The Dollar Collapse and the Rise of Real Assets

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0:31This is the Rich Dad Radio Show. The good news and bad news about money. Here's Robert Kiyosaki. Hello, hello, hello. Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich Dad Radio Show, broadcasting today from Phoenix, Arizona, where it's heaven or hell, and today it's heaven. And we have a very special guest today, one of the smartest guys I know when it comes to the new world of crypto or electronic money. it's Mark Moss before I go on I'm going to show off my rock and roll jacket here I just returned from Durban, South Africa and I met this guy he designs the most outside the box clothing so I had to show it off today I might paint my eyes red and white or something just to fit like a rock star I love the jacket I love it man this guy was so out there and you know I chose like a doddery old man, so I think I better step it up.

1:29Mark, welcome to the show. And like I said, you're one of the smartest guys I know when it comes to the setting you world of electronic money, crypto. And my teacher was a man named Dr. R. Buckminster Fuller, and he wrote a book called The Critical Path, but this is his book here called The Grunt of Giants. I don't recommend reading it because it's one of his, it's a tough read, but grunt stands for gross universal cash heist. That is how our banking system rips off our wealth via our money. So that's why Enriched Dad pointed at us that the rich don't work for money. Your house is not an asset and savers are losers.

2:09And Fuller also predicted that there would be a new form of money coming on. He was a futurist. And so Buckminster Fuller talked about gross universal cash ice, talked about, he was watching kids playing video games, and he says, that's the future of money. And then as we know, Bitcoin is now taking the world by storm, and everybody's into crypto. We have a first crypto president, Donald Trump, and he sets out his own coins and all this. It's a brave new world. I mean, it's a world that we've never seen before. and for full disclosure, I missed the move. I only got in at$6 ,000 a coin for Bitcoin, but I did back up the truck at$6 ,000, so I'm doing fairly well.

2:56And also I have Ether, but I don't chase anything else. I kind of understand Ethereum, and I kind of understand Bitcoin. And today we're going to talk about Mark Moss because my generation, Boomer generation, many of us are in severe trouble because if I think what's going to happen is coming, it's a crash of the stock market, the boomers would be out down the river without a paddle. And so I'm going to talk to Mars about what he understands the world of crypto, one of the smartest guys I know in it, but also how does a person retire on it? I retired a long time ago off of real estate, and I'm glad I did.

3:39so I'm just kind of having a good time playing with money. I like the game, but it's just a game to me. So Mark, welcome to the Bitch Dad Show, and thank you for all you do because your podcasts are spectacular. Yeah, thanks for having me, Robert. For everybody listening, I mean, Robert, you've been my mentor for 25 years. I've read, I think, every single book you put out, including the ones you did with Trump, and now I've gotten to know you personally for the last couple of years, so always a joy to be back there and talk to you. Thank you. So we're in this brave new world of crypto money and all this.

4:13And we're talking before we went on, how does a person retire on that? But another question is this, you have this guy, Michael Saylor, and you have Tom Lee. And Michael Saylor is using the leverage of Wall Street with a public company. Yeah. What's the name of his company? Strategy. It was MicroStrategy, and now it's called Strategy. Then you have Tom Lee, who I think is doing kind of a similar thing. Yep. His building block is Ethereum. Yes. Could you explain quickly what, as best you can, what Sailor is up to, how it uses a company, but to leverage it through a stock is shares of his company.

4:57Yeah. So there's really two parts to his company. So there's MicroStrategy, which is now Strategy, but the stock is still MSDR. And there's the common stock of that. And what he's done is he's using public debt and equity markets, debt and credit markets to leverage up his Bitcoin position. So very simply, if I buy one Bitcoin and you buy one Bitcoin, but then I borrow 50 % of my value against my Bitcoin to buy more, I've levered it up. If Bitcoin goes up, I will outperform you because of applied leverage. Same with real estate, right? If I pay cash for real estate versus putting 20 % down, then when real estate goes up, the The person that used leverage does better.

5:40So what using these public vehicles, he's tapping into public debt and equity markets to raise money at low rates to buy an asset that's going up at higher rates. And so that was stage one of the company, which is, hey, I'm going to apply leverage. I'm going to buy Bitcoin. And when you buy my stock, which is the MSTR common stock, the amount of Bitcoin per share that you own, my goal is to get that to go up over time. So if you buy an ETS, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. Your Bitcoin doesn't go up. As a matter of fact, your Bitcoin goes down because of the fees. But if you want MSDR, the exposure, the Bitcoin per share goes up over time because of the level.

6:23So he increases the stock value with that. That's correct. So that was phase one. And what he's done now is changing everything that we know about the world of finance. Wait, wait, hold on one second. It's like me. I'm an oil and gold guy. I own gold mines. I take them public. So I take the public's money to oil, I mean for oil or for gold. So I have a company in Utah, a gold company. And every time we strike more gold, the share of my company goes up. My exit is kind of through the share price of my company. The same as my oil company, we borrow money from the open markets, public markets, and we drill for oil and we make money when we strike oil.

7:11Is that kind of what Saylor's doing? It is, but the turn time is much shorter. So, for example, you borrow money from a public market to go drill for oil and then you'll hit the oil, but that could be years potentially in between. What he's doing is he's borrowing money from the public market and within an hour converting into Bitcoin, but very similar. it's tempting it's tempting but the next step is where it gets real interesting so if you think about a bank so i think the two keys that i talk about building wealth wealth um robert is one leverage so how can i use and you you call smart credit right yeah productive capital productive credit right so one the leverage how can i use some use credit or leverage to buy a productive asset that can pay for the debt plus one that's one and then the second is arbitrage.

8:06How do I leverage two markets against each other so I can leverage the credit market against the oil market? So what he's done also is now he's raised money to buy Bitcoin. And now that he has the Bitcoin as a base layer, as an asset, what do I do with it? Well, what he's recognized is while Bitcoin is the best asset to own, in my opinion, it's the cheat code in the last three years it's averaged a 60 percent compound annual growth rate this year today it's also about 60 percent so what he's done is he said hey that's great and it can save a lot of these boomers retirements but if you're say 78 years old on fixed income you can't go hold bitcoin for five years and you can't stomach the volatility i gotta pay my bills I need to pay for my medication, my electricity.

8:57So Michael Saylor says this, fine. You give me the money, I'll buy Bitcoin. I'll give you 10 % yield guaranteed and I'll handle the volatility and take the risk. So he's created what's called preferred instruments, preferred stock. There's four of them. I'll keep it simple, but strike, stride, stride, and the new one is stretch, S-T-R-C. You can buy it in your brokerage account. And it's going to pay you 10.5%. So when you give him money, it's credit. He's going to pay you 10%. He's going to buy Bitcoin. And he'll make the 50 % margin. And the beauty of this, Robert, I'll just give you one example.

9:39I'll take a break. But when you buy dividend-paying stocks, you're buying them based off of the future expectation of cash flow. If I buy an AT &T dividend stock, I hope that AT &T has cash flow in the future. But with AI disrupting everything, what guarantee is that there will be cash flow in the future? The difference that he's doing is when you give him money, he buys the asset. And he's paying a small percentage of revenue off of an asset base. And today, if he never took in another penny, he could pay the debt obligation for 120 years. So it's the safest type of credit instrument that you can buy, and it pays about double what other assets are paying or credit instruments are paying.

10:27Right. That's what Ken McElroy and I do. We buy a piece of real estate. We use leverage debt, and the income comes off of it, plus we amortize our loans. We cover all expenses, and the income comes off, and we share that back with our investors. Right. Is that kind of the model he's using? Yeah, it's the model. So you're using leverage to buy the real estate and then you're using arbitrage. So you'll make the bigger percentage and you'll give the investors a small piece of it and you keep the difference. Okay. So that's what he's doing. He's like, hey, I'll take all the work. I'll do all the work, all the messy stuff, the volatility, the risk, and I'll just give you a percentage for doing nothing.

11:07And I'll secure it against this asset. So very similar to what you do with real estate. And then you have Tom Lee with Ether or Ethereum, excuse me. What's happening there? Yeah. So, you know, the two biggest cryptocurrencies are Bitcoin and Ethereum. And really the difference, you could use Ethereum as like all other crypto. There's like 19 million other tokens at this point. But Bitcoin is a digital commodity, has been defined by the government, meaning that anybody in the world can get it. Like I can get gold anywhere in the world or grow oranges anywhere in the world or grow oil anywhere in the world.

11:43And no matter where I get the oil, it's fungible. a security is something that a company starts there's a controlling interest that's dependent on the people that run it so that's like aetherium there's the there's consensus with joseph lubin and vitality uterin and they run it so it's sort of like a company and they hope to be like the supercomputer of the world one day and so tom lee uh fun strat as he's known online a very smart guy And he's decided to do the same thing that Michael Saylor is doing using Ethereum. Now, his launch was a few months ago, and it performed amazingly well. I think he raised like$30 billion, and the price of Ethereum has been pumping since then.

12:24What's your personal opinion of Ethereum versus Bitcoin? I have both. Well, I mean, Ethereum has performed amazingly well against U.S. dollars. When you measure Ethereum's performance in Bitcoin, not dollars, but Bitcoin, it's down. It's never been able to make a second all-time high price in Bitcoin terms. So performance basis, it hasn't done as well as Bitcoin. The question I think maybe you're asking is like, will that type of a treasury company work as well as a Bitcoin treasury company? And it's so new, we'll have to see. but I don't know if it makes sense to use a company as a treasury asset because there's a lot of operational risk that comes with that versus Bitcoin is just a commodity.

13:04It's just a piece of code. It's a protocol. And so you don't have all that risk that's associated with it. Yeah. What you're saying is that a rich dad company is an operating company, but our mission is not to acquire Bitcoin. I save Bitcoin personally. I save Ethereum personally, but the company's mission is not to build Bitcoin. So when we come back and we're going to talk to you about this, is that the Bay Boom generation, the first generation was a thing called a 401k. They were called defined contribution pension plans. Prior to 1974, there was a thing called defined benefit. A defined benefit was the pension plan my father had that the state of Hawaii guaranteed him, let's say$1 ,000 a month, till the day he died.

13:53But with a defined contribution, if I did the same thing as my poor dad did, and let's say I had$100 ,000 in my retirement account, and inflation takes off, the$100 ,000 is gone. You understand the predicament there, and then you're like 80 years old, and you're up the creek without a paddle. so i want to come back i want to talk to you about what the old guys do i mean how can they again this is not we're not an investment show we don't make recommendations i tell people what i do mark tells people what we do he does but we don't recommend doing what we do so we come back if you were a baby boomer let's say you're pushing 65 now and you got nothing what was your strategy be, Mark, knowing what you know about Ethereum, Bitcoin, and all that, how would you save your butt?

14:49Because what happens is when you get older, your expenses don't go down. They actually go up because medical kicks in. So when we come back, we're going to talk to Mark Moss here, the smartest guy I said, no, about how can an old guy save their butt using crypto? And we don't recommend it. We're just going to be talking about it. We'll be right back.

15:16Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back. Bridge Day Radio Show. Today our special guest is Mark Moss, one of the smartest guys I know in the world of crypto. And we're talking, we're going to find out how, again, we make no recommendations. We're not an investment advisory show, but we're going to tell you what we might do if we had to do it. It's just my story is this, is that I retired at 47 using real estate, but I used debt. So I used debt to buy these properties, and the income from the properties paid for me to retire. Kim was 37, I was 47. So today, at 47, I wrote a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and the whole shoot and match took off again.

15:55So I make a lot more money today than from my books than I do for my real estate. It's ironic. So retirement can be a good thing, except if you're old and feeble and out of money. So Mark, if you were an old guy, let's say 65 or 70, and your 401k looks tenuous, or your retirement is tenuous, because I wrote a book called Who Stole My Pension? Our pensions have been stolen. So what would you do? What kind of strategy, let's say, Mark, you're 65 years old, you know all this about crypto. How would you do it, starting from nothing? It depends on the time frame and the amount of money that you need, but let's make this simple.

16:35We'll talk about it in a couple of different ways. So the first thing is, I just want to say real quick, retirement as far as doing nothing shouldn't be our ultimate goal. Robert, you retired at 47, but here you are working. But it's about to your game that you have behind you. It's about freeing yourself from the rat race. So you can work on things you want to do. So not freedom from work, but freedom to work on what you want. So let's talk about if you're sort of behind on the amount of money that you need to break out of the rat race as you have on the board game behind you. And so Bitcoin and crypto in general gives us this opportunity that we haven't had before because it's been the best performing assets in history and any timeframe.

17:16So the best asset in 15 years, 10 years, five years, three years, and this year. So that gives us this opportunity to make up that gain that we need. Now, I believe this will continue for a couple of different reasons, but mainly what we're witnessing is the digitalization of money and digital assets will always move faster than physical assets. So the digitization of money, digital capital, as we call it, will outperform the S &P 500, which is companies, brick and mortar. And S &P 500, productive businesses will always do better than credit. So we have those three markets. Okay, so Michael Saylor states that Bitcoin will continue to have at least a 30 % compound annual growth rate for the next 21 years.

18:08So let's go with that. What that means is if I have$10 ,000 today, that will be$2 million in 10 years. That's how compounding works. $10 ,000 today becomes$2 million in 10 years. So you can make up a lot of room. I think that Bitcoin can achieve around a million dollars in next five or six years with about a 8 or 10x from here today. So I think I projected we'll hit about a million dollars by 2030, 2031. So that would maintain a 50 % compound annual growth rate. So over the last three years, it's been 60. I'm saying it will continue at 50 for the rest of the decade, the next four years. That means that if I had$100 ,000 in my retirement account, I could buy$100 ,000 of Bitcoin, and that could be worth about a million dollars in five or six years from now.

18:59Now, how do we retire off of this? So that's the first part. How do we make up graph? So if you're behind, you can put some into Bitcoin. It's projected to return somewhere between 50, maybe down to 30 % compounding over the next 5, 10, 20 years. That's tough for me because I'm real simple. I agree with the assumption Bitcoin was designed to win because it's only 21 million and we're almost at 21 right now so that's why with the world market coming to Bitcoin and they do mean the world so when somebody says Bitcoin has to say 100 ,000 today October 2025 it's going to be a million in five years I don't blink I say it's possible I'm not saying it's going to my question to you is, let's say I'm 65 years old.

19:53I buy it today at$100 ,000. It's worth a million dollars five years from now. How would I cash flow it? Like my real estate just gets more valuable and my cash flow keeps going up. So I get richer every year. What happens is like some people buy their house and they sell it. They have no asset anymore. They have capital gains. how would a person take you buy a hundred thousand bitcoin today it's a million dollars in five years let's say this is these are just guesses so what i think about is you're you buy a piece of real estate and it's going to give you a six or eight percent yield this capital that you get from it you don't sell the asset you get the cash flow from it but i would say if we look at income just a little bit different and maybe more broad like a first principle approach if i bought a property for$100 ,000 and a year later sold it for$200 ,000, that's income.

20:49I had to sell the asset. So Bitcoin is going up at 50 % per year, but it doesn't produce a yield like Bitcoin. So to your point, I would have to sell it and I would pay tax. And then I no longer have the asset compounding, which is terrible. So what we want to do is we want to use debt. And what we can do is we can harvest some of the appreciation with debt leverage. So let's keep it simple. It's a, let's say a hundred thousand today and it's a million dollars in 10 years. Let's say. Yeah. How would you harvest that gain in there? So if Bitcoin is going up by it's 50%, let's call it 30. If it continues to go up at 30 % in five years from now, I have a million dollars of Bitcoin.

21:35Now it's going up at 30 % a year. I could borrow 10 to 15 % against it every year in perpetuity because it's going up by 30. I'm only borrowing at 15. So you would borrow against it? I would borrow against it. And I would roll the debt every year. So in year one, I have 100 ,000 today. In five years, it's a million. I would borrow$150 ,000 against that tax-free, and I would spend it,$150 ,000. Next year, I would borrow$300 ,000. I'd pay off the$150 ,000. I'd keep the$150 ,000 tax-free. The next year, borrow$450 ,000, pay off the$300 ,000, keep the$150 ,000 tax-free. You gain to amortize the original loan, then borrow more.

22:24Use the gain to amortize the loan. That's right. And as long as Bitcoin's compound annual growth is higher than the interest on the debt, I can do that forever. Freaking brilliant. I learned it from you, Robert. I learned it from you. And so we never sell the asset, so it continues to compound. I never pay the tax. And then the next question people ask me, Robert, is, well, that's great, Mark, but when would I pay off the debt? And my question, my answer is never. Never. The only time you never pay out the debt is if the growth rate was below the cost of the debt. But because we're leveraging digital markets, physical markets, and credit markets, it should only outperform a credit market, just like real estate does.

23:14so I'm going to ask this question because I was listening to Tom Lee smart, smart dude and he likes Ethereum because Ethereum is going to be the building blocks for stablecoins and I thought that's absolutely brilliant so stablecoin is they're going to create a coin but it's going to go back to the old-fashioned style of money stablecoin would actually buy gold to make it stable but Ethereum is kind of the workhorse underneath of it. Or they could buy real estate or they could buy bonds as the asset. So this table coin buys the asset, but Ethereum is the workhorse underneath of all this. So that's as much as I understand.

23:59So to me, what that sounds like is Bitcoin is gold. Ethereum is silver. See, silver is a working metal. gold i would look at a little bit differently i would call ethereum like amazon uh web services like amazon data center so every time a transaction happens on the ethereum blockchain they would get a little fee so it's not really silver um bitcoin can be gold and silver together because it can move at the speed of light uh but ethereum more gets a piece of every transaction that happens on it so to your point if you build all the stable coins on it every time a stable coin transaction happens, there could be a little piece of a fee that goes to the CM network.

24:44Okay. So all I'm doing being an old guy, Mark, you know, I'm just, I mean, the sad thing is I'm making so much more money because when they print money, real assets go up. So they print money, my real estate gets more valuable. Right. But also when they print money, inflation goes up. Yeah. So it inflates the asset, but it also inflates milk and chickens. I go to dinner. I said, how does somebody afford dinner? But my assets are going up. But what else is happening? Because assets are going up in price like real estate. People are homeless. I mean, it's kind of a screwed world right now. It's a very screwed world.

25:27And as you know, Robert, it's a function of the system. And it's not a bug, it's a feature. So when Nixon took us off of the gold standard in 1971, we severed all ties and we're in a debt-based, we went from an equity-based to now a debt-based monetary system. And so that means that the money is created through debt issuance. And that means that in that type of a system, the debt becomes the asset or collateral for more debt. And so in that system, it has to always grow. That's why Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve says our target is 2 % inflation. It's higher than that, but our goal is 2%.

26:05So their goal is to only steal 2 % a year or that 10 % of your wealth every five years. That's their goal. And I think the sooner that people can understand that, it doesn't go away. it's the goal of the government to inflate the economy which steals my wealth makes my food more expensive my gas more expensive that's not a bug that's the feature that means that as that inflation continues these asset prices will keep going up yeah what mark is saying is that when they print money if you're a saver of cash you're screwed yeah but if you've saved bitcoin or ethereum you win or real estate yeah the average person who's old thinking like go to school get a job and save money you're in trouble because the america is not the biggest debtor nation in the world it went from what 36 trillion to 37 trillion in debt and they're not going to stop so the more that the debt goes up ethereum goes up in value or bitcoin goes up in value would you concur with that.

27:13Right. So that's what's happening. The assets are going up. And then the question is like, so when the tide rises, the inflation goes up, the boats go up as well. But which assets go up the fastest? And so how does gold respond? How does real estate respond? How does the S &P 500 respond? And what we've seen is that Bitcoin is the most sensitive. So it has an 8.9 times sensitivity or move about 10 times faster than other assets because of its scarce nature. But that's the exact function, Robert. Yeah. And the other thing too is that it doesn't always go up. It crashes too. Sure. And so when I showed this one guy, I have my little, on my iPhone is my price of Bitcoin and all this.

27:55He says, it went down like 10%. I said, yeah. He says, well, I'm not going to touch it. So he said, old guy like me, he's still saving cash because he feels safer in cash, but he's getting screwed anyway because our debt keeps going up. And they keep printing more cash. Right. Is that what's going on with the world right now? It is, but I have a good solution for that, guys. So you need to think about the duration of the money, right? So like, how thing do I need it? So money that I don't need as soon, I can lock up for longer periods of time. Like when you do one of your big commercial buildings, that's going to take four or five years to turn, for example, right?

28:36So you wouldn't put money I need for rent next week into one of those projects. And so we want to break it down by the time duration that we need the money. And what's happening with Michael Saylor and strategies and giving investors options for that lower volatility for lower returns and giving them some of the safety back, but still the option to have outside returns. I'd love to break that down for you. Well, that went over my head. I just like to collect the rent. And then, you know, homelessness is exploding. and a lot of that's for drugs and all this stuff, but a lot of it, they can't afford to live anymore because it's so worthless and that AI is going to take their jobs anyway.

29:16We're in a big, big screw job right now. Half of the people going on to Skid Row today are baby rumors. It's a big predicament. They're what? Half of people going on to Skid Row and the homelessness today are baby rumors. Half of them. It's a big problem. Anyway, Mark, thank you for your wisdom. You're the smartest guys I know. Keep up the good work. How do people stay in touch with you, Mark? Yeah, just follow me on Twitter, at OneMarkMoss, or go on to YouTube. Just search Mark Moss on YouTube, and I have all these types of videos broken down into greater detail for you. And what I recommend is, I like YouTube because guys like Mark Moss will say Bitcoin is good, and there's other guys who will say Bitcoin sucks.