My Biggest Crypto F*ck Up

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0:54I'm not sure if I should be flattered or offended that I was asked to host this panel because the topic is my biggest crypto fuck up. and anyone who follows me knows that I have violated probably every one of the 10 commandments of crypto buck-ups that you could possibly have so I probably am sadly the right man for the job we've got an amazing panel uh today we've got OVOSF as an artist investor fuck render who's an artist and of course Jessica Walker now from Coin Bureau although it's you know I'm not used to introducing you as Coin Bureau so congratulations on that move really awesome and I think uh now we just have to dive in, unfortunately, and each one of us, I think, to start will share one of our biggest fuck-ups.

1:35Now, like I said, I've had so many, it's hard to know where to start. I was trying to kick through my brain as to the worst. Now, I can tell you that if you ask my wife, my biggest crypto fuck-up in history was definitely trading Doge through 2016, 17, and 18 and not holding it, because the few thousand dollars I made here and there on Doge, we did a calculation I think would have been worth roughly 70 million dollars at the top of doge uh and i did not capitalize on that so i i would say that that's uh hindsight is 2020 sort of fuck up but if we're getting really into the actual fuck ups it's something i've shared quite a few times obviously i was one of the elite predators on voyager i lost millions of dollars on that platform and i would say that buying into cefi hook line and sinker you know obviously platforming well spf that wasn't cefi But of course, Steve Ehrlich from Voyager and Machinsky from Celsius and being a true believer that what they were doing was good and, you know, to some degree promoting that to the audience and then losing so much myself was probably the biggest lesson that I've ever learned and clearly has pushed me even further towards self-custody, even though still the bulk of my assets were there.

2:43so I would say for me it's hard to point to anything other than losing that much money on those platforms I truly believed in is probably my biggest fuck up next we're going to go to Ovi OSF you get to now bear your heart I hope yours cost you a little less than mine well where do I start I definitely got a few of them I would say there's two that I'd like to highlight the first one probably just because of the monetary amount that was foregone which is not too dissimilar to yours, Scott. I actually, back when NFTs were a thing in 2021, I actually minted 150 Bored Apes just in a moment of, like, kind of being drunk, to be honest with you, and craziness.

3:28And I think they're, like, 0.08 ETH each, and, you know, after a day, and I was just, like, flipping stuff and creating stuff at the time, and after a day or two, I was like, oh, cool, I'll just, like, you know, these are up, like, 5x or whatever or 10x i just sell them and move on um and obviously they all went up like a thousand decks afterwards we did get back into the trade but i mean on this trade i left something like 30 or 40 million dollars on the table um not including all the airdrops and all that stuff you got afterwards so that was a pretty brutal one um that i still can't get my head around uh the second one like the monetary amount wasn't as much but this was something that i just did out of like complete complete stupidity um i was basically uh i don't know if you guys remember anchor protocol um which was uh part of the infamous uh leader terror ecosystem but um i used to have my a bunch of money in in in ust and the terror dollar and i used to stake it on anchor protocol which was paying 20 at the time um i actually took my money out before it blew up the mistake that i made is i was converting some ust into usdc it was actually quite a large amount you know into the seven figures and i was doing this conversion or like transaction on kucoin and i basically hit market order instead of limit order so the you know the ust versus usd usdc should have been the same price they're one-for-one uh both not that liquid yeah not very liquid though as i found out uh and i just hit bang market order and i was like fuck what did i do and i scrolled down so my last fill was at like um like 69 cents on the dollar or something like that and i was like who who is there like bidding that for that price but um i ended up losing something like 180 grand just from oh just from like a um market order instead of a limit order on that conversion It was a, yeah, I was very angry about that for a long while.

5:22And quickly, I just looked at the brief and realized that I was supposed to introduce everybody or that we were supposed to introduce ourselves in this process. So I'm just going to have you guys do that as we go around. Obviously, I'm Scott. I have a podcaster and whatever. That's it. That's me. But maybe, Ovi, you could just give us the quick background and then Jessica and Fred, when we come to you, give us the background before you're fucked up. yeah so i used to be a trader in in traditional financial markets for about 10 years i first bought bitcoin in 2021 um got into the nft game in march 21 as well from from a collecting and buying standpoint so um you know spent most of that time in 21 just degenning around in the crypto space kind of transformed into an artist at the end of that year as well so um that takes a lot of my time as well but yeah that's pretty much it and he's got a cool skateboard in the background so basically tony hawk go ahead fred you're up yeah i'm a fuck render i'm a artist digital artist um and i've been been doing art pretty much for 10 years now um and i joined the nft space i started with nfts of course as an artist that was very appealing for me uh but i I really fell in love with crypto and all that stuff in early 2020, late 2019, I would say, if I remember well.

6:41My memory is very bad. And yeah, my biggest fuck up, that's a, I have too many. I think my biggest, but actually I don't see it as a fuck up because I've learned so much from it, right? but I stored my seed praise on my fucking desktop like my my main desktop right so that was like like first few months of doing anything crypto I put my metamask seed praise there started to make pretty good sales on nifty gateway and all that stuff and I lost about half a million dollars on a phishing scan you know like as a artist like I always get like work inquiries and all stuff like they always send me like these pdfs and stuff like this and i opened that pdf and it was like a screensaver link um yeah manifold made a pretty good manifesto if you if you type fuck render hack uh you'll you'll you'll read all about it it's pretty pretty interesting and what we did uh to recover some of the nfts but we lost all the points and i remember i bought like i think had like 40 000 axes i don't know if you guys are family with axie infinity but so i bought i bought that was my first token i've ever bought was axie and it was like four cents and they took 40 000 axes and a few months after it was like 1.6 million dollars i was like but yeah but i bought i bought back a bunch of actually right after because to me like that was like that was what i was interested in crypto blockchain mechanism and i think xin td is still dope to my eyes but yeah so i i think that was my probably my biggest like the the other one is more like things i should have done or thing i shouldn't have done but yeah i think we all have those stories right if you're here long enough it's you can tell by listening to everybody that everybody's made these massive mistakes if it makes you feel any better apparently ftx and spf also got fished for a hundred million dollars on a bad Google link, and they kept their private seeds in plain text files on computers where everybody there could see.

8:53That came out today in the trial for anyone who hasn't paid attention. If you want to know just how incompetent and stupid these people were, then there's a little anecdote for you. Hey, everyone, we're going to take a quick break right now to hear a word from our partners. We'll be right back with more of the day's top analysis on the Real Vision Daily Briefing.

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10:13Jessica, you're up. I can't imagine you've ever made a mistake. No way. If you've not got any battle scars from crypto, then you've just not tested it out enough. So I would say from a kind of personal investing perspective, oh, let me do a little introduction, first of all. So previously, I've been a content creator in Quarix Bank, moved over into crypto, so had some time in some great establishments. CoinMarketCap, now currently the host of CoinBureau and also running up their event arm, so we have some exciting events. coming next year. When it comes to mistakes in the industry, Ovi, you said something pretty significant there, which was kind of you managed to take your money out before it blew up.

10:54And I cannot say that I was not lucky. November 2022, a pretty critical time. You mentioned the FTX implosion there. I was in Istanbul when the FTX implosion had started. I went over into Istanbul Blockchain Week, TRT World, which is the main Turkish broadcast station, reached out and said that they would like me to come on and talk about what was happening in the market. I went on to the station and gave them a little run through and during this live stream we were helping them compile a little script of the kind of Alameda FTX downpour and during that time I was so invested in giving the narration of what was going on in the market that I forgot to take 18 ETH off BlockFi.

11:37So that was a little bit of telling the masses to take their money off centralized exchanges and not doing the same myself. So always now stick with the banter of don't panic, but be proactive. Such a challenge though, because there comes a point where everybody has to get their money into cash, right? And so you need the centralized exchanges, even if you're really diehard about self-custody. I think that those challenges come around regardless. So I think we just shared some of our own biggest fuck-ups. I literally have a list of another 20 I could probably share off the top of my head, and I'm sure all of you do.

12:10But do you guys have any anecdotes of other people you know, other stories, maybe ones we haven't shared, but to help the audience understand the other potentials, attack vectors, mistakes that can be made that you've heard of that may be huge stories that we could share? One of mine was, I think so many of them are fishing links. I had a friend, he's a chiropractor and a doctor, but was very passionate about crypto and really understood self-custody, was very deep down the rabbit hole. And one day he just woke up at four o 'clock in the morning and for some reason he was in a telegram group and he thought it was the actual telegram group, but it was a mirror of the telegram group.

12:51And basically gave someone his private keys for an airdrop and they drained his wallet of a million dollars. You're talking about a guy who like was so cautious and really I think the lesson is it just takes one fuck up, right? I mean, you just catch you when you're tired and you think you're talking to someone who you're not. This program group had 20 ,000 people in it. It had an account for every one of the moderators of the actual group. It had a full fake website that was to the project that he was very passionate about. And he really thought he was talking to a friend and, you know, for some reason just thought, I'm going to give up my private keys so they can airdrop this to me because there was a complication.

13:27and lost a million bucks, you know, which he was intending to potentially retire and go travel the world. And, you know, I think we've all been there. So that's one for me. So I think the lesson there being just be exceptionally careful about who you're talking to or think you're talking to and what links you click. And never under any circumstances do you have to give someone your private keys literally ever, right? Ovi, you have any? Yeah, I had a good friend who, well, he made multiple mistakes. The first one was he kept a lot of money on Coinbase So pretty much all his crypto holdings were on Coinbase And the second mistake that he made was that his two-factor authentication was by phone text message So what happened was he got SIM swapped Someone actually called him up pretending to be his mobile service provider A few days before the hack happened And they said, hey, we can offer you a better deal, etc, etc Let me just take your details so he gave them his full name, date of birth, address, like everything.

14:28They were then able to call up the network provider and transfer his sim to a new sim, basically. They obviously scanned through everything that he had two-factor authentication on for phone text message and they got to his Coinbase. They were able to access that through the 2FA and basically just drain everything and take everything out of it. So I would say try not to i mean don't have all your crypto in one place try and split them into different places i think is a good um a good method so your attack but does only side to one thing um and the second thing i would say is like just don't use phone text messages for 2fa like either use a app on your phone or i use um i think called a yubikey which is like a physical hardware device and you literally have to like press it with your finger to authenticate things so you know it just makes it impossible to hack you unless someone's like there beside you physically so um yeah watch out for those i've been sim swapped has any of you been sim swapped i've been sim swapped never i didn't do anything wrong i didn't lose any money but i have been sim swapped fred go ahead um i don't have too many things with my friends i think i'm the one who really fucked up all the

15:43I have one friend who was like doing a DJ set on Decentraland like that's like early 2020 and yeah mid 2020 and he got into a fake Decentraland league and the way to log in was enter your seed phrase and he entered the seed phrase, got drained he didn't add too much but still was painful for him to lose what he had all of this for a DJ set on Decentraland. I think that's like, if I think about something my friends do, that's pretty, I feel grateful right now because my friends didn't fuck up too much. Yeah, that's good. Jessica? I think if we're on the topic of sim swapping and hacking, I'm here in Amsterdam now for Bitcoin Amsterdam.

16:33And one thing that is really prevalent from people that have been to a few conferences, They'll say, do not go on to the local Wi-Fi network at a crypto conference because you never know who will be able to infiltrate any of your laptops or your mobile phones and devices. And actually, for newcomers, if you are looking to go into the conference space, it happens to all of us. It's really an easy mistake to make. You might just forget at that moment in time. But just be very careful when it comes to logging into public networks where you are. I think that's one kind of key thing. I've heard a few horror stories.

17:04Yeah, the other thing at crypto conferences that I've heard horror stories about is that people will go advertising what looks like a new product and hand out QR codes and things like that all over the conference. And then you use your phone and you enter the QR code and in some way that gives them access. I think SIM swapping has to be one of the biggest ones now. And we've seen a ton of Frientech related SIM swap issues. We've seen a ton of people having SimSwap issues and then getting their Twitter taken over with big accounts. And then those Twitter accounts start tweeting out scams and people click on them.

17:38Metalawman is one of the guys that happened to. And I was talking to him today. He literally hasn't even gotten his Twitter back in like six months because it got suspended by the scammer and he's never been able to get his account back. But we've seen that with a ton of huge accounts. And I think a lot of that goes back to what Ovi sort of mentioned there is just never use your SMS as an authenticator. I'm almost convinced this is not financial advice. You're better off without one than even having SMS because of the ability of that to be exploited. When I was SIM swapped, I didn't really realize what was happening at first.

18:09I was sitting there, I saw my service go off. And then I started getting a bunch of reset emails, Coinbase and such. I didn't have any money on any of them. All of my money was at that time basically in self-custody. And also I always use a separate device for all my authentication. So if we're now moving on, I guess, to maybe giving some practical advice that people can do, never using SMS. And even if you use Google Authenticator or something like that, don't do it on the actual phone that you're using that somebody can theoretically take over or steal. I mean, for me, I shouldn't be probably sharing it, but it's a completely separate device.

18:41It's generally like in a safe, offsite. I'm pretty anal now about the way that I've done it because of sim swapping. But sim swapping for me was like the worst nightmare just for inconvenience and fear, Like, what are they going to go after next and rushing to change all your passwords and all those things? But luckily, because they weren't able to access any of that authentication, they ended up getting nothing from me. But if you're at all in crypto and you don't have to be a big name or a notable person, eventually they're going to try. Right. I mean, we know that we know that Ledger, like, you know, they're amazing.

19:15But all these companies, BlockFi, literally almost everybody has somehow had some sort of breach at some point where your data is likely in the dark web, even without a breach. And what Ovi described that, well, the SIM swap, I mean, that's very common. You can pay someone at T-Mobile or AT &T or Verizon. Literally, like there's people for like 100 bucks will SIM swap you who worked at that company because they're like, well, I just made a day's worth of wages. Or you get socially engineered in the way that he described. So I would say that keeping your authentication on a separate device and never using SMS is a really practical way.

19:49Do you guys have any other, like, really glaring advice, how to avoid the phishing links, these other mistakes that you've made? Anyone can jump in. I don't think we need to necessarily go around the horn. Yeah, I think I would definitely advocate having a hardware wallet, so, you know, either Ledger or Trezor or whatever. and not only that but i would advocate using a hot wallet for your day-to-day transactions whether you're like minting a new nft or like you know swapping something on chain whatever it is connecting your wallet that should all just be on a hot wallet which is basically empty like a burner wallet where there's nothing there so if you do click on a phishing link or you do mess up and we all have these um lapses in our concentration sometimes um then you just you know you're not losing you're not risking anything within that wallet itself and you should hold all your most valuable assets within your hardware wallet your ledger whatever it is and don't sign any transactions from that wallet right the only things you should ever have done from that wallet is having transferred in your assets and then transfer them out when you want to sell them but don't sign or give approvals or anything else to it there should only be an in and out wallet basically and that way if you do make a mistake if you do click on a phishing link or if you do accidentally give up your cphrase for your hard wallet whatever it was for your hot wallet whatever it is like there's no asset valuable assets in there for people to take and you've separated your assets and you have um your your safe stuff siloed somewhere else so um if you haven't constructed that system for yourself and i think a lot of people don't because they're quite lazy to do it it's like i just can't be bothered to set my ledger up and transfer things and i know it's like um a bit of a pain just please please please please do it because i've seen friends and people close to me be lazy and apathetic about doing that and eventually they end up making a mistake and then you lose everything and that's it yeah it's literally it's always i think even for the safest people it's that one mistake i mean wasn't it kevin rose or someone that got i mean some of the like names in the industry exactly who know better than literally anyone else have made the one mistake the one click the one time even that friend text scam recently i almost feel like i got a text message and just dismissively almost responded to it i mean it happens all the time.

21:54Jessica, any thoughts? No, I completely agree with you guys. And I think as well for a lot of people that are watching, the last 12 months have been a really strong narrative for take your money off centralized exchanges. And unfortunately, this needed to happen in the industry because self-custody is something which is so important. I think we forget in this decentralized world that we're in that actually the whole point of crypto is centralized points of failure that can be people that can be platforms the technology itself is not flawed but how you store them or how you activate them or who has kind of ownership of the platforms that you use they're the areas and points of failure so really just kind of make sure that you have full ownership of your funds and you just have to test it out for a lot of people self-pastity sounds terrifying i know when i tried to explain to my no-coil friends one of them picked up my Trezor wallet and was like, wait, so you actually have your wealth on this?

22:48And I'm like, you just have to start that process. You have to start, test it out, get familiar with it. Because once you do, you understand the importance before it's too late. You don't want to realize the importance of data security when you're too far down the line. And you have to explain to them that their wealth isn't actually on there, but it's actually just the keys that are, yeah, whatever. We're going to take another quick break to hear a word from our partners. We'll be right back with more of the day's top analysis on the Real Vision daily briefing.

23:21Fred, go ahead. Yeah, I think unplugging your oven, your fridge, your Wi-Fi, everything, leaving your house, not having any crypto is pretty safe. no I'll joke aside like for me like I think a security I don't know I say that in English but a vault like a security vault in a bank I think it's as much as I want to do like all crypto related and no banks but I do think having some stuff in banks putting your ledgers there it can be it can be pretty good if you have like a multi-sig in different banks that's personally what I think is the safest but yeah there's going to be they get smarter and smarter there's discord infiltration they go on discord for months and they just get friends with everyone you know like it's kind of like you don't trust anybody at this point for me I close all my DMs and even like even if I receive a DM from a friend I don't even click on anything I became super cautious but yeah it's hard to trust people especially after I got hacked to me it was like everybody's like dead to me like I don't click anything so yeah I think it's I think especially if you're self-custody I think you do need to be more cautious, which is why, yeah, yeah.

25:04Yeah, I think, Fred, I think your point about safe deposit boxes, that's what we call them every safety deposit box or safe deposit box. I think for anyone, once you go further down this rabbit hole and you do get hacked and all the things we've described, you probably go down the road of multisig, which is what I do with my Bitcoin. Certainly, you know, I've used Casa multisig for years, geographically dispersing it. It sounds so insane, but you really do get to the point where you see that as compelling. But Ovi, I loved what you said sort of about having hot wallets and cold wallets. And I know Ledger is obviously one of the presenters here.

25:34Ledger stacks. For anyone who's tried it, it's from the guy who literally invented the iPod. And they literally stack together so that you can have the ones that you kind of put in your safe up to the wallet that you might carry around to literally show off your cool NFT or something. or to keep 500 bucks on there if you want to transact in real time. I think they've created a really sort of novel and slick solution that allows you to self-custody all the way from like the wallet you're using at the store down to your million dollars in Bitcoin that you never want to touch and you're planning to hand off to your kids.

26:11And so I think for people to check out solutions like that, really dig down into self-custody, maybe there's a good time for us to have a conversation about self-custody. Jessica, like you said, you know, that's the point of this, whatever. But then you get to the point where you become your single point of failure. And there's a whole laundry list of things that you need to be able to do so that you don't fall on your head or, you know, lose your private keys. I interviewed Pascal from Ledger and he told me a story about losing his private keys that he had hidden too well from himself. And this is the CEO of Ledger, right?

26:45On a podcast, he told me this. so like again even the most sophisticated people you can get there's a fine line i think between like securing your stuff and getting too clever even for you yeah oh 100 and this also goes back to the sim swapping topic of kind of throwing your ego out the door this can happen to anyone if metallic can get sim swaps then anyone is at risk no one is kind of safe from this i do think though when it comes to self-custody you have to find a way that works for you so as obi made a good point and you kind of highlighted it you know multiple hot and cold wallets that can have kind of an order of priority so you can make sure that you have the easier way to navigate in and out of this ecosystem because there is no kind of what you don't just have one bank account so you have to be able to navigate um in different solutions that are going on um and i i think as well the products are getting so much better.

27:42We have a lot of these kind of people that have been in crypto since 2016, 2017, and the products were difficult. The UX and UI was not easy. And as you've mentioned now, kind of the leading storage wallets in the industry are definitely getting more and more user-friendly. Yeah, I agree. Fred, Obi, you guys have any really practical advice for once you go that sort of self-custody rabbit hole, huge glaring mistake that you might make. Like I said, I mean, hiding your private keys too securely for you to even find is one of the huge ones that I've heard so many times, right? I actually met someone once who, I think he was like one of the original Ethereum devs or something, so he probably had tons of ETH.

28:26And he was like, he reaches over to me and shows me his hand, he's like, feel my hand over here. So I feel it and there's this hard like, chip in his hand he says my c phrase is like in on this chip in my hand uh way and then why would he tell you seems like you're gonna go far enough to do that you would never tell anybody that the chip is in your hand lest you find yourself with no hand well so he then he then says it's actually a fake c phrase and he's memorized the real one but if he ever gets like if he ever gets like kidnapped or something he's like i'll just use this one it has like i don't know like 10 euthanas something like that and then the real one he's like that you memorized but yeah that was a honestly even memorizing feels dangerous dude i don't i can't remember my kids birthdays but i don't want to know my c phrase by by art like it's like there's no way like yeah i've memorized mine deniability yeah i've memorized three different c phrases and there's no other record of it other than in my head so yeah that is safe man yeah yeah you're the exception not the rule here I don't recommend that hopefully I don't get mentally I would say write it down and put it in a safe deposit box or write it down in three pieces and put them in three safe deposit boxes if you want to get really cute or use metal I think is a pretty novel approach there's a lot of ways to do it hey guys I have to ask you though do you think we're encouraging people here or we're scaring the shit out of them or do you think that we should scare them so that they'll take it very seriously I think you gotta feel scared because otherwise you won't you won't make the change right like if you don't feel worried you're just gonna be like ah whatever it'll never happen to me and until it's too late so yeah like everyone should feel very scared right now this could happen to you but it's also the current state of the reality of crypto right now and in our age right like it's it's what we have to deal with like it's not like in 10 years these issues will be nothing like they won't they won't exist or they'll be worse we don't know but i feel like this is something that needs we need to educate people because we don't like i personally don't want anyone that i know get the same act that i get you know so that's why the the minute i got act i i was really public about it even even though i got super bashed people were taking time i was fucking stupid i am i know it so i don't need anyone else to tell me but at least i'm warning people that will do the same mistake that i did and it was important to me to be very transparent and public because that's how you make that space grow and that's how you make people safe basically like people learn from your experience and it was really important yeah in 10 years time oh sorry to interrupt in 10 years time self-custody is going to be such a no-brainer and people will be looking at us like no way so in the early days of crypto because this is the early days still guys i think they'll be like you guys use centralized lending platforms where there was some dude CEO and you trusted to try and earn 7 % APY, they'll view that as madness and they'll view self-custody as the absolute no-brainer, common sense.

31:29Of course, you'd use that. You'd be stupid not to. That's kind of, if I have a crystal ball, this is what I'm expecting from the next 10 years of crypto, which is how it should be. This was the intention all along, right? I agree. I'm 46 years old. I did my college applications on a typewriter. Not even kidding. So if I can look back at what's happened in the last 26, 28 years of my life, I can't even imagine the exponential growth of this space, how easy all this will become. But to your point, how laughable it's going to be. Ovi, you and I kind of pointed out really quick, our first mistakes were like what we would, I guess, view as trades where we could have made a shit ton more money.

32:09Right? I want to tell people, though, that those aren't really mistakes. We look back at those, I think, in hindsight, it's sort of laughable at what could have been. But if you're going to trade or invest in this market, that's the biggest, I would say, pitfall you can mentally take, is looking back and seeing what could have happened. I mean, both of us are sort of laughing and begrudging these things, but we actually made money on what would have been viewed as good trades at the time. right and and nowhere in my mind did i ever uh can i blame myself for not knowing that doge was going to go to 75 cents when doge was literally like a fraction of a penny and was the most fun cycle to trade over all those years and you certainly could have couldn't have known that minting 150 board eggs while you were drunk that that was going to be the one project that made it to those prices right so i think just mentally people should understand we're kind of kidding you know you you look back and you kick yourself but like hindsight is 2020 and nobody has a crystal ball when it comes to trading the other mistakes were wholly avoidable yeah for all of us so this will go around the horn any last thoughts and then i think we've done a great job here wrapping up ov any final thoughts here for for the audience yeah i hope i hope you didn't scare anyone too much but i think um you know it's important to understand what you're dealing with here and you're dealing with your own money at the end of the day it's your own savings it's your own investment so you should care about it as much as you care about things like your house or you know your prized possessions and this is the same thing so i'd highly recommend educating yourself and um you know using all the tools and resources that are out there available to you like being here is a great first start anyway as it is um and just you know just look after your crypto like it's like a brand shining new car that you just bought um or you know something so prized and dear to you because that's what it should be that's what it should feel like and that way you will take the right precautions um and take the the appropriate care to make sure you don't get tripped up yeah especially imagine if you bought that shiny new car and it didn't have insurance treat it like that go ahead friend yeah i mean i think i think it's all about like not blaming yourself too like if you make mistakes like a lot of people like a lot of my friends who've made like these kind of fishing mistakes they just left that space right um i think there's so much room for improvement and growth so it's like don't beat yourself if you make stupid mistakes yeah totally agree with that jessica uh and we say all the time in crypto don't trust verify but the platforms that you use the links you click on the people that you work with make sure that you're not working for an organization that has too much of a centralized point of failure any time that it can be as decentralized as agnostic and you can verify as much as possible make sure you do so because it will come back to reward you.

34:52I 100 % agree. I think the major takeaways here, just think three times before you do anything in this space. Don't click on any links under any circumstances. Make sure that you've secured your seed phrases. Be really careful about your authenticators and don't beat yourself up too bad if you make a profitable trade. You'll be worth tens of millions of dollars in the future. Guys, I think we did an amazing job. Always humbling, but fun to share our biggest fuck-ups, I think. And Fred, just like you said, it's kind of embarrassing, and it's not the most comfortable thing, especially when it's in real time.

35:27But think about the thousands of people you've probably helped who saw what you were going through and didn't make the same mistake. So I think that's all we got for you guys. Thank you for being a part here. Thank you for having all of us, obviously, be a part of the Festival of Learning here. I think it's amazing what Real Vision does is doing here. And of course, like I said, check out that Ledger Stacks. It's a pretty awesome product, and I know that they're the sponsor here. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much. Nice for having us. Join over 5 ,000 attendees for the largest AI event in Asia, Super AI in Singapore, June 5th and 6th, 2024.

36:01Edward Snowden, Benedict Evans, Balaji Srinivasan, and over 150 others will hit the stage, joining the industry's most influential to explore and unveil the next wave of transformative AI technologies. Singapore will become a vibrant AI hub for a full week from June 3rd to the 9th, with over 150 side events that will make for unparalleled networking opportunities. Visit superai.com for 20 % off tickets with the code REALVISION. Look for the link in the description.

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