Are We Getting Rekt in 2026? | REKT Vision (December 19, 2025)

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2:09We're back. We're back again. Luckily for one Friday this year, it does look like we're slightly rallying, although the week has not been maybe the best week ever. We did touch 84K, but we're back up to around 88K at the moment in Bitcoin. Join in Friday. Maybe we'll have a little bit of a Santa Claus rally. Who knows? One of the final episodes of the year, we've got on the Blockmates guys. Two guys I've been following Crypto for a while now. I've been on their show and they have their own platform, newsletter, community. Really, really great followers, Grant and Alex, who are both with us in the studio.

2:46And I think hopefully we'll have them on pretty regularly going forward. Thanks for coming on, guys. Really appreciate you spending the time with us.

2:58yeah cheers mando yeah this is quite nice not playing host like our roles have reversed here from the last time we did this exactly two breaths which just makes it so much easier for me to have a conversation with you guys but yeah well i sort of be interested to bring you guys on also in particular is just because you guys follow so many of the the the metas the niche trends in crypto at the moment and i think at the moment there's a lot of self-reflection i feel like in the crypto community there's a lot of questions about what will be the next thing if there will ever be a next thing for crypto what's what's going on and you guys have got your ear to the ground a lot so i thought it'd be uh it'd be really good to have you um have you get on and just you know assess the market alongside us we may even give some predictions for next year i thought that'd be quite a fun way to set up the show.

3:49But this week has been a bit of a strange week. We did hold on to this ADK level for now. And there's been, it feels like on the app layer, we had some big drops and things like Hyperliquid, PumpFun, a lot of, I don't know, timeline speculation that this is more than just a bear market for crypto, that this is over, which is classic because everyone says that, you know, that's the time to go right back in. but what's been your general sentiment in your community at the moment as well like um do you think that we have uh a way to go before we can kind of come out of this rut yeah i think um i think the kind of chats that we're in is relatively being quite self-deprecating like a lot of people laughing at their round trips that they've definitely absolutely nailed the execution on the round trip of um there's like a lot of people have continued to do the same things that made the money in the upwards trending market which is then inadvertently got them completely destroyed when it's in sideways chop down style action um i always recommend playing with much fewer chips when markets are like this it just recognize them when we're entering those times and yeah i think it's a lot of uh hearing people just completely crashing out i'm hearing people going back to study i'm hearing people going to get a job like all the typical memes you know that you see that you see as like sentiment confluence at the bottom um but yeah there's at the same time it's like what i always say is you've got to still have like at least one foot in whether that's in whatever way shape or form but when we're talking about what's next what's next what's next there's always something next people telling you they can tell you what's going to be that charlatans that you shouldn't pay attention to.

5:40The reason something becomes next and becomes a new meta or becomes a new narrative is because no one's seen it coming. So there's ample upside for everyone to get in at a ground level, which perpetuates into forward momentum. Everyone's happy. Everyone's making money. So yeah, but general, it's weird because sentiment seems quite negative when you tie it directly to tokens. Industry as a whole has never been in the better place. Yeah, it's... I mean, there's two ways to answer the sentiment question, isn't there really? There's the way of answering it as a market participant and there's the way to answer it as an industry participant.

6:18And as Grant's saying, I think that what I feel and what we've seen is when you've been around the block a few times, there's a pattern of behavior and we all joke, don't we? it's like how many more crash outs before up only and uh the meme that grant always posts where it's like right bottom's got to be in and i'm not saying it doesn't you know it's it's not painful of course it is it's rough we all question it you wouldn't be human if you didn't but it is it's one of them when you've seen it enough times all the tweets start coming out telling how telling everyone how we're all wasting our time and nothing's ever going to be worth anything ever again and then all of a sudden something happens and it pops and it's out of nowhere and until you're ready and that's why you have to be on it and like why you have to be ready to pull the trigger and know when the right time is and what the right thing is and if you're not comfortable clicking buttons you'll you'll miss it and those of us that do stick around and kind of continue doing this if you're relatively new are always accused of being delusional but and then it's luck but it's not right is it it's like if you're watching closely enough for the timing to be right then you probably will catch the upside at some point so um yeah that's a very good point yeah like you make the most money sticking around in the niche communities when something comes up because then when it goes a bit more mainstream everyone everyone piles in and yeah that's kind of the top so i agree with that and that is generally been when i've made some of my best trades too when it feels a bit more like it's just it's just our niche community it you just want a bit more stability in prices it feels like and at the moment it still feels like we're in that like downward trend there was a we were talking about just before we went on air but there's a popular article even in the last week which is like crypto is dead it sounds like a very aggressive headline but actually the theme of the article is kind of what you just said like the average market participant seems to have gone from cypherpunk to nft collectible person to now more almost like an extension of of um fintech it feels like like that's that's where the conversation seems to be happening when you talk about like you're in crypto and that movement has has naturally actually meant that the number of users has gone up massively over the last year.

8:43And obviously, crypto-enabled businesses are being enabled all over the globe, it feels like right now, for payments, for RWAs, for prediction markets. But the value of our tokens from that original Cypher pump through and then even the NFT ownership through, no one really is paying attention to them. And those are drifting lower. And there's been some talk about the fact that maybe they will just continue to drift lower. And I am not, I kind of can see why that has become a stronger view. There has been a trend this year of apps being more valuable or capturing a lot of the value like Hyperliquid or a pump fund.

9:29I know the ICO came at a high level, but it's clear that businesses in crypto are making a lot of money. but the tokens that make up the large majority of the market cap they don't seem to be capturing that as much as we thought maybe they would and that is like a structural issue it feels like for crypto at this stage what would you guys think i'm sure you read that article too yeah i mean i think just before we get into this and i do want to clarify because it's it doesn't feel like a very nice time to be trading anything at the minute i mean frankly if you are actively trading this market. I want a trading competition.

10:08I was going to say that as a point, Mando. I saw that the other day and I was like, that's the best Christmas Brucey bonus I think of there. I want a perp trading competition for Synthetix. Number one, I have 260 traders, guys. So I've got it. There's some going in this market. It really is, honestly. and that's what I'm saying there's a difference between like kind of realising that there's blood on the streets and potentially some opportunity and obviously the other side of the coin which as you all say Mando it's like you do want to see a little bit of stability because it feels very very difficult right now at this moment in time to predict like I mean we haven't had a utility cycle in God knows how long but what a sensible position would look like and like how something would play out the way you would expect it to but then you could maybe argue that that hasn't been the case for a long time I don't know yeah don't know what you think I think like there's multiple factors that have all converged to this point of why there's a it's the largest disconnect between positive fundamentals and token price across the board and I think that is what is leading a lot of people at the fringes to be a little bit disillusioned right so this article is absolutely bang on amazing title like copywriters dream that like the reach out reach on it people are people are retweeting this without like thinking they're shit grave dancing on on crypto and they like don't actually realize that it's actually fundamentally bullish under the hood so i think i think what's led us to this point um like looking at it through a microscope over the past few years is we've probably had like pre-product valuations that are allowed to play out in the private markets that have been ran up to like dizzying heights before the tokens have actually got to market so and then they've been kind of marketed and brought to market in a way that still is portrayed that there is enough meat on the bone for the average retail participant and there hasn't like a lot of these a lot of these private rounds have been completely seeded out the trades happened you weren't invited the trades happened but now your expected to actually go and buy it at open market right so that led to this huge huge huge overhang of like a really really good private uh allocators market from like 2018 2019 leading into 2020 and 2021 so like people who did that and those vintages of funds like did really really well no one is returning on their their funds from like a more recent vintage because low float high FDV has resulted in a situation where there is so much overhang of tokens in the hands of people that are just happily to offload on the backdrop of negative sentiment.

12:55And it just creates this self-fulfilling prophecy of, well, these tokens are absolutely completely worthless. Like, what are we even doing here? So the equal and opposite reaction of what you've seen to that was, well, let's make it more fair and equal to everyone. Let's just launch tokens for$12 on Pumped Up Fund. So that was the industry reaction to, I don't get access to tokens. Now let's launch a bajillion tokens every single day. That is not the answer, obviously. That's like an equal and opposite reaction. The pendulum is obviously supposed to swing somewhere in the middle, which makes it fairly equal access.

13:29Now we're at the ICO stage. I'd even argue that the ICO stage is being corrupted because you're starting to see billion dollar and multi-billion dollar ICOs that are technically pre-product, right? So no wonder retail participants are disenfranchised and people at the fringes are disenfranchised about what the fuck's going on. Because you've got these tokens that aren't even tied directly to the products that are supposedly on paper and got strong fundamentals. So then I suppose our job is putting our little investor and trader hats on is well, where does the pendulum swing post that? So we've been doing a lot of research and looking into, well, maybe there's projects that are willing to back themselves from and build from a grassroots perspective and build from the ground up so um maybe starting smaller trying to show a product market fit and then expanding there so leaving a little bit more meat on the bone for the average retail participants to actually get early access to be paying a lot more attention to like some metadata what's going on there um just holding teams a little bit more accountable for the amount of capital that they've technically raised and what they want to create from a product as opposed to just going there you go a la carte just maybe go and build what you said you're going to do or maybe don't and then there's also like the downstream effect of what's coming online which i see is a big theme in 2026 of true ownership of tokenized equity whether that be tokens that already already exist going through some kind of backwards compatibility so investors have actual protections as opposed to just this pseudo equity token that's just floating in the ether or you just get projects that launch with zero token and they're just inherently profitable and a token would just inherently become a headache because you've got some unemployable persons in discord asking them to do a bit more marketing and it just becomes a headache so that's the backdrop of what we're in currently yeah it does frame it in in two different ways like you just said like this this framing of just the way that tokens were maybe brought to market is being slightly exposed and that's for legacy tokens as well as recent ones.

15:37And then there's the actual value of the token itself. Are L1 valuations just too high anyway and actually we're going to see a return to apps being the most valuable. I think Hyperliquid is a good example. It couldn't have been a better model. They're buying back all their coins and even now that token's not doing so well because the team has to sell. And you kind of have this, I don't know, this is a strange scenario with all the VC coins that have even come out recently where they've been trying to be portrayed as something else, but they still have this sort of horrific candles as soon as they kind of come to market.

16:20That has definitely not been solved here, like the perfect way to have a token get done. um my i guess i am bullish about crypto right now but but for those reasons for what we just said the most bullish things which is like payments rwas um tokenized share of revenue essentially of various different businesses that are going to be around and you can like i think the stable coin market's going to probably reach 500 billion tvl next year i think rwas could do i mean if the Genius Act gets in, we could get, sorry, not the Genius Act, the Clarity Act, we could get a huge, huge increase in the number of different RWAs that kind of start getting traded.

17:08I'm just still not quite clear if the L1s are really going to benefit from that next year. I still think that we could be in this market where if you bring up the others chart or you bring up total three, I entered crypto quite late. I entered crypto in 2021 and the market is just the same. Like I was speaking to Ovi about it since then. Like when I entered, ETH was like 2 ,500. Like how has it not done anything over this whole period? And it's sort of like insane to me that the L1 trade just has not been the one. And if I'm honest with myself, I don't see a 10X in any of the L1. And I'm only in crypto for getting 10Xs.

17:49But I do see it in some of the apps. And I think it can happen pretty regularly with some of these apps if they're built the same way. Often they'll be built around trading of certain of these assets that get put on chain. But do I see ETH going to 30K? Do I see Solana going to 1 ,000? I just don't see any of this happening. And I don't even think it's – I think Bitcoin may because if it really keeps this digital gold narrative. But the L1s actually being able to capture the value of what goes on in their network, I think that's the real thing that's been challenged as we've now entered more of like a TradFi valuation metric sort of world.

18:31These things will trade at hilariously high P ratios. And there was this idea of like the network effect of them or like owning them as collateral. But I think as stablecoins are just growing so much on all these networks, that's also being challenged too. So I think that if I were to pick one theme that I think is going to be a consistent one for 2026, it's just this extension that apps are going to be where you should invest in, not L1s. Bitcoin still has a slightly different narrative than most of them, but I don't think that is going to really turn. And that can really put off people because I still think that's where a lot of the market cap is in crypto.

19:10It's still in a lot of the L1s. yeah i don't know if they're going to be where i think people can still get burnt basically i think a lot of that as well is i personally would rather that be the case as well like we talk about it all the time like i'm absolutely sick of just infrastructure over and over again and then when even if you get into the like every one of these coming online new l1 l2 is left right and center and you've you've had this weird shift of we had a moment and this year has been like a series of moments i would say we had a moment where everyone was kind of like battling for an identity right and then we were flirting with the app chain thesis and then like now we've started moving back towards like general purpose and i do think that a lot of these l1s are in a bit of an identity crisis as well and if you look at like solana that you've named there what we've seen over the past don't even know when it's been now since in december 2025 from the run-up we had on soul and what happened there technically this cycle last cycle with memes and everything that just breathe immense life into that ecosystem i kind of agree when i look across the board and go what's going to give another network that level of catalyst but maybe that comes back to the point that we made at the start of the show that that's where the fun is like we don't know like what grant said you know we've we've had different people say different things for the last two or three months like oh we're going to be the robotics chain or we're going to be the stable coin chain or we're going to be the you know the agent chain and yeah i mean i agree and it's slightly disheartening from a network point of view but i would like to think it would be more exciting to see what apps do pop off um and where they choose to land as well to be honest um because i couldn't predict it now i think i think we just had like a huge like we had a huge party 2020 2021 with there was an obvious catalyst with Ethereum gas being so egregious that there was an alt L1 trade that was previously never a thing.

21:11So that just spawned like a million different opportunities and variations and slide tweaks on TPS and slide tweaks on the on the virtual machine and slide tweaks on like latency like we've basically shown the past two years that there isn't enough block base demand for more than maybe two three chains at max solana base maybe one or two other flavor of the weeks at the time but like if you if you really like genuinely look at it it all comes back down to like what the activity has been like on solana yes ethereum has got 80 billion or whatever the fuck it is tbl just sat dormant maybe getting put to use on rv or some shit like that but you can't you can't look at me like with serious first and say that the activity hasn't moved over to Solana.

21:56General purpose, I wrote this in the 2025 thesis, general purpose L2s are gone. I will extend this this year in the 26th thesis to general purpose L1s are gone. What you're saying, Mando, I completely agree with. I think what you're going to see and why you've got to look at cause and effect of these kind of things. The reason infrastructure gets incredible investment, even if it just looks completely redundant to the well-trained eye or someone who sticks around the space is because there are a large amount of funds sat on multiple billions that they have to actively allocate under their mandate and you can't effectively do that to applications because applications don't command the same amount of valuation as infrastructure does right so then this creates this weird arbitrage for teams to come around and say well we're going to build i don't know looking a solana fork that has like a rotating sequencer or some shit like that right that should command a much larger valuation.

22:52So these VCs and these funds that are sat on all this dormant capital, got their LPs knocking on the door saying, why isn't this being allocated? Can I just go and take it to like an AI fund or a fund of funds that's going to actually actively allocate it? Say, oh, well, we've just found this L1 that's going to put all of intellectual property on chain. I knew it was going. I knew you. It's got this real good prodigy founder who used to work at Google DeepMind, probably did an internship for like a fucking summer or some shit. I mean, it is. It's like, so that can command i don't know 50 million 100 million from our funds so we are actually actively deploying it whereas all these applications are aren't seeing the light of day but i agree with you that is where the juice and the upside is like 100 and if anything from a retail perspective those are probably going to get overlooked there's probably going to be a little bit more room for the average participant to capture the upside in that because the trades in the infrastructure side, if we're being completely honest, it played out before you or me or the other person on the streets got access to them.

23:56Yeah, that's the other thing. You're right in that those are also where the most egregious financing is kind of done. Maybe if you could get into an L1 trade at a really low valuation, that might make sense if it feels like a network effect. But for a lot of these, it's just, you can even see it. Like the VCs get unlocked and it just creates these horrific situations for the charts of these sort of things. And this is why I'm still kind of like bullish about crypto though, because I do think the amount of money coming on here is going to increase. Like the actual TVL of crypto might, just through stable coins, might increase.

24:33And that also means that the ability, we become way more like an extension of TrabFi. and that has its own issues in that a lot of our valuations actually have to start making sense very quickly. But it also means if something catches fire in our space, it can fly. It can absolutely fly. So I do think it's worth having your ear to the ground about the new things that can happen. But for me, it's got to happen more on the app layer. And then I think the amount of money that can go into it can be very, very quick. I do think in terms of the themes that you guys are seeing, I know, like you said, you never really know until it's happened, but you guys go to a lot of conferences, you see a lot of the stuff that's happening.

25:22I think the last few months we've kind of seen the strongest themes being prediction markets, being privacy, being perps, kind of extending to all asset classes, whether it's equity perps, commodity perps, or all this sort of stuff. Is there anything else that you think has been, is really poking its head out and could be something in the next few months, less than the next 12 months? So a quick break in your regular programming. If you're serious about your future, grab my free report called Prepare for 2030. I think you've got five years to make as much money as possible, and this guide will help you navigate what's coming.

26:04the link is in the description download it now on the backdrop of what we just spoke about i think it's impossible to ignore what stripe and paradigm are doing with tempo i think that wraps up every bullish tailwind of what came at the later part of the year with regards to stablecoin payments the big kids coming to the sandpit kicking sand and giving people wedgies like stripe mastercard are on board, Anthropik are on board, OpenAI are on board. Shit's about to get real and it's basically Convinz Dankrad, who's one of the Ethereum Foundation lead researchers, to go over there and start building one of the minds behind Broto Dankshaden.

26:48They've got Matt Huang from Paradigm, who's leading as a CEO. Stripe back in it. The acquisition of Bridge and Privy now makes a ton of sense. So if you think you can just turn on a general purpose L1 or try and run that playbook of yesterday when you've got teams like this breathing down your neck, not going to happen. That is going to be a really, really interesting one. They've got this really weird and cool, not to get too nerdy or too deep on it, but a consensus mechanism and kind of like a fast lane that only sends payment transactions. So the rest of the activity on the network is kind of separated into one stream and then the rest of the payments, infrastructure obviously being Stripe, is obviously a high priority.

27:30PIMs just go through that stream. So it's a really interesting way and they've got a... There's loads of nerdy shit that I could get into now, but like high level of I was going to pay attention to anything going to 26, it'd be tempo. Grant, before we move on too much from the evaluation conversation, I just wanted to bring up what we were chatting about the other day because I think it's worth dipping into that. You know when we were talking about Revolut, valuations, and if you put that side by side, I don't know whether you... I can't remember the figures that we were discussing at with the initial valuation and like when you put that up against like what we're talking about with these like pre-pmf crypto businesses l1s networks whatever it's like hilarious it's like no wonder no one takes it seriously and i do want to like reference the the exact numbers it was like there are thereabouts the crowdfunding round in 2016 2016 for what looks like you you could literally take that revolute pitch deck which was using i can't remember the crowdfunding platform in the uk if you slap the word neobank on that now it's every it's what everyone's raising against revolute revolute at the time 100 000 users yes they weren't making any revenue yeah there was kind of free revenue to use the like silicon valley valley uh name 42 million wow Wow.

28:51Yeah, this is kind of, I think, what we're getting at. Like, this is the other half of it. I think everyone got really bullish about TrapFi coming in and Sovereign's coming in and buying our bags. And tearing down that wall so that you could buy stocks, you could buy other assets through crypto. And we have all these TrapFi companies investing in crypto. But then the valuations just have to merge somewhat too. I do think there is still going to be that niche the other part of this though is that niche bit I think will there'll still be bits of it like the original cypherpunk community I still think is going to be there and that's why I think privacy will still be a growing narrative next year because I think that that is like almost splintering off from crypto at this stage of like these original group which is like no crypto is not for this it's for and it can now be for many different things That one seems like quite a strong group.

29:50The Zcash, Monero, upgrading some of the other L1s to do privacy. That I can really see growing over the next 12 months as this settles in. I think it'll also be interesting to see what happens to the internet culture elements of stuff. I still like that bit of crypto. though. I still think it can come back as a way to trade different bits of internet culture. And it's been a shame to see that get butchered again this year. But I do think that can also come back at some stage. I'm looking at certain memes. There's a meme right now, the 67 meme. If anyone has any kids, you probably know about this meme.

30:34It's just like this thing that's going around where everyone's making their signals for like 67 if you don't know about it look it up it's like a it's a meme that kind of means nothing but everyone goes nuts whenever 67 goes up on screen and that has a coin i'm like this it does feel like people will like to trade it will and i think that this is what we're talking about as well like crypto was we're talking about using like cypherpunk and that term a lot here but crypto obviously was born out of like a fundamental counterculture right and there's that part of it that we all do we all love like being on crypto twitter and like there's there's nowhere funnier sometimes from a mean point of view into where to spend your time and it's almost like it feels as if we're going through this period of maturation and with that does come some growing pains that mean that things will look a little bit different probably for the better but i agree with you mando i don't think we will leave that completely and frankly i don't want to you know like that is often when the most fun is had for me when that kind of thing is popping off you know there's projects like gte that are i know they're in the middle of like a pivot pre-launch that we've been looking at doing exactly what you were talking about like basically creating creating a terminal for essentially anything memeable across the internet to trade on chain i know that sounds quite abstract and it's a little bit what does that mean exactly i think they're still figuring it out but it's exactly what you're mentioning there like i don't think that appetite will ever go away because like online culture and being online and what people share and what they're into in that aspect is never going to die in my opinion in fact it's actually only getting stronger with tiktok and stuff like that so if there's a way to trade it and make money off it i don't see why it doesn't come back around um i mean some of our funniest trades ever like grant a laugh there was a sad hamster on tiktok um and i was in it yeah and i was i was honestly you got attached to that alex you got oh i married that bag round trip did pretty much entirely but i'd bought this thing at like sub like maybe like 500k and i was saying to the lad this is the biggest meme on tiktok trust me everyone every kid knows this hammy meme it like pumped to like 78 mil all-time high circa like which is just ludicrous and someone's tweeting about it i was in this i was in this i was doing i was doing a victory laugh and you do the typical thing of well, why would I sell now?

33:02Because it's going to 700 mil. But I do think to round that point off, we will get back to that. And I think we can have both. I think we can have the big boys like Grand Sane, the Trad Fives, the Tempos, the Stripes coming online. And then that can still exist. Whereas I do think there are certain aspects and people within the industry that would like that to burn and die. And I'm certainly not one of them. Genie's out the bottle of that sort of stuff. I think back to what we were doing in our late teens. I was probably like pissed in a field somewhere. Kids are growing up now with financialized products all around them.

33:38Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised to see late teens have a phantom wallet and or like any of these new products that are coming online. I think it's just they are going to go through like the internet is more interwoven with finance and crypto and everything that comes with speculation now more than ever. And I still think we're at the very, very, very early innings of that. so as you say with gte or like noise is a good example that's another location on mega reeth like trade trends so if there's like a specific type of word phrase like just you know there's like hive mind words and phrases yeah for like like it's just it's absolutely insane or like if you look at what euphoria are doing where yeah basically options tap trading it looks like doodle jump fucking met some options trader and created an app do you know what i mean like yeah this is where it's going so like there is no kind of on and off switch with sectors of the industry it's headed in the direction that's going with the financial markets it's gonna be more in a one with that if anything it kind of crypto should just in like go into the background and just be a piece of middleware that everything else runs on top of but the downstream effect of that are you start to see apps like noise and gta and euphoria and whoever whoever else um shouldn't really know they're on crypto rails i think that's like i think that should have been the end goal all along i think that's a fair point i think part of the because the crypto like the element of everyone being online and and memes has not gone away like there's not like the actual fundamental thing that's happening around that like you said it's only getting higher like it's only getting bigger the fact that we have another meme this week that that's happening i think the product in meme coins might shift like we could have something which looks resembles more like prediction markets where people are betting on that sort of stuff or like can prove they were early to something like this i think that that may shift but i guess this is what i'm trying to get at is like i still think that as the money comes into this space that those sort of elements because also you can't compare those to trad fi you know like one of the great things about that bit of the space is there is no like fees to a meme coin it's just like internet culture but you can't be like oh why is this trading at 500x versus revolute um like it's it trades where it trades so yeah the market determines the value yeah yeah exactly so i think that bit of it I can still see being very strong and you're going to see some crazy you know I still think 100x gains is in that bit of the space but maybe it just won't be what people have been betting on for the most part that I've been in crypto which is L1s.

36:29And maybe it's not the apps themselves it's like the markets with inside them. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because every inherent new way to speculate, this is my point about Pump, like it's not meme coins it's the format in which they're launched being too one dimensional so the game gets figured out and edge erodes away to a point that nobody can make any profit and it's like a power law distribution of probably 10-15 accounts who make all the money on that from who's willing to first transaction every single token. There needs to be different ways and different games and different financial engineering to allow these speculative of assets to exist so like the way that i kind of think about it with what you just to kind of like piggyback off what you're saying is in the 2017 2018 days there's a load of white papers come out saying like or even just like articles saying defy will enable anyone around the world to get weather protection on their crops in a permissionless way or be able to buy insurance on xyz or be able to lend permissionlessly blah blah blah that was all kind of like it was it was there in a format it didn't necessarily work because like the infrastructure wasn't there to allow it but it now exists like like the idea stands on the shoulders of the infrastructure that came before and then like it now becomes a thing so with like the example the example which i think everyone tries to use is imagine you found a spotify artist when they had like five followers and like 5 ,000 players on a song and then they blow up to be the next whoever that is an inherent use case of memetic speculation on the internet that will manifest in a way we just don't know how what that platform is going to be yet and we don't know what the the asset of speculation is going to be we don't know how you're going to get exposure to that and we don't know who the hell is going to actually bring this thing online who's going to hit like mass market saturation with it it will happen but yeah this is this is our this is our job to figure out what it's going to be and try and get the edge before everyone else does yeah that's what i would say i would say that um when i was in trap 5 the the the realm of things that you could bet on or or invest in whatever was was quite it it's narrow in terms of the product so it's like equities bonds maybe you go into like mortgages but like after that it kind of trailed trailed away commodities let's say.

38:58Now I feel like the number of assets you are going to be able to speculate on is going to go up unbelievable amounts like we are what crypto it has enabled I think here is TrabFi to expand its field of horizon and we're going to see a ton more ways that you can make money they may not be in the same ways that they were last time. It's basically what I think we're getting at. I saw an interview with um the robin hood ceo who kind of went on um it was some sort of end of year presentation he was talking about very bullish on prediction markets but he was saying that that in some areas um you can bet on the weather now and we've seen big big invest big volumes go through that which is essentially a byproduct of like the insurance market so you could bet on like there's gonna be a hurricane for example in a certain different place this feels like again no one was doing this before.

39:51There was insurance bonds, this sort of stuff, but it does feel like it's going to now really grow. And the big, it's not just crypto firms. There's a lot of different traditional finance and various different industry firms who are looking at this and going like, right, I can build something here where people get to expand their field of investing, basically. yeah when you say that mando is uh is it parcel grant that comes to mind i don't even know how that's doing where it's like solana betting on like um it was like um you basically go long or short on certain jurisdictions to the housing market that's right yeah which i think like that in like to just to double click on what we're saying it's like that might have showed proof concept um maybe they used like some form of binary options actually allow people to actually go and do that but maybe like the final form of that looks like just pure tokenized equity of like specific real estate i know there's a lot of teams in the middle east trying to do this now and they're starting to make some serious serious serious headway so i wouldn't be surprised to see those like assets come online but um like with this like we've got an old friend in the industry called rob he used to be an old i think he's like a wheat commodities uh trader but you would actually have like large well large large large multinationals that relied on like wheat supply to for their businesses to fund then they would they would be buying like long dated futures just to protect us like an insurance hedge robin huder are basically saying we're going after that market with with a new format with prediction markets yeah because that that's that's where everything's heading and they're making it accessible to absolutely everyone i don't know are they going to build it themselves or are they going to integrate they've integrated Calci I think for the first bit of it and I think now they are largely doing it themselves.

41:42Let's see how it works under the hood just let us take a look and build it ourselves but yeah you're right like the product the people they seem to have found a product now with which they can also now financialize everything essentially and that means that you can go after huge bits of trading like particularly like the derivatives markets I think people think this industry could like 10x over the next year I mean these are the people building it but take it with a grain of salt and I think a lot of this will also the next stage of this will be around regulation to see which countries will allow this is this gambling is this not you just kind of know which countries are probably going to be regulation I hope for our benefit it is because it's gambling in the UK and we don't That would be great.

42:36Yeah. But yeah, it does feel like you can expand.