SEC Launches "Project Crypto" — Is This Everything We've Wanted? | Mando, Gmoney & Spencer | Rekt Vision

27:10Because this has been a very good period here for ETH. A lot of the ETH treasury companies coming in, it feels like change of leadership at the foundation. It just feels like there's a lot of good momentum around it. Yeah, listen, I think, you know, for better or worse, I've been an ETH bull for a really long time, even as things looked really bad for us, as little as like five weeks ago. But I'll say this, it's like, I think personally, and I think we've kind of seen this in crypto, So I think as soon as ETH started to outperform and started to catch a bid, then you start seeing, you know, altcoin season or the beginnings of that begin to start.

27:46And so I do think that people probably are fundamentally underweight on how important ETH is to the broader ecosystem of, you know, how much actual innovation came out of the ETH ecosystem last cycle and how much stuff, you know, and really cool experiments actually happen on there. And that once you start getting a bid, what that leads to for the broader ecosystem. So I'd say over the last couple of months, I've had the opportunity to listen to Joe to Joe Lubin talk in some fireside chats and kind of give his opinion on, you know, where he thinks the broader ecosystem goes from here and how important it is overall to, you know, creating trusted systems worldwide that the incredibly neutral systems that people can build on.

28:30And I do think that between, you know, guys like Joe Lubin, Andrew Keyes, Tom Lee, they've been able to kind of sit there and obviously buy, come in and buy a lot of ETH and create that bid. But then also there, those are guys that like, I pretty much, I trust in their decision making more so than maybe like other vehicles that are coming to market. And I'll give Tom Lee credit where credit's due is, I think it was like three weeks ago or four weeks ago when he came up with his thesis on, if you're bullish on stable coins, just get long ETH. And that was probably one of the best two or three minutes I've seen in terms of distilling a thesis so clearly and so eloquently that people understood it.

29:20And obviously putting his money where his mouth is, along with those other guys. And it just makes me so bullish on the ecosystem, knowing that, you know, I think because there was regulatory unclarity up until recently, I think a lot of this, you know, was stuff that couldn't necessarily be talked about because you had the SEC taking action, you know, is it the security? Is it not? All these enforcement actions happening that now seems to be in the rear view mirror and really allows these leaders like Joe and Andrew and Tom to really, you know, not only just talk about it in a more public manner, but then become distilling that gospel out to the masses.

30:02So overall, like, I came out very bullish. I've been, you know, anytime I listen to Joe talk, I get more bullish coming out of it, because it's like, oh, wow, there is a vision here. And there is, you know, this grandiose infrastructure that's that's being built. And it makes me just bullish, bullish on the ecosystem, which in turn makes me even more bullish on crypto in general. Yeah. Yeah. I've called it the best marketing makeover of this cycle to kind of, you know, Vitalik, although is a complete genius, I think is, is less commercial was focused potentially on different use cases for the blockchain.

30:41And now you've got these, these more wall street facing entities and people leading kind of the marketing charge this is a great website by the way strategic uh eth reserve dot xyz it's a new website which is kind of popped up in the last month or so shows various different things but this just shows you where all these um eth treasuries are coming in here we have bitmine which is the tom lee vehicle we have sharplink which is the one run by joe lubin there's this new one called the ether machine which i hadn't even heard of two weeks ago and is now the third biggest holder of ETH all three of these are higher than the ETH foundation now in terms of that ownership so uh the ether machine that is Andrew Keyes's vehicle who's also um very early on at ConsenSys I personally love I tweeted about this I think a week or two ago I love the name like I it gives me um I don't know if you guys ever saw Arnold Schwarzenegger uh when when he was being interviewed when he was really young about like working out and he's like I love the pump and it's like i'm coming and like that to me as i was like machine that's like that's where i want to put my money machine yeah apparently i've just the producer has told me that the the the co-founder andrew keys is coming on real vision next week so um you can go check it out next week uh andrew keys is going to be on real vision maybe go check that i'm sure it's to premium subscribers but yeah this this just puts into perspective how how quick this has been none of these companies were doing this what two months ago this is all just happened out of nowhere um What do you think of all this, Spencer?

32:14I think that what you've got to understand is institutional buyability. I think it's very clear that Bitcoin is buyable. You don't need to think too hard to make a thesis on buying Bitcoin. I think there's not a lot of assets that really are ready for prime time in this way in this industry. ETH is the obvious next one after Bitcoin. There's a real ecosystem. As we've said, it really benefits from this massive stablecoin adoption. there's all these silly numbers you can draw about 10 years out. How many stable coins do you think? Like what percent of the U.S. economy is in stable coins, right?

32:47If you're predicting any reasonable number, like there's just a lot going on, right? And ETH is clearly, as you said, a beneficiary of that narrative. It really felt dead from a crypto native context, but from an institutional viability, like it is number two to Bitcoin, and I don't think it's particularly close, right? I think the natural question is, all right, where are we in this ETH trade? And like, is there a number three, right? And in my mind, like Solana is number three in terms of institutional buyability. And it's not particularly close to who's number four, right? We've only seen the only ones we've seen in treasury companies.

33:21We've seen people like start to do some stuff with Solana. We've seen some people do some stuff with hype. In my mind, hype is orders of magnitude lower a peg in terms of institutional buyability than Solana is for a whole number of reasons. But largely because it's, you know, a protocol. It's relatively new. it has a lot of execution risk whereas an ecosystem and infra like it's just it's a lot less similar to Bitcoin and Ethereum than Solana is I don't think SWE is that close I think AVAX We had SWE and BNB this week What? We had SWE and BNB this week I think SWE and Binance Coin but I agree with you wholeheartedly I think it's Solana would be the next one Right and so I think the question in my mind is and you know I'm someone who like I almost gave up on Ethereum at one point right like it looks really really bad during this pullback from Liberation Day.

34:09And it feels really back. It feels like, oh my God, they're actually going to send it to 10K. It feels like that right now. Will that actually happen? I don't know. But that's definitely the feeling. And I think Solana looks more defensive than it's looked in a while. But I also think it has a more actively managed foundation. So maybe that's a good position for them to play from. And so what I'm looking at right now is clearly there's real meaningful ETH adoption happening. Some of these treasury codes are a little scary overall. just because of how they're kind of coming out of the woodworks and doing this.

34:40But this is really, truly a thing. I think this is a lot of actually what we saw in terms of like the CryptoPunk wave right now is people saying, well, these ETH treasury codes might go out and buy CryptoPunks. And like that's part of that ETH adoption narrative. And so maybe CryptoPunks is an institutionally viable asset, right? But I think like if you think about who can buy at real size, a lot of NFTs are hard to buy at that size because the market cap just isn't high enough, right? Whereas what are the assets in crypto with high enough market caps that have been allowing for long enough? It's like, clearly Bitcoin is number one by a lot.

35:14Clearly ETH is number two by a lot. And clearly Solana is number three by a lot. And then we have these sort of peripheral things that are looking to claw their way into this narrative. But that's at least how I'm thinking about it. And I think everything that we're seeing happen to ETH, I believe strongly happens to Solana over some reasonable time period. assuming that not everything goes to shit for some reason. I agree with you. And I think I'm also very, very bullish on Solana's use case. Obviously, it feels like it's a chain really for, which is dominated payments and uses for various different bits of crypto.

35:50But it just feels like each time you've got to respect it. Like it's when this happened to Bitcoin, Bitcoin dominance just went to the moon. And you've just got to, I mean, ETH dominance since this has started, it's gone from about seven to 12. And this feels like it's just begun. I do think Solana will have this when the ETFs start to pick up pace and, you know, trap five positions themselves. And maybe you get a few different vehicles like this come through, but it may be now more of a next year trade. I don't know if like there's enough behind it. Like it feels like with ETH, there are some, I mean, there is Sol Strategies.

36:20There's a couple of other pretty large Solana treasury companies, at least with backing, which is relatively large, but it doesn't feel as deep as this. I think there's going to be a moment here where a Kingmaker trade in the next 18 months, I think, is you pick the moment where you rotate your ETH bag to Solana. If you pick that moment right, it's a Kingmaker trade because it's ETH up 100 % into Solana about to rip 300%. That feels like the Kingmaker trade if it's timed right. The question is when you time it. If this was the top of ETH, that's not a trade, right? It's like ETH needs to rip to 10K and then stabilize.

37:03And Bitcoin also can't rip to 200K because if Bitcoin rips, it's the elephant in the room and suddenly all attention shifts. What do you think, G-Money? There's a part of the ETH community that just thinks Solana's never coming back. They've now wrestled it back and they're going to push on from here. Yeah, so I'm, I mean, I firmly believe you should, like living in a world of absolutes, Like you should never be a maxi in anything. I will say I'm not like an ETH maxi per se, because I'm, you know, fully cognizant of the fact that other things could come along after the fact. But I am like obviously super bullish on ETH.

37:40And I do say I do think that there's a world where like, you know, there's going to be we're going to live in a multi-chain world where whatever, five, 10 years from now and hopefully sooner, all of that is abstracted away. And because at the end of the day, like as a user, do we know like, you know, when we send an email, like what protocol we use? And then when we go on the Internet and browse a website, what protocol? It doesn't matter. Right. They are all interconnected and they work with each other. And we have our front end UIs. And I think it's going to be very much very similar. And I just I always laugh at tribalism within crypto.

38:15Right. Like, I just think it doesn't it doesn't make sense. But I also understand why it exists. Right. because people are like, well, I want my bags to go faster, my bags to outperform here. And even sometimes when I see people compare, let's say like ETH and Sol or ETH and BTC and like rotating and whatnot. And I'm just like, I think, okay, if you're a very, very active trader, for sure. I mean, I think those things are things you focus on. But then like a way to combat that is just diversity, right? Diversification is like, hey, I'm going to put a percentage of my portfolio in this. I'm going to put a percentage of my portfolio in that.

38:48sometimes one will outperform the other, but on a risk adjusted basis, owning these assets together will outperform most. And so that's usually how I take a look at capital allocation on a personal basis. And I'm not necessarily sitting there being like, oh, well, ETH is underperforming or outperforming for the last 30 days. And then thinking that you're going to catch tops and bottoms, trying to catch relative outperformance. At the end of the day, ours will outperform inflation, right? And like the devaluization of fiat currency, right? And I think just holding any of, you know, these top three tokens that we're talking about, you're going to massively outperform most, right?

39:29Especially where, you know, I think most of the people probably listen to this podcast and especially I think us three on here, like, I mean, I still have a significant portion of my net worth in crypto, you know? And so, you know, I think I'll be fine whether I choose ETH, Sol, or BTC? So this is one of the questions I posed before the show. And you are known for your, you know, your, your crypto punk thesis. You just said diversities, you know, diversification is good in your portfolio, but Bitcoin, ETH, or PUNX, which, which of those are you picking for the next 24 months or maybe 12 months?

40:06Cause it feels like PUNX right now, there's a lot of people coming in and being like, well, if I want to own ETH, PUNX is levity, you know and it has been going up as ether's been going up it's got that veblin good style coming back to it you know you're like you want to make sure you own one as if it goes to 10k because everyone will will remember um arthur hayes coming in and sweeping then we've seen huge sweeps of expensive punks like hoodie punks um is this is this the time where where punks breaks through the all-time high was that 450k yeah do you think do you think it just matches ether from here so i i think it's funny because as long as i've been in especially crypto punks uh this conversation has always happened i'll and i'll never forget the first time i bought a crypto punk i bought a zombie eth was trading at around 525 550 so that's a subtle flex for anyone who doesn't know um uh crypto punks uh that's that is a subtle flex to buy a zombie but we can continue the story so at the time i think the zombie was around twenty thousand dollars so i bought i bought the zombie.

41:11And I specifically remember it was sold to me by Nate Alex. And in like the negotiation process, he was like, well, you know, I think like ETH is going to go up. So like, I want to sell this, you know, so I can capture the upside in ETH. And then because there were a lot of guys that were trading around CryptoPunks pretty actively for a number of years, and they were kind of like market making, you know, buy low, sell high and whatnot. And so my thesis always was, if I think ETH is going to outperform, I want to own ETH-denominated assets. Very similar to when the stock market outperforms, you want to be selling, you want to own expensive cars, cigars, wines, expensive real estate, all these things.

41:52Because when you have that wealth effect, people want to display that in some way, shape, or form, whether it's with a watch or one of those high-value goods that I just mentioned. And so I was always super bullish on it. And I think this whole outperformance, underperformance that people talk about is like, well, if ETH is at 10K, then the punk floor will go down. Right. And so I firmly disagree with that because I think if ETH is at 10K, you as an owner of ETH assets, you will feel wealthier. So you'll be willing to splurge more. And, you know, there's a very limited number. There's only 10 ,000 crypto funks, right?

42:28They're extremely rare assets. When you think about, you know, the global basis of everything. And, and so I'm, I, you know, gun to my head, 24 months, I, you know, I have a lot of punks. I still hold a lot of punks. I'm not looking to sell any, anytime soon. I'm super bullish on them as a reflexive asset, not just for ETH, but just as crypto in general. And I think we're going to start seeing like, and even so over the last, definitely over the last two weeks, I'd say. But the CryptoPunk floor has been above one Bitcoin for a minute. And I think it was briefly below there for a couple of months in the last couple of years.

43:11But I think we're going to see it as we go higher if you expect CryptoPunks to go higher. Well, I think, yeah, the Punks floor is$190 ,000 right now versus obviously Bitcoin floor about$115 ,000. And just to give a bit of context to the viewers here, Spencer did one of the best trades, I think, of the cycle here in buying Moonbirds, which has been one of the NFT collections which has done best over the last couple of months. So you're probably one of the best people to pitch NFTs here. We'll get your thoughts on Punks too, and then maybe get into what you've got going on with Moonbirds and why now's the time for them.

43:46Yeah, so I think it's very simple what's happening right now. And I think this is my thesis on what's driving the CryptoPunks stuff today. I think there's the overall crypto fund thesis and there's the today thesis. And what I see happening right now is you look at these treasury codes for ETH. This is a lot of what's driving Ethereum adoption overall today.

44:11And they are pushing ETH price up, up, up, up. But ETH is a$400 billion asset, right? If those treasury codes, one of the things that they're doing is competing with each other, right? How do you differentiate? How do you beat ETH yield? right? One of the ways that you can do that is by like accumulating NFTs. Well, not saying that's the correct answer or the wrong answer, but it's one way to differentiate yourself from the other players. There's that long list of ETH, treasury, co's, public companies, etc. Now the public company bid, CryptoPunks, even at$200 ,000 a piece, is a market cap of like$2 billion, right?

44:46$2 billion, not$400 billion like ETH, right? We're talking about all these other assets like Bitcoin, right? You know, ETH, even Solana, like these are like hundreds of billions of trillions of dollars assets. This is like watching the effect of the institutional bid on them is very substantial. If the institutional bid before going to other altcoins goes to NFTs, specifically if the treasury companies begin themselves picking up CryptoPunks, for example, it does not take a lot of those and does not take a relatively large amount of capital to move the market cap of CryptoPunks incredibly substantially, right?

45:21We have seen the effect of the institutional bid on$100 billion asset, and it went to$400 billion, right? That's sort of the ETH story. We have not really seen the effect of the institutional bid on a$2 billion asset and where that takes it. And if it takes it to$410 billion, then I think you start to say, well, maybe NFTs are a better paired like ecosystem play within these treasury codes and like maybe nfts leapfrog the line in terms of getting onto the public markets against some of the other assets that you might think might happen sooner right that's i think the the current like super bowl thesis on nfts is like these public treasury codes that are doing so well on eeth begin expanding the ecosystem and the first thing they do is buy a crypto punk and then the question is what's the next thing they do right do they expand that strategy and do they continue going lower and lower and does the expectancy of maybe i could be in one of them uh benefit these products most fundamentally yeah if a punk treasury company does i mean we've already started to see this pengu has got a has got potentially an nft etf coming out but not a treasury company i think a punk's treasury company if that this is the talk of NFTs right now, right?

46:38And it doesn't need to be a Punks only treasury company. That's, I think, a really important part is I think it's most likely going to be an Ethereum treasury company that also has Punks, right? And so what's that ratio? Like, I'm not 100 % sure, but even if it's 10, 15, 20, 30 % that is allocated outside of, that is like Ethereum and Ethereum beta and 20, 30 % is the beta, right? That's all it takes. You only need a small amount of beta to out, as long as your beta outperforms to outperform someone who's just alpha right and that's the competitive landscape for these basically undifferentiated products which are treasury codes yeah i and i will say we've already started to see that right uh that uh gsq holdings bought a crypto punk ape last week right they bought lesner's ape so we we already see that some of them are starting to differentiate that i actually just shared with you amando their um twitter handle and they bought the ape, they made it their profile picture.

47:33And I think to Spencer's point, we're going to see a lot of these companies be like, all right, well, where can we generate more yield? Where can we increase our effective ETH per share? And I think a great way to do that is probably through these high value NFTs that are relatively liquid, that have established themselves. You're not going to see NFT mints that are happening next week and then being added to these treasury codes. you're going to have to see it's going to be these these long-standing communities that have an active let's say a pretty active market around them and and that's probably where they're first going to start bidding well and i think a really important part of that is going to be like like at the most fundamental level crypto is often driven by where its inflows are and historically inflows have been inflows to on-chain in or inflows to exchanges those are the two types of inflows that exist, right?

48:27And a lot of it was like exchanges are aggressively spending, they're growing. The most marketing spend in all of crypto used to come from exchanges kind of acquiring users, right? What we don't see this cycle is really exchange-driven user-based growth and liquidity growth in crypto. What we do see this cycle is public company-driven, like Wall Street marketing engine-driven growth of crypto. This is why these inflows to ETFs matters is why these treasury codes matter. And this is why like, you know, I think if you think of NFTs as a platform, like one of the things that the platform matters for right now is what is your stance on this public markets thing?

49:03Because this is where all the capital and crypto is coming from right now. And it's a very dramatic and paradigmatic shift from a few years ago when, you know, Wall Street was very anti-crypto. The government was very anti-crypto and this was almost unimaginable. And now, well, they're the ones bringing all the money in. So they're sort of the ones controlling the narrative. And if they're picking, you know, as you said, Game square right with the crypto puns i think it's a big part of the overall narrative for all assets right now in crypto is how do you play this particular thing that's happening look guys if i if i was to pick two people that could be up there for being the uh the tom lee or joe lubin of an nft treasury company you guys would both be up there uh you got no one's reached out i mean spencer you kind of you did this if you hadn't have so much going on you kind of had an nft focused fund uh before it was cool potentially um i actually want to get to actually just focus in on what you're up to at the moment which is with with moonberge which um was obviously a project known uh more infamously in more recent times um as as kind of a project we didn't really live up to expectations was a project originally launched by kevin rose you came in and bought the ip off of um yuga labs right who had originally bought the uh ip off kevin rose and have turned well at least turned around the full price you've integrated with some of your the trading card company that you'd also helped um create i think if the viewers would really be interested to hear like what what are you doing with moonbirds at the moment yeah i mean we're doing a lot of stuff right i think like as you mentioned like like it just seemed like there was this opportunity for NFTs to come back and also for like, you know, what Moonbirds was is very interesting, right?

50:47It's a company with a lot of history, right? An all-time high floor price of 40 ETH. I think there's 350 ,000 ETH lifetime trading volume on the main collection. That's over a billion dollars, right? Like that's a very substantial thing to exist. And, you know, it's gone through this very storied history, but so has all of crypto, right? And so we looked at this, we were like, all right like you know if this is what's on the horizon and we think and the thing that we think is going to play out is the thing that plays out then like moonbirds makes a lot of sense for for us to pick up and run with as sort of our horse into this right um i think you know what we needed to do in the beginning was reactivate the initial community what we needed to do then is sort of build internally how do we grow it as an ip as a resource as as something that is meaningful to the industry like one of the things that we look at like you know floor price goes up to goes down markets do market thing, but like, what is relative volume on on birds, right?

51:43And volume on the words has been quite high, we've been number one in volume and NFTS many of the days. But even in days, we're not we're still in top five, right? And like, it's a meaningful part of the discussion, right? And so part of this bet overall is what is the value to being a meaningful part of this discussion, and also having a lot of the bullets ready to fire a lot of the things that like, you know, maybe some of the other projects have made certain moves that create liabilities in the bear market that we just didn't make, right? We're taking on this project that both has history, but like we're hard restarting it, right?

52:16Like we're not focused on what was in the past. And so it doesn't have a lot of the same kind of liabilities that some other projects have. And we get to run a 2020, we got to run Moonbirds in 2025, like it's a 2025 project, which is very different than how you would run, right? Like you think of something like a Yuga Labs, you know, had has made commitments to a metaverse and they had a DAO, right? Those were the things that made sense at that time in 2021. But in 2025, you don't see people launching metaverses, you don't see people launching DAOs, right? They just undaubed their DAO. I think that made a lot of sense, right?

52:50I think it was less controversial than maybe people expect it to be. but like the beauty of Moonbirds right now is that we get to build it into like something that just makes sense and gets to be at, you know part of these meaningful conversations that are really important inflection point overall for adoption, right? Like, you know, I come from this world of like you know, when we venture back and we invest in companies like we're hyper focused on like taking them from$10 million companies to billion dollar companies, right? Above that, we have less experience. You know, like I tell people when they hit a billion dollars on their token like I'm not the first phone call you should make when you're in trouble.

53:23before that that's fine um but like this is where like you know we we wanted to stay take a step back and like really do it ourselves and so that's why for moonbirds it's like how do we pick up a company that's in the range that we're comfortable with and try and take it to the range that we've not done before and like that's kind of where where we really think about moonbirds from from a holistic level um from a practical and application standpoint like right now is a lot about ip growth and like how do we get more information and distribution and just be more relevant in a time when being relevant in nfts is very valuable um you're right like right now i've said it before but if you can own an nft brand without the baggage right now there's a lot of things you can do there's a lot of things you can do suddenly with with the tone coming out of um the us it feels as though this is the the time you could do things that in 2021 would have required like an offshore foundation like a dow like something to kind of push it through and now it feels like yeah it's a good time to look at some of these i i reckon and the irony is a lot of them are are going the other way and like shutting down um well it's like that was a great if you're in this moment not winning then like there is no better moment right and so like i think a lot of people are like all right if we're not winning nfts are winning really hard if we're an nft product and we're not winning in this moment like it's time to find new leadership or time to do something like nft companies one of the most interesting about nfts is like Like while they are shutting down, I expect that we'll see a lot more M &A in the NFT space like over the next six months.

54:52Like we, I'm glad we did it when we did because it was probably much cheaper than doing it now. But I think that like, you know, if this continues the way it's looking, like I would not be surprised if other projects also get acquired. I think projects with a fungible token market are a lot harder to acquire than those without. And I think that's a really key part of kind of the matrix of things here because it's the projects that have fundable tokens in market that aren't doing well, that have the hardest path forward. Yeah, cool cats. Who's going to buy that? It feels like we're in that sort of market.

55:28Right, we'll get to the... We've only got five minutes left here, guys. I think we've gone through a ton of different topics from macro, crypto, now NFTs. But we'll get some questions from the viewers now. I just want to again shout out our affiliate partner Arch Public. Obviously, they've been with us for a number of months now. Feels like we're in a choppy market. Go check out their algos. I'm sure they've been trading very, very well for the last, well, the last month, really, particularly on Bitcoin. You can register for free at realvision.com forward slash arch. Actually, there are a couple of questions here on Moonbirds, but I feel like you've answered a large amount of those.

56:06We'll go to the next question, which was, may I ask for your views on Besant's statements? We are exploring new possibilities in decentralized computing and digital payments to unlock the potential of blockchain technology. Which companies or coins might benefit from this? So which coins or companies might benefit from a shift from the U.S. government to decentralized computing and digital payments? I'm not really too sure on that one. I feel like there are a few of these decentralized compute coins on Solana, but I don't know if I'd go and buy some of those digital payments. I feel like this is more just a question about stable coins.

56:47Is there anything that jumped out to either of you guys on decentralized computing digital payments? People have talked about Tau. Oh, you're big in Tau, aren't you, G-Money? Why don't you talk about Tau for a little bit? Yeah, so my first thought on Decent... And I think you are too, Mando, right? Are you still in? I have been in the past. I'm not as big anymore. Definitely not as big anymore. But there was a period where I was a big Tau guy. Well, so I'd love to hear why you pared back. But yeah, I mean, I think when I hear decentralized compute, I immediately think of Tau. And I think it's interesting because I think about it a lot.

57:19It's like, why has it been underperforming for the last couple of months? And I think part of it is probably their tokenomic structure of how they're set up, which I think works long term. But I think in a world where a lot of startups will set up some sort of pontification of their tokenomic structure so that number goes up very fast. That's, you know, it's probably one of those slower horses where people are going to wait. But I do think that the ecosystem that's being built around Tau in general is pretty cool. I was at Proof of Talk about two months ago over in Paris. And just like the excitement in the ecosystem, it was really, really awesome.

57:58And it got me more excited and bullish on the ecosystem in general. In terms of stable coins, I know people have been throwing some stuff out there. I think I read some thesis around Curve and Ina, Athena and stuff like that. I haven't been as close because I feel like I'm a little late to that trade. And I wasn't necessarily looking at it as closely before. I do own some Frax, which is from last cycle. And I know they've been iterating and setting themselves up for this type of situation. So, you know, I think there are opportunities there. I think it's just really who can like have the lobbying power and is set up in the right place in order to fully take advantage of it.

58:44But I'm not close enough on like the stablecoin infrastructure to really have a really good opinion on that. yeah we could have we could have really spoken about tau a lot because i am actually this is potenser by the way it's the the ticker is tau but but it's potenser is is the name of the of the chain it is super interesting like i'm why i really agree with what you just said it's got this belief behind it from a lot of people who are deep into ai as like an alternative basically or like a this is going to be absolutely massive in like 10 to 20 years which is why I've always owned some I only played it down from like a top down perspective I just wanted to be in in majors but it's one that I can consistently look at and I know it's one of those coins if it starts rallying and starts breaking out there'll be a lot of FOMO because a lot of people have owned it at one stage and been like oh this is really interesting like me and perhaps I've got smaller positions now and I just feel like it does feel like one of those coins.

59:46For those not really familiar, it's kind of like a reward mechanism for AI. It has the same sort of tokenomics as Bitcoin, but there's a number of different... They're called subnets. Am I right? Subnets. I forget if they're called... I know subnets are from AVAX, and I've forgotten if I had the right terminology. But they basically do various different things related to AI applications, and you get rewards based on the efficacy of what you're doing on the different subnets. So it's like, it is a super interesting system and there's a lot of different things being built on it. So yeah, I would guess that Tau would be one I'd look at on the back of Besant's comments.

1:00:23We have end of alt season, can we see on YouTube? What do you reckon of that, Spencer? Do you reckon end of alt season here? It feels a bit premature. We have seen the others index doing well has retreated, but end of old season. Here's my take. I think this actually ties these two together. I think that there's a lot of things that are very obviously happening, right? Very obviously stablecoins are becoming a big thing, but very obviously AI is becoming a big thing, right? However, there is also not very obviously trades to give you exposure to both of those theses within crypto, and I think it's very dangerous to think that there is, right?

1:01:06Stablecoins is funny because like Even USDC, if BlackRock comes out with BlackRock stablecoin, that could be a real challenger. It's not obvious that being first is better. This is my joke earlier on the show. USDC to$5, there's not an easy bet on USDC to$5, more stablecoin adoption. Maybe you buy Circle in the public markets, but really, there's a lot of things that happen. The best intersection for a trade is things that you think will happen and a clear way to get exposure to them happening. I think this second leg is where a lot of things break down, especially because the competition coming into crypto from these traditional players, and we won't see it immediately, it'll take them time to adopt, but it's going to be very real over the long haul.

1:01:49And who's the actual long term winner is tough, right? In AI, right? I think there's like three companies that are meaningful, right? You've got like Anthropic, you've got OpenAI, you've got Cursor, like there's a couple, maybe not three, but it's countable, the number. And there's a lot of like, very not the same derivatives. and I'm very skeptical a lot of the ways that you can get exposure to there being more stable coins in crypto or like AI happening in crypto overall but I think this is actually part of this like NFT, CryptoPunk, Moonbirds culture thesis is like the thing that Wall Street can never replicate is the culture, is the art, is the things where the tech itself is not the moat because tech isn't a moat because it becomes undifferentiated.

1:02:32I think this is what we're so far ahead for so long. And then nobody talks about Polygon that much anymore, right? Like, the tech amongst L2s became undifferentiated. And the winners of that market are people who understood culture better and who have culture better. Like the thing that is, if you believe on-chain culture is going to be a thing, like there is a very obvious way to get exposure to that. Like, CryptoPunks are hard to unseat as the leader of on-chain culture. Like there are other NFTs around that that are, but like BlackRock cannot come in and make BlackRock CryptoPunks, like they just wouldn't be as serious competitor as BlackRock Stablecoin would be because the driver of adoption for stablecoins is these institutional plays and the institutions like other institutions.

1:03:14But institutions are not going to attempt to do culture plays like they just can't. It's not a thing that makes sense for them. And so that's where like the moat that the historic like crypto Twitter and the crypto as we know it from the prior cycles, that moat does not exist on a tech level, I believe, fundamentally. It does, however, exist on a culture level. And that's why I think it's really important when you're picking your bets and making your investments is the absolute worst and most emotional trades I've ever made are ones where I'm very certain that a thing will happen in the world.

1:03:47And I just picked the wrong way to get proxy exposure to that thing happening. And I think there's a lot of people I see in crypto making specifically that mistake at size right now. Yeah, I've done that before. You literally have the exact thing that's going to happen and you buy the wrong asset for it. This cycle or this last few months example would be probably some of the ETH beta plays. They've kind of underperformed to a large extent, even ETH. I feel like as soon as ETH started moving, everyone was like, right, I need to own this. Only really punks and a couple of coins have done okay. And a lot of stuff has just kind of just done the same is what ETH has done, or sometimes even worse.

1:04:31Luckily, I avoided that. I made sure I owned ETH this time. But I agree with you. That's one of the main errors I see. It's the same way that people bought ordinals last year because they thought Bitcoin was going to go higher. I thought, all right, I need to own Bitcoin beta, and then that all. Yeah, I mean, imagine just being like, I believe in the future of Bitcoin, and then you've lost all your money in Bitcoin and ordinals. That's the worst place to be. Actually, I think this has happened more generally, where like the best crypto portfolios amongst my friends are my friends who don't do anything in crypto and just own a bunch of BTC, right?

1:05:04Like BTC is this in a very substantial way, this cycle dominate, like, you know, Bitcoin was like, what, 17 ,000 and it's now 120 ,000. Like very few betas to that at all have out before. And certainly not baskets of what you would think to be betas. Always make sure you're in part of the winner. Like if you're bullish on NFTs, always make sure you own some punks. You know what I mean? Cool. All right. Well, we'll end it there. It's been a great hour, I think. There were a couple more questions, but I'm afraid we haven't had time to get through everything. G Money and Spencer are going to be regular co-hosts.

1:05:38We're going to be having them on at various different times, I think, over the next few months. Ra will be on the show next week. But yeah, thanks again for tuning in. Thanks a lot for coming by, Spencer and G Money. Really appreciate your thoughts today. And we will be back again next Friday, same time. Thanks, everyone. See you next week.

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