Sara Davies: Become IMPOSSIBLE To Say No To and Defeat Self-Doubt

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0:39Retail sales only. Some exclusions apply. See store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders. A brilliant entrepreneur can make even the most mediocre product into a success. That entrepreneurial spirit is in most of us. You're in control of your career, nobody else. Today's guest is Sarah Davies, a businesswoman, entrepreneur and former dragon on Dragon's Den. So when somebody comes through them doors in the den, I generally know within the first two to three minutes if I want to make them an offer. From launching her first business, Crafters Companion, while still at university, to sitting on one of the biggest stages on TV, she's someone who's experienced imposter syndrome in many business situations.

1:17I never felt like I was good enough. I get into that chair and I'm overthinking it because I don't think I'm good enough to be there. In this episode, we're going to learn how to overcome that feeling of not being good enough. Everything is mindset. There's only me in control of my own destiny. Why empathy always beats entitlement, and Sara reveals the secret to winning any pitch. If you can get that right, trust me, you will be impossible to say no to.

1:47So, how are you? Well, tremendous. I got up nice, bright and early this morning, got the train down to London. I was just excited to come and meet you. I'm not going to lie. I've been sitting and... Are you excited to come to meet me or come to London? No, no. I was... Don't repeat this. I'm never that excited to come to London. I'm always excited to get the train back out. It's a little bit busy for a country bunking like me. I'm not going to lie. I want to ask you, what did your degree actually give you? Because within a year of leaving, you were a multimillionaire. that's a good way to think about it so so here's the thing for me I was the first person in my family to go to university and it really meant a lot to me mom and dad that they wanted me to go so that had always been my path but my dad and I'm almost embarrassed to say this for him right so my dad's a little bit old school and my dad had daughters and he wanted to keep going till he had a son because he he'd run his own business and then from his generation it was also so and so and sons, right?

2:47So he assumed because he had daughters that we wouldn't be interested in the business. Little did he know. Little did he realise. So, um, so when I was about 15, I started taking interest in the business and my dad got super excited. And so I decided I would go to university to learn how business was done in the 21st century. So I could come, you know, with a chip on my shoulder and put my dad in his place. That was the plan. And what was that business? So it's, do you know, ironically, it's the family business that's been going for 40 years is my mum's business. So my mum and her mum started a wallpaper and paint shop, decorating store, which they've, that was, it's been gone for 40 years this year.

3:23And my sister has just, well, she took over 10 years ago. And actually she's 10X'd it in the last 10 years. So she's 15X'd it in the last 10 years. She's been working with it. So third generation family run. But my dad, my dad was a proper Dailboy. My dad had done everything from growing mushrooms in the basement. he had an ice cream caravan because it was too expensive to buy a van so he got a caravan from the tip turned it into an ice cream caravan. Double glazing salesman my dad's literally he's probably had 40 50 businesses in his life so my dad's done all sorts my mum's business was kind of the mainstay of the family so I always thought I would just take over that family business so I went to university to learn management thinking I would then come and implement it in the family business.

4:09I did a four year degree, which one of them ones where you do a couple of years studying, you go off into the big wild, wide world of work for a year and then come back and apply what you've learned to your studies, write a dissertation on it. Well, in that year that I worked, I'll be really honest, you know, I said about being a bit of a country bumpkin. So my boyfriend was, not only did I not want to come to London because it was big and scary, but also my boyfriend was up north and I didn't want to be away from him for the year. So I organized my own placement instead of taking one of the ones that the university did.

4:40And I ended up working for this tiny little craft company in this industry I had no idea existed. I'd heard of crafting, but handmade cards in particular, I had no idea it was such a big industry. So I worked for this company in that year and I just had a head full of ideas. I was like, this is an untapped potential market. So many ideas. I want to start a business in this industry. So I started it as a side hustle in that last year when I went back to university. by the time I graduated the following summer that side hustle business was bigger than the wallpaper and paint shop that had been grown for you know 25 years at the time so I came home and I had to learn to craft to build the business so then I'd gone from my dad thinking I wouldn't be interested in the family business to that was the aspiration that I went to university to learn about to all of a sudden you know in nine months my business was bigger than the family business so I was doing this instead to now my sister runs the family business and then now me and my sister do a podcast together talking about the joys of the family business and the businesses I've invested in and worked with.

5:40So it's literally been a bit of a mix of all sorts. But to answer your question, your original one, I'm not sure how much of that degree I use in my everyday life. I think what it did do is it gave me the foundation. It gave me the confidence. I'll tell you one of the things I did do. So I'm a big cricket fan. I met my, the boyfriend I was talking about, I met him at the cricket. So I was the team scorer when I was 15. He was the opening beat. So 28 years later, it's still going well. So, um, so I started playing cricket at university and, and, and I'll be really honest, I wasn't really built for ball sports.

6:18So I don't have a natural talent for the sport, let's just say, but God loves a trier. God loves a trier. But in that last year, in my last year of university, I was president of the club. And so I ran the ladies cricket club at York University like it was a business. I'm just telling you now, the sports department at York University had never experienced anything like it. The world we ended up with Sarah. So I mean, the first thing I did, I was straight in there. I built a business plan. I went and got us some funding. I got us some sponsorship. Then I used that to pay for professional coaching.

6:49I had seven of our girls go and train as coaches, sent them out to local schools to get the community engage. So I built up a whole business of that within the year. And we had our most successful year in decades, not necessarily because of my prowess with the bat or the ball, but because of my business skills and running that as a business and getting the girls who were good, the coaching they needed. And it's those sorts of life experiences that I wouldn't have had, had I not gone to university. If somebody's watching this and they're either a parent answering a question from a child about, do I go to university or not?

7:21Or they're actually at university now thinking, what do I do with this degree? What's your advice to them about the university pathway? You know, you will get out of anything what you put in. So for me, yes, I wanted to go to university because I wanted to learn what was in those lectures. Now that is different to a lot of people. A lot of people go because they want the bit of paper that comes at the end of it. The bit of paper wasn't relevant to me because at the time the plan was to take over the family business. I didn't need to have a bit of paper to do that. So, but I wanted to learn the stuff that they were going to tell me in those lectures, which made me really diligent.

7:57I also wanted to make the most of every opportunity, and I do that in life in general, every opportunity that comes up, I want to make the most of it. So I made sure that at university, I was joining the cricket team and, you know, I went and got a job at the local pub and I wanted to make friends with people in lots of different areas and learn about different people. So I wanted to really get every bit of value out of it so i wasn't just looking at university as the education i think is the thing to take away so whether that's somebody listening to this who's at university all i would question is are you making the most of every opportunity that's in front of you are you grasping every opportunity you know with both hands and running at it or are you kind of just coasting through life thinking you'll get to the end of it someone will give you a bit of paper and then someone will give you a great job because you know what life ain't like that now that's not going to happen it's so true because the reason why mum's on there is that oh what a lovely picture she wanted me to go to university for the piece of paper because for her she didn't have the chance to go and get a piece of paper so she wanted her children because she saw the social mobility pathway let's go to university get a job etc but I think you beautifully articulate it's like the papers are part of the process but it's not the ultimate goal it's what are you going to get out of it and I didn't think I knew when I was going to university what the exchange of my time was for so I love your advice to those people about making sure you value the exchange and making sure you're clear about what you get for it so important so important so you've left university and you've started your business was it easy?

9:26nothing's ever easy if it was easy everybody would do it well dancing's easy you did that okay so maybe I made it look easy well I made the ballroom look easy let's not talk about my Latin dancing eh we'll come back to that another one the business so it wasn't easy No, it really wasn't. But I loved it. And I still do. 20 years in, I love it with every fiber of my being. And I think that is the big thing. I always say to people, whatever path you choose in life, whether it's entrepreneurialism, whether it's going to work for another business, whatever it is, you've got to love what you do. We spend far too much time in our lives working for it just to be a means to an end.

10:06Right? You've got to remember that there's that old saying of, we don't live to work, we work to live. But it's still so much a part of your life that I couldn't think of anything worse than being stuck in a job that I didn't love, that I just had to go to it because I needed the paycheck at the end of the week. When actually you could be spending your time doing something you absolutely love and generating an income from it. That's what I'm the biggest advocate of. I totally agree. There's going to be a lot of people who are listening to our conversation saying, but you're explaining exactly where I am now.

10:39I have to get up and I have to pay the bills. I've got the kids to look after. I've got a dependent relative, et cetera. How does somebody change their view on what's possible based on the fact that they have to do stuff today, but they should be planning about what's tomorrow? Yeah, so everything is mindset, right? And what you need to accept is you are where you are as a result of your own decisions, right? Right. Whenever I, you know, if ever I've had a knock in business or in life in general, I always have to look in the mirror and think, well, that's fine. And I can feel like a victim, like something's happened to me.

11:15But at the end of the day, my whole life has been a series of decisions. And where I've got to, I've got to because of the decisions I've made. There's only me in control of my own destiny. And whether that is someone who's listened to this, who's, you know, progressing through their career or thinking about starting a business or whatever it is, nobody else is going to do it for you, right? You have to be in control. It's a little bit like when people say to me, you know, they're in a job and they're expecting to kind of get a promotion or go through the ranks in a business. And I think, well, it's not your manager's job to give you a promotion.

11:49It's not your manager's job to work out your trajectory through this company. That's your job. You're in control of your career, nobody else. And I get really frustrated, you know in the business with with kids that that are so expectant they are waiting for somebody else in my business to pick them up and drive them through the career path and and it's the it's the ones who've got the bit between their teeth bit of a chip on the shoulder bit of drive won't take no for an answer really pushy hustling and i'm like yeah you're the ones that are going to go far that's your describing yourself aren't you pretty much because on that though i'm lucky like you, I've got two beautiful children.

12:29I'm so, so blessed with amazing now young adults who I'm very proud of, right? But I do have this quite struggle that they're not as hustle driven as I am because they haven't had to overcome the grip. They haven't struggled as much as you. They haven't struggled, right? Do you have that same challenge? Oh, it is the biggest thing I lose sleep over. So how do you deal with that? We've got to keep working on it every day. I can remember, little story when the kids were little. How old are they now? So they are nine and 12. God bless. And so when I were Oliver, I just had the one and he was coming up to three and he was really into trains and we took him to Thomas Land.

13:11Oh my God, it was the best day out. It was so wonderful, right? You need a mortgage to get there and back though. But anyway, you know, right? So Granddad John, my father-in-law, Simon's mum and dad, they wanted to take Oliver to Thomas Land as well to have this amazing experience. So the following summer, they took him to Thomas Land so I then booked to go in October and my husband said well you can't do that I said well why not he said well he's been to Thomas Land this year I said yeah but I didn't take him he said yep yeah but he's been and I said Simon it's Thomas Land it's going to be a couple hundred quid he said that's not the point he said when we were little if we got to do something like that that was a once a year really big deal you're making it into just like a normal oh it's the school holidays so were going to go to Thomas Land, it becomes an everyday thing and it's not special anymore.

13:58And that really hit home and he wouldn't let me take him to Thomas Land. And on one hand, I resented that I was then being denied that opportunity to do that great stuff with him. But on the other hand, I knew it was important for me to do this. And it's the same sort of thing, you know, we can, we can afford to take our kids on amazing holidays. And I took them to Japan a couple of years ago. And I remember, you know, I was, I was actually flying direct from America meeting my husband in Amsterdam, going to Japan. I couldn't do as long a holiday as I wanted because of my work commitments. So I couldn't afford to lose a couple of days at the other end because we were going to be jet-lagged.

14:35So I paid for us all to fly business on the way there. So we flew business. Well, of course, the kids thought this was amazing. You know, ice cream on demand, lie flatbeds, amazing, right? But I didn't want them to think that that was an everyday thing. So when we were coming home, we flew economy. And I'm not one of these people who I'll sit in the front, my kids have to sit in the back. So we all flew home economy. It was a long flight. It was a long flight home. And I remember the kids being, well, I can't believe it, Mammy. Well, why can we not sit up there? We have to sit here. We don't get free ice cream anymore.

15:04Our bed doesn't go flat. And I just thought, I don't want you to think I'm the one who's worked really hard. I can afford to pay for myself to fly in business class. You haven't earned that privilege yet. You can't have that. That's amazing. But it's hard. It's so hard. Because at the other hand, I want to give them everything I didn't have. And we've also worked hard for it, right? We've worked hard to be able to give them everything we've got. And it's finding that constant balance of wanting to do these amazing things and give the kids phenomenal experiences in life, but then also wanting them to have the same work ethic that we had.

15:37And it was the struggle that gave us the work ethic we've got. And our kids haven't got the struggle because we've worked hard to make sure they don't. And it's that, you know, that parody of how do we find a balance between the two? Yeah, I think we've got to give ourselves grace that, listen, we've worked hard for a reason and the benefits of our labour should be that we could go on holidays. But we also have to remember, and I think you're beautifully articulating, we're still parents. And we have a responsibility to pass on the things that we did get from our parents and not throw everything out because we can do whatever we want to.

16:08Because the implications are, they have to be active adults who are able to do the things independently of us because that's how you judge yourself as being a good parent, right? Absolutely. And I'll tell you now, running a business, managing hundreds of staff and multi-million pound budgets pales away into insignificance compared to the challenges of being a parent, doesn't it? Oh my God. I would run three businesses of the size and scale that I have. Could do that with my eyes shut and one hand tied behind my back. Being a parent is hands down the most difficult job anybody will do. Listen, give me a payment schedule every day over parenting because I can do that.

16:46I can measure it quite easily. But that one, it's so, the implications mean so much more sometimes and you can't see what the outputs are. But do you know what? That's part of the joy of being a parent, right? And we're blessed to be in that position. I suppose now you've gone on, you've built your business, but were you always accepted for the person that you wanted to be? Because I find one of the biggest challenges for me when I first started, particularly going through The Apprentice live on television, I had a massive, I would call it a chip on my shoulder of an imposter syndrome. I was going into scenarios like, why am I here?

17:19What have they got? Why am I going to be accepted? And I had to really deal with that in real time. Do you suffer from impest or syndrome in some way? Enormously. And I would like to think that I'm getting better at managing it. But in reality, I'm not. And you've got to keep working on it. It's like any skill. It doesn't come naturally. You've got to work on it. And I mean, I just, I remember when I joined the den. Okay. So. What are you really in now? So, oh, Craigie, this will be about eight years ago. So I'll have been in my, I was in my early 30s. I think I was about 32, 33 at the time when I was doing that.

17:55And I remember going down, did the interview and I got the job. And so I sat in that chair on the first day and I looked down the line and I was like, oh my God, that's Deborah Meadon. Deborah Meadon is next to me. That's like the actual Deborah Meadon. She was over there. And I'm like thinking, I'm supposed to sit here and pretend that I think I'm as good as these people are. When really I've been watching these dragons, you know, Deborah Peter, especially for 15 years and looking up to them and admiring them in business. I'd imagined so many times what it would be like to be on Dragon's Den, but I'd only ever imagined what it'd be like to walk through the lift doors and pitch to them, not sit next to them.

18:41You know, that was the bit that came as a shock. so so I'm sat there and and all I was doing was over analyzing well what's she saying and what's he saying and how's he reacted to that and what's what's that question he answered how did he make me feel how can I be more like them and I was trying to be like them because I was and this is what I always find is I would always wear whatever hat I thought I needed to wear to be in the room that I was in you know I never felt like I was good enough to just be you yeah whether it was good enough to be in dragon's den or i remember getting appointed to the board of directors for the craft and hobby association when i was 23 like i sat in that room like not being me being what i thought they needed me to be to be in there and it was the same in every walk of life and i remember simon saying to me one day there's so many different sarahs i don't know which one's the real you like you're always a different person but it's because i was never comfortable comfortable enough to be myself.

19:36And the whole Dragon's Den process changed something in me. And it wasn't being on Dragon's Den. It was then going out and speaking to other people about imposter syndrome. I remember doing a big talk for QVC one year and really talking to them and saying, here's the thing. What I learned about Dragon's Den is I didn't get to be a dragon because I decided I was good enough to be a dragon. So I went through a really very thorough interview process, you'll know what it's like being on TV, over several months. And it was the executive producer, and then it was the commissioning editor, and then it was her boss, and then it was the head of the BBC.

20:14Those are all the people who made the decision on whether I was good enough to be a dragon or not. And actually, one thing that I will say is I was true to myself in that process. So in the interview process, I didn't try to be something I wasn't. I made the active decision of I'm going to be me, because either me is good enough to be a dragon, or me is not right. I was very different to the other dragons they'd had. I remember someone giving me the feedback in the interview process. They were like, you're just a bit nice. We could do with you being a bit more dragon-y. And I remember thinking, but that's me.

20:48That's who I am. And if I switch off that niceness for this interview and I get the job, then every day that I sit in that chair, I have to be that not nice person. Whereas if they hire me being myself, then that's given me permission to be myself. Yet still, I get into that chair and I'm overthinking it because I don't think I'm good enough to be there. Like that natural imposter syndrome. And when I stopped and reflected and I thought, do you know what? I didn't make the decision on whether I was good enough to be here or not. Them executive producers, executive directors, they were the ones who made the decision on whether or not I was good enough.

21:23My job is to just sit here and be me because they've already decided I'm good enough. And if I'm not good enough, they invited me and if I'm not good enough it's on their head it's one of them that will be like oh yeah she wasn't quite right as a dragon we'll move her out after a couple of years and you know what it was the fact that I only ever expected to do two years because every person who'd sat in that seat before me had done two years and then it just cycled through and cycled through so when it got to the third year and they invited me back again I started to think oh maybe maybe I am good enough and by the time I got to six years in instead of sitting in that chair thinking am I good enough to be here, I'd sit in that chair thinking, the BBC is lucky to have me, aren't they?

22:04I'm a really good dragon. But it took going through that process. And I think it was a case of getting comfortable being in my own skin. And it's even what might feel like stupid little things. You know, if I look back at Sarah in her twenties, I used to always wear dark colours. I used to wear structured business dresses and high heels, two pair of Spanx because that's what I thought I had to do to fit in you know to be taken seriously I go to a business meeting now and I'll go in a bright turquoise leopard print dress because that's me and I just think no you invited me and either I'm good enough or I'm not good enough and if I'm not nice no skin off my my nose and I think it's getting comfortable with being yourself and understanding that whatever opportunity you've been given in life you've been given that opportunity because of who you are.

22:53If you are always authentically you, then you have permission, whatever you go into, they've hired authentic you to go and do that. Go and be yourself. Stop thinking you aren't good enough to be there because you're there on somebody else's recommendation. It's their head that's going to roll if you're not good enough, not yours. The bit that really, thank you for sharing that because the bit that really resonates when you speak about that, it's the tax of feeling out of place because all of those thought processes, all those bits of thinking or second guessing what other people thinking they are draining you they are taking so much energy you have to overcompensate because where somebody might walk into a room be really comfortable you're sitting there's like oh what's my shoes like am i going to say the right thing why have they asked me to be here and tony morrison talks about the tax of discrimination or being othered because you go in and you've thought about 20 different things just to sit at the table where somebody else who hasn't got those things to think about just thinks about what they're actually tasks to do.

23:50So when you explain that, I think that's so powerful. And I think that will connect with so many people. Yeah, we've already got so much bandwidth. That's right. We've only got, and it's not just the mental bandwidth, it's the emotional bandwidth, right? So we've only got so much. And if I think, so if I go back to the den again, if you look at me in the den, my first series is the one where I'm wearing the purple spotty dress. And if you just go back and watch a clip of me on YouTube in that first series, and then watch a clip of me in my last series where I'm wearing a bright orange 49 pounds Zara jacket I've got on right there's the difference though I felt confident enough that yeah I'm gonna wear bright orange and you know what doesn't mind that it's not a 2000 pound designer suit it doesn't matter that's who I am that's what I had in my wardrobe and I wanted to wear this time that's what I'm gonna do right and I and I think the difference is I am so much of a better dragon six years on I wasn't a better person it's just I wasn't expending all of that emotional energy that I was in the first year overthinking every word that came out of my mouth.

24:46I sat there in the last year, feeling confident in my own skin, just going for it and doing it. And I just think that Sarah now, people who spend time with me get so much more out of me because I'm not expending emotional energy trying to be something I'm not or overthinking. Am I good enough? I just, I'm in, it's the same with this podcast. I didn't, I'm not worrying about what's Tim going to think of me? What's everybody listening going to think? What should I say? What's the right answer to that question? I'm just sitting there thinking, I'm going to be myself and do you know what if I wasn't any good they'll probably cut all that out and they won't invite us back again but you didn't you invited me to come along here so I owe it to myself to just turn up and be me take the invitation for what it is right yes take the invitation for what it is don't waste the opportunity don't waste the opportunity and I think for me I see imposter syndrome as such a waste of potential because there's so many people and I've been guilty of myself where you're walking to a room and you'll think what if what but what's going to happen here but that waste the thing of missing what's in front of you.

25:44The way that I teach people, and I want to hear how you do it for your employees, because you're a boss, right? So you've got people who must come into the workforce, they see, oh my gosh, I'm going to work with Sarah and it's like, oh my gosh, the head tights. And I say to people, the thing of imposter syndrome is just lack of knowledge. If you don't know something, you should be afraid. But what you have the opportunity is to fill that fear with knowledge, and therefore it's not afraid. Once you've done three series of the show, you know how it works, you know what the camera is looking for, you know how it's editing, You don't have to worry about those things.

26:12So I encourage people to find out as much information about what's scaring them. And that gets rid of lots of the fear. But until you can do that, sometimes with experience, sometimes with research, sometimes with everything, you can only think about what you know. And sometimes that limitation can be very scary. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think just be curious all the time. Be curious. Or nosy, as my mum says. Be nosy. Yeah, whatever it is. And I think that's the difference. nobody's ever going to be frustrated with you. There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Yes. And I always try to stay, you know, I am, I, I might not always be thinking inside, but I'm like a bit of a swan.

26:53You'll get the confident exposure on the outside. But I just think I try really hard to exude that confidence because it puts people at ease and it makes people want to work with me and want to be around me. But confidence without the arrogance. and I managed to curtail that arrogance by constantly being curious and humble. And I think if we can find that balance, certainly in the workplace, if I look at the people I employ that I have the biggest amount of time and energy for, it's the ones that are that, you know, they're confident, they're excited about what they can do for me and my business.

27:28You know, they're confident in their own abilities, but they're not arrogant about it. And they want, every day is a school day. They constantly, they come to work with a growth mindset, want to keep learning and developing.

27:41You've gone from County Durham to Crafters Companion. I want to understand some of the numbers along the way because you've said, and I think it's great advice, don't go all in. Don't go all in on a whim. Build something up, test it over time, take little experiments and see how it goes. But there's other people who say, do you know what? You've only got one bridge. Burn the other one, go forward, do 100 % on one way. And I think that's a bit of a risk, right? So talk to us about, you've left university, what were the numbers like in the first year, second year, 10th year, to exit? What did that look like?

28:18So I was, I hate using the word lucky, but sometimes it's appropriate, right? Lucky's a real thing. So I was, so like I said, I was 15 when I met Simon, my husband, he was 19. So it was a bit of a scandal at the time. Oh, don't worry, my wife's the other way around. So there's five years between me and my wife. We've got so many similarities. But then when you get a little bit older, nobody cares. No one cares. And if you're in love, you're in love. Anyway, move on. But at that time, so the difference is Simon was that little bit further ahead of me in life, which meant that by the time I was going to university, he'd graduated and got a job, which meant we had a stable, secure income.

28:51So our first house, he was able to buy it and take care of the mortgage, which meant I didn't need to contribute to our family income. So I started the business as the side hustle while I was at university. and then because I didn't need to contribute to our mortgage you know I was only I think I was earning a thousand pound a month and I didn't even spend a thousand pound a month that I was because I didn't need to contribute to that mortgage and that meant that I could just run hard at Crafters Companion and we did that for the first couple of years and I remember we got to the point whereby the business was turning over about two and a half million and about 10 staff at the time and what time frame was that so that was within the first 18 months or so 18 24 months and Simon came home one day and he just said, I think I need to give up work.

29:37He says, I think, you know, if this is a really big opportunity for our family, we'd got married by this point, we just got married. And he said, I think I need to come in the business with you because what I realised is I'm really good at a load of stuff. I'm really not good at a load of other stuff. So I'm very entrepreneurial. I'll run at a hundred mile an hour, but I leave a massive trail of destruction behind me and I'm not a completed finisher. He comes along with a slate, a sweeten brush, right? So it worked really, really well. So he came along and he said, I think I've worked it out because Simon's an accountant.

30:06Always useful to marry an accountant. Very, very, just my wife, Seema. It's ridiculous. Ridiculous, anyway. Simon too. Really useful skill to marry into, let's just say. So it meant that he was, he looked at our finances and he said, I've worked out. The business is doing well enough that we can take out, I think we owed about 150 grand on our mortgage. We can take out, we can pay the mortgage off, which means that we don't have overheads. We hadn't had any kids at this point. We can both live on a thousand pound a month then, right? And then we can throw our all into the business and we haven't, you know, we've de-risked.

30:40So that was our de-risking. And I think in doing that, it meant that we just ran harder at the business. I ran faster. I left a bigger trail of destruction behind me, but now I had a man with a sweeping brush, right? So we did that and in the first few years we were kind of growing 50 60 70 percent year on year for those early years and just managing the growth and i remember we got the business to about 10 million turnover a million profit and that was kind of like seven eight years in as it was and that was a turning point for us because that's when we wanted to start and have a family we wanted to de-risk i've got a very unhealthy appetite to risk i don't see it as i guess simon's the other side So me and Simon aren't on different pages of the book.

31:25We're in different libraries. When it comes to a lot of stuff, right? So I don't see it as risk. I just see it as we work harder. But Simon's attitude was, you know, if we hadn't, if anything happens to the business, all of our personal wealth is all tied into that. And, you know, before we start a family, we should really consider how do we de-risk ourselves personally? So it was at that stage that I did a small deal and I sold 25 % of the business to a private individual which gave us a nest egg. That put money in the bank. It meant that our mortgage, by this point we moved to a bigger house, mortgage was paid off, the kind of the shackles were off, we could run harder at the business.

32:01So you've got cash in hand and a bit of freedom. Exactly. And it was interesting because the business was doing really well. So the business didn't take any cash on. It was just money off the table for us. So that was, that's kind of sorted us out. We never told anyone, other than both of our parents, nobody ever knew. And because we're not money, we're just not money oriented people and i didn't want people to know that we'd all of a sudden come into a lot of money you know exactly and we didn't we didn't start and drive different cars we didn't move to a different house so there was no need for anybody to know and i'm not really showy like that so our parents knew because basically they're both old school our two sets of parents and they're both still saving for a rainy day are you going to be okay and i'm kind of saying to them you can stop worrying about that we're now going to worry about the rainy day you just enjoy your retirement you know go and spend your money go and do the cruise that you always wanted to do buy the caravan whatever it is go and enjoy your money stop saving it just in case or to be able to pass on to us right so we got the business to that stage and having that financial freedom having that having de-risk like that meant we had a different appetite but i didn't have a different appetite to miss, but Simon.

33:14Simon caught up. So it just felt like the reins had been lifted and we ran harder at the business. So over the next couple of years, we went from 10 million turnover to 30 million turnover, literally in a couple of years. And that was just having that appetite to run harder and run faster and having a great accountant who could manage the numbers to manage the growth like that. So yeah, so that was kind of the growth story of Crafter's Companion as it was. And I I think at its peak, we were knocking on almost 40 million at about 250 staff. It's phenomenal. And you say it so easily, but that is no joke.

33:51To go from one to 10 and then to the next stage again, these are massive shifts in terms of the amount of people you're employing, the processes and systems you have to have in place. But I think, and I'd love your view, did everybody doubt that you were going to make this successful at any time in that journey? um do you know i if i reflect honestly i never had doubt that i would get there i just didn't know where there was you know so i never said oh this is this is where we've got to go to this where we've got to get to it was just a case of i just wanted to be successful i wanted to be the best at what i did and that that kept driving me and i guess um so back then my ego was a big driver of a lot of this because bigger was better.

34:36You know, the more staff I employed, the more turnover we had, you know, that bigger meant better. But I think I'm in a different place in my life now. And I realize bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. So if I look and I talked about that growth period of where we went from 10 million and making a million profit to 30 million, notice that I didn't actually quote then how much profit we were making. And it was an intentional thing because you think, wow, they're three times the size. Well, we were, we're still only making a million profit. Are you reinvesting back into the business? Reinvesting back into the business.

35:07Absolutely we were. But if I look, I think my life was no different. I was no better off financially or anything as a result of it. I'd stroked my own ego because I had a business that was three times the size. I employed a lot more people. But at the end of the day, all I'd done was bought a lot more hassle. And I say to a lot of entrepreneurs nowadays, I think there's a real, I hate the connotation around lifestyle businesses and people who, you know, run small businesses and don't necessarily have the ambition to want to grow them into something, to exit or sell it or float it on the stock exchange.

35:41They're just wanting to run a nice business that affords them a really lovely lifestyle. And I look and I think that that is the SME community that is the backbone of our economy. And it's sometimes, you know, looked down upon. You know, the businesses that get all of the media return, it's the fastest growing businesses in the UK. They are. And actually, that's not the reality. For a lot of business owners, it's just building something that gives them a great income, affords them a great life, and is sustainable. So if somebody's out there watching now, they've got zero credibility. They're thinking about starting an idea.

36:16They hear the numbers, the potential. Yes, the stress, but they like the fact that there's a rainbow, then they can get to the end of it. What's your advice to somebody to make sure that they are going through the right steps before they take that leap to start something. Yes. So if you think about me and I talked about, I was very clear to say that I was in a privileged position in that Simon had a steady job. He had, you know, he was paying our mortgage. We had a steady income, which meant that I didn't need to have that. So I could run hard at the business. Every penny that I made, I reinvested it back in the business and it funded the growth.

36:50Okay. Most people aren't in that situation when they start a business, right? They have dependents to keep and mortgage to pay. So I always say the best way, I think, to start a business is do it as a side hustle, right? Because then you're not risking the crown jewels on it, right? You've got your steady income, but you're running the side hustle on the side. And then as that builds and becomes more and more, then you can either scale down your job or at least you've got proof of concept. It terrifies the bejesus out of me when someone comes to me and they say, yeah, I've had this idea. So I'm going to quit my job.

37:26I'm going to remortgage the house. I'm going to spend that money on bringing this product to work because I think this product's awesome and I'm going to launch the business. And I think it's not about how awesome the product is. It's about your skills as an entrepreneur, as a leader, as a manager, to be able to execute the strategy that will take that awesome product and bring it to market in a profitable way that you're an unproven concept on. 100%. You know, so why go and bet the house on it, right? Whereas if you do something as a side hustle, yeah, it might take you longer to get there, but you have completely de-risked in the process.

38:00100%. And I think your situation is not too dissimilar from somebody who's working for an employer and they've got a nine to five, but five to nine, they're planning out the processes of their business. Why can't you go out and prove that one person likes it? They're going to pay you a fee for whatever product or service that you've got. And then you build on that rather than somebody who put a business plan together on a large language model, says they're going to make 10 million pound in the first week and they haven't done anything or taken any risk. That really frustrates me around people because they think it's so easy.

38:30I'm like, well, show me how easy it is then. Yeah, if it was that easy, everyone would already be doing it. 100%. But should that scare people if nobody is doing something that they're thinking about doing? No, to me, that's opportunity. That's opportunity. But it's balanced opportunity. You know, if I look at me, so my first product that I brought to market in the craft market was the Enveloper. So it was a tool for making handmade envelopes. I had a unique product. Nobody else was doing tools for making handmade envelopes. Yes, that's a gap in the market. That's an opportunity. But also, is that because there maybe wasn't that much demand for people wanting to make handmade envelopes?

39:10And I was prepared to consider that. so for me i knew i had a brilliant idea well i believed i had a brilliant idea i wanted to run hard at it but i got a quote then to tool up that product to bring it to market and it's going to be 30 grand 30 grand to take my idea make it into a tool right i don't want to risk 30 grand there's always more than one way to skin a cat so instead of spending the 30 grand on the tool on a wing and a prayer hoping it would work instead i got my dad's mate in the village who was a joiner to make them out of MDF for us, right? No minimum order quantity, no setup fees or anything.

39:46Was it as good a product as the plastic one? Absolutely not. Did I make as much money? No. The plastic ones I would have made 70, 80 % margin. The wooden ones I made a quid on every enveloper, right? But I sold 30 ,000 wooden envelopers and that is what then funded getting it made in plastic because then I had the proof of concept. So it's taken the steps in the right way. I love that because lots of people believe there is only one way to solve a particular problem. But that's the point I think about being an entrepreneur. It's not about the fact that you want to risk everything and run against the winds and go against the tide.

40:20It's actually the way that your mind perceives risk. And what you deal with is that if you find a wall, you just find another way around it. Yes. That's you, right? Yep. There are always multiple ways. And it's really hard because I think we get, as entrepreneurs, we get excited by the shiny things. We're all magpies, right? And we want to go, and then you get so excited by whatever it is, you become fixated on that one thing and the one way to get there. And then when there's a wall up, it can feel monumental, right? But that's when you've got to stop, take a deep breath, and think and plan around it, you know?

40:54And that is the skill that we have, which we must lean into. So another skill I'd like to deal with for you is, how do you assess opportunities? So what's the metrics that you go through that says, I'm going to do that or I'm not going to do that? Because you've got a myriad of different choices. You could go anywhere, do everything. You are doing everything. I can't believe how many different balls that you're juggling. But what's the checklist for you with regards to business? What do you think is important in order for you to decide yes or no? Yeah, so you've got to have a really, really clear idea on where you're trying to get to.

41:28And this is where I think a lot of businesses fall down. I was introduced to the theory of a BHAG. when I was in my twenties. And a lot of people don't know what a BHAG is. It's a big, hairy, audacious goal, right? And it should be something that is scary that you probably think you maybe is never going to achieve, but that is where you're trying to get. That's the destination, right? So you should have a really clear idea of what's my BHAG, where am I trying to get, whether it's for your business or whether it's for you personally. Okay. Then the steps to get there can change but then every opportunity you assess you are assessing is this taking me towards the b-hug right and then again you will you will have several different opportunities what you've got to do and i think it's been very self-aware i know i'm a magpie i know i love the shiny stuff right so i'm i'm a self-aware enough that i will look at the opportunities and my limiting factor in business has never been that we didn't have enough cash to pursue however many opportunities is that I didn't have the personal bandwidth.

42:29You know, there's only so much of me to go around. I've only got so much, you know. And since I've had the kids, that's become even less. I have less personal bandwidth. So it's about putting your chips on the right opportunities and putting your cash and your energy in the right places. And so I find as long as you understand where it is we're trying to get, what your personal values are, and you line up the opportunities towards that, you don't just go off running on something that looks shiny and exciting, right? and sometimes it's the really dull boring things but then I also am self-aware enough to know that well there's no point us trying on that because I'm not actually bothered putting my time and energy into that because it's not going to excite us it's got to be something that's going to really excite me that I'm going to want to work hard at but that I've I've assessed what is the commercial return to me personally or to the business of doing and I think that's one of the things I loved about watching you on the on the den is that you always led with that it's something that touched you personally.

43:25It wasn't just about the numbers or the money it was making. You connected with the individual and also the concept in a way. And I think having that luxury of choice, it was really powerful that came from you as a dragon, actually. And you've just shared that now. On the other side, if someone's pitching to you, what are the things that people should consider in a pitch to make it land perfect? You've seen a fair few of them, right? I have indeed. Yes. So I've got two bits of advice I want you to take away. And it's around empathy and the unspoken negative. Okay. So whenever I go into a pitch, I am, and whether that's, I'm pitching for a big sales contract, I'm pitching a new business idea, or if I think about this, you know, even staff coming into my office to pitch me on a pay rise, for example, right.

44:08What you should be doing in that moment is you should be thinking, right, have I got empathy with the other person in that situation? So for example, you know, somebody coming into my office to pitch for me, you know, it's really, if I'm in the middle of making layoffs and redundancies because the company, you know, the economy's challenging at the moment where a young kid comes in my office and tries to pitch me for a pay rise, I'm just thinking, are you reading the room, mate? Are you fully aware of what's going on in this business at the moment? It's not about you. It's about everything, right?

44:39So I think having empathy and understanding the wider situation. But then also always think about the unspoken negative. What is that? Right. So I learned this in shopping TV. So whenever I'm on QVC and I'm selling my wares, what you have to think about is, I'm telling you all the great reasons why you would want to buy this product. But you're probably thinking of the one reason why you wouldn't buy it. Now, I'm not going to call that out because that would be a negative. And I'm full of positivity in my pitch, right? But what I need to do is I need to be aware of what your unspoken negative might be so that I cover it off in my pitch instead of just focusing.

45:16So, and where I learned this, so we sell pens at Trafter's Companion. We sell really awesome colouring pens, right? A fair few, yes. Like grown-up felted pens are the way I think about it, right? And my grown-up felted pens are more expensive than kids' felted pens, but not as expensive as artist ones, right? But I know that I make them at the same quality as the artist ones. And I remember going into a pitch, trying to sell them into Michael's, 1 ,200 stores in America. I was pitching for a million-dollar contract, right? selling my pens in and i know fine well that buyer is looking at my pens and thinking well they look great they perform really well but why are hers half the price of the ones that we're selling yeah what's wrong with them yes there's something wrong with them right but she's not going to say to me that she's not because she's a buyer she's going to be nicey-nice and she's listened to me wax and lyrical about why they're great but because i'm aware of what her unspoken negative is, I can come up and say, and you're probably thinking, why are these half the price?

46:18Is it because they're not as good? Let me explain to you why that is. So I've already worked out what her objections are to saying yes, and I'm covering them off. And I operate that in my everyday life. You know, whether that's a business pitch I'm doing, whether I'm going for a contract, whatever it is, I think about all the reasons why the other person that I'm pitching to might say no, but they won't want to say it to my face. And I make sure I cover those in the argument. Love that. I need to employ that in my household. Unspoken negative. Pair that with empathy and you'll be unstoppable. So beautiful thing because empathy rather than entitlement and the unspoken negative could really impact somebody who's making a life decision about a career pitch, a business pitch, or even a relationship pitch.

47:03They all relevant to that. If you can get that right, trust me, you will be impossible to say no to. that's one of the things people always say to me is it's a blessing and a curse for me i am very very difficult to say no to very difficult i i could what was it my sister say she's like you could sell a comb to a bald man right i could sell you a trick and but but but it is because i could because i'm so full of positivity and energy and bring people along on that journey but it's because i mix that with my covering of the unspoken negative and you don't even realise I'm doing it. That's always been one of my life hacks that I never, I don't think I've ever spoken about that before, actually, in public.

47:43Listen, I felt impacted by that. I've taken it away. Hopefully it works with Jasmine, but that is really good value for our listeners because I think people think this happens automatically. It's just easy. But there's so much years of knowledge. It's a skill, isn't it? Like any skill, you've got to work on it. And you can learn it. Yeah. This is the important thing. Everything's learnable. So when somebody comes through them doors in the den, I generally know within the first two to three minutes if I want to make them an offer. Wow. Based on? Them. It's not about the product. It's not about the market.

48:19It's not about the opportunity. It's about them. Okay. Because what I find is a brilliant entrepreneur can make even the most mediocre product into a success. I agree. You could have the best product in the world. If they don't have the skills, the passion, vision, drive as an entrepreneur, they're not going to get there. when people come in the den, I look at them and I think, do you have what it takes? Because this product, whatever it is, product or service that you're pitching to me, this is just the start, right? You are going to be going on a journey as an entrepreneur where this is going to lead to the next thing to the next thing.

48:48Do you have what it takes to make that a success? And will I enjoy working with you? Because at the end of the day, my money is not what's in short supply, my bandwidth is. So if I'm going to put my time and energy into someone, you know, it's easy for me to put my money into a business it's not easy for me to put my time and energy for them to get a little bit of a space in my brain to just be on i mean i almost have 50 tabs open in my brain at any one time are you neurodiverse do you know i'm desperate to know so um i'm going through i'm going to start my assessments really soon because i've made friends with the neurodiversity assessment they've been assessing the kids and he keeps looking at me and going that'll be your adhd That'll be your ADHD.

49:30So I've said to him, I'm coming for the test. I'm coming for the test. Because I want to know, I want the bit of paper. And what I've realised is, that's entrepreneurialism, isn't it? 100%. We just have 50 tabs open in our brain at one point. And that's okay. Yeah, it's what makes us function the way that we do. 100%. And that magpie piece means that we'll run faster than anybody else. Anyone else? So honestly, the neurodiversity can of worms is what I'm desperate to tear open and have a good look inside. Will you come back and tell us what the out point is? I absolutely will come back and tell you what the out point is.

49:59I'm very intrigued because you said several things. The magpie, the multiple tabs, the endless energy, the risk aversion that doesn't impact you versus other people. Those are very telling signs. Very telling signs. So do you know what was fascinating? So when I was doing the, I did the test with my youngest son and I remember whatever tests he'd done, it was the pattern association tests that they'd done in that. And the doctor spoke to me afterwards and he said, I've never seen a kid. He's only nine. I've never seen a kid this young score quite like that on that test. He said, and that is the, that one test that he's done, that is the predictor of entrepreneurialism.

50:38And so, and it made me think, oh, I didn't realise that that was something you could test for, which is what made me want to do the test as well. I was like, oh. Yeah, that's my boy. I want to see if I score as highly as he did. So I sat my little boy down and I said, you do know, son, you've got all of the stuff in your brain that could make you a great entrepreneur, like what mammy is. so you could be an entrepreneur when you're older. He said, I don't want to be an entrepreneur, mammy. I was like, all right. No, I'm going to be a professional footballer. And so I said to him, because I believe in managing expectations, I said, listen, son, I'm not being funny, but you're not even the best footballer in your team.

51:16I've just told you, you've got one of the high scores and predictor of entrepreneurialism and you could be brilliant at this. You're not even the best footballer in your team, let alone in the league, let alone in the country, right? And he looked at us and he went, yeah but no one's going to work as hard as I am I just thought he's my kid that's my boy and it's that drive and passion with that pattern seeking ability I think is what makes a phenomenal entrepreneur Wow, I can't wait to see your result but also the impact that your children are going to have on the world because you've got that environment which is conducive for growth and development which you're going to back and have the ability to do so And I hope lots of parents are watching that because the realism that you just shared there is sometimes really hard for parents to do.

52:03They'll say, Jenny, you can do anything you want. Well, actually, the stats aren't telling you the facts, right? Let's be honest with them. But it's not debilitating to tell people the truth, I think. I think you should do that. That's your responsibility. What I want to ask you now is if you could go back and tell young Sarah anything, what would be the lessons that you'd want to share with her? I'd tell her that she was enough. because that's the one thing, and it's back to the imposter syndrome piece. I never, ever felt like I was good enough to be in whatever room. I was always trying to be somebody else to justify being in the room that I was in.

52:40Where did that come from? I think that's just the natural, and I think women especially seem to suffer with it. It's just that natural imposter syndrome. Whereas I look now as a woman in my early 40s, I absolutely think I'm enough. You don't look like early 40s. look at you look at you go on I'll hang out with you more often but you know instead of instead of getting the invite to come on your podcast and thinking am I good enough to go on that podcast have I got enough interesting stories to talk about will people find me interesting instead of overthinking all of that I just thought what a lovely opportunity I'm really grateful I've been given that opportunity I'm going to come down and I'm going to take it with both hands right because I'm enough and I just wish young Sarah in her late teenage years or her early 20s knew that and she didn't wear the two pair of spanks and the you know business dresses and the hires and go and be somebody she wasn't to try and please everybody else I wanted to be the person that she was having said that at least I discovered this in my 30s yes I know a lot of people in their 60s who still don't think they're enough and still suffer with the imposter syndrome so actually I look back and I think yes I probably had 10-15 years of my career that that I could have had so much more if I had that self-belief and believed I was enough but hey I've got another 30 40 50 years of my career to keep making use of it.

54:03Love it so in your business now you recruit lots of young people. I do. And I'm very excited to discuss this because I've spent a long time over 20 years advocating different ways into work and both we I know we're both very good advocates of T levels and different pathways into work. The statistics at the moment are very depressing. We've got over a million people, young people, who are classed as NEATs, not in employment, education or training. And for a 16 to 25-year-old, I think that's really depressing to think there's no jobs or opportunities out there for them. What's your view on how we tackle this NEATs challenge that we have in our society?

54:36Yeah, so I am a big believer in that entrepreneurial spirit is in most of us. Not everybody, but there is some of it in all of us if it's nurtured. And I just think, you know, if there isn't the jobs out there for our young people to be able to take, then our young people need to go and make their own jobs. They need to create their own opportunities. The thing is, with the technological advancements the way they are, with AI being the way it is, you know, it's leveled the playing field. You don't need to have, I mean, I'm living proof of the fact that you didn't need to have money to start a business.

55:13I started a business with a couple of grander savings right so you don't need to have that you need to have passion you need to have vision you need to have drive and if you've got that then we need to make sure we are I say educating but I don't necessarily mean educating in terms of university degree or whatever I just mean giving our young people the skills to have and the confidence to know they could go out and start their own business and pursue their own opportunities. There's a, there's a lad in our village, his eldest son, also very neurodiverse, so really struggles at school, right? He's been labeled the naughty kid at school.

55:48And so he's really struggling, right? So his dad's helped him set up a little business and he's done, he's been buying in those photo frames and little Lego figures and making the 3D frames and personalizing them. And he goes around all the craft fairs and runs his own stall and takes orders for these, set up a little Facebook marketplace selling as well. The kid's making a fortune. He's only 14, right? He's not school, whatever, not interested in school at all. And he's learned all the life skills he needs and how to build that business. And I look at that kid and I think you'll do all right in life, son.

56:23You know, you really will. And it's not about the education that you've had. It's the education you've had from your dad creating that environment to help support. And his dad's not a business person. So his dad's had to learn business as well to be able to support his son and i look at them and i think just how wonderful this is there's nothing stopping any young person today being able to go out you know just because they can't find a job doesn't mean they can't go and make their own job we just need to show them how give them the confidence and give them the skills to be able to do that so who's going to do those three things because the old way of looking at it was that the education process should give them those three things right but i think we're both well i know i am i'm very disillusioned with what education is giving our young people because the skills they're learning in school are not always the best to prepare them for the environments they're going into my son's currently doing his GCSEs at this moment so every parent is going through those exam stuff I love you I'm praying for you we'll get through right but essentially I'm in a in a horrible position where I'm encouraging to do the best on he can on his exams because I know that will help him accelerate him in one pathway but I also know nobody I've ever recruited I've ever really cared about their GCSE certificate because I've asked, like you do when someone comes in the pitch, can I work with that person?

57:36Are they going to give me everything? Have they got the right energy that is going to be conducive to us winning together, right? So how do we marry that together? Because there's lots of young people who are listening to this or parents who are saying, where do I get this spark to come from if it's not coming from an education system? We need to go and do that. Who do we? Me and you. Okay. Me and you. What are we doing? I don't know. We need to sit down. We need to put a plan together. that we need to identify a BHAG and then we need to write a strategy for how we're going to do that. We're back at the cricket club, aren't we?

58:05We're back at the cricket club. It's exactly that. Yeah, and do you know, joking aside, I just think, and it really sits heavy on my shoulders being a role model, especially for the young girls. And it'll be exactly the same for you. You know, we're in the privileged position that we've been on TV, which means young people walk down the street and recognise who we are and they look up to us and they are looking at us for the answers. that you know they need us to show them how to go about doing this that it's not just privileged people that that get to go and build businesses and do this that anybody can do this and i just think it's it's down to us to try and whether it's influencing government whether it's influencing the education system but we need to work on how do we get those young people the skills that they need and then work on their self-belief and confidence to get there listen i i'm going to be sending you lots of plans because i i truly believe that is the actual differentiator of what's going to make our society good i think with the fracture that we see in our society it's not about race or religion it's actually about class and the people feel that they haven't got access to the things that we take for granted right not in a negative way just because we've worked hard but i think if we give people the pathway to get those things they'll actually be inspired to try different things go and actually achieve what they can but at the moment there's a disconnect between what we're telling them to study in school and what they see as the outcome and they can they're calling us out on this social contract which i think is now well and truly broken it's the parents we need to convince it is the parents and i think it's that you know you said you went to university because that's what your mom wanted you to do you know i i would hope that I was influential enough on my kids that I feel like I know better because I'm further on in my life.

59:57I've got more education, more knowledge, more understanding than they have. So I feel better equipped to help them make life decisions. Right. Brilliant. So to me, it's the parents we need to be educating, not necessarily just the young people so that parents start and see actually encouraging their kids to start their own business is a really good feasible career opportunity you know it's not because it you know if if the kids are in at home and they're just getting told no you've you've got to go out and you've got to get a job and there's no other way well if the jobs aren't there for them to get there's no point telling the kids this is it not so we need the parents to really be to be to be showing their kids that this is another opportunity like the guy i told you you know he's accepted you know what my kid's probably going to struggle at school He hasn't, you know, he hasn't got a natural aptitude for it.

1:00:45So how can I help him to build a future for himself? I see, we can't just sign off and say, oh, it's not going to work. We have to come up with solutions. And I think that entrepreneurial mindset needs to be displayed more by government. And I'm quite frustrated that it's not. But then rather than moaning about it, we're going to do something about it. And I'm definitely on that crusade. But this is not about my crusade because the soapbox is crumbling. We can crusade it together though. We can do it. But I think, so I'm of the viewpoint that opportunities are everywhere, but they're not always equally shared with everybody, right?

1:01:22So if you were in the position where you could advise government, decision makers, business leaders around what we should be doing, what would you be asking them to do? I think it is, first of all, we need to build this whole entrepreneurialism into education at secondary school level. Not at university, because a lot of these kids aren't going to go to university. Every kid is going through secondary school. To me, that is as important. They should be learning about, entrepreneurialism should be a GCSE in the same way that geography and physics is. Right? It really should be. And we should be teaching them the core skills, both to use in their own life as well as to use in potentially setting up a business.

1:02:04But it's not just that. we then need to be changing societal beliefs so that it's not perceived. You know, I remember when I graduated, I did a management degree and there were 30 of us on our course. And at the end of the course, they asked how many of us were interested in potentially running our own business. There was only three of us. Wow. Three out of 30 doing a management course, right? A few years later, I went back to the same university and they had me go and do a careers talk. And there was about 300 kids now doing this course at university. And I asked a show of hands who was interested in running their own business and about a third of the room put their hand up.

1:02:41And I was like, that was the difference in five or six years. We've got to make sure that that continues. So I'm very interested in this whole conversation around social media being taken away from young people. Because actually part of the future is going to be around technology and social media is part of that, right? But at the same time, we have to protect our young people from seeing stuff that they shouldn't be seeing and I know with my 16 year old son I'm very worried about the stuff he gets access to right? So what's your view on the social media ban for young people? Oh it's a great way of wanting to can of worms here I'm on one.

1:03:15So I think it's probably worth pointing out that so my kids are 9 and 12 my son's in year 7 and he's one of only three kids in his whole year who doesn't have a mobile phone. We have a mobile phone so that if he has to go it's like a family mobile phone so if he has to go, he went away with the school overnight and all the kids really needed a phone to be able to communicate. And the only way he was comfortable going away was to have that phone. So we have a family phone, but that's a phone that has no internet on it, no social media, you know, he can WhatsApp us and he can see live location where I'm at.

1:03:47That's it. Okay. And you know, I, there is so much, I mean, I use social media in my everyday life and I get so much good value from social media, But that's because I am, I'd like to think I'm an intelligent person who understands the risks as well as the benefit. And I can weigh up and I'm sensible enough to see what content I'm being served and understand the motivation behind that content and be able to make informed decisions of how to build that in my life. Right. My kids at nine and 12 year old have not got developed enough brains to be able to make that distinction. so to me i would be all in favor of letting those kids have social media if it was controlled right but it's not controlled by the government it's not controlled by doctors it's not controlled by people who have our kids well-being at heart yes it is controlled by people who want to make money and commercialize our kids who therefore don't have their best interests at heart that want to incentivize them to end up down rabbit holes and you know spending hours and hours and it's i so i just think with the status quo with how it is at the moment it is such a dangerous thing to let our kids a have social media and b have smartphones yeah you know they they aren't developed enough in their brains i mean i look at me sometimes i get frustrated i'll sit on my phone and next thing i know i blink in half an hour it's gone yeah and i and i'm frustrated at myself but I'm aware of it and I'm still struggling to physically put the phone down.

1:05:19You have to talk to yourself to like let it go. I have to push myself and then I just think I've just wasted half an hour of my life, right? Our kids can't do that and it's not half an hour of their lives. It can be three or four hours. You know, you hear how many hours some of these kids are spending on there and I just think what is the price they're paying? What are they missing out on? You know, I followed Jonathan Hayden on Instagram and I find his content fascinating. And so I just think it's such an important topic. Listen, it's been absolutely amazing to have the conversation. You've shared so much.

1:05:48I'm going to be much more empathetic. I'm going to make sure I think of the unspoken negatives. But more importantly, I'm going to walk into opportunities not having a fear because they invited me. They invited you. They invited you. And do you know what? If you're not good enough, that's their loss, not yours, isn't it? Listen, Sarah, it's been amazing. Thank you so much for your time. What an incredible conversation with Sarah. It was amazing what she shared. but here are the three things that I want you to take away from our conversation today. Always lead with empathy. The world doesn't owe you anything, but if you go into situations with empathy rather than entitlement, you're likely to get a better outcome.

1:06:26Consider the unspoken negative. When pitching an idea, selling something or asking for a pay rise, think about the unspoken negative. The reason why the person that you're talking to might say no and make sure you mitigate gate for that in your pitch. And finally, if you're feeling imposter syndrome, remember this, you were invited into the room, so you might as well own it. Listen, if something resonated with you in this episode, please share it with someone that you know who wants to rework their career or lifestyle. And don't forget to like and subscribe for more great conversations just like this one.

1:06:59See you next time.

1:07:08is