Will Storr: How To Get Ahead At Work, The Workplace Games Nobody Talks About

0:00Status is utterly crucial to the world of work. I mean, the world of work is a big status game. That's what it is. You're an award-winning British author, investigative journalist, but you're known for two key aspects around storytelling and status. You think of it as the need to get money and get rich, but it's not that. At its core, it's about adding value. There was one study where people were offered a pay rise or higher status job title and 70 % opted for the higher status job title. So when we do something that is of value to other people, automatically other people respond to us by offering a status.

0:31They go, God, that was good. They give you respect. How does that play out in the world of work? That's the trap people can fall into, I suppose. I've achieved this, that and the other in my past and that means that you should respect me. That is not how it works. How do you think people should be using storytelling to increase their value and their enjoyment at work? It's really important that we have an optimistic kind of positive story about ourselves and our work. when you see yourself as a victim, what that does is it absolves you of blame for doing stuff wrong. But what it also does is it takes away your agency.

0:58So do you think that status and happiness are not compatible? My name is Will Storr and today I'm reworking with Tim Campbell. How do you get ahead at work and win the workplace games that no one talks about?

1:18This is Reworking and I'm Tim Campbell, helping you answer the questions that really matter to you about work and finding the ideas, advice and experiences that mean you can succeed on your own terms. Now, I can't lie, I'm excited to share today's episode with you. The guy got me feeling like he'd explained part of the matrix to me and I came out of it understanding the way that we can recognise and leverage status to get where we want to be at work and even beyond that in our personal and everyday lives. This episode is all about how you can get ahead by learning to play and win the games that we all know are there, but nobody ever talks about.

1:54We're speaking with Will Storr, an award-winning British author and investigative journalist who's an expert in two things, status and storytelling. Maybe you've not thought about either in your career, but Will's here to explain why they make up the fundamentals of how we interact with everyone around us. Honestly, this conversation is like a cheat code. Don't miss it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the chat. So if anything resonates with you, let me know in the comments.

2:24Will, thank you so much for being here. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you doing, Tim? I'm alive and well, right? So this is the great point. But lots of the people watching know you for a number of different things. You're an award-winning British author, investigative journalist, but you're known for two key aspects around storytelling and status. It's good that we give it a S. Deliteration helps me, if you remember, right? So it's good. but in terms of the thing that our guests really want to talk to our audience about is about how does that play out in the world of work so please explain the idea around status and how that can be relevant for people in the world of work well status is utterly crucial to the world of work I mean the world of work is a big status game that's what it is and to understand why it's important you've kind of got to understand the role it plays in human life and human evolution so we humans are a species of ape Like we're not like an ape or evolved from the apes.

3:15We are an ape. But obviously we're a kind of weird kind of, we're not like the other apes. We're pretty much, we're a bit cleverer. We're a bit cleverer, exactly. We're advanced. We've taken over the world. And less hairy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the reason for that is that we've mastered the art of cooperation. So humans are kind of part ape, part bee. We know we kind of are apes, but we act more like bees. We work together and we solve the problems of survival, not as individuals, but as members of highly cooperative groups. so that's that's how we've managed to kind of become so successful we we work on our own we work in groups too now in order to get us to work in those um cooperative groups and um solve problems in those cooperative groups evolution wants us to do two things and so all humans universally have two really really powerful um immensely important drives and the first drive is for connection.

4:06So nature wants us to be accepted into groups, whether that's a partnership, a marriage, a friendship group, or a work group, an organization, a group of colleagues, a tribe, if you want to think of it that way. So that's the first thing. We want to feel belonging and accepted. And so we all want that. And that's universal. And we all dread the opposite of that, which is ostracization, social rejection. It's a horrible feeling. We've all been through it. and it's horrible because that's what nature wants us to be connected completely opposite yeah yeah so so that's what people kind of generally know about human beings we like being loved we like to love and be loved all you need is love said the beetles yeah but they were wrong because it's not just all about love we also want something else so nature wants us to be part of these cooperative groups but we can't just be part of them we've got to add value to them we've got to we've got to pull our way we've got to offer them something so the second thing all humans want is to have that sense of being valued, like that sense of I'm valuable to you, I'm valuable to the group, to the organisation.

5:07And so that's what status is. So when we do something that is of value to other people, automatically other people respond to us by offering a status. They go, God, that was good. They give you respect. And so we need that as human beings. And so that's the lifeblood of all organisations. You join an organisation at the bottom. You want to win the respect of your peers, your bosses, the people on the same desk as you. And that's life. That's work. That's what kind of powers you on through those dark times. So we've got the idea of the concept. Yeah. It's based on the age old thing that we need each other in order.

5:43And the synergy of our relationships is really good. But obviously people find it quite difficult to navigate that kind of dynamic. Usually when they're at different levels, if they've got, they don't feel they have power in those scenarios or they, They can't direct the outcomes that they sometimes want. So how do people, one, truly understand the power dynamics in the workplace and how do they leverage those? Well, I think the first thing is to understand that basic concept of what status is. So we think of status sometimes as the need for power. We think of it as the need to get money and get rich.

6:22But it's not that. At its core, it's about adding value. It's about offering value. And I think understanding that is really important, just having that change of focus away from what can I get. Yeah, to what am I offering? Yeah. And that's quite a significant mind shift. Because when you're offering value to the organisation, when you're offering value to your colleagues, you're automatically going to get the rewards. So I think that's a really important kind of basic principle to understand. The other thing that's really sort of very tricky in human groups is that there is a big taboo against going for status.

7:01So nobody wants to admit, I'm interested in status, even though it's true. You've just got to look around the world. Everybody is. Everybody wants to be valued. Nobody wants to be humiliated, disrespected. But no one wants to admit it. No one wants to admit it. And that's because, evolutionarily speaking, status is a resource, a bit like food. Nobody wants to be seen as greedy, grabbing all the food. Nobody wants to be seen as greedy for status either. And also status is kind of relative. So the more status one person has, the more status another person has. So if somebody sort of walks into a room demanding status, that's a red flag to people.

7:32People have these instincts to want to pull them down. And when anthropologists even look at hunter-gatherer groups, these very sort of pre-modern groups, universally pretty much they have these things where they pull people down. There's one Inuit group from northern Canada where they're recorded. If a guy comes in playing the big man after a hunt, they'll stand in a circle around this guy and sing what they call a song of derision in his face to pull him down. So that's one of the important things about navigating it. It's like one of the core principles about status in human groups is status is offered by other people.

8:08You don't demand it. And the moment you demand it, you're going to get backs up and people are going to want to be motivated to pull you down. So you've got to not admit you want it, but still you're still pursuing it. Yeah. So how do you do it on a practical level? Because somebody who's just starting work to come out of university, for example, they've got a lovely degree certificate, they run into the office and they're really proud of it because their mum and dad are obviously proud of them. They take it into the world of work. How do they deal with that status or adding or contributing value?

8:35It's really difficult. I mean, I was reminded the other day of when I was a young man and I was just before I'd written any books and I was trying to get, I was trying to get an agent, a literary agent. And so what they say is that if you want to get a literary agent, find out all the authors that you like, find out who their agents are and write to them. So I did. And there was a writer called John Ronson. I used to be a big fan of when I was a young man. And so I found his agent and I emailed them. And I'd been a journalist for about a year, I think. And I'd won this award. I won this new journalist of the year award.

9:06It was a big deal. And I emailed them and said, I've won this award and da, da, da, da. and the assistant who got the email forwarded it to the agent but accidentally CC'd me in it. And the comment was, this guy sounds like a bit of a dick. And I was absolutely crushed. I was so embarrassed. But then also I was thinking, but what am I supposed to do? Like I'm trying to get an agent and I've won this award. And so that means like I'm trying to get spotted. So it's a really difficult thing. And obviously I got it a bit wrong. But I still now as a 51-year-old man think, what was I supposed to do?

9:41I struggle with because we employ huge amounts of people in different industry sectors and we take graduates, particularly who are very, very smart. They're rewarded and recognised for how brilliant their brains were. But when they come into the world of work, that's not always the thing that gets them the most amount of value. It's the interpersonal relationships, it's the other elements they may not have been taught or have a certificate for that actually get them on. Is that part of the whole status proposition? yeah definitely and i think we can get hung up on the things like the the degrees the awards this that and the other what really matters again you know always going back to that adding value you can sit around the table with somebody and they come up with a great idea and suddenly you respect that person they could have just walked in with their first day at work and wow you know they've gone up in your estimation yeah and and and so that that's the game really you know like and i and i think that that's the trap people can fall into i suppose is that they see that i've achieved this that and the other in my past and that means that you should respect me yeah and that is not how it works you know you've got it you've kind of got to be adding that you've got to be you know adding that value to the group you know all the time and and and that's the way that you'll rise up the group okay then put your hat on the other side of the discussion you're the employer you're setting up an organization yeah you understand that this status thing is very important and people kind of how do you construct an organization which becomes a bit more egalitarian but is focused on the status of individuals within it?

11:03Well, there's a few different things that you need to do. And I think for leaders, you know, one of the big things is to understand that your job as a leader is to be a status generating machine. That's what you are. You're there to generate status for the organisation and for the people within it. And if you fail to do that, you're not going to be a leader for very long. And that's not just about being fired by the board or whatever. That's also about having the respect of the people underneath you. Like if you walk into that organization and you say this is my plan to to win against our competitors and to you know build the status of our organization which trickles down to the individuals everyone loves to be part of the organization that's winning um they're going to respect you they're going to admire you they're going to you know they're going to give you the status but but if your plan doesn't work so so that's the main thing is that's your job you're a status generating machine but in terms of um um creating a functional and healthy status game within the organization there are a few sort of there are a few kind of important principles what one of the big ones is that you want to have that you know you're talking about fairness and unfairness there has to be the perception of fairness in the organization the moment it it feels like status is rewarded on who's mates with the right and wrong people or who's the right face and the wrong face exactly it's all gonna you're gonna get toxicity you're gonna get you're gonna get people um pulling back and and and sort of de-identifying with the organization so so so that perception of fairness i think you need a culture in which status is freely awarded and and it's encouraged and and so um you know in a toxic organization people are very where people are scared of being admonished and fired they um they become um possessive and they hoard their status and so that means they stop giving it to other people and they start sort of being scrappy about, that was my idea, no, that was my idea.

13:00In the worst cases, you get a company like Enron who end up breaking the law because they get so desperate. And I find a really important principle for employees is creating what I call competence space. Okay. So competence space is the idea that you have to give people the space to make their own decisions. Because if I'm going into work, I want to show you that I'm smart, that I'm strategic, and I'm this, that, and the other. In order to do that, I need to have space to make my own decisions. And I think really horrible jobs are ones where you have a very strict list of things you have to do by this time, and you don't have space to make your own decisions.

13:36You become like a robot. And when psychologists look at this, they even find it's important for people who are cleaning in hospitals, don't tell them exactly what to do, which is, you know, give them some freedom and then let them make their own decisions. and even that has a huge impact on people's satisfaction with their jobs because they feel like they've got space to show who they are. Yeah, some autonomy and space to say, look, I made a great decision and some go, ah, it's amazing what you've been doing there. That's a great idea, you know. And they can be recognised for it. Yeah. I suppose the challenge is that in a capitalist environment, it's about who's going to win, who's going to run fastest.

14:09But you're then on this other side saying that the best environments work when there is some fairness or the perception of fairness, at least how do they sit together though? Well I mean I think we've got this sort of weird thing where competition sometimes is seen as a bad thing but it can be but it can also be a positive thing depending on how that kind of status game is played and if you're in a work environment where status is freely awarded where somebody relatively junior can be sitting around a conference table with the boss and say something and it's a great thing and the boss goes that was brilliant Lisa amazing then you know then then then and that and Lisa can go out of that that room feeling like the king of the world then then then that's a good culture and so you know and I think it's that the idea of you know I think it's quite dated that kind of idea of capitalism as this kind of red in you know tooth and claw fights and survival of the fittest thing zero-sum game we're a cooperative animal and an organization is a cooperative group and if everybody does their bit and adds value to the group the group wins i mean that's one of the other principles of status in human groups is we we play the status on two levels yeah it's individual status there's me versus you but there's also group status so when apple wins against microsoft or whoever it is then everybody apple feels great yep and and so so so everybody wins that you know if if every individual plays their part and adds the value they ought to be adding and those other organizations then have aspirations about trying to get back to that so yeah gender is more competition so i definitely degree competition if you're within the organization you have often said that status can be more valuable than money yeah but people are exchanging their time and their value for money right within that system what's your your framing of why you think status is more important than value well because that's how people respond like there was one study where people were offered um a pay rise or a more higher status job title and 70 opted for the higher status job title you We have evolved to crave status.

16:11Money hasn't been around long enough to affect the wiring of our brains. So money is a proxy for status. Money is a symbol of status. But actually money is a very bad motivator. So money is a good short-term motivator is what psychologists find. So if you offer somebody a pay rise or you say to somebody, if you hit this target by next week, you're going to get this reward. That works. But long-term it isn't. You give somebody a pay rise, within a couple of weeks, they've forgotten about it. They've forgotten it. It's gone. Yeah, and they kind of feel, well, I deserved it. That's what I deserved.

16:42Yeah, that's a shame for my time. So what motivates is that promise of future status. That's what gets people, I've been in the morning, that's what gets them excited, that win. You know, I'm always struck by the true origin story of the iPhone. I don't know if you've ever heard the true origin story of the iPhone. Well, the true origin story of the iPhone was Steve Jobs, his wife had a barbecue and invited to the barbecue as an executive of Microsoft. And this Microsoft executive was rubbing Steve Jobs' face in it, saying we've solved the future of computing. We're going to make these tablets and they've got this stylus.

17:12And you do the thing with the stylus. And apparently he was just really sort of telling Steve Jobs, we've beaten you, we've got this. And so Jobs walked into Apple on Monday morning, furious, furiously about this guy and said, right, we're going to do something better. And it's not about a stylus, it's about a finger. We want to know. And that became, it was the iPad first, they shrunk it into a phone and then came to the iPad. So that all comes out of status. that competition and rivalry, you know, so that's the real stuff that changes the world and creates innovation. It's like, I'm going to show you.

17:45But in a healthy sense, like no one's dying. It's healthy competition. But does that not only relate to individuals who have ticked off the lower Maslow needs and they can be thinking about these grand jobs? Because I think for many people who are watching where cost of living crisis is quite important, the fact that their kids are going to be, We were talking earlier, their kids are going to be at home forever because they can't afford their own pay. Or jobs are more scarce now with the onset of artificial intelligence and disruption in the workplace. Aren't people still really impacted by what they're going to get as a salary?

18:19Even if you're short term, maybe like five or ten years, it's still important as a decision maker. Oh, yeah, of course. I'm not for a moment saying that money doesn't matter. Of course money matters because money is a proxy for status. And also, of course, as you say, as you're really pointing out, we need money to survive. So, you know, I talked before about how humans want two things, connection and status, but there's really three. They want survival. We've got to survive first. But even on the survival level, it doesn't mean you don't want status. I mean, when psychologists look at luxury purchases, people in the lower socioeconomic groups spend a higher proportion of their income on luxury goods.

18:59so you know status is important to everybody and it's necessary for everybody and as i say from the from the kind of more entry-level jobs the minimum wage jobs even you know like the people need to feel respected and valued and often of course in those jobs they don't which is why they find those jobs and the churn and those jobs are quite high yeah so somebody watching this now they're thinking about where they're going to put their chips in terms of either the next transition where they're going or the first job they're entering into the market. How do they assess before they go into an organisation where they should put those chips?

19:32How are they going to work on the basis that status is that important and they should be picking opportunities in that regard? Well, I think it's that, you know, it's a bit sort of cliche really, but it's that idea of kind of following your bliss. It's that following, you know, what gives you pleasure? Because often the things that give you pleasure are the things that you're good at. It's very unusual for somebody to take pleasure in an activity that they're rubbish at. You know, it happens. People pay you a lot of money for that. We've all seen it, X Factor. But like, so I think that's the thing to do.

20:03And I think follow the stuff that you think you're good at and have faith that the money will come after that. You know, because it's the stuff that we enjoy doing. It's the stuff that you don't need to feel like you need a big motivational speech to get out of bed and do it. You want to get out of bed and do it. that's the path which you know if it's practical to follow and I know it's not as simple as that life isn't as simple as that No but I think it is so I actually really agree with it but when I speak to lots of younger people at colleges or universities I say the first couple of jobs you should do don't chase the paycheck because actually you could nail yourself into a corner where you're on this hamster wheel and you're stressed burnt out ill and unhappy is that a good point particularly when you're in your early 20s the disparity between salaries depending what job you pick at that early stage is quite limited usually around because you're entry level they're going to be similar so you might as well in those first couple of choices pick jobs that you love yeah and you can get great returns from and then so i really love this focus around status for young people because i think if more people told them at school or at college or university do something you love first where the value you give is going to get you more in the future yeah i think that deferral of gratification till later will be much better for their mental health and everything else associated.

21:23Yeah, and when I started writing my first year, I think I was being paid 12 and a half P of work. Like, it's just like, but you know, I was like 22, 23. I was living in one of those shared houses with like everyone's in a room with a Yale lock on it. You know, but it's fine when you're that age. You don't mind, you know. And the first magazine I actually worked for in London as a young man, nobody was talking about money. I mean, it was a very kind of male, masculine competitive environment a bit bully boy yeah um but what people were competing on was who could have the best first sentence for their piece who's got the best structure you know so there was it was hugely competitive but it was all about excellence it was all about who creativity and excellence and that was really formative for me i mean nobody would nobody was talking about money um but but and i think i did fall into that trap a bit as a young man thinking well am i i'm just not earning any money you know i'm working for this massive magazine i'm writing half of it oh that's how it felt I wasn't that's what I told myself you know and I'm earning hardly any money you know like they'll sell one page of advertising and pay my wages for six months you know I didn't get it but that's just what it's like when you're like nobody actually sat me down and said because you're young that's like when you start in the game that's the game but you've got to have that faith that if you keep pursuing excellence if you keep offering value it will happen you will get you know you'll get to where you want to go like you will yeah

22:50I wish I had known about that earlier Yeah Because I Coming from a lower Social economic group Yeah The main pursuit was the numbers Yeah It was to get something That would magically Take you out of the lower Social economic environment you were You would climb your social status And that was all connected to money But actually the status was The more value I could add The more money I would earn Yeah And that was the cycle But I didn't learn that Too far too late I suppose There's lots of people Who manage people What would you advise those managers in terms of getting the most amount of people out of their employees by moving away from some of the traditional leadership, maybe mechanisms and focusing more on adapting their techniques around status and value?

23:32Well, I think one of the really important principles is there's a neuroscientist, I think his name is Daniel Cable. He talks about this idea called the me in we in an organization. And so what a good manager does is they understand how the individual fits into the organization. And so, and so, um, uh, the me, me and we refers to, I think of it like a band of superheroes, like the perfect organizations, a band of superheroes where they're all fighting the same villain or what we know, pursuing the same goal, but each is bringing their own individual talents. And what, and what works brilliantly, what works really well in these, in these studies is, is, is when the manager recognizes you're really good at this, that this is your genius.

24:11And I love the fact that you did that. And, and, and that person feels like, oh, yeah, I'm seen. Absolutely. I know it's a kind of a cheesy thing, but it actually really matters. And I think the mistake that historically a lot of organisations have made, especially in the 20th century, was to think that when you come to work, your loyalty is 100 % to the company. You become a company robot. You become this kind of automaton. It's almost like the communists. You have to be this perfect, loyal, brainwashed drone. And that's actually not healthy at all. And it's not going to motivate people. We have to have this balance of, as I said, the me and we, like I'm coming to work as me, as this individual, and I'm really good at this stuff.

24:51I don't like doing that stuff. And that helps the organisation in these following ways. And it's part of a really good manager's job is to understand the individual and to make that individual feel valued for the particular specific things they're bringing to the mission. So a part of it is how do we recognise the value in other people? Because you can come in and I'm seeing everyone, the new entrants of graduates, the new entry of employees. I have to understand the state, the value that they're bringing in. How have you seen that working incorrectly within organisations? I think organisations can be very susceptible to kind of cliqueishness.

25:35I think I've seen organisations where the people get rewarded because they're in with the right group and not in with the other group. I think one of the problems that you get in organisations quite often is people who are less agreeable. Like there are a couple of personality traits that are sort of better tuned for success in organisations. One of them is agreeableness. So just being a nice, friendly, pleasant person. The nodding dog. Yeah, the nodding dog. And those can be yes people, yes men and yes women. and you very often get situations with bosses where they fall for the flattery. We always want to believe that we're making the right decisions because they're as susceptible to status as anybody else if they're surrounded by people who are telling them they're amazing and wonderful.

26:26And then somebody comes along and says, actually, I think this is a terrible idea. That person can get punished, but actually that person's often the truth teller. That person's the first person you want to listen to. So I think that is a perennial problem where bosses fall for the lie of the kind of BS that they're surrounded by. But the challenge is that if you go against the way that the company is structured, the culture within a vehicle, you can do the thing that you said is the most disruptive to us as animals. You can become ostracised. So if you're the whistleblower, you can then lose all your status.

27:05There's a big risk for people to take in terms of calling out stuff that may not be working. How does somebody who is within an organisation has built up their status but sees something wrong? How do they deal with that risk? Well, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, if the organisation has a good culture and that culture is one where that person feels like they're not going to be risking their job by kind of pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, then that means there's some good leadership there. but it's almost like a karmic thing if that culture doesn't exist then they're not going to they're not going to find out and and i and i think that that's that's right i mean i i think the kind of perfect kind of c-suite really is where you've got a leader who um is surrounded by people who are going to object to them yes but there's enough respect where the leader makes the decision and that's the decision is made there we go yeah and they support and they try and make it work i mean that that that's how it's that's how it ought to work yep um but but you have to have that leader who's got the um who's got the self-confidence um to be able to take the criticism and not take it personally and so there's a surprising amount of a number of leaders who haven't got that you know i don't think it's surprising i don't think it's very but i think that is that that is where i think it really worries me about corporate cultures at the moment because the challenge is on one hand we've got the marketing material it says come in bring your whole self to work and we value every single idea equally and the reality is once you go in people are protective of their positions yeah which is the antithesis of what you're saying in terms of make successful organizations but so many people can understand that story how do you navigate the way through because you're trying to get value you're trying to climb up the ladder you're trying to get to your self-activization point at the top yeah but you don't want to upset the apple cart too much otherwise you won't get that status well i i i think yeah i mean firstly i think the idea of bringing a whole self to work is a bit overplayed like i don't actually agree with that i think we all have different parts of our identity that are appropriate for different parts of our lives and yeah this idea of that we ought to bring our whole self to work including our knitting and it's like that's a kind of narcissism it's like i agree with you totally i don't want your whole self you don't want to see my whole self at work it's not something that should be ever unleashed on me but i agree with that yeah yeah so so so there is so there is that but but yeah i i think you know it is hard to kind of navigate um on the way up and again i just keep going back to that idea that it's as long as you're kind of offering value you're going to be an ally to people people people are going to want to be on your you know on your team and it really is is focusing on that as you know what am i offering and having that faith that the status will come back because it will like as long as you're not in a toxic organization it will.

29:57So practical steps, what does someone do to disrupt the status quo but protect their status? Disrupt the status quo? In what sense do you mean? So I've identified something, I've identified something that isn't working, could work better, but I know if I do my manager's going to be called out or the chain of command is going to be slightly disruptive, but it is for the betterment of the whole vehicle, the Enron scenario. If everyone has said left instead of right do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think what what i would recommend is is to you've got to respect that chain of command i i think i think a basic error is to leapfrog the manager that you think is a problem and then you end up just everyone in there there's that but and there's also a really important way that you you can offer criticism without it sounding like criticism so so i and i think you know like if part of my work i'm an editor you know so i work with other writers and and and when you're in that context it's the same it's very important like you can say oh this is fucking rubbish i was bored shitless yeah that's crap all of those things that are going to be true but you don't say that you say well you know this bit i think could be tightened up you know it's about focusing on here here's some stuff i think that can be better yeah rather than saying wallowing all the stuff that's not very good and not good enough and complaining yeah and that's a really fundamental thing about status and about communicating status is that people love stories of i know how to make this better i'm going to make this better and you know that's one thing politicians or good politicians ought to know often they don't and and that is that um that the you know for for for good or for ill make america great again is a is a is a um was a very seductive message to millions of americans yeah but but it's a promise of future status it's like it's a hope and and you know and barack obama had hope and tony blair had new labor new britain he's a positive and you know keir starmer didn't have that keir starmer had negativity the black hole you know all the All they were talking about for the first few months was the black hole.

31:52The big hole, yeah. The Tories black hole. And it's like, people don't want to hear it. Depressing. Yeah, it's depressing. They want to hear hope. They want to hear, here's how we're going to increase status. So have you got to lie to be a good leader? No, it's about what half of the truth you're going to tell. You know? I like it. Don't lie a little bit. Yeah, it's about what half of the truth. Like when you're editing people's copy, like half of the truth is, this stuff isn't working, it's crap. But the other half of the truth is, that I've got some ideas to help you make, turn it into something that's really good.

32:22So don't say that, say that. And it motivates people. And you still get this, well, actually, you don't get this, you get a better result. Better result. Because people are motivated and they're like, it's like the carrot rather than the stick. Yeah. And I found it most interesting for me when this topic came up around status and you were the name in the frame to have this conversation because of extensive work. I remember being rewarded with lots of status and value because I'd won a television show. Yeah. And I'd gone in and everyone thought that my proverbial didn't smell because I'd won this show.

32:54I'm doing really well. And then it's really interesting, the fall down afterwards, once the buzz and popularity disappears. And you don't have that anymore because it's an old series. No one watched it anymore. You walk into rooms, no one invites you to the fancy parts, etc. How do people want to hold on to that status that they once had once it starts disappearing? and it comes back to I think what you're saying is that you've got to constantly be adding value and the assumed thing was that the previous value that I had was sufficient to carry me into the future and it's not it's a constant iterative process isn't it yeah and so how did you cope with that then it must be quite difficult it was very difficult because I'd made it the status pursuit my focus rather than the thing that got me into the position of having some level of status I focused on the outcomes and the outputs rather than the inputs.

33:47So doing a good job, persevering, overcoming adversity, beating the odds, all of those lovely stuff, which I'd done since I was a kid, because what my mum taught me, but I then got caught up in the hype of, oh, you're the guy that won the show. This is the outputs, the nice stuff that came along and associated with it. And I think for many people at work, I think they get caught up with the trappings of status and value, being called the emperor and forget about focusing on doing the work. Doing the work is the most important thing for me. And to your point, the status will come. But actually the status should be incidental because you should always constantly focus on doing the work.

34:25Yeah, because I'm always fascinated by fame, especially the fame that you experienced because it's, you know, humans didn't have, we're not designed to experience fame. You know, we evolved in groups of, we would have spent most of our lives around 30 to 50 people. That's it. So that's your status game. You know, you're not like millions of people knew who you were, you know, like even all these years later. It was BBC Two, not millions. No, I recognise you still after all these years, you know. But it's hard because, and I especially feel for younger people who have that sudden fame. Yeah. Because, you know, status, you want it to go up.

35:03And it's almost impossible to sustain that level of status, like of fame, even for somebody like a Billie Eilish. Yeah. or a Taylor Swift, there's going to come a point where... You were yesterday's newspaper. Exactly, yeah. And I think Taylor's at that point now. Now you will get hate. Now you will get hate. Forget all the other stuff you've ever said. The Swifties are coming for you. No, no, no. Sorry, Swifties. But it's hard. It's going to be hard for her. And I think that's one of the things about very, very high status. You look at people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, who are obviously in industry and think, well, they've got everything they want.

35:37How can they possibly be unhappy? but Jesus, the status game they're playing, who is, like, you know, like you're competing against the most powerful, successful, driven, motivated people in the world. So it's not a picnic being Elon Musk. It's not a picnic being Jeff Bezos. Well, I wouldn't get out of the violin just yet, but... No, no, no, no. But like, it's not, but it's very naive to think because they're super rich that they're super happy. Like, I don't think that's true at all. So do you think that status and happiness are not compatible? Yeah, not compatible, no. At all? Well, a little bit.

36:09So I think status is like a drug. It's like heroin. It's just like you were saying before, you need to hit after hit after hit after hit in order to keep feeling good. And it's like, you know, like you can achieve something amazing and then six months later you can feel like in the pits because you've not achieved anything. There's often times in my life where I'm feeling a bit down. It's like, I just need a win. I just need any kind of win and I'll feel better. so so so i think status is good i i think you know it makes you happy in the in the short term i think we talk about love and belonging that's a much more reliable source of happiness i agree um um but but but we need the status too because the status gives our lives kind of this meaning and purpose but but but but it is it it goes away like you can you can win you can win an award or you know sell out a whole bunch of books or you know whatever it is smash your kpis whatever it is you've done all of those things yeah but like but but and and then six months later as i say six months later six weeks later you you can be in the pits because something you've had something you've had a failure yeah so so so it's a very unreliable it's a very unstable source of happiness and i think that probably the the the most successful lives in terms of status aren't the ones where they end up being taylor swift or elon musk are the ones where you've got this life where there's been steady growth of status and it's steady and it's manageable and it's not going to send you crazy like like a celebrity goes crazy you know and you're not going to have a sudden drop you know so i think and i think one of the ways to to to kind of play status games in a more psychologically healthy way that's stable is to play multiple games okay you know so and i'm guilty of this you know you throw your whole life at one game it makes you very vulnerable because because when things do start going wrong as they inevitably will that's your identity that's going wrong it's not just your job whereas if you've got a number of different games that you're playing you know every status game that you play is a different identity that you've got it's a different version of you and the more versions of you that you can have the more stable you are in terms of one of these games going wrong so are you saying to to people who are watching that they should have a work-life balance don't throw all the eggs into the the work basket where you get at the easiest trans transaction of value find other things that you can transact in the same way in case that one falls off the cliff exactly but sometimes we think about work-life balance in terms of like the balance between work and rest but but but this is much more about um different forms and versions of you so my wife is a super successful woman yeah but she's obsessed with garden yeah so that's a status game for her like she you know she she she you know wants to have a great the best garden you know so she spends hours in the garden yeah but that but so that's a big source of meaning for her is that she spends the whole weekend in her garden now i i do voluntary work in my spare time yeah that's right which is a different um um source of meaning you know when i'm when i'm at the samaritans i'm a different person in a way than i'm that and so that and i deliberate that was a very deliberate thing i did because i just thought well you've got to start doing some other things what why why why was that important because i don't have children it's one of the main things and i think that when you have children um so being a parent is a kind of is another source of meaning right and it is kind of in a weird way status 100 nobody wants to be just a dad or a mom they want to be a good mom a good dad and and if you say you're not a good dad exactly so that's that's it but also you start playing status games through your children like You start being proud of your children's successes.

39:48And when you're not a parent, that's kind of a whole missing chunk. And so I thought, well, how am I going to kind of, you know, because I think there's something wonderfully, obviously selfless about being a parent. You're sacrificing a lot to be a parent. You're giving up a lot. You're giving of yourself. And so I wanted to do something that would kind of fill that gap, really. So that's why I joined the Samaritans. I think it's amazing work that you do in terms of the hours you get. it's incredibly important if there is an exchange that's happening in terms of value on both sides how are people in this technological age dealing with the disruption to work where turning up an effort was seen as rewarded where now technology is disrupting lots of that exchange process for many people how are you seeing that this really hard one ai especially in the creative industries um i think in terms of what i do at the moment ai just isn't good enough to replace like it just isn't but i think but i think it's very naive to think it's never going to be um and it's like a writing yeah exactly so you can ask ai to write you a novel when it's not going to write you a good novel like it just isn't it's a lot of words to give up exactly and it's going to give you this kind of average kind of guess and actually the best creative stuff is individual it's about you and your individuality your strangers and your weirdness and AI doesn't do that.

41:12But as I say, it's naive to think it's never going to get there. And it is, I don't know, I'll give you my optimistic version about AI because we always say the negative one and I'm not saying this is the truth but I'm saying this is what I hope. So Steve Jobs always used to have this idea of the personal computer as a bicycle for the mind and I think in his lifetime we never actually saw that really. The idea that you have this contraption that just like takes you and just makes you better. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the optimistic version of AI is it's that, is it raises everybody's gain. So I think, you know, fast forward 20, 30 years when we've had our whole generation raised on AI, they're all going to have the same tools.

41:53You know, it's a bit like, you know, with the equality of opportunity thing, they still got the same equality of opportunity. Like, assuming that there's not like an AI that costs a fortune and everybody has an AI. Which may very well happen. Like, that would be a bad thing. And so with everybody having the same tools, there's still going to be a hierarchy on top of that. Of course. You're still going to get your Bjorks, you know, your individual geniuses, your Cormac McCarthy's, the people who are exceptional. So I still think there's place for, you know, human excellence. And I think a big part of human excellence, especially in the creative industries, is our weirdness.

42:29Like, you know, it's our lateral thinking. The unpredictability. The unpredictability. it's what your, you know, is that me and we again? What are you bringing from your life and your experience and your background that's different? Yeah. And that's the value. And that's the value that AI can't have because it's AI is, is the sum of the mass. I'm so tempted to go down a black hole with AI, but we haven't got enough time to do it because I think it is fascinating that, you know, the film WALL-E. Yeah. Yeah. That's my vision of the sleepwalking path that we're on, because we're outsourcing everything to what we believe is intelligence.

43:10And it's not. It's actually hoovering up stuff to automate some practices and actions that we take for granted. and eventually before we know it we won't be having the capacity to use um our thinking process which is the beauty of us in terms of us as an animal group to come up with the innovation that we are renowned for and that really worries me but i like that you've got positive balance and i'll i'll lay out as i say i'm not saying that's it no no no but it's just it's a possible future No, no, no. Which I hope. Yeah, I'm not posing this as a pro-negative. I like the fact that your first default was to go positive because I'm more, I'm very worried.

43:51As a parent, I'm very worried that my children are walking into a situation where they will be the generation brought up on it. And what is that doing to the way that their brain functions and moves where we are expecting them to be able to navigate? We can't expect them to navigate social media, let alone anything else. Well, exactly. So there's a whole, anyway. Yeah. A thing that you did mention, which I really love, is around storytelling. So that's the other S that you're really down for, right? Tell us, how do you think that people should be using storytelling to increase their value and their enjoyment at work?

44:23I think it's really important that we tell and we have an optimistic kind of positive story about ourselves and our work. Every organisation, hopefully, well, not every organisation, but most organisations, they're doing something good in the world. It might not be that they're an NGO, like it might not be Amnesty International, but even Sainsbury's, like, you know, if you work at Sainsbury's, you're doing good in the world. You're creating convenience, you're providing good food. you know so so so i think it's really important that people have a kind of heroic idea of of what they're doing when they get up and go to work there was a there's an iconic set of studies you might have heard about this before that a guy called adam grant did yeah yeah the call centers yeah yeah where they they um had people in call centers who they were phoning up getting donations weren't they um from alumni universities yeah and and they had those people spend five minutes in the company somebody that was that they that helped and then i think it was like 181 increase in in in money that they raised after that it's just extraordinary and all that's doing is is saying look what you do is important it matters and so so that's that that that's that that's a really important um thing that people feel when they're getting up and go to work that actually doing some they're doing some good and so it doesn't have to be good in the sense of mother Teresa as long as you're offering you're solving a problem for somebody which vast majority of organizations if not all are somewhere then then that's the story that you want to be telling about about the world and I think just on the flip side as well there are very negative stories that people can fall into which are very toxic and these are kind of victim stories you know so I think in the in story give us an example so so in story in story psychology when you see yourself as a victim, what that does is it absolves you of blame for doing stuff wrong.

46:15Because it's their fault. Yeah, exactly. So that's why it's seductive. People love to be a victim because it's not my fault. But what it also does is it takes away your agency. You become to feel like a child, completely kind of powerless. And of course, often in life, we are victims. We are. Like, you know, everybody. It happens. Everybody in life will be a victim of a horrible bastard. They get bullied. They might experience prejudice in the workplace, whatever it might be. But there's something psychologists call a kind of victimhood mindset, which is very corrosive. And it means that people sort of obsess about their kind of victimhood and they want to share with other people.

46:53They want to have everybody see that their victimhood is real. And it becomes a kind of toxic story that kind of can soak into the workplace. You can get status from it. Yeah, exactly. It is a kind of weird status being a victim. And it is difficult because sometimes we are. Sometimes it's true. And actually, in those times, you want to fight back. You want to, you know, repair the damage. But getting stuck in that mindset is a bad story to tell. Because, again, it is a negative story about you, actually, and it's a negative story about the world in general. And it can become pathological, I think.

47:27So you don't mind that they've been damaged by a situation. It's more so the story they tell themselves as a result of that. yeah but also separating out you know we've all met people who um are genuine victims and we've all met people we've also met people who actually see themselves as victims and they they never can are able to admit their part in their own downfall and i think it's the latter group that the the ones that are stuck in that story yep um you know it's easy to tell stories in which I'm blameless. It wasn't my fault. And sometimes it is. So what would your advice be to somebody who has suffered at work?

48:14What's the story they should be telling? Well, I think you need to hold on to your agency. You know, I think that's the thing. I think we all have power. We all have agency. We do. and I think that the danger of seeing yourself as a victim is that becomes erased in you and you feel completely powerless and it's very depressing, you know. And so it's hold on to your agency, hold on to your power. I can do something. And do something about it, you know. Don't just sit back and accept it and don't fall into complaining and moaning and whining. Do something about it. See, I like the fact that there are spaces where you can say what's wrong but you can also find allies to support you because sometimes as you know from your work you get into a space where it closes in and you can't do anything for the first time in my life i suffered depression i'd never experienced it i'm the most optimistic happy-go-lucky person i tore my acl i tore my acl my leg and i couldn't move and my movement is central to my my being when did this happen uh a year and a half ago god you know and i couldn't move and i was like I'm disabled.

49:23And I started telling myself this really dismissive story about I couldn't do anything. I removed all of my agency in that moment because I catastrophised how bad it was because I couldn't see an end. I couldn't see a thing. I had to ring a bell for my missus to help me to go to the toilet. It was like completely dependent. For an independent person like me who's used to doing what I want when I want, it was the worst. But I needed help in that situation. And my help came from my wife. it came from my children it came from my physio who gave me encouraging things to say this is normal this this is this is how it is but if you do this you'll get through so i think that i agree with you 100 there is a need for agency of the individual but there's also need because of who we are and what you've acknowledged in terms of our our tribal nature for a community to come around you and support you yeah and at the world of work i think it's important to have allies who can step in when you can't because you don't have the agency or the power i think it's incredibly important to have people who are like you to help you and support because they can say i understand where you're coming from but i also agree with you we can't get into this negative spiral yeah of just reinforcing the negative story we have to look for the hope yeah to get us through yeah it's interesting and you were depressed were you when i i never got tested so i don't want to take away from people who are clinically but you felt that way i felt totally depressed i sat down and I wept I was like well I can't move I'll never be able to run I'll never be able to do jiu-jitsu all of the and it kept getting worse it just kept getting well I kept thinking of all the things I was I'd lost but I forgot to focus on the fact I was alive I could train I could I had a physio I had the resources to go and find ways out and it was all of those little things that eventually chipped away at all of the catastrophe bits that I'd built up but it took it took determination it took it took effort to do that and i can understand for the first time in my life because i was like well just smile just go out in the sunshine touch grass and i'm like it's hard i'm lucky that i have the strength of will to move through there but there's many people who are watching who sometimes don't so i like the fact you're saying find the agency but i also want people to know that sometimes you do need help to do that of course you do yeah absolutely and that and that goes back to us being this highly social animal like that you know no man a woman is an island it's true you know we are human beings yeah we are human beings and we we need that community we need the tribe that's how we've evolved yeah so you say on that note you say story is all about obstacles and goals right yeah um what's how do we how do we deal with that in terms of the stories that we tell ourselves so that's kind of a fundamental kind of definition of story every story is in the accounts of somebody overcoming an obstacle in pursuit of a goal um And if that isn't in your story, it's not a story.

52:11And I think there's a really interesting way that you can see your life as that. You know, what is your life but a series of obstacles that you've overcome in pursuit of goals? And, you know, the lovely thing really is that's the definition of a hero. You know, it's somebody who has done that. You know, when you overcame your depression, that was a heroic act. And you'll shrink from saying that. But it's true. It really is. And, you know, and when I'm on the phone at the Samaritans, you know, often people who are depressed and I see a lot where people who are absolutely in the pits of, you know, the most awful kind of situations.

52:50And I sometimes say to them that you don't feel heroic at the moment. You feel anything but. But I promise you, you're a hero at the moment. The fact that you're surviving, the fact that you're getting through this is the absolute definition of a hero. That's what a hero is. And sometimes they don't want to accept it because they don't feel that way. I feel horrendous, but it's like, yeah, but you are a hero. It's a heroic, the fact that you've picked up the phone tonight is a heroic act. You know, you're overcoming these obstacles. And as much as it hurts and as painful as it is, you're doing it.

53:23You're trying to fix it. You're trying to solve it. So that person who's watching, who's having a difficult time at work, the very fact that they get up and they're in the office on time doing the work and they feel like crap. they are the hero that is the hero story right it is yeah it absolutely is and we think of the hero as Luke Skywalker getting his medal at the end of Star Wars and it's like yeah okay you might get your reward at some point but actually the stuff of heroism that's the pain that's the exhaustion that's the feeling like I can't do it but you do it you get to work on time and you look your boss in the eye and you turn the computer on and that's what a hero is I see the film in my head The Pursuit of Happiness with Will Smith and it's like the drudgery of sleeping in toilets and getting kicked out of your house and not giving up.

54:07And it's that whole thing, that not giving up piece, that really, so I get it now, but it's almost to you like Steve Jobs, so do I. He stood up at a university talk and he said, no matter where you are in life, sometimes we forget to add up the dots that have got us to this particular point. You stand on this spot and you look behind you and you remember all of the things that have contributed to you being here in this woke moment. and as long as you're alive your dots tomorrow will be different and that's the bit it's getting people to understand that particularly when they're in the workplace where they may not be in the best job yet or they're getting through the course and they're getting to the end it's about stay the course as long as you can see the goal and you can overcome the obstacles yeah absolutely and the goal the place you end up might be totally different to the goal that you had in mind but as long as you keep going and keep working and keep adding value you're going to get somewhere interesting in all likelihood.

55:02What's your goal? What's my goal? Wow, I've got, I would love to publish a second novel. Like that's a big goal for me. I mean, I would like to, I would like to one day be able to afford a place in France. You know, I've got lots of... Robots in France? South of France. Yeah, yeah. I would love to be able to go and write somewhere like that rather than having to stay in Airbnbs, you know. Do you know what you need to do? We tell everybody this, that find a place, a very specific place and take a picture of it and put your screensaver on your phone. So every time you open your phone, you'll see the goal.

55:38So many people don't, they don't articulate the goal clear enough because it really scares them because it's either too far away or the work they'd have to do to get it. But if you have a constant moment and we pick up our phones every day, like the second the sun rises, take a picture of the chateau or the piece of land, whatever it is, and put it on the phone and have it in there, get Claude or someone to do it for you. Put a book in there, your book with your name, with a title on it. I'm telling you, the focus of stuff that will come off the back of that will be transformative. Because I had to do that with my leg.

56:11I was like, I need to look at the medals I want. Oh, wow. I need the medal, because I'm going to get another one. I'm going to get another one. And that was what dragged me, literally dragged me out. And I had to look at it every single day and say, okay, do you want the medal or not? Wow. And either one tells you the story. amazing because it either tells you a place in France is not that important or the book's not really important you're lying or it is important and then you do you're like okay what am I doing today to make that picture on my phone a realistic thing okay so I look forward to seeing the book no that's great we'll do that thank you too yeah amen anyways I've got to get to the last bit of our conversation right because I could talk to you for hours it's been incredibly insightful thank you for sharing so so generously but this section we call the payoff okay don't worry I'm not asking for any money but it is i need to ask a couple of really short five questions and i want your immediate thoughts on these right okay so the first question is the habit that i would steal so what's the habit that you use that has been a game changer in your life your career or whatever that you have employed to get you where you are honestly i think one of the big habits is actually saying no like i'm much better saying no to stuff now like my i think one of the things about understanding status is you can figure out what what what is my status game and my status game isn't money like it's not and so so so i have had you know i could i could work harder in terms of i could take on more gigs and earn more money um but but but i've been in those situations before and i'm miserable i'm miserable i'm stressed out i'm snapping at my wife i'm not sleeping and so and so you know as a as somebody who is sort of you know getting older now um i realize the value of like you know you've got enough money you don't need you can say no to this and actually my life is much more pleasant and i'm a better person when i say no to more stuff and actually weirdly it it has a beneficial effect because when you say no to stuff you can you can concentrate better on the thing that you are doing and you do a better job at that thing and then that that ends up you know raising your status and adding you know and your reputation improves so i think saying no especially if you're in the creative industries.

58:21I think, I know it's hard when you're in an early career, but learning to say no is a really important thing. I think specialisation is good. We tell kids at school to be good at everything, and I don't think you should be. Be good at something, one thing. Find it and be the best at it, and then people will gravitate to you. You'll find your tribe, and you'll be able to add more value. I'm using your language now. You'll be adding more value. But it's true. More people need to think about it in that way. Just focus. Don't do everything. because you feel that one more qualification or one more thing is going to make you better.

58:51It really isn't. Okay, so no is your habit. Okay, productivity hack. What is the productivity hack that you use to get things done? What is the, I mean, it's not very, it's not very kind of take-away-able, unfortunately, but my productivity hack is I go away for weeks, for a few weeks when I've got a book project to do and I lock myself in a nice hotel and I do nothing but think about it So I read like 50, 60 books or whatever it is and think about nothing about that project. And it's like, I swear to you, like I come back from a three week trip feeling like I've done about four months work. Like I feel like I've got this bag of jewels and like I've got this thing now.

59:32And so, you know, books like The Status Game and The Science of Storytelling have all been kind of given birth to in hotel rooms in Vietnam and, you know, Bangkok and stuff. And it's like, I mean, I'm lucky in a way that I don't have children because if I had children, I couldn't do that. I can actually go away for these times. But it's like intense productivity. It's like you're doing nothing but think about the thing. You know, when I'm not reading, I'm walking for like doing three or four hour walks, thinking about it, you know, making notes in my head, voice notes on my phone. So that's transformed my career, being able to do that.

1:00:04What's your greatest failure and what did you learn from it? I think my greatest failure, I lived in Australia for four years. And it was when I learned how to be a freelance journalist. And what I mainly learned in Australia was how not to be a freelance journalist. And, you know, so probably the most prestigious newspaper is the Sydney Morning Herald. And the most prestigious part of the Sydney Morning Herald is called Good Weekend. And it was the Saturday supplement. And I was lucky enough to start getting work at the Good Weekend. So I was very, very pleased with myself. And I just started as a freelancer.

1:00:36I was working in the magazine before I was sort of self-employed. And then so I had a meeting with the Good Weekend editor after I'd been working in Australia for a year or two. and I had brought in sort of 20 ideas to pitch them and I was expecting, hoping to get like two or three commissioned and I walked down the office with like about 16 stories commissioned and I was sitting there thinking, what? Amazing! I can't believe that! So I just sort of, just sort of brilliant and so I just ploughed through these stories, submitted them all and then after a while I went back to them and said can we talk about some more commissions?

1:01:10I said, well we've got so much in the draw from you Will. we can't commission you for at least six months. But that isn't really the failure. The failure was, the reason they had so much in the draw for me is because they hadn't really published many of the things that I'd written. And the reason that they hadn't, I mean, they were very polite about it. They didn't say it to my face, but the reason they didn't publish is because they just weren't good enough. Like I'd seen the dollar signs. I'd got overexcited. I'd rushed through every single one of these things. I'd got cocky. And I do feel embarrassed because I mean, they paid me, which I feel bad about because they hardly published any of it.

1:01:44And it was a massive failure because I didn't treat the craft with the respect it deserved. I didn't treat the magazine with the respect it deserved. I sort of got greedy. Yeah, so when I went back to the UK and established myself as a freelance writer here with these papers, I didn't make that mistake again. It was just like every piece you have to take pride in it and make sure that it's the best thing you can possibly do. And you care about it. you care about it yeah absolutely yeah so final one one piece of advice that you wish you had I think it's optimism Tim honestly like when I started work I was very negative about work in general I kind of like you know my stories I failed on my exams I didn't go to university you know and so I was very sort of I kind of got into writing and that started working for me I started working for magazines but I always had this very and it's all weird because like it's I think it's quite common in young people.

1:02:43Like you feel like the world is against you. You're very cynical and suspicious of the game in general, about your bosses and the organization, the suits, you know. And I just didn't have any faith at all in the basic idea that if you work hard and do a good job, you'll get rewarded. Like I just didn't, I just thought, I just didn't think it worked like that. I don't know why I didn't, but I really didn't. And so I was not only a bit sort of quite miserable, but I think I was also a very difficult employee. I think I was a bit of a dick, you know, to my bosses, to my publishers, my editors. I was defensive and just a bit of a prat, really.

1:03:20And so I really regret that. And I just wish I'd known then that it isn't a fixed game. Like, you know, we've talked about this already. It's not a perfect meritocracy. There are problems. There are, for sure. But generally speaking, like, if you're good at your job, if you work hard, if you're not horrible to be around, you're going to get rewarded the game is going to reward you and if this particular company doesn't you can go somewhere else and if you're and if you're good and you're good to be around you will get rewarded it works like it works this weird capitalism thing that we've got going on like it's not perfect it's there are injustices in there for sure but generally speaking it works you add value you offer value you're going to get value back and so so yeah it's just you know in a word it's optimism like i wish i had more optimism and more hope when i when i was a young man and just beginning in the world of work i'd have been much happier and i've probably been more successful more quickly too listen will that was a brilliant conversation i i not only love the fact that you emphasize around storytelling which i think is important but you really for me brought home what status actually is not about power or getting stuff it's more about the value that you give to people and i think people will really resonate with that once people understand that they can see these things in different ways and know how they can make it work, not just for themselves in a selfish way, but for their communities and their environments and what you beautifully articulated, the tribes that we all need to belong to.

1:04:48So I'm very grateful. It's been really, I can't wait for your book number, novel number two and The Place in France, which I hope I get an invite to. Of course. Thank you, Tim. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for a great conversation. Thank you. God bless. Wow. What a conversation with Will Storr. I loved hearing about how important the stories we tell ourselves are in how we move through the world and also how we're all animals and we're acting based on instinct and survival. The difference being we have the self-awareness to master these games. I really hope that you love the chat with Will as much as I did.

1:05:22Please do drop me a comment to let me know what you thought. You can get a hold of our newsletter where we go deep on what that conversation was and what we learned from Will. More information on it is available on our socials at Reworking Podcast. So make sure that you're following us over there too. thanks so much for your time with this episode please do like follow and subscribe for even more conversations just like this one i'll see you next time