Rochelle Humes: Why Waiting Until You’re 100% Ready Is Holding You Back

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0:44Ask for O 'Reilly Veriscan today. O-O-O 'Reilly Auto Parts You don't know until you're in it, but actually is what it takes. Michelle, founder, entrepreneur. What's one thing that you've done before you were ready for it? Every single thing. Seriously? You need those moments to push you forward to the next thing. So there's a stat that if a woman sees 60%, she's not quite ready. But if a man sees 20%, he's jumping in. Do you buy into that? Absolutely. I think women are way more rational, where maybe men are a little bit more impulsive. And they're like, yeah, let's go. How do you know your fire?

1:19For me, your thing is the thing that comes easy to you that's hard to most. I've always and will always have that working class mentality. When I was young, I was like desperate to be a pop star. My job was a promo girl. If anyone ever stops you in the street to give you a leaflet, just take it. What's the one piece of advice that you wish you had earlier? I wish someone told me it can be really lonely. Hi, I'm Rochelle Humes and I'm reworking with Tim Campbell.

1:53Hi, it's Tim here and welcome to the new season of reworking. Coming up this season, I'll be sitting with some inspirational people to help answer the questions that really matter to you about work and help you succeed on your own terms. Maybe you've read a job description, tick 7 out of the 10 boxes and close the tab. Maybe you're waiting to feel ready before you ask for the promotion, pitch the idea or start the thing. We've been told confidence comes first. Usually, it's the other way around. You act and the confidence follows. To help me unpack that, I've invited someone who has started a game more times than most.

2:29Rochelle Humes went from pop star to handing out leaflets outside a supermarket, and from there to presenter, founder of My Little Coco, and host of Ladies Who Launch. She's also about to launch another brand from scratch. We'll get into why so many talented people hold back, whether success ever fixes self-doubt, and how to go for things before you feel ready. You'll leave with practical ways to put yourself forward without waiting for permission. Let me know what resonates in the comments. Michelle, thank you so much for coming. I can't wait for this conversation. You're at the top of the list.

3:06You're the one I wanted to speak to first because your journey has been amazing. Founder, entrepreneur, you've done so many different things in different areas. What's one thing that you might have done before you were ready for it? Every single thing. Seriously. Every single thing. And I think sometimes that's really important. And I think I was that girl that I never, I mean, a prime example of me. I remember when, this was before the group, before any of that, I remember getting a, you remember the stage newspaper? Of course, of course. And so that's obviously how you used to, kids, you used to see auditions before it was like a thing to have social media or whatever.

3:41And I remember there was this advert that came in, and I can't remember for the life of me who it was for. and I used to go on them all the time, like little sort of, not modelling jobs, but like, you know, I did one for a serial ad and I did one for fairy and I was just like an extra or doing, you know, I used to do whatever. And there was one that come in that was like a good paid one and someone had called me about it and I was like, yeah, I'll go for that. And I, but you've got to be active, you've got to be this, you've got to be that. Yeah, I'm all of those things, that's fine. Booked the job.

4:09Yeah. I needed to be able to roller skate. And you couldn't? No. and did it and, you know, tried to give it a go. I mean, they must have thought, girl, by the time I got there, I'm sure now the casting would be a little bit more vigorous. But I think that's just my mentality. I'm almost like I, and I still do that. You know, we might get offered, you know, opportunities, whether that's with retailers or however that looks for the business. And we might not be ready. And I've been in situations where we've not been ready at the back end, but I've said yes to it. And I will leave that meeting and be like, now I've got to figure it out.

4:43and I think sometimes you need those moments to push you forward to the next thing. So what are you saying to the person who may not be an Aries or who's listening now, who wants to have that impetus to just step into it, but they're afraid, they feel the fear first, what's your advice to them? I just think as humans, sometimes we can really get in our own way and actually if it's something that deep down you know you want or you're not ready or I'll do that when or I'll be happy when, sometimes when isn't, well when's not promised. right? So I think sometimes it is just acting now. And obviously, you know, by any means, I'm not going to go in tomorrow and say I want to be a chartered accountant because everyone would be in trouble.

5:22I think if you did, you'd make it happen though, right? I'd be a friendly one. I'd be a friendly one. But I think, yeah, I think, you know, if you know that, you know, maybe that would be great for me, but maybe next year, like, why not now? And sometimes you have to be 80 % of the way there and you'll alter the, you know, the rest of the 20 on the journey. So I think sometimes it is important just to, if it scares you and you've got that knot in your tummy, I'm a real believer that that's a good thing. Amen to that. So there's a lot of people who would say that women particularly don't ever step forward until they see 100 % clarity of what's next.

6:00So there's a stat that's gone around that says, if a woman sees 60 % of the things, she's not quite ready. But if a man sees 20, he's jumping in and doing the other stuff. Do you buy into that? Yeah, absolutely. I think women are way more rational. I think women are way more considered. So they're not afraid. They're more rational. I like that. That's what I think it is. I think we'd actually like really sort of almost forecast it and have a strategy and think, hang on, if I do that now, does that mean... I think we're a bit more methodical in our approach and what could go wrong where maybe men are a little bit more impulsive and they're like, yeah, let's go.

6:32And I think... And I'm maybe a bit more obnoxious. I think absolutely I can, you know. I've watched the marathon, I can run it tomorrow. And I think if we sort of nurtured that in us a little bit more, I do think we've got the upper hand because if we nurtured that impulsive side a little bit, mixed with the kind of methodical approach, I think we're winning. Would you advise that for people in your life in terms of particularly women to be more bold around what their convictions are? Yeah, absolutely. Because if you look at like, you know, I've got many male friends in business and they sort of, one thing that men are really, really good at also is calling each other and saying, oh, well, you need that?

7:15Oh, I'm going to send you Tim's number. Tim, speak to my friend. And they're actually, I think in business, they're a lot better at connecting each other and having their community, you know, like their people. Where women, I think, you know, and this is the downside of women, I think we maybe think if I give it to her, I'm going to take it off my plate. and you know there can be a little bit of that mentality i think that's quite a british way of thinking i think you're right there you're right um like you know like you think stateside and everyone's like right i remember when i first i lived there for a period of time with the girls in the group and you know if someone felt like you were good you know there was a good opportunity they'd be like right come out we're at dinner tonight you need to meet this person that doesn't happen here as much and i love that culture i love that is why i love my podcast and you know bringing women together and hosting those dinners.

8:04I think it's incredible when we act that way. We're a force to be reckoned with, you know. So take us back to, because everybody sees the glitz, the glam, the launches, the brands, the amazing stuff that you've created. The stuff that makes Instagram. Makes Instagram. Everyone loves a bit of Instagram, right? But take us back to the time when you're handing out leaflets outside of Tesco's. Oh my God, you know that. I love that you know that. Listen, I did the research. I love that. Good research. Go back to that time. how did you put yourself in a position to be where you are now what did you have to do personally to get over standing outside tesco's handing out leaflets so basically before when i was young i was like desperate to be a pop star that was just like the thing that was on my bucket list and then i you know like most kids i mean it's probably changed now kids probably want to be influencers now that there's been a big dial shift listen a couple of people in here want to be like you're baby pop stars trust me right there we go um but that was kind of what we knew right it was when those big sort of pop idol shows were on in that era and i was then there was an audition that came up on telly and i on cbvc and at the time it was to sing and support s club seven at wembley arena and i was like mum please let me go and frankie bridge who i was in s club juniors and the Saturdays with, we went to the same sort of dance club together.

9:22And we were like, we begged our mums to go and queue up and take us. And it was like the old school days of those shows being huge. And like, it would be huge. It was like queues around the block of Wembley Arena. And our poor parents, we queued all day long. But we thought we were just going for a chance to sing. And then we'd gone back and we had a couple of recalls and it went well. And we didn't really, there was no pressure attached. It was like fun days out for us. Having a good time. Yeah. And then I remember being sat down and Simon Fuller coming in the room and said we've actually decided this should be a band like how do you feel about it and I remember whispering in my mum's ear and I was like if you don't let me do this I was only 12 as well big thinking I'm like big woman if you don't let me do this I'm never going to talk to you again I also lived with her so that would be a problem and we did and then we ended up running for quite a few years and then after that ended and obviously because we can't be juniors forever we all started to look adult and that sort of dwindled away my mum was like well listen you can't she and I always sort of give her so much credit for this like you need you know she really wanted to ground me and it was really really important um you just get a job that's it you know I was sort of like I hadn't then I'd been homeschooled I didn't really get good GCSEs she was like you need to go figure out what your thing is but you're not you know so mum was quite strict oh yeah yeah in terms of that She was like, go out and I'm here and go to get the stage out and go for auditions and do this and do that.

10:48And it was really uncertain when you think about it. It finished when I was 15. So I was still really young, but also not at school. And also, you know, so I got a job at my local radio station, I think. And maybe I just turned 16. I got a job at my local radio station. And I was still really auditioning at the time. So I kind of did that to have money to be able to then I'd like get on the tube and go for an audition. um so yeah so what i did was my job was a promo girl and i would stand outside tesco's you know when you when someone's like there's a competition to win a car or and i was i say good at my job when i look back i used to sort of enter a lot of my mom's friends into the competition that's entrepreneurial and i'd be they'd give me this and then oh i must have been a little bit older than that maybe i was 16 just turned 17 because then i could drive the car i remember i'd not I'm past my driving test.

11:39I could drive the car and I would like go and pull up on my mum's drive and just sit there and like go, give me your address book. It's so bad, isn't it? And then I would go back and get some genuine ones but I was like, it's just not productive because we stood there all day. And there was a couple of us girls and we would do it together and it is, that job taught me so much but one thing that it did teach me and I always say this to everyone so I'm passing this on to you too. If anyone ever stops you in the street to give you a leaflet, just take it. Just take it. It is the most disheartening thing ever when you go, excuse me, I just want to talk to you about da-da-da-da-da, and you're really sort of amped up, and you don't know who to approach.

12:16You look and you think, they look quite warm, and they're going to entertain me. And when someone goes, no, no, no, not today. And obviously, we're all in our own worlds, aren't we? But just taking it, whether you bin it up the road, but just taking it off that person, it feels like a win. What did that teach you? I think it really I suppose just the art of A people because you see when you're in those situations you really see the worst of people like you really do and the time and also like that the idea of that elevator pitch that we talk about now that you've got 30 seconds to tell people what it is and what you're doing if you want someone to invest in you but that like getting the story out quickly knowing who to approach and I mean you know at the time it wasn't like deep I wasn't thinking I was learning anything.

13:03I was just trying to get paid so I could have some money to get on the tube to get to the next bit. And it really did work for me. And I'll always big up Time FM in Romford because they were very good. Because I was always like, guys, I can only be here till 12 today. I've got to go, you know. And they were always very, very nice. But I think for me, having known that and seen where you are now, that humility that you carry has always been there. You'll never forget those days. Never. And that drives you to make sure you can keep achieving and going forward. and I think there's lots of people who are in difficult situations, not in the ideal job, doing things that don't particularly align with where their purpose is, but it's good to see that you can step into that and know that there's another part.

13:42And I think in those moments, like you say, and I have people approach me all the time and discuss this, like, should I leave my job? Because I want to start this thing. And my advice instantly is always no. Not yet. Don't have an idea and think I'm going to leave because we've all got real life, right? Like don't ever leave yourself exposed to start this dream idea. If you, but really make it, you know, be good and be present and do your job. But see it a little bit more transactional. I always saw it as I wasn't, I was never like, oh, this isn't my dream. Of course it wasn't my dream job, you know, of course not.

14:17But I knew what I was doing it for. I was like, no, I'm doing this because I thought to then go there. but so always sort of have that relationship where you can see that actually this is the I'm having to do this as a foundation because guess what this is paying the bills and it's doing what I need to do but when I get home I'm working on this said thing and I always think put energy into say for example you've got a nine to five you get home and you say I'm going to do this for a couple of hours a night yes and I'm going to work on this every night and then I'm going to, I don't know, do half a day on a Saturday and then on a Sunday too.

14:51And then if it becomes a thing that you'll notice in such progress and that you can't put down, I think that's the moment where you go, okay, I know that I can make the jump. But I always think it's so, when you're sat here and like both of us, you know, we've not always been able to speak from a place of privilege, but we are now. I think it's really bad advice when people say, yeah, leave the job, press go, because I don't think it's actually smart and you need to make sure that you're not starting something really difficult, which it is when you're founding a business, when you're sort of really exposed to having that sort of safety net of cash.

15:25Listen, when people come to me and they say, I've got this fantastic idea, the first question I ask them, what have you done? What have you done? Because the idea is great. It's the execution. It's just an idea. It's just an idea. It doesn't mean anything. And if you can't, as you say, in the five to nine periods, after you've done the nine to five, show evidence of doing the research, building up the experience or the contacts, why should I put more in that you're willing to put in? And that's what you want, that exchange of someone. But you've been very determined because now, not only have you done it for yourself in terms of launching your own brand, you get lots of women around the table to have conversations about ladies who launch, right?

15:56So you've spoken to tons of female professionals at the top of their game, right? You included. What's the common theme or trait that you see amongst those women in terms of what makes them different and successful? Without a shadow of a doubt, tenacity. I think so. And I think also that sort of burning, passionate flame that they can't put out. And I do think everybody needs that. I think, you know, because people say to me, how do I, I've got this idea, but how do I know that's the one? And I'm sure people ask you that all the time. And I'm like, if you can't, without that flame, and we're talking like I had a really hard day yesterday.

16:36I didn't get any sleep last night. But without the passion, those days, the hard ones, are hell. You can't get through them. Because they are so, you know, they strip you of your personality. They take everything from you until you've sort of put out the fire that, you know, might be happening at that time. But how did you find your fire then? Because I think you're right. Lots of people need that impetus to get past the bar days. But how did you know my little cocoa or whatever it was, your fire? I think for me, yeah. Do you know what? I think that really came for me when I had my babies and I found that for me there was a real purpose.

17:06I really wanted to bring premium, diverse hair and skincare to the high street. I didn't want to have to go to, yeah, or somebody that lives a bit suburban to have to go to, into town to a shop where they have to, right? Take four hours to find something. And that was really became my mission. And I think the pushback that I had at first when I tried to pitch the rain, you know, strengthen that mission some more. And that was for my little Coco, that was that. But I think when people say, what is it? Like, I'm not sure I've tried and I don't know if, because for a lot of people, it's not necessarily starting their own thing.

17:41it's you know perhaps that job or that promotion that they're looking for but i think when people ask how do i know what my thing is because i quite like this and i quite like that i think for me your thing is the thing that comes easy to you that's hard to most i like that so the thing that you're like yeah you know that's the thing that you do in your stride most people are like god that's amazing yeah but for you you don't even second guess you don't think about it we all have that yeah so it's tapping into and then that's your thing and then you'll always be passionate about that because it's something that sits so nicely in the pocket alongside you that is brilliant because i all the things i used to get in trouble at school for i used to get expelled detentions i now make lots of money from right it's mental and all the things that people probably thought i was a nightmare for like the way that i'm detail obsessed the way that you know i'd get sent a picture back when i was in the group and i wouldn't approve it because i'm like that's not right and that colours off and I hate that Pantone and that's, you know, being a creative director, they're the things that that is me, of course and that's the thing that I notice in the team that nobody else does, so I think it's true, the thing that comes easy to you and the thing that your brain, you know, everyone's got it, it's just tapping into that.

18:53Lean into that. Yeah. Because there's so many people who doubt themselves because somebody else hasn't given them the label, but you're saying you should give yourself your own label. Well, we've all got that friend where we go that's their thing, they're like, oh my god, you're so good at that or whatever that bit will be. I've got a friend that's really organised and she'll always be the one that makes sure she gets us together and books the... If she started a concierge company tomorrow and she was organising people's diaries and finding the best... I know this is such a sort of putting it in layman's terms, but finding the best restaurants and, you know, putting together the best vibe, people would...

19:24She'd be booked and busy, right? Because that's her thing. Like for us, we're like, God, you're so good. And we've not stopped. We've not even thought about our meetup, but that's her thing. It just comes naturally to her. Yeah, so I just think we've all got those strengths and it's honing in on that. Did you ever doubt that you should be the leader or founder of a skincare brand? No, which is really interesting, but I think my previous experience with my little Coco now has given me that reassurance and I'm actually going into my second, you know, business with such clarity.

20:05Tell us about the second business. So Eula is my skincare brand, which is actually launching on the 30th. I can see the glow. Look at you. I get so excited. And it's just so nice to be able to actually talk about it now. You know what? It's like you keep things a secret for so long. And what's been lovely is I started off the journey with a private Instagram. And we called it Ross Brill's Brand. And no one knew what was coming. And I just was sharing like the process, like genuinely like warts and all process of building it. And I think it's amazing because people are now really invested in the brand.

20:39So essentially it's, we're launching with 12 products. Wow. Which I'm so excited, it's quite a lot for a launch, isn't it? So yes, I've essentially, I've always been toxically obsessed with skincare. And like, I suppose what I've really noticed with sort of hosting my podcast is that, But, you know, I mean, women make up, I mean, their stats have gone around at the minute, like 80 % of, you know, the household spend, etc. And I think there's new stats from the British Beauty Council. I think 38 % of that is beauty, which is really interesting. And I've always been product obsessed. But, and that space has always really interested me.

21:21I think the market is so crowded, it's so saturated. But I, again, because that's the person I am, see that as it's booming. and I see that as the opportunity. And for me, what I really have been interested in is what's going on stateside. And that is, I think here we've got a different mentality that beauty has to come with a bougie price tag. And I wanted to launch a brand that isn't a brand that competes with your facialist. There's a world that there's these scary actives in so many products. I wanted real routine-led products products that are barrier first that aren't scary if they do get in the hands of kids that's all right okay it's there's no retinol in it and it's not and and i'm sort of anti-active anyway i just think simple in skincare the better and i just really want it to bring that proposition at an affordable price point and we're retailing between eight and twelve pounds like it was it it's been a hard job to get those numbers right and to get the level of the product and the packaging and everything as it should be, marketing, et cetera.

22:26But we've done it. I'm so happy. In order to do that, I had to secure a lot of doors because you know what these MIQs are like. And obviously, you know, I always, when you're talking acronyms, there was a point where I didn't know what an MIQ was. So I always like to say minimum order quantity, just in case anyone's listening. They're like, what the hell is that? I was actually joking with a friend the other day. I'm like, before I started my business, when they started talking about 3PLs and, you know, NPD and SDS and I remember being like the only one I knew was JLS before this yeah yeah so but that shows you you had to know the stuff yeah so you're not you could have licensed your face you could have licensed your name which I have done before which you have done before and I do on other projects too correct so you've talked about this all on the podcast right so what's the big things that you've learnt from that journey that you'd advise somebody who's thinking about starting what are the key things that they should have day one that you know if I could go back and wind back time this is what I do.

23:20Trademark. I just, I mean, these are just like personal lessons. Intellectual property. Yeah. I should have said IP. IP, exactly. But it isn't until you, I always, whenever I communicate anything that's business related, I always want to be aware that it does feel like this unattainable world that you're part of this club that you're not allowed in and everyone talks a different lingo. And I remember my first meeting thinking, what is happening here? So I like to always sort of, you know, explaining layman's terms just in case because it can be a bit like intimidating but yeah i would say trademark i've learned a lot about trademarking i've uh was that with the little fight that you had to have yes yeah which i can't mention with her okay cool we can't but i'll test for a later day i can tell you i can tell you off camera um but yeah it really really and i do you know what a lot of people have learned the hard way in that and i think it was just it was a really scary time it meant that I was sort of you know I could have been in a conflict until it was resolved and if you've got your name on whether it's product or whatever it is, A you have to protect your name so we should always start there but also it could be conflicting to something else that already exists and you could be so far down the line with something and they go hello no we don't want that, that's no more so I think just be really across trademarking more than you think you need to.

24:44It's so important. The intellectual property you have, the stuff that you create in your head, you've now become what I call an alchemist. You fought it, you created it, it exists now, right? But so many people get so excited by the creation process, they forget to protect it. I think if anyone's watching, they should go down to the British Library. They've got free intellectual property office support services there. But you've now done that. And there's a lot that you can now access online. There's a lot, you know, you can, there's a lot and things, you know, it's split into different classes.

25:11So that's the other thing I would say. When you are a creative, which is, you know, the reason that I'm in business is because I'm a creative, you will always, it will always evolve. So I thought I only needed this class because of how the brand first launched. But you'll always go, hang on, we should be doing that. And that will always happen. But then you won't be protected just because you own it in one class. And that for me might be toiletries over in books or over in, you know. Apparel. accessories or however that looks. You know, cutlery, one thing flagged for us one time. You don't own it there.

25:48It's just being really sort of smart and thorough. And just, I would say, get it in every class if you can at the start because you just don't know where the journey is going to take you. This is the thing. A lot of people say that they're creative. I can't do business. But you've done both. You've forced yourself to know both sides of the coin. Yeah, but I'm way better at creative. But you know the numbers off the top of your head. You can write off stats. you understand about what's happening behind the scenes because you've been in a difficult position. You now know that you have to know every single element.

26:17So somebody who says, I'm just a creative, what's your advice why they should focus on the business as well? I think it's really being a sponge. And for me, I've had a great sort of, you know, I've had a lot of great people that I could ask or just really absorb what's going on around me. But I've always been that way. I'll always be the girl that's like really listening and taking it in and, you know, asking. asking questions and not being scared to send that message to whoever you know if you're in a meeting and you don't want to sort of expose yourself at that time grab someone else and say just really quickly you said that earlier I'll be honest I'm not understanding you people always want to help you and I think respect that too and actually from that point on they normally will constantly check in on you like how's you know because they sort of and I do that to people now if they ask me something I'd always go oh by the way this is happening at the minute you know you kind of sort of it's quite a nice relationship that you also make sure they know what they're talking about exactly that but I think be a sponge and because if this we can all start creative the important thing is you understand it enough to not let it consume you so that you can still be the good creative that you want to be it's a really hard push and pull thing that I have found quite a challenge to get right.

27:35And, you know, sometimes I'm fully in my creative zone and everything's running smooth everywhere else. But then if something happens at the other side of the business, it means that I've got to be there. But really what I'm good at is the thing that, you know, the thing that was the seed that started this whole thing. But I like that. You know that you have to invest over there to do the thing that you want, to earn the right to do the thing that you want. You have to do the thing that's slightly uncomfortable. I think everybody thinks that business is going to be easy. It really frustrates me when people say, I'm going to leave my job to start a business because I don't want a boss what madness is that it that I'm so glad I had this conversation with a friend the other day and she was like do you know what I've just had enough where I am I'm just I just I'm just going to start a business and I was like what you've just said is like you know when people say uh you know we're in a bit of a rocky place at the minute so I think maybe if I have a baby it's going to fix everything and you're like wow stop no don't now it's the same sort of thing and i'm like okay but just you know again i love that you want to start a business i will never ever discourage anyone from starting a business but let's you know i'm more harsh i discourage people i i i'm the equivalent of when you say no to people when they come to me i say don't do it don't do it because are you prepared that the numbers of people who don't make it are you prepared for the stress that you're going to on yourself and your family?

28:53And are you prepared to be quite lonely while everybody else is doing stuff? And I think I use that tactic because once you remove all the mystery around it... Or they're like, oh, we want an office. Or we want... I want a new logo. A website. But once they get past that, if they can really still want to do it after knowing that, then I know they're serious. Yes, knowing that you're probably going to be a bad friend for a while. You're probably going to be... You know, like the one that's like, sorry girls, I can't. This has happened. You know, it's all those things that I think you don't know until you're in it, but actually is what it takes.

29:25Oh, but they'll come to the launch party. It'll be all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll be there first in the queue. I know you. Do you remember me? It's always a way, right? It's so true. Don't worry. Don't let them go by. So you've said that you've been scared of the phone not ringing. Yeah, yeah. I think I've got this, I have a life coach now and I've had a life coach for a couple of years and those sort of Friday mornings where I'm like, I do, you know, they're a bit more chill for me. So I typically work from home on a Friday. So I'll, you know, get the kids into school, have her go to the gym, you know, and I promise you, they're magic for me because she really sort of helps me.

30:03I always say it's like therapy with a goal, isn't it? It's not like necessarily I'm picking anything old. It's how do we move ahead? And that's sort of my sort of motto for life. Listen, if you want to be a better singer, a better footballer, no one binks an eyelid to get a coach. So why wouldn't you have one for your life? It's such a good point. And again, it's very British of us. Like we're sort of a bit like, oh, she's in therapy at the minute. Like it's a bad thing. You go to America and they're like, oh, I can't see you today, babe. I've got therapy. You know, it's such a different sort of outlook on life.

30:31But for me, it's, and we sort of have unpacked this a little bit. I think I've always and will always have that, I call it that working class mentality where I'm like, you know, we make hay while the sun shines. So I really do, I sort of have got to a place now. And I say over the past few years where I'm way more considered with how that looks. And that has also come with privilege as well. And I've worked for that privilege, don't get me wrong. But sort of to say no to things a lot more. Like I say no way more than I say yes. And I really, because if it doesn't feel right, I always give myself the test too.

31:06So I say, if I ever get asked to do anything, I do a lot of branding work and I love it and I always will. And that's what gives me the passion for the things that I do, right? I'm always learning and I love working with brands. but my thing is I will you know the check will always be lovely of course but I'll always I now say if I am on this morning and obviously we both work on this morning and I'm interviewing myself and I can't honestly say so why have you partnered with X and I and my bum cheeks are tense I'm cringing no way wow and that's the way but the old me is like that working class mentality that's scarcity well what if they you know, someone else might not call.

31:48And I really think what doesn't, you know, the things that you say no to make way for the things that are right. But, you know, after working for years and doing a lot of that sort of scrappy stuff, like, yes, yes, I'll do that. I've now sort of, I'm doing it at a place where, you know, again, as I said, it's more of a place of privilege where I can make those decisions. But for me, I feel so, you know, I think there's like an authenticity that is really important to me. I think you can't sell your soul. You just can't. And some people do. And I get it because when you need stuff to happen. Of course.

32:22Listen, I've done deals, which I know I shouldn't have. I know that haven't really worked out and haven't served me the long term. But looking back. Yeah, looking back. I fronted some mad stuff. Listen, oh my gosh. You know, I'm not afraid to admit it. I'll share a story about a catalogue that I was in one time. Anyway, that was a long time ago, right? But essentially, I think we get life lessons to teach us what works and what doesn't work for us. And I think if Steve Jobs said it, right, he said, when you look back on lots of stuff, there's dots that have joined up to get you here. So everything has happened to us, it happened for a reason.

32:55Now we just have to share it. That's why I love what you do with the pod and also what you do with the launch conversations you have with people. It's now, it's more important than ever, I think, for us to share how we can help others. Yes. Because we've got that privilege. why can't we give it to everybody else because they can also get and you're so good at that I see life now I see everything I saw your event the other day like it's so it's I think it's so important and I think it's such a nice it feels nice too because I remember like wanting to ask people and felt a bit people can be a bit gatekeepy with certain things and you just kind of I've had a conversation the other day that like we don't especially in the creative space talk about what we get paid enough as in like between each other and again that's a real British thing where it feels a little bit crass and you know it's not like a gloating mentality but when you put that invoice in how much did you charge for that because I don't know if I'm way off it here 100 % and those conversations are really healthy and it's okay we should be listen anyway we should do more of that and we will do more of that we'll get too emotional and then no one will book us now so I think there's more collaborate for us now what is the scale and size of My Little Coco what does it look like where has it got to where do you want it to get to?

34:08Give us some numbers around where the business is. So we launched, well, we launched in 2020, three weeks before our global pandemic, which is fantastic. Great timing. Honestly. But what we did do, which is so interesting, isn't it, sometimes how the universe is like on your side. We, I was deciding whether, okay, is this going to be DTC? Because I just hadn't had Direct to customer. Yes, there you go, I hadn't had that relationship with the retailer that felt right and my goal was for it to be in Boots I wanted the whole reason was this to be on the high street people to grab it a trusted space and I'd had lots of other retail meetings I was trying to get this Boots meeting in anyway I did and I'd met with other retailers before they wanted the range they wanted the association they wanted me to change the name like something by Rochelle Humes and I was like no I think you're missing what we're doing here you're missing a point yeah so long story short they wanted the range and I suppose maybe what partnership we could have together, but not the diverse products.

35:10And I'm like, no one's going to need a curling custard. We don't. I'm like, hello. Okay. We're also not going to work together, so that's awkward. And I think one thing that I've really learned is actually staying true to the mission. Because actually, of course, I could have sold it in and had a retailer super quickly if I'd have gone, okay, cool, let's go. But that wasn't what the brand was and that wasn't my why. So it was quite a sort of long laborious process. And anyway, I got this meeting with Boots, which I was delighted about. I never forget it. But four of the team, all female, came to London, come to meet me.

35:46And it was like Dragon's Den. It was like that walking into the... The unknown. Oh, the apprentice, sorry. No, we're nice. Walking in and be... And also by this point, I've not... Now I walk into them rooms and I don't care. But I'm like literally fresh out of a girl band, And also super hormonal, not long had a baby. Like it was all, it was all gone on. And instantly they were like, I was pitching the whole thing and I'd rehearsed this pitch, Tim, let me tell you. Like you wouldn't like, wow, with a hairbrush in the mirror. And anyway, they were like, we love it. And I was like, right. And I was waiting for there to be a sort of caveat or like a bit of a, but.

36:25And they were like, great, when can you deliver? And I was like, what? They were like, okay, what are you thinking? And I was like, well, yeah, it was seven SKUs we launched. with and um they took it and that was it and we had this big launch and I do think like I said it was last minute that we got this meeting in time and then the global pandemic happened and then of course you could only go to a grocer or a pharmacy so I was so we were so excited we did this big launch the pandemic happened and then I was like oh what does that mean like I this is now terrifying but of course the pharmacy stayed open so what it meant for us is that we actually inherited this real considered customer it wasn't somebody that was just grabbing on their other shop and they was like what do I need, what do I use because when you're entering a category like baby at the time, we've seen other brands launch like Nala's now and you know Synth, but at the time I was the only new brand and they really took a chance on me boots and I would always be thankful but it was a really unsexy aisle.

37:28There was no personality in Baby. There was no sort of branding. If you look at like the skincare on the other side of the store, it was just very the brands that we've grown up with, the Johnsons the, you know. The Pale Pastel. Right. So for me to make yourself known and new you want someone to stop and have a look but really that's what the pandemic did for us. We had that customer. What was also really helpful is that Boots sat with us and forecast what our first order would be. So I wasn't so exposed placing this order and not knowing if I was going to sell it all. So they forecast it and obviously bought the stock from us.

38:06And what they didn't do is forecast enough because it then sold really, really well. And that's when I had that sort of learning curve for me where I was like, I'd only been front facing and doing the shiny stuff. And if you sell something out on any of my other contracts, that's great because I know they're going to renew me next year where this I was or my team weren't happy about it they were like logistically this is a nightmare we need and I was like oh there was no time to go you know and it was the curling custard the product that nobody told me I should do it was the the you know and that will always now be our hero it continues to be our best seller we have so we've been exclusive for boots for a long time we've got a great we give them everything exclusively anything we launch new sits with us and they get it offered it first because they just it works so well there and then we've now rolled out we're on you know amazon ocado tesco is now we at the start of the year we took on that estate which was a big lot of doors for us which changed the business again um and i think and in mid that journey we sort of launched a real sort of fast pace and a real sort of spike and then we i had a trademark incident which really meant that everyone in the business had to handle that there was a new launch that we'd put out that i couldn't give any love to that I had to then lose and there's been lots of learners on the way so we sort of you know plateaued a little then and now we're really back so I think it's it's taught me so much but it's also taught me that I started in this we launched like that and we were like that for a long time then I had that moment that every founder has where you dips a little bit and then you sort of and then you back up again so I think it's I think it's really there's been so many learnings but i feel like the business is now in the healthiest place it's been in a very long time we've got you know new mpd that drops really soon we've got again more of that for um tesca so i feel like we're really i feel like we're a bit of a well-oiled machine now and i don't and i've not i've taken i took my first summer off this summer which is i think it's a good test it's a good test to the business and guess what it was fine it worked you survived I was like a bit offended that no one knew why are you phoning me so I think yeah so now we're you know and where does that self-belief come from I think I think with with my little cocoa I think my little cocoa has given me a lot of self-belief actually I don't think I had this level of self-belief until even standing in front of the big crowds at Wembley and doing all the things no no because I was I was alongside for other women.

40:43And we all had that bit of, that moment where you're like, there'd always be flavor of the month. There is in a group, like someone's dating this person, we're in the press all the time, someone, you know. And it would always do that of who the favorite was, but you'd always think, you'd never, none of us ever thought it was us and we all needed each other. And the lovely thing about the Saturdays was none of us were bigger than the band. The band really was the focus. And then when we decided to sort of have our hiatus as it were which has now been a really long hiatus the gays are on me when are we starting back?

41:18come on drop the exclusive and then I really feel like I'm the one that goes we keep trying to meet each other for dinner and that doesn't happen because everyone's so busy that was easier then because we've all had the same schedule so I think my self-belief and this is going back to what we were saying at the start of our conversation is actually my self-belief has really come or leveled up, I would say, really leveled up when I did something out of my comfort zone. And that was my little cocoa. Everyone around me in the team, I'm no longer with the management I was with at the time because they actually wanted me to just be the face of someone else's and they wasn't really understanding.

41:58And in fairness to them, they're managing me, so they're looking after, I suppose it's like minimal risk, right? So in fairness to them, they're probably saying, this is way better for you to take a royalty for a brand over here and put your face on it. You knew what you wanted. But I knew that I wanted something bigger than that. And I wasn't quite understanding that. And to be honest, back then, Tim, what's great now is you're seeing so many sort of talented people found brands and doing that. And it wasn't really the done thing then. People didn't even really know how to work contracts between us and Manifest.

42:27You know, it was a very different time. and yeah so I think for me doing that and me going I've got a business like that has given me such a different level of self-belief that because realistically I was the only one that believed because the people you know the professionals behind me were like it's not a good idea so I think that has sort of really given me trust in everything else that I do Amen well I wish you nothing but success with it I know it's going to only grow and the new line that you're coming with Thank you

43:06you've given me so much and our audience are going to love all of the tidbits particularly like seeing themselves in position taking the risk when they might not feel able to standing on their own two feet particularly when you've had a secure position beforehand so you're given that comment but there's a new as this is the first episode in our new series there's a new format that we've got it's what we call the payoff right so this is where we take the biggest elements of our conversation and we really try to turn them into practical takeaways for our audience right so it's the value add so no pressure oh my god i'm sure i better give some value listen easy for you natural right you wake up like this so the first one is the habit that you would steal so one habit that you use that's been a game changer for you oh that's a good one i am super i'm consistent every morning and every night with offloading my brain okay so consistently and I've got 20 tabs on my head.

43:57So there you go. I need this. So Katie from my team will know because she knows probably what times that I offload. And I'm like, I never expect anyone to reply at that time. But what I do is I sit down in the morning and I think, right, today, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I do the same thing when I get in. So when I, like, before I charge my phone, I'll write down, like, okay, for, you know, what might have, what I missed that day, what do I need for tomorrow? But morning and night, I brain dump. I journal too as well. I like journaling. I know some people find that a little bit weird.

44:28I struggle, I struggle. Yeah, some people do, but I've got some good prompts. I'll send you them. And you know, sometimes it's like, some of these books come with, what am I grateful for? And it's like, and it doesn't really give you much more than that. Sometimes you just need a little bit of prompting. But I really am a bit old school with like a pen and a paper. So sometimes like, I will just take a picture of my book and send it to the team and be like, this is what it is. But just for me, morning and night brain dumping is really important. And I'm being consistent with that. Yeah, great habit.

44:56I struggle because I carry lots of stuff over and then it gets too much. So this, and this is where this habit started for me because that's exactly what I do. And I think everyone listening to this and every entrepreneur will always have every tab open. Particularly if you've got a family, that's a whole other, you know. Exactly. So I think I just have to do it. Otherwise I'm that person that will wake up in the night and I'll check my phone. I also don't, this is like I'm adding to this I now don't sleep with my phone in the room it changes your life take that advice that's a good one so next one is productivity hack make your days really clear so for me I'm really concise with my time because the more you do I think you have to be so if I'm in the office for my little cocoa that's what I'm doing that day that's the focus and if I'm on a podcast day that's the focus and I really try and make my days clear because for me, I feel like it's really hard to have routine because everything's so here, there and everywhere.

45:59But what I do is I give my brain routine on what day, you know, where things happen. So it knows what to expect. Yes, when a Monday is like a management day and we catch up with that stuff and it's like, you know, going back to inquiries or brand stuff or however that looks. Tuesday's always a little cocoa day. Wednesday's a bit of a flow. So if I need to do a shoot for something, that goes on a Wednesday. Thursdays we do pod Fridays is work from home slash do something I want to do i.e. this thank you so but no and that is literally so I would know to put you on that Friday because Wednesday was already a shoot this week and it actually gives me routine even though I don't have any so I think and this kind of habit stack doing something while you're doing something else always works I like habit stack like do you I love it and it feels like a bit of a new thing that everyone's talking about but I think we've probably always Our parents used to do it.

46:49Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they had no choice. So what is the thing that's on your not-to-do list? Do you know what? For me, my not-to-do is remove things that make me feel good when I'm in a busy period. So when I'm really busy, which at the minute I feel, you know, it's launch week, we're in that. And my default thing is to take out my gym, my trainer in the morning or take out, you know, because I'm so busy at the minute, I've not got time to go to the gym well actually that hour is the bit that keeps me most sane in the day you know what i mean like don't drop those things when you're busy you need it the most prioritize yourself yeah yeah because we often don't do that particularly when you're running or launching something you've got responsibilities you prioritize everybody else particularly the kids with partners but sometimes you need to prioritize yourself because then they get 100 % of you the minute you open your eyes you're needed right so you know and that's kind of the life of everyone so my kids need me i get to work and you know everyone's online you know everyone needs so to have that time for yourself where you're for me it's working out it could be anything right for me it's in i'd like a pilates class okay reformer yeah but a mat too okay but yeah but i do if i go it's reformer um and then i've got an app that i do you're obsessed yeah idea that is is it's the only time i don't think about anything else yeah you have to be 100 focused and they say what do they say that you're so in your body that you're out of your mind.

48:14Because I'm trying to get in there. You're trying not to do the splits and damage yourself. I'm trying to not fall through the machine and, you know, split myself in half. But yeah, for me, I think it's really important not to lose, you know, what keeps you sane when the world's sort of taken over. So very true. Your greatest failure? I say lesson. Okay, I like the switch. Because I just think we focus on that too much. but actually you're saying that because it's your greatest failure. For me, I think it goes back to the trademarking and that period of time I just felt the lesson I had is that, you know, I would change the way I do it.

48:57I mean, that goes without saying. But I think also just knowing that you don't have to. I felt I am the trademark of my little cocoa, right? So for that period of time for me, it was me. so what could have happened in the business someone could have dropped the ball and whatever whatever but the buck stops with me because I own it you're looking around and I'm like you know and for me it's just there are things that I overlooked and there were probably moments that I dropped the ball I dropped the ball on checking in that people hadn't dropped the ball if that makes sense and trusted people that I shouldn't have done and I think probably that's a lot of my greatest failures are probably that.

49:40Like, you know, trusting that people have got the right intentions when they haven't. And I think my greatest failures have come from that because actually in life, sometimes the only thing that you can control is yourself. And also your reaction to stuff, right? I can't control what someone else is going to do, but I can control how I'm going to react. And I'm always sort of like to think that I'm really composed and it's something that I always, I've always got that in the back of my head. But I think my greatest failures have been maybe not trusting that people are doing what they say they're doing and they're not.

50:17But then ultimately, because they're not, there's only one person to blame and that's me. Nobody's going to love your thing like you. True. And you get people that are really in it with you and of course, but they're never going to be awake at 3am and be worried about, oh God, we need to put this fire out in the same way that you are. Yeah, that's true. And ultimately, our egos can't be that big when we think that they should, right? But it doesn't help. It's really hard because when you've got a certain moral compass and you expect everyone else to have the same and you're very upfront and you expect everyone to sort of...

50:51Do the same. My word is my bond, right? And I think when you expect that of other people and they don't have that back, it always, it'll always sting. I think I just, no matter how sort of... Do you think it stings someone like Alan Sugar? Like I see him as the person that I'm like, surely nothing. He actually taught me the value of integrity. The thing that I, the reason what people ask, like what was it like working for him? And actually I learned two things from him. The first was surround yourself with people who are brilliant. Just don't be afraid of people who are brilliant because all too often our egos can't take people who are better.

51:28But I am constantly surrounded by people who are better, faster, more educated, no more than I do but they help me and I help them right because they can't do the bits to your point earlier that we do fill in the blanks for each other yeah absolutely 100 % but also allow people to make mistakes do what they need to do and he was always like Tim when you shake someone's hand that's all you need don't need a contract or whatever not and I see him do that in real life and I was like I really respect that but on the flip side that's so me so I'm like we're I don't know if that's like the East London in me like that's just my words my bum but but if on the flip side if I wonder how because I see and I think is this just because I'm I wonder if sometimes it's because I'm female that I feel like you know it's hard to separate separate the emotion from business and of course he's like that but if on the flip side someone wasn't like it back if he wasn't receiving the same energy he was meeting it's a very different energy you see for him yeah but do you think it affects him in the way I want because he's someone that I look at that I just think gosh I need to be more Alan Sugar like you know that he's someone that you think like God the mentality you know it feels like he would just shake everything off and it wouldn't touch him oh no he cares yeah he really cares he cares about people you don't ever not care it's correct I think I don't think you should I think business should be about caring the thing that makes great businesses great brands you get people to connect and care as much passion as you have right that's why you pour so much hours and everything into it But what he does, his additional piece of advice, we always have a great accountant and a great lawyer.

53:06So when people mess up, someone expert can come in. Preach. You understand, right? We know that. So final one, what's the one piece of advice that you wish you had earlier? I've just realised that I really digressed. This wasn't supposed to be Quickfire, was it? It's our version of Quickfire. I've like screwed the format. It's a Jamaican version of Quickfire, don't worry. The first guest to try the new format and it's like monologue. No, but I love you. What was the question? What's the piece of advice that you wish you had earlier? Oh, this is probably personal rather than like, you know, something perhaps you should do or you should know.

53:44I wish someone told me that it can be really lonely at points. Like the journey can be super, super lonely because as I, you know, alluded to before, at times nobody wears it like you. And I think for even your friendship group to understand it, which is literally why I started the podcast, by the way, because it really was born out of a self-indulgent place. Like I would go to these events and bump into women that I know that had businesses and be like, what do you do when? Because it's something that I couldn't vent really at home. And Marvel always listened and support me. Like he's like genuinely, gosh, the things he hears, I bless him.

54:26By the time things happen or launch, you must think, thank God, I can't hear about this anymore. I love that you need to see the two of you. Pillow talk is probably so boring. But, you know, like I really, it's really important, and this would be what I wish someone told me, you know, before I started. It's really important to find your people. And they don't necessarily look like your family and your friends. And of course, they're still your people. But it's really important to find a new tribe you don't forget about your old tribe they're still you know you still they're still you know in you but to have to be understood because it really is a different it's so hard to explain to people that when you've had a hard day at work it's not there's nothing nicer than to go oh my gosh i'm dealing with so and so today and they'd be like right listen i had it a few weeks ago they totally don't worry hold your nerve or you know just knowing that hey they've been on that journey they're on it or at some point they'll get there but just understanding those moments I think it can be super lonely and it's be prepared to lose people be prepared to lose people because that happens too some people don't understand the mission that you're on and that's okay it can feel you grieve it for a while and it can feel like a really strange sort of death almost but I think that personal side of it I really I think I just assume like when things go well everyone's going to be like amazing and sometimes it can people can really fall off but you'll find people the ones that stick i remember what i think it's it tyler perry that he had this quote that people are like trees okay and you'll have people that are the roots and you'll have and that they'll always be with you and it becomes really apparent but essentially what he's saying that some people are leaves and they you know they last a season some people are branches and they're there for a real period of time but they might fall off in the end but and you'll have those roots that will always be there and that's okay because I think sometimes we really grieve relationships friendships that sort of maybe change across the journey but not everyone will get it and I think I wish I knew that it can be lonely and your relationship dynamics with friends and family can change along the way but you will find the people that get it and get you I love it I love just thinking of all the people someone said test your friends when you win not when you lose right not when you lose and it's but for me i just which is horrible which is horrible but it's really and it's really kind of like a sobering idea of what do you what do you mean but and i would never ever there's relationships that i've had that i've never ever thought that we would perhaps not be in each other's and it doesn't ever have to be beefy right it doesn't have to be but just dynamics can really change and you know i think but it's just knowing that that's all right and and you know actually that's come up a lot with the people that i've spoke to and interviewed that like yeah that that is just a given but it's getting really used to the like those little learning sort of those stepping stones along the way you're like oh this is normal and i can't wait to be like the 60 year old version of me where i'm like oh whatever you know i remember talking to emma agreed when I had the trademarking thing and she was in my office and I was like in the trenches and she looked at me and she was like look at me this is what she literally grabbed my face and I was like what she was like you are gonna I deal with one of these a day and I was like what and I almost was like don't tell me that and she was like this happens and you're gonna be all right and I've had other trademark stuff since by the way and guess what I'm all right yeah so I think it's just I can't wait to be like look back and be like oh okay you know and like talking to like my kids and being like oh don't worry about that because think sometimes it's a storm in a teacup listen I don't think you have to wait you're already there you're doing that with the podcast you're doing it with our listeners Michelle it's been amazing to have you thank you thank you so much for being our first guest I'm so happy to be this is like a lovely little set up you've got going here I've got a good matcher in here this is my call out so if anyone's thinking of hanging out with him do it it's a lovely it's a lovely morning there's real liquid in there it's not fake there's real green matcha in there thank you so much thank you absolute pleasure I love you thank you so much

58:46a massive thanks to Rochelle for joining me on reworking there was so much that stayed with me from that conversation the five to nine after your nine to five finding the thing that you find easy that other people might find difficult and not sacrificing the things that make you feel good even when you're insanely busy. As always, I'd love to hear from you. The whole point of reworking is to demystify work and help you feel more successful and in control of your career. So get in touch on social or email reworking at bowermedia.co.uk. And don't forget to sign up for the reworking newsletter for more lessons, ideas and practical takeaways from these conversations.

59:23See you next time. And remember, if anyone offers you a leaflet, take it.

59:33Thank you.