been honest, you've been insightful and you've been very generous. We wish you nothing but continued success with the acting. But I think what I've taken away from the conversation, you've already got the biggest success. You've got Danielle, you've got your mum and you've got your family and your health. And we're glad that you're here, brother. Good luck with everything. Appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:10:43A huge thanks to Ashley for joining me on Reworking. What a conversation that was. There are so many great takeaways from what we spoke about. He talked about having self-doubt and doing it anyway. He said that some people can often feel entitled to expect great things to come to them, just fall out of the sky. But he said that you need a plan to get to where you're aiming for. I love that. And he shared some really good advice he got from actor Daniel Kaluuya. It's not about the stuff that you say yes to, is about the stuff that you say no to. I'd love to hear from you what your thoughts were on the episode and if anything stuck with you.

1:11:21The whole point of reworking is to demystify work and help you feel more successful and in control of your career. So do get in touch via social media or send us an email at reworking at bowermedia.co.uk and don't forget to sign up to the reworking newsletter for more lessons, ideas and practical takeaways from these conversations. Thanks for listening and see you next time.