Angela Scanlon

0:00Welcome to Rosebud. I've got a question for you. Is your bestie zesty? If they aren't, drop them. And listen to this episode of Rosebud, where I have to tell you, our guestie is zesty, and perhaps the bestie we've ever had. Cue the music.

0:40Hello, I'm Giles Bradworth, and this is Rosebud. I'm very excited about today's special guest. When I was, oh, quite a bit younger than her, still in my 20s, I was interviewed by Linda Lee Potter, and the report of the interview described me as being, well, like a packet of Rice Krispies. He's got snap, crackle and pop. It said how I was fizzing with energy and life. And that's how I would describe today's guest. She's remarkable. She is just full of life and energy. She's an Irish broadcaster. She's a podcaster as well. Get a Grip is a podcast that I love. She's Angela Scanlon, by the way. Better say the name out loud.

1:26Angela Scanlon. I love the name. I love her style. I was lucky enough to be invited to go to Dublin to be on her chat show over there. She's a well-known broadcaster in Ireland. She's a well-known broadcaster here. She does the Your Fired Apprentice spin-off on BBC television. She often co-hosts this morning the show on ITV that I appear on. I just love her work. I particularly enjoy her on Instagram. I'm on Instagram and Rosebud is on Instagram Angela Scanlon is one of the people I follow because the energy, the verve the sense of danger, excitement, glamour amusement, self-deprecation, chaos and intelligence that she brings to every video is extraordinary well, you can see I am a fan I was a little bit in love before I sat down to record this conversation with her I'm now in love in a big way.

2:22And I think you may be too, because this is a life-enhancing hour with a remarkable and interesting individual. There's more complexity here than you might imagine, and there are moments of heartache as well as moments that are truly life-enhancing. This is a special Rosebud with my Irish friend, Angela Scanlon. Cue the music.

3:01Hi, babe. Hi, Angela Scanlon. Born the 29th of December 1983. Have I got that bit right? Well, I mean, I guess we should start from the top. It's actually 1982. Exclusive. Wikipedia has me as 1983. I did shave a year off when I first moved to London because at 29 I thought I was too old I didn't want to hit 30 too quick This is the candid interview we're going to get it oh my god I would never correct you ordinarily but usually people don't lead with that no, no he's ripping up his page, I mean I know this is visual but if it's just in your ears he's ripping up his pages I'm ripping up the notes AI, Wikipedia forget it Angela Scanlon born the 29th of December is the date at least right?

3:53Capricorn Capricorn you and Jesus indeed exactly or Jesus as he's sometimes called or Jesus as he's called in Dublin enough of this banter let's get on with it Angela this is the first question and it is simply what is your very first memory? like I don't know if this is my first this is the first memory I remember, which I guess it is means it's my first memory. But I'm not sure whether it's because I've retold it that it's the one that's the quickest to pluck. And I am in, it's like a memory of being on holiday in County Cork. And like, it's so it's not a specific memory, but it's just more of a general kind of like, I remember us in the car going down, I remember the excitement.

4:47I remember the kind of chaos. Like it just felt wildly exciting. Who was in the car? Myself, my three sisters and my parents. Okay, I'll pack this. Yeah. County Cork, why are you going to County Cork? County Cork, we were going to a place called Tribalgan, which I guess is maybe comparable to like Butlins. And we had a caravan tied to the back of the car. So that in and of itself was very exciting. So there are six of you in the car, your parents in the front, four girls in the back seat. Four girls in the back, stepping stones or stairs on a seat. And this is before seatbelts? It would have been pretty rogue, I'd say, in the back.

5:31Do you know what the make of car was? I think it was a Ford Escort. Good, so you've got a Ford Escort, parents in the front, girls in the back. What age are the different girls and what are their names? So there is Christine, who's 18 months older than me. I'm second in line. then Siobhan who's three years younger than me and then Annette who's the youngest who is less than a year younger than Siobhan. So you've got to be at least five. I'm five-ish I would say. This recollection which is quite late for our first recollection. Yeah. But that's the way it goes. Yeah okay. Yeah. A late developer.

6:04A late developer. We may be establishing a theme already. Yeah I think that's fair. So who is driving the car? My dad's driving. My dad always drove. drove and um I remember like we definitely didn't have seatbelts because I remember being quite like grumpy sometimes in the car and standing holding on to the seat kind of defiantly being told to sit down but I didn't want to sit down we would have to stop for wheeze every so often but like I did not want a wild wee it wasn't cool back then roadside wheeze were not for you no even though I needed to do it quite regularly. I had like bladder issues as a kid.

6:41So many children do. They do. You are not excused. So who were your parents? Since your dad is driving the car, let's talk about him first. What is his name? Is he still with us? He is. Both of my parents, thankfully, are still here. My dad's name is Phelam. Phelam? Phelam. P-H-E-L-I-M. Yeah. And I always thought it was so cool, like exotic. Describe him particularly what he looked like when you were a little girl your childhood memories of his appearance I remember he had like hair that was a similar colour to ours like not quite as red but his locks would have been red and he he was a builder and he would like physically work and I just remember sometimes sitting in his lap and just the like size of his hands like he was a kind of big not actually like a super big man But I just always was quite like oddly romantic is the wrong word.

7:37But I remember it like he was very other in our house because I guess it was all girls. And you mean very other meaning different. Yeah. So special. It's special, I think. And you saw his builder's hands as strong hands. Strong. And like, you know, we yeah, he was he like I have a picture still of the four of us literally. hanging off his back and he just felt like even though now as an adult he's not a particularly big man he just had a very big presence in our house and he was one of 14 children and he was like midway in the lineup I would say. Very diplomatic, a man of few words but like deeply sensitive, I would say.

8:28Although, again, that's maybe a later kind of appreciation or understanding. Have you ever met another man comparable? As good, as strong, as basically decent? You know what? I think I kind of had a period of time where I maybe didn't appreciate those qualities. And I think I have found in my husband a kind of kindness and gentleness that maybe for a period I would have thought is like not the vibe. Good. Tell us about your mother now. What was she called? My mum is called Marian. Mary, it was the year of the Marians, which is a very particular Irish thing, I think. She was born in 1954 and they call it the year of the Marians.

9:17I don't know, something to do with the Pope. But like if you meet a Marian in Ireland, you can basically guess that she was born in 1954. Oh, how wonderful. I don't know whether the Pope decided it was his favourite name. that seems unlikely but was he it was a celebration I imagine though of the Virgin Mary presumably but why 54 I don't know I think there was an order of Marian's this is ringing a distant bell we'll have to do homework okay yeah well it was a thing but she was Mary like her passport's Mary she's called Marian yeah but then weirdly I was born during the Angelus which is like again a very specific thing in the service forgive me the Angelus So like every day in Ireland, I actually think it might still be a thing, but like just before the six o 'clock news in the evening, there would like the world would stop and this big old bell would gong out of the tellies all around Ireland.

10:13And you would kind of stop and do like a little prayer, I suppose. And I was born at five past six while the Angelas was still being played. Hence. Because I think the Angelus happens during a service, during Mass, at every service. There is a moment where the Angelus... Boom! Exactly. Yeah, I did it as an altar girl. I think when your eyes are averted from the host being lifted. I mean, I'm not a Catholic. But you're very good at the game. But you clearly are, and your father certainly was, with his 13 siblings. Yes, absolutely. So we get back to your mother. She was born 1954, the year of the Marian.

10:48She was called Mary as a consequence. She was. Yes, yes. And what sort of person did she become? She was, like, again, I think she is very kind of artistic. She was quite a wise old soul. You know, very open, could be quite, you know, hardcore in her own way. But, you know, lived away from her parents. She was born in Galway. My dad was Mayo on the west of Ireland and they moved to Dublin. How did they meet? I think they met in a pub and he said his name was William initially I don't know if that was like a way to swerve but like it became Also if you have quite a complicated name which is his Well I think it's only complicated to your ear I think it's relatively not commonplace but it wouldn't have been alien in Ireland William may have been more alien in Ireland Yeah but my mum always used to call my dad Phil actually so it was always like which I always thought was really romantic that she had another name for him that had literally nothing to do because he's not Philip or anything like that.

11:54What did she look like when you were there? So she always had short hair, which I always thought was like the mum hairdo, which was again quite a thing that maybe generationally was an expectation. And she had brown eyes, the only one of our family, to have like these beautiful, deep brown eyes. and she I mean she held the whole show together she yeah had had four daughters she often would express kind of frustration I think at her role as in other words being a bloody taxi driver and so like literally picking us up taking us out like because there were kind of almost two batches she would take me and my older sister irish dancing by the time we were finished she'd be bringing us home or the other way around younger sisters dancing back in out in out it was i would say relentless and then obviously the expectation to have you know food on the table and all of the things that i know i'm like shit the bed it's a lot picture them together for us as a couple what were they like um give us a moment of you remembering them together they used to describe themselves as Jack and Vera Duckworth.

13:14Maybe a later version was like John and Mary from Father Ted. So they bickered a lot. But in a kind of quite a playful, tender way. Like I don't ever remember them fighting very much. I remember one fight that they had, which was kind of felt really significant. Do you know what that was about? It was about mass, weirdly. Not weirdly at all You're a serious Catholic family Yeah Conscious that you're giving birth to someone during the Angelus Exactly That you were born in the Marian year Yeah And so she, I think My mum Her mother was very religious And she inherited that And a lot of the time we did too We all went to mass Rollers in her hair We like did the thing And you kind of just didn't question it And it was at a time when A lot of the scandals were coming out in the church and my dad was like no I'm actually not going to mass anymore and I just remember it being a kind of we said that we would bring them up in fact we christened them we did the thing and I was like listening outside the door because it was so unusual to hear a kind of like real fight as I thought they were shouting yeah it was like it was a yeah and how old were you at the time do you think i don't know i imagine i was around 11 like it was when a lot of because i guess there were whispers of things that were a little sketchy with the catholic church but the that it blew open sex scandals and physical violence and the whole thing like absolute nuns as well as priests the whole thing was industrial schools and blown up and people were discovering this for the first time but you at that stage were a committed catholic you'd had your first communion?

15:04I did. I had my confirmation. And so I was just like in the system, I suppose. But were you also a believer? I don't know that I was. How old as a Catholic are you when you have your first communion? Seven-ish. Do you remember the day? I do remember the day, actually. Mostly because of the outfit and the money. Tell us about the outfit and the money. I don't know that I was like touched by the Lord. I think I was basically like, whoa, this is a moment for me. And I inherited the dress, which would have only been 18 months beforehand. And it was beautiful. And my sister had this gorgeous dress and she was very angelic.

15:44She was very, at that time, well behaved. And I was like, are you shitting me? I'm getting the hand-me-down dress. Absolutely not. And so I remember like bargaining with my mum as if I was in the position to do that. And I kind of agreed that I would wear the dress if I could style it my own way. And she was like, okay, what? And so we went to Nav and Shopping Centre and I remember, again, this being quite a wonderful outing. And I then got a pair of Clark's shoes that I had wanted for so long and they were black, which I think was like, oh, we're wearing black shoes. And I said, I remember having to fight for my right to wear them because it should be a head-to-toe white situation.

16:33And that was quite a punchy move. And I was like, Mum, I'll be able to wear them to school forevermore. Like, I get a pair of white shoes, they'll be in shit next week, and you'll have to get me another pair anyway in September. So I said, let's get the black ones, and then I'll get loads of wear out of them. So, you know, I spoke to the practical woman in her, and I got the black shoes, and I remember thinking, now I know who I am. Were you quite a dominant child? I don't know I think I was a real mix actually I think that dominance may be masked probably a real like I think I was very sensitive and I was very needy and I was very frightened actually like when I started school I remember going to like being taken out of the class, like desperately begging to come out of the class so that I could go in to sit beside my sister, like clingy.

17:32And why do you think you were like that? Why was there this neediness? I mean, I think some people just have that. And I think I tried to shake it out of myself to problematic levels as years went by. But I don't know. I suppose I never felt quite ready. So a lot of the things that I had to do, that one has to do as a human, as a child, I always felt like, I mean, the only way I can kind of relate it is like a bird being kind of chucked from the nest just a bit too early. I always had the feeling that I wasn't quite prepared. I wasn't quite, oh, I'm nearly there, but I'm not quite there. And then off you go.

18:24Give us another moment of that from these early years before you're 11. The example of going to your sister's class is a good one. Yeah. Of you feeling this way. An actual incident. I remember my so when my granny was still alive my mum's mum we would go down which again I have like beautiful kind of broad memories of going to her house in in Galway like in the middle of nowhere and we would just kind of roam the fields it was very free and she was like a wonderful presence I think in my life which again I maybe realised too late she died when I was maybe eight and I remember like that adventure but also having this feeling of it being quite scary going to bed without your parents and so I would style it out I was with my older sister and um being told like let's say it's Wednesday your parents are coming tomorrow so I wake in the morning thinking um they're coming today so like it's probably seven o 'clock and I sit on the end I just remember they so when you got to their house there was a like ramp up to the house was kind of up on a height and so there was two large gables like literally well off the ground and so I sat on the gable waiting for them to come but obviously Thursday is Thursday they're without kids they probably had a lunch on the way down that was you know without someone dragging out of their legs or demanding a wee break or whatever it might have been and so Thursday just felt like this endless day and I remember sitting like not budging from that gable because today was the day and so I think I had I had kind of endured this week that had like lovely moments but that really was a lot and I was ready now to meet them and that day I genuinely thought would never end and then I thought they would never come I was like oh my god maybe they've just will never come back and so I think on the surface I was this lively little kid like my you know uncle used to call me muscles and I was I was very sparky kid but I think it hid a lot of those kind of fears that I had of that like anxiety I guess as a did your parents you think understand this I look I think in hindsight they were surviving with four very small children without help they didn't have nannies my mother wasn't getting a facial she was like self-care was not a thing I think she was doing an incredible job keeping the wheels between the ditches and so to have that level of emotional attunement I think And I masked it really well.

21:27I think I became really good at like looking very, you know, she would say things like you could go anywhere. I could literally put you anywhere. And that I would figure out a way to connect with people, to entertain people, to, you know, make myself at home. So I think I fooled everybody, really. Your parents, that one row that you remember listening at the door, did it change things? Because your father clearly decided enough, enough of the church, it's not for me. But your mother, because of the tradition and her mother, clung to her faith. It was important to her. It was the golden thread of her life.

22:10And I think she almost doubled down after that. But then she actually went a similar way. I think these things kept coming up and she was like, oh, hang on. Who am I doing this for again? And I guess she realised she could also have an opinion. For me, I just remember being like, oh, wow, this is possible that they can have two opposing feelings. Still get on. And do they still get on? Are they together? Yeah, they're still very much together. Still like Jack and Vera. and um but yeah they've like got a really brilliant shared sense of humor i think and sense of adventure i mean they they're 46 years married a couple of weeks ago and they were on holidays with my sister and her kids and sent into the family whatsapp group a picture of them saw like my nephew in between both of them on a like parachute balloon oh my goodness to celebrate right there, 46th wedding anniversary.

23:07Amazing. And I thought I kind of love the, yeah, they're just kind of defiant in many ways. And like they still have a beautiful spark and kind of zest, I suppose. Tell me about your three sisters. I have three elder sisters. So I know it's like to live with three. Well, yes. They were very distinct personalities. How were you with your three sisters? What were you like? How are you with them now? We are, I would say, thick as thieves, very different, very different. We all work for ourselves, which is kind of a weird thing that has happened over the years. It wasn't immediately apparent. But, yeah, I think with four, there is kind of a bit of safety in that you can, there tend to be pairings and the pairings kind of change with the seasons.

24:06You know, clashes for sure. But no big fights? There was never a big fight over the years? Oh, there were a few. What was the biggest and what was it about? Jesus. I'm like, oh my God, people listen to this. I have to hide this in my algorithm. I'll never be able to go home at Christmas. I would say the biggest fight I remember my older sister we used to really butt heads and she was like stronger than me I was quite a little runt and I would come home from school I'd take off my shoes I always wanted my feet on the ground so the shoes came off as soon as I came in she was in her Doc Martin phase and the shoes would stay firmly on and so I remember she was always quite physical with me like she'd be battering me and I never really fought back because I genuinely thought you know what it's like kind of pointless I knew that I was out matched or whatever but I remember this one incident where we were in the kitchen and this had obviously been building and building.

25:20And I remember my best friend at the time had a younger brother and I obviously had been telling her about this pattern. And she was like, babe, I torment him. And the only reason I stopped was when he stood up to me. She was like, from the flip side, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, you just need to show your teeth and get stuck in and it will change the dynamic. I was like, okay. So I was kind of being, you know, G'd up for this Incoming event Whenever that might happen Anyway It happened And I remember being in the like Corner of our kitchen And she was like at me And I just Switched I switched and I like Went nuts and I I don't fully recall what I did But I didn't have my shoes on So I couldn't kick her shins And so I remember getting her hands And like turning her hands hands like this until she was on her knees in the kitchen and and then I kind of like came to and was like shit and she got up and she was like I have a piano exam on Friday mom is gonna kill you and I thought oh shit and she went to her room and then I remember running to her room afterwards with ice to try and like help her with what I might have done to her hands and she was like your and anyway it did slightly change the game for me and also it made me realize oh maybe I do have a bit of bite in me it empowered you has that been a lesson for life do you think um yeah you are you do stand up you are I do it's taken time and at school how are you doing or normal school are you okay yeah normal school grand giddy I would say look undiagnosed but it's the signs are there i would say adhd i was giddy it was always like ah she's great crack and she's very bright and she's very smart which she's quite disruptive and like she can make it a little difficult for other people's learning all this you say this and this is the you that we see that we still see yes that that you we love the crack but clearly underneath there is this this on this self-doubt this insecurity that you've been masking through almost an exaggerated version of the crack.

27:42Yes. And you've then been helped by Laura to stand up for yourself with your sister twisting the hands back so that her failure to be a concert pianist I met her the other day and she's still banging on about it. You ruined her life. But there we are. She's got four kids. I think she gets it now. Can I tell you having four children is no substitute for being a concert pianist playing Madison Square Gardens. I'm so sorry. I mean, four kids. Is that what life's about? Thought you were a proper feminist. Four kids. To actually offer that up as the solution to your sister's problems. No, I'm saying she will understand the wildness of feral children in a kitchen.

28:24I'm only being playful, of course. I know you are.

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29:10So, at school Yes You then go to a secondary school, is it the same school? No, different school Are there boys at the second school? Boys at both Oh, both? Yeah So when's your first crush? Which I think was my mum's, like, very conscious thing But she was like, we're your four girls And she, her kind of experience was That girls who went to, like, single-sex schools Became kind of obsessed with how special boys were where she's like, if you know that they stink, then, you know, it's fine. And so what was your first interaction with boys? What did you make of boys? Oh, I remember. So obviously there were a few lads who were at Irish dancing, but they were generally transpired to be not of my persuasion.

29:56However, one of my best... What does that entirely mean? They weren't girls either or they weren't interested in girls? That one, yeah. And like some of my best friends, but I remember one pal who, his brother, oh my God. I was absolutely mad about it. Like this was the first. Actually, no, I did have a crush before this, but it was like he was, this was love. Like he was born on the 23rd of June, which is the same birthday as my dad, which happened to be the same birthday as my mother's father. Oh my God. So I thought, hang on. I think Raymond Maloney might be the love of my life because it stood to reason, you know.

30:42Oh, my God. So, anyway. What did he have? What do you mean? What did he have? Well, he was tanned for a start, which was, like, very exotic to me, obviously. And he was sporty and he was kind of wild. You know, he was wild and he was good crack. Same sort of age or a year old? Exactly the same age he was in my class. but he was like the hot boy in school. So it was never, I wasn't in the... Does he know about it? Well, he knows now, but did he know about it then? I mean, I'd say he knew about it because I was friends with his brother and it was like, oh my God, we all have to go. You know, it was easy to kind of ship us all together.

31:17And so, yeah, I'd say he was aware. I don't know that it was reciprocal. So what was your first proper boyfriend? First proper boyfriend... The first holding hands and feeling. He was like a couple of years older, I would say. And I had really not been like, I was a late bloomer. And I think I just had never really, I was like, very into Irish dancing. I was not bothered. and then I think I kind of bloomed over the summer and was like, this is a new hell that I wasn't quite comfortable with, truthfully. And also echoes off that, oh, hang on, I'm not quite ready for this. Like, I didn't know this was coming.

32:06So how old are you at this age? I'm leaving certain years, so like 17 probably. Oh, so you are quite a late developer and he's then 18 or 19. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I had kissed a few boys at the Gaelthac and at parties, but I never had a, like, thing. Yeah. And what happened? Did it develop into a relationship? Yeah, yeah, we were together for years. On, off, on, off, on, off. It was quite, like, it was kind of first love,

32:35intoxicating and toxic and all of the things. My wife comes from Irish heritage. Her family come from County Cork. and as I recall contraception for young girls was a big issue and a big problem yeah was it a problem or issue for you or had things changed by you know we're talking about the year 2000 I mean it was available and I remember my mum having the conversation oh she told you the facts of life did she? yeah she was actually there was a lot of openness actually in our family and sometimes I would do that I'd be like let's talk about periods guys long before I had mine because that was it was safe to talk about it when it wasn't relevant to me and so I I often liked to kind of push people to their edge of comfort um but she yeah I think she was aware I mean terrified that any of us would get pregnant don't come home with a bun in the oven you know this was the kind of like general like her job as a mother she would have felt like she had failed had she not prepared us for that.

33:45Like I was on the pill, which sent me absolutely doolally. Oh, side effect. Like I was like a lunatic. Really? So I stopped taking it. Is that a well-known thing? I think it is a thing, but it's just accepted as a given for women because what is the other option? Well, there is another option, but you know, most of the side effects of contraceptive are held by the woman, whether it's a coil, whether it's discomfort or whatever it is. So I think the general consensus was, well, you can be batshit crazy or you can get pregnant. Choose your flavour. So you weren't a bit batshit crazy at this time.

34:20I would say I was, yeah, highly emotional. Tell us about the eating problems that you had at this time. When did they start and what have you now worked out as the root cause and how did you come through it? When did it start? It started, I would say, I was fifth year in school. so 16 um and it started very casually like I would say I was dancing I was completely unaware of my body as anything other than uh like instrument to help me dance like I kind of I didn't see it as anything that anyone was looking at it was just a thing that I got to use and I had an injury from dancing so I had to take time off and I think I was so frightened in many ways by the space by the fact that that was my everything really and so I look I kind of link that as the starting point but I think in Hein like in I used it before then just in a way that I wasn't aware of.

35:33I was a very picky eater as a kid. I would sit at the table and like not want to finish my dinner and my mum would have to reheat my dinner a number of times until I finished my dinner. And so it did become again a kind of like tool I think that I used without realizing what I was doing. And then it just kind of caught hold I think and I used it as a way to I don't know I suppose to shrink my world a bit so that sense of being thrust out of the nest I think the obsession and fixation and preoccupation with food in out abstaining and purging and body image at the same time or and yeah they're connected and I think I grew like I developed in what felt like overnight.

36:28I stopped dancing and suddenly everything that had been kind of kept at bay happened overnight and it felt like I was out of control. And I think ultimately an eating disorder, an addiction serves to at least give you the illusion of controlling something or escaping the fear around not being able to control something. So you're trying to control your body? body I'm trying to control my world I suppose like if I am so fixated on this then I don't have to worry about what I'm going to do when I grow up who I'm going to be with where I'm going where I'm going to live how I'm going to like build myself up to like become an adult and as a consequence of this you lose weight what happens what is the result of it yeah you lose weight or you don't if you're binging and purging I kind of so you were both what we now call anorexic yeah and there was bulimia as well Where you eat and reject what you've eaten.

37:26And how long did this go on for? It went on for, in total, 15 years. What, at this early stage, did your parents think about it and what did they do about it? Well, they didn't know for a really long time. But there was an appearance change, was there or not? No, not initially. The appearance change would have happened when I had gone off travelling and I was kind of, any of the stability, I suppose, of home was gone and I had nobody watching in ways. And also I think it escalated at times when I went away because again, this facade and this identity that I built up of being like a bad little bitch who can do anything, I was very brave, I was adventurous, masked a sense of like homesickness that just did not sit well with me homesickness was for weaklings was for you know I was a worldly woman I had ideas and I had like I wanted a big life and so the idea of crying home to your parents with homesickness was not a thing so I rejected any of the deeper feelings that I had around my fear of the world I suppose did you have therapy I mean I had therapy for seven years and...

38:45In a nutshell, what was the conclusion? I mean, I think in a nutshell, it was... It is control. I don't think it can be traced back to any one thing. I think there's a susceptibility. Like, in college, I did my... This is Dublin. You went to Dublin University. I went to DIT. And you did business studies on that. I did business studies, yes. and for my thesis, because I was already aware, and I love fashion, so I read a lot of fashion magazines and I was already kind of at the, you know, I was deep in it and I, my thesis was an exploration into media consumption and its effect on disordered eating.

39:26And so I was very curious. I knew that I didn't want to be stuck with this thing, but I also was aware that it had... Were you sharing this with anybody else, the problem? No. Did you share it with your mother? your father the boyfriend no it was very secret which is a big part of I guess the shame in it that it becomes this kind of um yeah also I wasn't ready I think in order to say it out loud you need to know that there will be a extra eyes on you in terms of your behavior but also a desire you would think from people who love you to want to help you so it's easier to yeah if you if you share it you need to be I think ready to have it looked at and I and I wasn't I was very fond of it in many ways.

40:17Ah it was your companion you were controlling your life so this happens from 15 16 up till you're about 30 years of age and when you decide to get to grips with it when do you start the therapy do you self-refer yourself how does all how do these problems get solved? Well I My parents sent me, briefly, there's a show, The Late Late Show, and there was a guy on it, and they talked a lot about child psychology. Because, look, I had seen Karen Carpenter. We listened to the Carpenter's at home. I had seen whatever stumbled across that biography, and then I was aware of anorexia as a thing that could kill you.

40:51I was aware of the seriousness of it, but I think most people thought of it as a kind of, you know, teenage. age girls want to look cute like what's the problem instead of it that being the symptom of something deeper driving that behavior i suppose um but my parents had seen on the late late show this um the merino clinic i think it was called it was placed in dublin that was quite an alternative approach to um eating disorders and so i had gone there but again i realized in hindsight But I had zero interest. I would go in and be like, Jesus, these are bad. Like, these guys are sick. I shouldn't be wasting their time.

41:35So I just wasn't ready. I wasn't ready. And by the time, I suppose, you know, you hit your rock bottom. For me, that was after I had my daughter because it was almost like, oh, I do not want to. So you took this into your marriage. Sorry. I had switched my eating disorder to work. So the same driving force was just aimed in a different direction and had been for... Just complete the eating disorder then before it becomes another obsession is what you're telling us. So before your marriage, when do you get on top of the eating disorder so you're no longer throwing up or no longer fearing you're going to become anorexic?

42:16How long did that last? So I thought... I remember reading a thing that said it took 14 days for the body to regulate after a binge and a purge. And I was like, I was writing, I was styling, I was working for myself. I was working seven days a week. I was like, I do not have time for this shit. And so I just, in my mind, just gave it up. And so all of the energy and attention and fixation just shifted to work, which was, you know, more lucrative. and people clapped for me and I have a wonderful career that was driven slightly by the manic kind of focus. I'm going to ask once more and then we can leave it.

43:00You obviously have thought about this. You had seven years of therapy. It has two patterns to it. There's first the eating disorder and then there is the work obsession. You have connected the two, in fact, conflated them. You're telling me they're the same thing. what I would like to know is you must have thought about what was there in your childhood your nature your parenting that brought this about you've told me the symptoms and you've told me how you wanted to control things what I'm asking you is why I mean I feel like I answered it I feel like it's too easy to go that happened to me on this day I did not have there was no big event there was no big trauma with a capital t as they'd say i think that i was a deeply sensitive child and that as a result things that felt manageable for many people felt huge for me and then this became my kind of accidental choice of coping mechanism and it grew legs okay i'll accept that i knew your honor the first person i knew who had anorexia was a girl who was an actress okay who appeared in a show of mine playing Alice in Wonderland.

44:15And essentially we went to the second series and she wanted to do the second series and she therefore didn't want her breasts to develop. She didn't want to grow up. She was 13, 14, 15. And so she did it in order to stay as a child actress. That was what triggered it. And then it became an issue for her. So I was looking for something obvious like that. And what you are giving me is that you were this shy, somewhat self-doubting person in your head, but had created for yourself a carapace of the girl with crack. The girl we now see. If we follow you as I do on Insta, wow, you are doing this in spades every single day.

44:56Hey, hey, here I am. But inside you, you now are a settled person. Yeah. Now, how did that come about? Well, I think, I suppose I struggled for so long with like, oh my God, is that a... creation is that like a false person I suppose so there was definitely like the the two sides of the coin and I suppose I now feel like they're they're the same like I'm I'm deeply sensitive and I'm also great crack and actually I think maybe instead of trying to shove away my sensitivity trying to like I hated it I felt like that sensitivity made me weak made me needy made me like uh smaller I suppose um when in actual fact I think my sensitivity allows me to attune to people in a way that makes me good at my job that makes I can help people feel comfortable the things that I hated in myself or that I didn't want to be part of me I have welcomed and so they haven't overtaken me I thought if I admitted oh my god I am quite sensitive that I'd literally melt into a puddle in of tears whereas actually what I realize is that that's quite a strength it's a part of me it's not the whole part of me how do you ensure that the self-compassionate you, which is now the you, understanding yourself better and appreciating the kindness and the empathy shown to you by others, doesn't become self-indulgence?

46:40That's a very good question. And I think I probably did do that for a couple, like when I was deep in it, I was, like I've got an addictive personality. I was basically addicted to healing myself. And then I realised that essentially I was pressing pause on actually living and undermining my ability to be in the world and take knocks and come back from them. And I think there's a woman called Glennon Doyle who has a book called Untamed and she talks about parenting, which I think can apply to anybody really. But I remember thinking of it as this snowplough parenting. So this generation attempting to do or not do the wrongs that had been done to them by parents who were not as emotionally or psychologically attuned.

47:32Like we'll show you what like modern day parenting looks like. And she's like, actually, this snowplow where you're essentially going in front of your kid, clearing every obstacle out of the way so that they can have a smooth transition. and there's something beautiful in the intention of that wanting to protect your kid from pain and hurt and falls and all of the things and then you realize you rob the kid of the resilience of knowing that they can be kicked that they can get back up that they can fail that they can learn that they are not made of glass and I think my being in touch with my sensitivity and I was a little indulged.

48:14I started to go, oh my God, I just need to keep away from anything that might disrupt my homeostasis, that might like rattle me. And actually what I lost was like that appetite and that reminder that I love getting knocked down and getting back up, that that's actually living. So you can kind of do the healing to the detriment of living. and I want the scrapes and I want the stories. I don't want to sit at home in meditation pose thinking I've got it all figured out. I'm being at peace, but I may as well be dead.

49:03The off, on, off, on, off, eventually off, off boyfriend. Yeah. We next get, are there a few people before we meet your husband? Well, I go travelling. I'm like living my life in Dublin. I'm kind of, you know, doing my thing. Give us the best and the worst travel moments because you do quite a lot of travelling. I did do quite a lot of travelling. I went to, so I spent a year in Australia. And honestly, again, now I look back, I'm like, I really hope neither of my two daughters follow in my footsteps. I was with four, there was four of us in total and we bought a van that was obviously completely unvetted from these lads who had driven the arse out of it.

49:46It was hardly fit for the road called Scotty. We like pooled our resources up in Cairns in the East Coast. Scotty, a yellow van, we were like, yeah, this is a bit of us. It was basically a high ace with a mattress in the back and we slept for three months up and down the coast. And we would like park up in all sorts of places. And rather than pay the camping fees, we would just park up on the side of the road, outside somebody's house. They could have been a serial killer. You know, nobody came for us, which I don't know whether that says more about us or them. But we would just like drape a towel, open the door because it was roasting, open the door of the high ice van, four women with legs dangling out of the thing so as not to sweat to death.

50:34And we would go to sleep. Great. Was that the best of it? Oh, sorry. Or the worst of it? That was the best. I think that was the best of it, you know. I think it was the best of it, too. It was this feeling of not, like being kind of invincible and unaware of danger. It has that echo of your very first memory. Yeah. Being in the car with the caravan behind you. Yeah. With the mattress in that where people slept. Like quite free bird, you know. Free bird. Yeah. So you come back to Ireland and eventually you find a sort of career of kinds. Yeah, that's what my parents say. And eventually you kind of work.

51:05And when did you come to London? I came to London in 2012, maybe, over and back. Kind of pretending I lived in London. Moved officially when we got married in 2014. But up until that point, I was like, had signed with an agent, pretended I live here, would get on the plane, come over. Yeah, yeah, I can do a meeting. I was like, but I couldn't afford it. And you were into fashion in the beginning of presenting. I was, yeah. And when does the, your husband is called? Roy. And where do we meet him? We meet him in a pub through friends. One of my best friends and his best friends met, married. And yeah.

51:43And how old are you both at that stage? I think I'm 29 because I remember he like threw a 30th birthday party for me, which felt like, oh. This is it. I think this is it. Can you remember the first encounter with him? I can. What was it like at the moment? So I remember meeting him in a bar. So I lived in Dublin, upstairs from, like, opposite a pub called Sheehan's. And my friend rang and she's like, we're downstairs. I looked out the window. I was waiting for a friend who was visiting from Madrid. And she was coming with Lomo ham. I thought charcuterie was the height, the style. And I was like, this now is a bit of me.

52:21I'm basically Carrie Bradshaw. She's bringing me cheese and meat in her backpack. And we're going to drink wine. like who the f*** am I and I looked out the window he's there with my two friends and they're like oh we're here and he's like a bit awkward I would say and I said I've got like my friends coming she then messaged me to say she was late so I said oh grant I'll come across the road so we came across the road and I thought my god he is mad about himself isn't he I was really like struck by his kind of arrogance and like intrigued but a bit allergic I would say and then anyway we all had a great night collectively together that was kind of spontaneous and raucous and great and then that was it so we exchanged numbers he messaged me the following day was like it was really lovely to meet you and I remember being home going I don't know whether I really like him or I really don't and so I thought fine I didn't really think anything of it Giles six months six months and I remember I was kind of on the scene I didn't I wasn't really interested in anything and then I get a message out of the blue it was a Friday evening I was in the bath and I I think maybe I was kind of like, oh, you know.

53:47And he messaged. He's like, I know this is really out of the blue, but would you like to go for a drink? So I waited a couple of weeks, but I remember him ringing me. Did you not reply to that? I did reply. I said, I'm really busy for the next, like, couple of weeks, but, like, week commencing. Like, let's. Maybe let's do something. Why not? And so, and then I remember him ringing me, and I was like, what? This feels very adult. And confident. I was like, oh, that's kind of bold. In a world where people were, like, lads were hiding behind text messages and all of that sort of thing. I thought, oh, this is ballsy.

54:24So we had organised where to meet. And I remember wanting to cancel because I had a spot. And I was like, I just couldn't be bothered. And I rang my friend. It was on my chin. They're always on the chin, Giles. Sometimes on the nose. Or indeed on the lip. Sore. Painful, those ones. very painful but she was a chin one anyway I I remember wearing a white oversized white shirt like a man's shirt and a striped tights and my friend who had introduced us was like encouraging me maybe to wear to change that outfit and I thought you know what if he's not into it it's like I'm very much for smoking them out early I was over kind of the pretense so I and I had said I really am not in the mood can I just cancel she was like get your arse down the stairs and across to that pub wherever it was and I went in with kind of no expectations truthfully and all of the ideas that I had about him within the space of one gin and tonic had kind of changed completely So I had him as a kind of slightly macho, like, bro.

55:43And he almost immediately just was bright and sensitive and attuned and funny and, like, alive. Like, and I remember him going to the bathroom and I was like, shit. This is not how I saw this day going. And we spent the entire evening together. We went from the pub to another pub, to a restaurant, to another pub. It was like one of those things where we just didn't want it to end. And it felt so kind of comfortable. And that was kind of it. And it was so bizarre to me because I had never had somebody who like actively was like really caring. Like heart on his sleeve kind of. So what he is doing, because you're still in this manic phase, he is touching beyond that to the inner you that's been there all the time that hasn't been recognised before.

56:56Yes. So he sees that. and he gets the reward because how long have you been together? We've been together. It's actually our anniversary on Saturday. So like 16 years later. Lovely. And you have two daughters. Two daughters, yeah. That's the way it goes in your family. Four and eight, yeah. That's the way it goes, yeah, exactly. What does love mean? Are you in love with him still? Yeah. So describe that. What is love? What is love now after 16 years, anniversary on Saturday, two daughters? I think love, I think it changes over the years. But it is, I guess it is being like seen and being held.

57:48And actually, I will often say to him, you know, I kind of need to be adored. Sometimes I want that in my own home, not just on Instagram. I think the idea of actually seeing a person and the things that we think of as natural to them, reminding yourself that they are special. So I think we can overlook and take for granted the things that are inherent to a person. And I and for me, that kind of kindness. And I mean, an example, I went out on Saturday and I when I'm out, I'm out. And it doesn't happen that often. And it was a bottomless brunch and margaritas were had. And the following day I was like, I'm going to sit this one out.

58:38And I said, I'm going to stay in bed. We were due to go for lunch. and he went to the gym and he came back with a juice for me he rang and was like do you want a juice and I said yeah sure and he brought the juice back and he said I got it without lemon and I kind of thought what is he talking about and I was like cool and then it only landed with me afterwards that I had said weeks before oh I've been having these celery and lemon shots and the lemon is making me break out and Christine is allergic to citrus and maybe there's a sensitivity to citrus and he remembered even when I didn't remember myself and I think that in a very humdrum thing to me is being held in someone's mind and heart and being cared for in an everyday way I guess.

59:27I love it being held and being heard it's lovely yeah we're coming to the end now what's it like having red hair? Well, it's wonderful now. Or was it sometimes hell when you were young? Well, you know, you kind of want to be like everyone else. And when I was growing up, Britney Spears was the epitome of sexy, glamorous, fabulous. Are there advantages, though, to having red hair? I mean, you get caught when you're mitch at school. So I was the only one that would be tracked down. And I remember tackling my maths teacher afterwards and be like, are you joking me? You knew we were a crew together.

1:00:06And she was like, you're the only one I could identify from 150 yards. So, but also, like, I think that's made me feel quite special in ways. So it was initially a very, it was alien and awful and also special, which is quite a heady mix as a youngster. But I, it's great. Do your parents feel you've settled down? And achieved? I think they do. I think they're relieved and also always a little bit terrified. But they will say things like, we did not know, you know, how it would end. And I'd be thinking, underneath all the madness, like, there was no doubt in my mind. I was, like, I had shit to do.

1:00:51And you've built an incredible freelance career. Yeah, I guess so. As a broadcaster, presenter, television host. Working for everyone. Always on. Author. Always on. fashion stylist fashion guru absolutely I mean I have to say I adore following you thanks you give me energy every morning you are my daily boost who needs a sugar rush when Angela Scanlon is available he's in the hour okay three quick questions now from your early years particularly but really from anywhere in your life when I say this phrase you've got to give me what comes into your head immediately a moment of joy Angela a moment of joy okay being in my granny's house with all of my sisters and my uncle Sean who's no longer with us and he would open the sunroof and we would all crawl all over and out of the sunroof and we would drive down the hairy road which was this tiny little road with grass in the middle of it that we named the hairy road and it was we were high on Fanta and Whambars and we were joyful.

1:01:55Yeah, I love it. You're often on the move. Often, I am always on the move. A moment of sadness that comes into your head.

1:02:07My, the death of my granny, my mum's mum. Cecilia, we called her Dolly. Well, we called her granny, but she was known as Dolly. And the day that she died, I have such a clear memory of that, of knowing, being picked up by our neighbour, being brought home, stopping at a shop to get a card, like this weird chain of events where nothing was being said, but something had changed. And then I remember going home and meeting my mum at the door. And I think Margaret had told us just before then that granny had died suddenly. And, and I saw my mum, I think as a kind of human, I suppose, like as a she was heartbroken and it I think it was the first time that I saw a crack I suppose she was the captain of the ship and the captain can't cry you know um so I think I now I'm like all I want to do is hug that version of her who really needed to be held by someone.

1:03:27She had two brothers. She was the only daughter. And I think that, you know, changed her massively. And what in your life have you learnt? What's life taught you, Angela Scanlon?

1:03:44That, although I want, and like there's themes here, like I want a big life, I want it exciting, I want like zest and I don't know, confetti at the graveside. That actually the kind of small, quiet, intimate things in the everyday are the things that really make up a life and the only thing that really matters. Well, I think where you are now, unless you've fooled us all, you've achieved that. Because in your work, you give us that zest. I shall certainly bid your graveside with the confetti. Thank you. Making whoopee for you. You've done all that. But at the same time, I think through your husband and through your children and your new attitude to the world, you've also given yourself the solid peace.

1:04:47so I'm going to cry now but thank you very much thank you lovely

1:04:58oh gosh I love Angela Scanlon you're not surprised I'm hoping you loving her too as well though I know believe it or not I've been told that I can irritate some people apparently I'm Marmite some people find me incredibly annoying the way I speak the way I am They assume because the way I speak, I have a certain attitude to life. Some people really loathe me, despise me. And, well, I'm just thinking maybe there are some people who don't like Angela's effervescence. Actually, I don't think there will be. I think there's a difference between her and me. Some people don't like me. Everybody loves Angela Scanlon.

1:05:34And I'm not surprised. I do recommend Get Her Grip. It's really funny. That's her podcast. And I do recommend her on Instagram. Do follow her there. And also, actually, follow me on Instagram. I'm on Instagram at Giles Brandreth. And the Rosebud Podcast is on Instagram at Rosebud Podcast. And I'm old school. I'm still on X. Are we on TikTok? Yes. We're on TikTok. And we're on TikTok. We also have on TikTok people who aren't us but pretend to be us. We've got, yeah, oh, yeah, there are people doing sort of Me Too versions of us. Maybe I shouldn't say Me Too. What's it? Oh, do you know, I'll just let you into a little secret.

1:06:19Because we're in the studio, and on Fridays it's just me, my producer, Harriet Jane, is here, she just texts me messages mid-flow, and I've just received a text saying, you are rambling like a lunatic. Unfortunately, we don't have HR as part of the Roseblood organisation, otherwise I'd be going straight to HR and saying to them, I am mid-performance. I am of a certain age and quite sensitive. And my producer, without a hi, a bye, a thumbs up or anything, has just sent me in capital letters, you are rambling like a lunatic. But I've got the message. I better go straight. I'm going straight to the email.

1:07:02We have heard from Lisa Del Vecchio. Dear Giles and Harriet, Firstly, thank you for your wonderful podcast. I laugh, cry, learn, and am completely engaged while listening. Giles, you make me laugh so much sometimes. Thank you for that. Lisa, can I really thank you for that? I need a bit of a boost because, you know, Harriet sometimes has to be harsh. I understand. I bring you perhaps not my earliest memory, but a significant one. I was around six or seven years of age. My family had moved from Australia to Washington, D.C., as my father was a diplomat. Already feeling like a fish out of water, I was humiliated by my schoolteacher in front of the entire class for having an untidy desk.

1:07:50So incensed was this teacher, Mrs Brill, that she flipped my desk over and emptied its contents onto the floor. Clearly this dramatic event had an impact on me because I am now 61 and still talking about it. I've also had some wonderful teachers especially Mr. Witty who nurtured my love of English teachers can leave a mark on a person both positive and negative thank you again for bringing so many wonderful stories to us all well thank you Lisa and I think there's something quite interesting about the names of your teachers it's called nominative determinism where the name indicates how you are.

1:08:37There was a judge, literally called Judge Judge. And famously in the Philippines, there was a cardinal called Cardinal Sin. Gosh, he spent a lot of time in confession. Look, you had Mrs. Brill and Mr. Witty. And quite rightly, Mr. Witty outwitted Mrs. Brill, who scarred you. Oh, there's another text come so true. This is from Harriet. She says, I can't believe you're still wittering on. This should have ended six minutes ago. Well, it's ending now. So I'm saying that to you, Harriet. I am bringing this to a conclusion now. But I do want to say thank you so much, Lisa, for that very interesting, actually really interesting, recollection from your childhood of the day the desk was upturned.

1:09:19Well, I've enjoyed Angela Scanlon. I've enjoyed your company. And if you want our company, as you know, we're at the Edinburgh Fringe all of August. And do come and see us there. You can actually meet us after any of the shows. you can find out from our website which is simply rosebudpodcast.co.uk where we'll be for the whole of August. For the next few weeks though till we go to Edinburgh we'll still be coming from London from our home at Grosvenor House on Park Lane. But from me, Charles Brandreth from my producer Harriet Jane who is back in the building and from Alec Cadell who edits the video version of Rosebud for YouTube where available at the Rosebud Podcast on YouTube from all of us, all the team.

1:10:03Thank you very much for being part of the Rosebud World. Until next time, cue the music.

1:10:32Thank you.