Lala Books: When Is Growing Your Business the Wrong Move?

0:00Welcome to another special bonus episode of Reworking, brought to you in partnership with Tesco Mobile. Every week on the show, we hear from some of the most interesting people in business, answering real questions to help you level up your working life. I'm really proud of the community that we've built around these conversations, so I'm excited that we've partnered with Tesco Mobile for Business to take them even further. Tesco Mobile's flexible business plans support businesses as they grow. It's not just the great prices. The Help Hub is a genuinely great resource for entrepreneurs too. Thanks to Tesco Mobile for Business, we're diving even deeper in these bonus episodes, bringing business owners into the studio to talk about the highs and the lows of pursuing their passions and how they've turned things that matter most to them into successful businesses.

0:48In this month's episode, I spoke to Daniel Moylan, owner of LaLa Books. He's going to talk to us about going from being a deli to a bookstore.

1:00Thank you so much for coming along. You were a UN spokesperson for Syria, but then ended up in a deli in 2021. How did that come about? And what have you been up to? It came about because I moved to London when lockdown happened. Where from? From Lebanon. I was actually working in Lebanon at the time on Syria. And they announced that they had to close the airport. So I got one of the last couple of flights out and ended up in London with my husband. And while I was working remotely, I began to think about the long thing, my long-term plan, which I'd always wanted to do, which was open up a little coffee shop, deli, bakery kind of thing.

1:42And so I think about 18 months later, I opened up in Camberwell, South London. the most incredible small little place opened up to the public and, yeah, before you knew it, we were off and running. And then you pivoted to become a bookshop. How does that happen? Delis to books? Yeah, yeah. I think fundamentally they have a lot of things in common, actually. The reason why I opened up the deli and the coffee shop and made it a bookshop, what they have in common is that they're really ways to reach people. And that's what I really wanted to do, I think, was make. I'd spent a career, I think, trying to work on sort of big problems, humanitarian issues, and I began to feel a little bit jaded about that.

2:30But then I began to think about how I could maybe work towards improving people's everyday lives in small ways, whether that be when you come into a shop and someone gives you a nice cup of coffee, you have a little chat, you know, you scratch their dog behind the ear, that sort of thing. you know, you say hello to your neighbours. And so, you know, I think they have a lot in common, those two businesses. But one of the main reasons why I had to shut down the deli was because it had just outgrown the space. That's not a bad problem to have. Most people are like, give me that problem, let me deal with that.

3:05Yeah, I mean, we had a, the shop is so small, 30 square metres. And I was quite naive. I didn't realise it was going to be as popular as it ended up being. And, you know, weekends we had long queues down the street. I had 13 staff packed into this tiny shop and we just tried everything to make it more efficient. And I just realised I could see that it was just growing and growing and growing. And when I thought about what to do next, I think most people would, well, and I looked into this as well, I think most people would expand. like get that second shop, go to a bigger space. And the more I thought about it, the more I realised that just really wasn't true to what I wanted to achieve in the first place.

3:56So, and being in Camberwell, being in South London, being in the area, I instinctively felt that a bookshop would be welcomed by the community. And so, yeah, rather than expand, rather than get bigger, I thought a bookshop might be like a good switch up. I love it. Well, you're obviously not afraid of change and I think that's a great skill for an entrepreneur because you've got to be resilient, you've got to respond to different things. But for somebody who's listening to our conversation, who felt a bit jaded or feels a bit jaded where they are now, what would you advise them when they're thinking about what to do next because you've done it successfully?

4:34A lot of people come to me, you know, with this idea that they would like to, you know, like leave their job, open up something small, like a little shop, like what I've done. And I think my number one advice I've always said is, is it not to feel like you have to know absolutely everything. Um, I've made, I've learned a lot along the way. I think everybody learns a lot along the way. And I think that a lot of time a business can feel like it's opaque. You feel like you need to have some kind of, you know, you need to have absolute expertise sort of business before you get started. And I certainly haven't.

5:11So I think that would be my number one advice to anyone. That is very powerful because lots of people, you're right, they procrastinate so long to find this perfect scenario. Yeah. But you're just saying, just go with it. Yeah, well, the perfect scenario doesn't exist. Ever. Right? And especially when I think you've got a business and in retail, you'll open up your shop and you still have to be flexible. I think your customers will come in and they'll in a way they will tell you who you are. And so and by observing your customers or having conversations with them, I think that you have to make adjustments along the way.

5:47So that perfect scenario, even if it's the perfect scenario day one, it will change very quickly. Day two is different. Was there one day when you just knew, the moment you thought that this isn't what I thought was going to be that I need to do? Take us back to that time. You mean with the bakery? Yes. Yeah. You know, I just think that I was in a position where I was working in the shop 100 hours a week, plus doing admin at home. I hadn't seen, I barely saw my friends. I barely saw my husband, couldn't take my dog for a walk. I had you know like very little time off and I was exhausted and I was just constantly thinking about about this this issue so I don't think it was one day but um I think that it was just this period of time where I realized I couldn't I thought I could work myself if I worked harder and worked like I would be able to solve the problem and then I realized that that actually was not going to solve the problem that's a lot of people have this misconception that they don't want to work for somebody else they work for themselves be their own boss and freedom will ensue when the reality is there's more responsibility more things that you're juggling and i think it's so powerful that you've shared how much that was but you did something about it you actually took the step to say no i've got to change this was that difficult to do i i don't think i don't think it was actually i think that a lot of people sometimes become paralyzed by fear and I think that sometimes just going for it is the better answer.

7:23I knew that people would be, I knew that a lot of the local community would be upset that I would close the business. I had my staff also to look after and so I made real plans in place to look after my staff when I shut down. But I also knew that I had a really good feeling that the community would welcome a bookshop and change is good. I mean, change is better than being boring, right? I think that it's sometimes really good to mix things up. But with a plan, though? Yes. Because I think lots of people say, surprise me, and they don't like to surprise because they want to know what the outcome really is, right?

8:00So at least you went into it where you took control of the situation rather than letting the situation control you. Yeah. And I just didn't want, I think that's, I also just didn't want to fall into the mistake of just increasing my problems. You have to sort of, I think, often go back to what your, why you got into this in the first place, what your purpose was. And my purpose wasn't to keep on building and expanding, you know, and having an ever-growing like deli coffee. It was to reach people, look after my staff, you know, contribute to the community. And when I was thinking about how to do that, you know, that wouldn't have been achieved through growth.

8:43Through growth. which is lots of people would automatically gravitate i want to be bigger but you said i want to now do books that change is quite quite quite different what was the hardest thing about the change what did you have to learn or unlearn in that transitionary process i think the hardest thing was taking the financial risk actually you know i'm not i'm not a wealthy person um I probably never will be a wealthy person that doesn't drive you though does it no it doesn't um and everything that I had put into the deli had come from 10 years you know essentially living in in war zones and that was just my own savings I've never taken any investment and I I put all of the those savings into opening up the deli.

9:33And then I built that back up through a couple of successful years. And then so I had to then spend it all again to change over the bookshop. So, and that was, that's obviously very scary. And I, you know, I was absolutely scared to do that, but I had to believe in it. So I think that was one big challenge. Well, I absolutely had the goodwill of the community because they knew me and, you know, I'd been there for a while. They liked you. They liked the dog. I had to like, I had to very quickly get the credibility for a completely different business. So I think goodwill, that initial goodwill, you know, got people back in the door that one time, maybe a second time.

10:19Maybe they made a purchase to say good luck. but to get them coming back in again and again and also bringing in new customers, getting the wider industry on side, I think that I had to work really hard to get that credibility. And how do you deal with that type of pressure? Because people have watched you close something, start something else, and you're worried, are they going to think I'm going to close again? I'm going to move it. How do you deal with that pressure of external eyes on you? I'm just committed to excellence with the shop. And I think by continuously, you know, and not every day, you can't be, you know, there will be some days where you just don't deliver to the extent that you want to.

11:07But every day I'm trying to make the shop as good as it can be. And so I think that by doing that, I think that then you will bit by bit get people on board. And then you feel that people are going to be on your side. Have there always been a thing for you about excellence? Oh, yeah. Where did that come from? I think from working at a young age. I think you did as well, actually. You worked at McDonald's. I did. McDonald's too. And I think that having that early job and that training really instilled a sense in me of just trying to be really, of just delivering in a workplace. And the power of actually, and what that can do for you, I think.

11:58I think it was really important. And I've always worked. and I think like a lot of persons as well, like my father in particular, I think he worked really hard in his career. Yeah. What did he do? He worked in football, Australian football. And, you know, he started off as a professional player, transitioned to administration and that was his whole career. Yeah, so I think that that's been. I think for me, work was all about independence. Yeah. I needed to get some level of independence and part of my personality trait has always been about people pleasing because in a single parent environment i wanted to make sure mum was always happy with what we were doing because we started out in very difficult circumstances so work was bound up with getting money so i could be independent because we didn't have a lot of it but also people telling me i was doing a good job some independent verifier that i was okay that i was good yeah and i've always carried that but i wanted to do the best because i know i'm going to get positive response back community love what you're doing in terms of the books that gives you that fear and reward right yeah but there was a huge amount of risk starting something else where's the bookshop at now it's it's going so well um it is still absolutely you know it's a tiny shop um but we have i think we don't mind tiny though you can do tiny right yeah um and i think that we i think people i think honestly when people come in they we just get such positive feedback people love it they they love how it looks they love the selection we have a really amazing um cultural program um which i'm always trying to book you know like great authors for we give over the space to young creatives um we have poetry readings um i'm i managed to i really hope that i look after my staff really well so i think that it's it's yeah it's going really well And you've got a paid forward fund as well.

13:54Yeah. Talk to us about that. So that came about because we had a break-in and for some reason it got picked up by local media and people started contacting me saying that they would like to contribute to the cost of the broken window. And I was thinking about this and I was saying to people, look, you know, I've got money to cover this break-in, you know, like that's okay. hey, I don't need this, but I think what we could actually really do with is a fund where the community pays in and anybody can come in at any point and say, you know, can you knock£5 off this book or£10 off this book? And that includes tickets for our events as well.

14:36And it works incredibly well. Like the community have paid over£3 ,000 into the – And that's people coming in giving, you know, one pound, two pound, you know, people who've done a little bit better, a hundred pounds. And we get, and what's even more pleasing to me is that, and what I feel really proud of is that people feel free to use it. We get people coming in all the time saying, you know, could I use the pay it forward fund? And I think that that's like really, I think that really shows how we've created a place where a lot of the community feel comfortable. to actually, you know, say, oh, I'm a bit short this week.

15:18Would this be all right? There's so much shame around asking for help in general, right? But actually at the heart of the community you're building is honesty. It's honesty. It's like, this is where we are. This is what we do. If you need some help, fine. If you can help, also do it. And it's not showy. It's not big. It's not brash. It's just what real people really need. Yeah. And I think that it's so gratifying to see somebody just, you know, take something home with them that they love, might inspire them. You know, they might pass it on to someone else. I'm really, really proud of it. I can tell.

15:58But my question, therefore, is you created a successful business once, shut it down. You've now created another one. Are you going to shut this one down? I get asked that. I've got an exclusive for you. No, I'm kidding. We are frozen. No, we're expanding into two different shows. So what's different about this business? Because it's obviously popular, it's obviously engaging, but so is the deli. So what's different about this business compared to the other one? Food is hard. And I think that any time anyone goes into a restaurant, bakery, deli, I think what people are working so hard for tiny profit margins with enormous risk involved, and you need space.

16:42And I think that that was – and I think that one of the reasons why I had to change was down to my own naivety with opening up the business and I didn't realise that if I was going to grow that this shop was just not going to be sustainable. So I think that the bookshop, although, you know, we are packed, especially on weekends, you know, sometimes it's so busy people can't get to the shelves. You know, it is something that I think that I'm in for – I'm definitely in for the long haul. You're in, you're not moving. Exclusive, she's not going everywhere, people. Go and get your book. So I love the fact that reading and books is at the heart of your business because there's clear studies where particularly young people, young boys particularly aren't reading as much as ever.

17:25And I was always fascinated by my Narnia books or my Ninja books that would take me into this escapism world where I could dream and believe things that I couldn't ever attain, right? Why do you feel that this business should continue to grow, should be continuing to be supported by the community. What's your pitch to growing this business that you're already in now? I think that people want access to books. And, you know, over 800 public libraries have been closed in the last decade, I think. And all the time, every single day I get people come in saying that, you know, like, I used to read, but I haven't read for ages.

18:07You know, like, I find that when I'm doom scrolling, It makes me feel depressed. Yeah. Like, you know, like, but some of my friends have told me that, you know, they love, you know, that they love reading, love getting into books, you know, can you help me out? And so I think that it's obvious that it provides incredible mental health benefits to read. And at the same time, I think when you have a bookshop like ours, it's also an opportunity to meet other people. and there's a loneliness epidemic and it's caused great mental health issues. I think that as part of the high street, bookshops alongside cafes, pubs, your local dry cleaners, anywhere where you know you can go in, have a nice chat to somebody, have a nice chat to somebody that's maybe standing in the counter next to you.

18:59I think that this is really important at a time where people, I think, are feeling more alone than ever and feeling more disconnected than ever. And bookshops are such an integral part of that. I never thought about the mental health aspect of a book reading because I'm a sold, paid-up member of the book clubs. I love that the books gave me, when my mum had the money to buy me comics and books, it gave me that escapism. So I've always made sure that my children read and they can do stuff. But I never thought about it as the antidote to some of the negativity with regards to social media because you have to remove yourself and immerse yourself in a very quiet space that your mind just comes alive, right?

19:44But it's finding the books. What's your advice to people when they're hesitant in the shop and they're not sure about what to go? What do you advise? What do you read? I read a lot of fiction. I've always loved fiction. But I read really widely because also now as a bookshop owner, I have a responsibility. To know what's there. Yeah, and for when people to come in and they say, you know, that they're looking for something in this genre or for themselves or for, you know, a loved one, that I can get them something that they're going to love. Sorry, I forgot your question just then. So it's like what's your advice to people about what books that they should go for?

20:19Speak to a bookseller. You know, I know that this can sometimes feel intimidating to some people to go up and say, you know, but I can tell you that every single person who works in a bookshop, almost without exception, they really want to help you find a book that you'll love. I mean, I know that I do. I know that all the other booksellers, I know they do as well. If that feels intimidating, maybe ask a friend. Just peruse the shelves. Open it up. Read the first page. You know, books in bookshops are there to be touched, especially in my, absolutely in my shop. I want you to pick up the book.

20:54I want you to flip through it. I want you to find something that you love. So if you just want to also, you know, chill in your own space, like, you know, not have a chat to anybody, like, you know, also just take the time. Like a bookshop's a great place to spend, you know, like, you know, an hour if you want to. There's like no pressure to buy anything. It's one of the few places I think, especially in retail environment, where you can spend quite a bit of time. And we all know that you can actually walk out without buying anything. I think that's still, I think that's quite rare. Very. So, yeah.

21:26So you don't just sell books. You are a bit more than just the bookshop, right? Tell us about the other things that you offer. So we do serve excellent coffee. And that was always going to be a part of it. It gives people an excuse to hang out, gives us an opportunity to have a little chat to people. It's also, I guess from a business perspective, It gives people, you know, it keeps a constant flow of people into the shop. Yeah. And also during summer, June, July, August, because we have an amazing outdoor space, we serve drinks, you know, beer, wine, non-alcoholic options. Yep. And that has been unbelievable, way busier than what I ever would have expected.

22:13You know, we have like, it can just be like, you know, dozens and dozens of people hanging out um you know and how far do people travel to come to your bookshop it's not just the people in the area from all over from all over i mean we get you know a lot of tourists now as well um because tourism's changing right people just don't want to come and see like the big sites they also want to see like local neighborhoods see how people see how people live in this country that they're visiting and so all the time we get we get people from all across Europe, the US, Australia, that often come and say to us, like, you know, I saw this bookshop written about and so I've come to check it out.

22:52And then on weekends, of course, we also get people from all across London. Good. So local community is broadening. What's the big things that worry you? Because we hear about the successful bits about the people queuing up, lovely engagement with the community. What are the bits that still worry you as a business owner with regards to your business currently? I think the business environment is getting more challenging. for physical, you know, for the high street for physical shops. And there's a lot of talk about that. So I always want to be able to run my business in a way. I always want to run my business ethically.

23:28I always want to pay my staff above London living wage. I want to make sure that they're getting as many benefits as I can offer. I don't want to cut corners to meet rising costs. so that's something that's going to be in the back of my mind business rates are rising, rents rising, energy costs and so that's something that's always going to be there and then I think having enough time to give every single customer that comes in the attention that they deserve as we get busier I think that that's going to be always something that worries me that we'll be able to maintain that focus I'm okay with the second one bring more of that one I think you're right to highlight the issue around business rates and the rising costs of running a business are really detrimental to the entrepreneurial spirit we need in this country and we look at some of our high streets and see the closed shops having a buzzing engaging friendly environment that's about educational advancement should be something that all high streets would desperately want yeah but it's harder than ever now to start up a business um have you ever thought about doing more around your events because i think given that you're such a hub for the community actually there's a different potential business model around doing more in the event space linked to what you sell as a main product and your amazing coffee obviously but then that being something that allows you to offset some of the price rises that you don't want to have to pass on to customers because of your costs.

25:02Is that something that you've contemplated? Yeah, there's a tension there, right? Because I think one of the things that is really special about the shop is the intimacy of it. And so we have events and I work really hard to get authors who, for example, would normally do much bigger venues, 600 people, 1 ,000 people, and to have them in a shop where it's 40 people. Intimate. Yeah. I mean, that's really special. And that's something that I really am focused on. You know, often a publisher will say, I'd like to bring this author, but could you move it to a bigger venue? And I've said no to that because I think that rather than being up on a stage with lights where you can't see the audience, the author too, you know, they would like to just have like smaller conversations, more personal conversations.

25:54So I think that that's something that is in the back of my mind. but right now I don't think it's for me. Why? Because for that reason that I think that it creates community when you bring people together and I think it creates more substance in what you're doing. It enables people to, if you're in a small room, you're probably more likely to chat to the person next to you and maybe you'll go for a drink at the pub afterwards than if you're at a big, you know. And that's kind of the purpose and at the heart of what I'm trying to do. I mean, never say never. There's always going to be tension in that.

26:39But for right now, I think that I'm really happy to try and do more within the space that we have. Your curation of the right types of books also is a massive skill because you've put your equivalent of 10 ,000 hours into doing this. You know what kind of works. Would you outsource those services in terms of sell that service to other particular places? Well, I mean, I have curated a couple of libraries and things like that. That's something that I thought starting up that there might be more demand for. But, you know, so far I've done a little bit of that. So that's possible. But I think you do have to know your audience really well.

27:22I think that you have to know your community really well, your customers really well. And a lot of that comes through observation. Yes. And seeing the feed and observing the feedback as well in the shop. And I think that I've refined our product based on physically being in the shop and seeing that. So I think yes, but with qualifiers. I like that. You are incredibly protective of what you've built. I think that's really important because so many people would just jump at the next opportunity for a feeling of fear. But you're actually more afraid of losing what you've created. And that's rare to see in today's market.

28:03Wow. I'm not sure if that's all. That's given me really something to think about because I don't know if that requires me to sort of rethink things rather than. I suppose it depends what you want. so the thing that we've seen work really well is if people have a very clear objective of what success looks like for them so therefore they're not being buffeted by the waves along they've got a very clear point on the horizon they're trying to get to and the clearer that point is the less the noise around you matters so if you're happy that this turns over this amount or engages this amount of people and that's your definition of success you can look after your staff you can look after yourself fine go forth and make sure that's the way but if there is space to spread some more of what you know is real value to people because you're through in your own words the observation of what works then why wouldn't you want to give that to more people if you could find a sustainable way to do that without harming what you've created yeah so i think there's nothing wrong with being protective because it's important to you you care about it you love it it's your thing it's your purpose but at the same time you've now got a unique set of skills and understanding that could be really useful in helping create the next thing that does exactly the same thing in a neighboring postcode or a neighboring area that doesn't have the same level of authenticity and purpose-driven outcomes that you have yeah so what is next for you i have been thinking about this a lot and I was actually, you know, I think it's so hard to know what an end game looks like these days.

29:47You know, like things are changing so rapidly. Yeah. You know, who knows what, you know, with technology, AI, you know, 10 years ago we wouldn't be talking about probably a successful bookshop, we'd probably be talking about a bookshop that was, you know, struggling to stay afloat. Yeah, or find a way to put it online or something. Exactly. And now I think that, you know, we're here and so who knows what it'll look like in 10 years from now. But I do think that I have been thinking about what you suggested then about whether or not I could, you know, take what we have in Camberwell and would it add value somewhere else.

30:27If I do open another shop, it's going to be South London. I'm just. As an East Londoner, I'm not offended too much, but yeah. I'm just so committed to South London. I think that, yeah, I just want to bring more things, more culture, you know, south of the river. And just, you know, I just really believe in South London through and through. Listen, it would be good enough to get me to come across the South London. Listen, I wish you all of the best. If I can help with any of that, I'd be more than happy to. because I think it's rare to see people who are so focused laser focused on what feeling they want around their business alongside people who are just only focused on the numbers of their business yeah I think you kind of need a bit of bit of both and you've definitely got one of those and you're focusing now on growing the other so I wish you all the best of success thank you god bless you thanks for coming in great pleasure to meet you how was that people that's good isn't it big thanks to tesco mobile for partnering with the show if you're getting started on your business journey and are looking for partners who are legitimately going to have your back check out tesco mobile for business with flexible business deals that are up to 40 cheaper than the big mobile networks a welcome bonus free access to the help hub and a quick sign up that's easy as pie.

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