More Rosebud - Ghosts Special with Jim Howick and Kiell Smith-Bynoe

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1:09This is more Rosebud. I hope it's going to be a spooktacular episode. I'm saying that for a reason. Two reasons, actually. I'm recovering from Halloween. How was Halloween for you, Harriet Jane? I absolutely love Halloween. Yeah, I love people knocking on my door and I love giving them things and seeing what costumes they're wearing. Yeah. Yeah, no, I enjoy it. And you live in North London. And is it a thing in North London, in your street? Did you have treats prepared? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, I don't know. It all happens quite early because the kids are quite little. So you get all prepared.

1:48You know, you've got to make sure you've got some sort of bucket full of Haribos or whatever. And then they all come and you see their parents kind of hovering at the end of the path. It's all quite organised and quite restrained. With the trick or treat element, I've never quite understood. We have the treats ready. Yeah. But what are the tricks? Who is performing the trick? Well, I think the idea is, but it really doesn't happen round our way, thank goodness, is if you don't give a treat, then they can give you a trick, which is something not very nice. Like they might, I don't know, throw an egg at your front door or scare you.

2:26but that doesn't happen round our way because it's all these sweet little primary school children with their mums. Because I was quite confused years ago. Years ago I was quite confused and I thought the trick or treat was you could offer when the doorbell rang, you could open the door and give them a trick or a treat. Oh, that might be true as well. So I would open the door and go, Boo! Yeah. To see them jumping out of their skin. I don't think I ever did that, but in my head. Yeah, and some people's houses that you'd go to, because I did it with my kids, you know, the house inside would be spooky and the person answering the door would be spooky.

2:57I think it's fun if you do that. Years ago, Michelle, my wife and I, we went to Mexico at the time of Halloween. Oh, the Day of the Dead. And there they take the Day of the Dead very seriously. And everybody goes... How lovely, I'd love to do that. It is lovely. And what I like about it is that they go to the graveyard, genuinely, the family goes with a picnic, and they sit at the grave of a loved one, you know, granny's grave, and they sit there, they get out their picnic, and there's ammages and their wine, and they, you know, celebrate the late lamented. Oh, I think that's absolutely brilliant.

3:29And is that on Halloween or on All Souls Day, which is the first? Probably All Souls Day the next day, I think. I haven't really got into it in a big way. Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons I have slight reservations, having been brought up in London in the 1950s, for us at this time of year, what we were looking forward to was Bonfire Night, Guy Fawkes Day. now that's fallen into rather abeyance now when i was a child every street corner you would see a guy fawkes which was like a stuffed a guy a guy yeah yeah i mean that's fallen into abeyance for a few reasons i think oh well because we don't like the idea of burning people i think we don't have many bonfires because of health and safety and air pollution and all that sort of thing so in london you can't have a big old bonfire going and then i think people are a bit squeamish about the idea of burning an effigy aren't they um but it was a big big thing wasn't it yeah but then they saw the wicker man and they probably thought oh let's not do that or you know it's it's it's a bit spooky isn't it but they still have fireworks displays and you used to raise the money for your fireworks by going out with your guy and you would say penny for the guy yeah penny for the guy i remember that and the idea was you got a penny and then when you had enough you could buy some sparklers.

4:46Do you have a favourite firework? Do you like a Catherine wheel? In fact, a Catherine wheel is rather a grim thing to think of because it's Catherine. It's called a Catherine wheel because it's St. Catherine who was put on these, spinning round and round and round. Isn't that awful? I like, what do I like? I like a big, you know, in a big firework display. You never have this in your back garden because it's enormous, you know. But I've got my favourite colour. I like the ones that are blue and gold you know i like the classy one like you know they have at the end of disney films or yeah but um i like a sparkler i love a sparkler you can write your name i like writing my name before the sparklers come to an end and also lighting a sparkler from somebody else's sparkler there was also i love them all of that was good yeah well you mentioned the film wicker man yes we can talk about a film now we are because the current film for halloween is this film based on the TV series which I enjoyed watching called Ghosts.

5:49Yes. Which came, it's kind of in the tradition of Horrible Histories. Yes, it's done by the Horrible Histories team, in fact. So it's a brilliant TV show which I'm sure lots of you watch because it is funny, it's moving, it is entertaining and it's also one of those shows which there aren't enough of these days which is genuinely good for family viewing. So you can watch it with your children and adults find it funny too. By the way, do you believe in ghosts? I don't not believe in them. I think it's my view. I don't think I've ever had a ghost experience but I do believe in... I just believe the world isn't quite as matter of fact as we like to think.

6:38Exactly. I always feel that whenever I see a dead body which is occasionally I wonder where the energy went and could it have gone somewhere else I have had I think in the past but I'm sure it's just a mental aberration I think I've seen uh one or two of our cats after they've died oh that's an actual thing I mean when I lost my cat I saw him all the time yeah because you're so used to them and and you miss them yeah so that's in your mind's eye I think so. And I think maybe ghosts is a bit of that. But then, does that mean they're not real? No, I think something in your mind's eye is real. You know that comes from Hamlet, my mind's eye, that phrase?

7:21Not used before then. Shakespeare was rather good, wasn't he? Lots of ghosts in Shakespeare's plays. Yeah, absolutely. People, I think, felt ghosts were more real once upon a time than they do now. I think death felt more present to people then. I mean, I think everyone would have lost children. and people would have been around death. Very often, you know, dead bodies in their homes. I mean, in that film Hamnet, you know, I think one of the most moving bits, or in the book certainly, is when she has to make a shroud for her son, you know, out of cloth. And people would have done all this stuff, preparing their own dead and, yeah.

8:04Well, I read somewhere that 150 years ago, there was not one family in the British Isles that had not been affected by death, in the sense of a member of that family when young. Oh, I see. Not one family. Yeah, of course. Well, that's extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, people would lose multiple children. I mean, we are very, very distanced from death, and it's very sanitized for us, isn't it? And I think ghosts have become comical figures, probably dating back. There are many amusing ghosts, much before Oscar Wilde and the Canterville ghost. Oh. Which is one of his stories. Anyway, we are going to meet a couple of ghosts.

8:44Or are we meeting? Who are we meeting today? You've arranged these guests. Yes. Tell us all about these special guests for Rosebud. Yes. These are ghostly Halloween guests. Yes. So we've got two of the stars of ghosts, both the TV show and the film. so the TV show was on for many years on the BBC and I'm sure lots and lots and lots of you have watched and loved it and as you know if you watch it it's about a couple played by Charlotte Ritchie and Kyle Smith-Bino and Kyle is one of our guests today and they play a human couple called Alison and Mike who move into a kind of dilapidated big sort of manor house.

9:28I think they rent it. And it is full of ghosts. And Alison, Charlotte Ritchie, can see the ghosts, but Mike, Kyle, can't. Oh. And the ghosts... Is there a reason for this? Maybe there is. Maybe you don't need to tell me. Yeah, well, it creates a fun dynamic. I can see that. Because she's terrified and he's wondering what's wrong with you. Very funny. And it creates some really good comedy. So he's walking across a room, probably walking through the ghosts. Yeah, and he talks about that in this interview. And then the ghosts themselves are all from different times in history, because it is the Horrible Histories creators that made it.

10:13And as they, I think, again, they explain in this interview, at one point they thought of having many more ghosts. They thought of having, you know, roundheads and cavaliers, and, you know, they were going to have a whole range of historical. They actually pared it down. So I think there's maybe, I can't remember how many there are. Let's say there are seven or eight. There is, and one of them is played by Jim Howick, who is another of our guests today. He plays a retired scout master called Pat. And is he not also the co-writer? He's got an arrow through his neck. That's amusing. The whole time, and a scout uniform.

10:46That's great fun. They all look very funny. A co-writer. Anyway, so we've got somebody who isn't a ghost and somebody who is a ghost, but they are two interesting actors. And I thought I should begin the conversation not by, so you don't need to know anything about ghosts, or indeed to have seen the film or to have seen the TV series, to find these two contrasting people, slightly different generations, different backgrounds, telling us their story. So this is Rosebud with a ghost and a non-ghost, a teacher and a scoutmaster, a live teacher and a dead scoutmaster with an arrow through his neck.

11:24Yes, and the film is called Ghosts, the Possession of Button House and it's out now. And I reckon it's a really good thing to go and see. With the family. Yeah, or on your own. On your own. Or with a ghost. You could keep a chair, you could, you know, book a seat for your, one of your dear departed friends or relations. Well, I've known people, indeed I've known some well-known people, who after, I'm thinking of two of them, who after their wives died for some years went on laying the table as though the person was still there. So that does happen. But getting an extra seat, as you know, we were told, when I think it was Nicholas Holmes talking about his grandfather, how his grandfather, Winston Churchill, when he went to the theatre, always bought three seats, one for himself, one for his daughter, who used to come with him and the third seat for his hat and gloves.

12:22Lovely. But it could have been for the ghost. Yeah, so I might take my mum to see this film. Lovely idea, actually. She would enjoy that. I think she'd really, really enjoy it. I'm now thinking, actually, ghosts have played a big part in our literature, haven't they? I'm talking about the Canterville ghost. But, of course, A Christmas Carol is a ghost story. I mean, the ultimate Victorian ghost story. And, as we were saying, Shakespeare's full of ghosts. Well, we're going to be full of ghostly fun and two very interesting individuals on Rosebud today. So enjoy our ghostly post-Halloween treat with Jim Howick and Kyle Smith-Bino.

12:58Cue the music.

13:18When you get to my age, you will find you think a lot about death. Every night I go to bed and through my head comes the line from Hamlet, all that lives must die, passing through nature to eternity. So I'm very pleased to have two young people with me today, at least younger, and they are professionally in the death game because they know all about ghosts. There are two of them. The older one, though you couldn't tell from looking at them, but the older one is Jim Howick, born, am I right, on the 14th of May, 1979? That's correct, yes. The younger one is Kyle Smith-Bino, born on the 5th of March, 1989.

14:02There's ten years between you, but you are allies and colleagues. Can you remember when you first met, how you first met? Yeah. In the audition, right? In the audition. Yeah. I had a chemistry test with Charlotte Ritchie this was before that this was your very first oh the first very first I wasn't in the chemistry test I wasn't there I do remember now because it was in that long room yeah and there were about seven people on laptops yeah at the back yeah it was like a shipping container I was like is this a co-working space and what was going on what was the audition what was the chemistry test the audition was like a classic sort of mic goof around.

14:46I can't remember exactly what the scene was, but it was, yeah. I'd seen Kyle in like a few things and certainly in staff, which we were all big fans of. And I wasn't at the chemistry read because I was too embarrassed because we've got actors of your caliber and Charlotte's caliber and the other actors who were involved in the chemistry read. And I was embarrassed that they had to go through all that. Let me start with you, Jim. You are here because you are the co-creator of Ghosts, which I, with my children and grandchildren, watched five series of, and you've now made this big movie. You are the co-creator of it.

15:27Yes. And what part do you play? I play Pat Butcher, who is a scout leader who was accidentally murdered by one of his patrol in 1984 with a bow and arrow. Death is central to this. I mean, in the new film, we are reminded we're all going to die. This is what this is about. This is about death. And what happens after death, we become ghosts. So you are Pat Butcher, the ghost. And Kyle, just describe the part you play in Ghosts, for anyone who isn't familiar with it. I play Mike Cooper, who was an owner of the house in the series. Indeed, I remember that's the whole basis of the series. if you're in America.

16:15And now we, since the series, we have moved out and we are no longer the owners of the house, but we have a fondness and a love for it. How does one play being alive as opposed to being a ghost? What is the subtle difference in the playing style? Can't eat. Yeah, you can't eat. The great thing about being a ghost is you don't get to handle any props. You don't get to change your costume. Do you like that you don't get to change a costume? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Oh, that's not familiar. Did you do any research into actually ghosts? No. I don't think so, no. I imagined that you were going to seances and finding out how this really works.

16:57No. Chatting to a few ghosts of the past, getting the ghost of Joan of Arc and Winston Churchill to advise you. It's an interesting point, actually. We did originally, in the pilot, we had a load of ghosts in the house. so we had sort of a drunk a monk who was perpetually drunk we had sort of cavaliers and versus roundheads and this thing going on and it was kind of like a muppet show in every room there was a ghost that would have been in that room we had a chef in the kitchen and that so but apart from the sort of impracticalities of that and the expense we realized quite quickly that we had to just sort of strip it down and make these ghosts the only ghosts in the house we wanted to avoid as many sort of supernatural elements as possible actually apart from passing through walls and stuff.

17:40But things have gone super natural now in the movie. In the movie they have yeah. Yeah we've gone to a new dimension yeah. Yes. Well we'll come back to the movie. Okay. I want to start with you two as phenomena. Yes. And I want to begin with you Jim. Yes. Jim what is your very first memory? I believe it is I had gastroenteritis when I was I think I was about four or something. I was in hospital with it and I remember watching the Pink Panther cartoon in, I had a room, which is kind of weird. It wasn't like a private hospital. It was St. Richard's in Chichester. But I had a TV in the corner and the Pink Panther cartoon was on and it was him sort of dancing in the spotlight.

18:23Yeah. And I thought to myself, I'm going to do that one day. No, I didn't think that. I thought, nurse, help me. I need a LucasAid sport. No, I was ill. You were ill. Yeah, it was kind of trauma. But I think the Pink Panther is quite significant. that is your first recollection. Yeah. Why were you in Chichester? Who were your parents? My parents are Marilyn and Neil Howick. My mother was an NHS receptionist. My father was an electrician. I was born in Chichester and I was brought up just outside Bognor Regis in Aldwick. And how would you characterise your childhood? What kind of childhood is it?

19:01If we were making a movie about your childhood, what would it be? Would it be like a... It was fairly ordinary. It was working class. There was a lot of sort of strong, loud women in the family, which was really fun, actually. A lot of strong, loud women. Yeah, there was lots of aunties and sisters. You had sisters. My grandpa was very matriarchal. I have a sister, one sister. And she's older than you? She's older than me, six years older than me. Oh, so she was one of the strong women. Yeah, and she was kind of like a mum. So by the time I was sort of 10, we never really played with each other because the gauge gap was too great.

19:36but we were very close and um when you say she was like a mum give me an example of her being mum like because you had an actual well she used to tell me when to go to bed she used to like mum never told me to go to bed she did and it was sort of one word bed it was that really and yeah so and there was that and she used to kind of she was i suppose fell into sort of a natural babysitter age and like she would take me on dates when she didn't particularly like the boy she was going on the date with. So she used to sort of pretend to have to sort of chaperone me and really I was just a kind of a patsy for her sort of getting out of the date and not wanting to be on it.

20:17And so it was a sort of very sort of strong matriarchal sort of family. And from your earliest years, give me the sweetest moment that you can recollect from your early childhood before you're ten.

20:32um well my mum and my mum and my sister and my aunt actually they were all into sort of amateur dramatics um and so that was the sort of the theatre I was introduced to and seeing them perform was a regular thing but the first time I saw my mum perform was her she played Nancy in Oliver um yeah and she was murdered by the guy who took me for football training who played Bill Sykes um that was that was traumatic but it was just was it traumatic seeing your mum being murdered on stage not really no because I knew what was coming up I'd seen the film I loved the film but seeing her kind of do her thing shining bright sort of singing and dancing and uh this is before I knew what I wanted to do but I and what was the darkest memory of your early childhood a bleak moment i was bitten by a dog when i was six um in a it was a relative's dog actually it was a sort of distant cousin and uh i was kind of messing around in uh this their car i was in the front seat and the dog i think maybe thought that I was stealing the car and bit me on my leg.

21:47Yeah. And I was quite a small kid. And that was kind of, it was just very incredibly painful and shocking. But I don't think there's, I don't think I sort of suffered any kind of existential sort of mortal darkness until I was sort of beyond the age of 10. Well, come on to those. Yes. We ought to hear about those. But what is there in you now that is the product of being brought up in this matriarchal household? the very fact the first thing you say is I was surrounded by strong women. Yes. From my sister to my mother to my aunties. That's the first thing that comes into your head. Yeah. So what in you today reflects that in your character today?

22:27I think a sense of empathy, a certain sort of patience, and a respect, I think. For people in general or for women in particular? Women in particular, but it wasn't an angry household. It was a chatty household. I think my family are probably better talkers than they are listeners. So I think effective communication from one perspective. How do they get on together, your parents? They're great, yeah, they're still together. They've been together for... But talking at each other rather than listening to them. Yeah, well, my dad's deaf now, so that's the way he's got out of it. So I had a really kind of, I had a really a great childhood.

23:11I can't sort of fault it. My dad was really hands on. You know, he'd come home from work and we used to pretend to be in a band. I remember we used to, when he first bought Gracelands, the album Gracelands by Paul Simon, he would put that on and we'd pretend like he'd have a tennis racket and I'd have chopsticks and set up all the kitchen stalls and pretend we'd play the whole album, pretend to play it. Which is kind of mad when I think about it because he was a busy sort of hands-on spark. He was sort of up in lofts most of the time. Mad but marvellous. Yeah, he was great. And we're still very close and we go to football together.

23:45What team? I count myself very lucky. Tottenham Hotspur. There we are. I think it's time to move on quite quickly. So we bond through the difficulties of this deeply frustrating football team. It's a bond. Kyle, what is your very first memory? Not something for a photograph, but what comes into your head as the first thing you can actually remember? I remember being in a shopping centre with my mum and my nan and having a balloon and after about 40 seconds I let go of it and I remember watching it right to the top of the shopping centre ceiling and I think I was probably about I would have had to have been younger than four.

24:24Often these are quite symbolic these early memories and I can see you with the big panther dancing away but you letting go of the balloon and your whole life, the joy of your life disappearing up into the sky. So who were your nan and your mum? And where were you? Where was this happening? I imagine it was Stratford. Stratford, East London. Yeah. So I grew up in East Ham and Forest Gate. And the only big shopping centres that were around was Stratford Centre. This was before they had the Westfield, long before Westfield, the old Stratford shopping centre. So I imagine it was there because I can't think of where else we would have been that had a shopping centre.

25:00and um yeah my nan Ferreta Spencer she came from Barbados in the early mid-50s um and then her and my granddad lived in Labrack Grove in like a tiny flat with like four people and they'd all come moved over from Barbados together then she worked in a suite factory oh yeah there's a suite factory in Forest Gate called Bards. And she worked there. And then they moved to Forest Gate. And then my mum came over. My oldest uncle came over. And then my nan and granddad had two more kids. So your mother was born in Barbados. Yeah. And then came over to join her parents. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. And who is your mum?

25:45Jenny Bino. Jennifer Bino. And what did she do? What sort of person? She was, she danced first. She was a dancer. She used to dance all around the world. And then she worked for the NHS. She worked at London Ambulance Service at the headquarters in Waterloo in payroll. And she did that for 33 years. And who was your dad? Fitzburn. What? Fitzburn Isaiah Smith, yeah. Great, now say it again. Fitzburn Isaiah Smith. Lovely. Known to many people as many different names. Oh. I didn't know his name was Fitzburn until I was about 14. Oh, how did you discover this? Tell us about him. He sounds intriguing.

26:25How did I discover it? I don't actually know. I know that, like, because my mum called him Frank. So I always thought my dad's name was Frank until I was about 14. I think I saw, like, a letter or, like, some sort of official document. And Frank wasn't on there at all. And, yeah. I knew his middle name was Isaiah because his family called him Zaya. Wow. But then people that he played cricket with called him John. and people at work would call him John as well. Because he was a fine cricketer, wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he played for some big team? He played, I mean, I don't know how big the teams are, but he played for Trafalgar.

27:04That sounds okay. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah, yeah. But he was a lively person. Yeah. He was a driver and a cricketer. When I say he was a lively person, I didn't mean he was a driver and a cricketer. Oh, you mean he had 12 children. He had 12 children. 12 minimum. 12 minimum. Yeah. By a dozen different? No. Eight. Oh. Only eight. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. You spread it out. I mean, that's kind of on average. Yeah. So you have quite a few siblings. You have a dozen siblings. I've got 11. And when did you meet them? I met Patrick when I was five. I met my brother. I was five, and my dad took me to his workplace.

27:44But I didn't know I was meeting my brother. I only found out when Patrick said, who's that, to my dad. And my dad said, this is your brother. So we both found out at the same time. And was that, were you quite relaxed about that? You just took it in your stride? Yeah, I guess. I mean, at home, there was your mum. And did your dad live at home? No, but he was around all the time. But he popped in, he was there, and you felt very much he was there. Did you have any siblings at home? Did you have a brother or sister at home? No, no, no. So I met Patrick when I was five, and I didn't meet my other, the next sibling until I was 14.

28:16Oh my. Yeah. And have you now met them all? Yeah. Well, all of those 12, but apparently there's more. There may have been more. That's a word on the road. What do you feel about this? What's it like to have 11 brothers and sisters? I mean, did you actually get on quite well with them, all of them? Most. Yeah. Yeah. Christmas is difficult. Yeah. Christmas is crowded. There's a lot of presents to get. There's a lot of kids. Yeah, I mean, some of them have got grandchildren. Wow, yeah. To be serious for a second, how was it for your mum, the set-up when you were a little boy? Well, I didn't really know.

28:55I just sort of knew that, like, I lived with my mum and my dad was around sometimes and everything worked and I'd ask for things and not get them. But that was more because my mum thought I didn't need all the things I was asking for. Give us a flavour of her personality. What's she like? she was very strict um she's the only person that i know that's grounded someone else's kids oh yeah my god

29:25um she was really strict um but as i grew up as i grew up i learned not even as i grew up i think in the last sort of five years how do you enforce that sorry like grounding someone else's kids do you sort of have to go around and make sure that... I think, like, phone calls, regular check-ins. Right. But I think she had, by the sound of it, she had national authority. Yes. She said, you are going home, and you are going home now, and I will phone your mum to make sure you arrive, and you're not going out again tonight. She said that to them. Yeah, it was a lot of that. They left. She then phoned and said, you won't believe what they've been up to.

30:00That's what I've said. And it happened. Yeah. And some of my friends' mums were scared of my mum. They were like, I don't want to get on the wrong side of Jen. Were you scared of her? Yeah. In a good way or were you actually a little frightened of her sometimes? A bit of both. I think like, but I learnt as I got older why she was so strict. And she had, because she'd raised her three brothers. Because my nan and granddad were out working. She raised her brothers. Her brothers rebelled against her because you're not my mum, you're my sister. And they, because there were three of them, like she was outnumbered.

30:33So they rebelled. They were naughty boys. They got in trouble quite a lot with the authorities and the neighbors and stuff like that. So when she had me, she was obviously like, that's not happening with my son. And doubled down on the strictness rather than like sort of easing off. And as a consequence, did you behave well? Were you a well-behaved boy? I was, yeah. But I still had a cheeky bit. I had a naughty glint, I'd say. Describe where you lived. I lived in East Ham. Yeah. A flat, in a house? In a house, yeah. What was your bedroom like? My bedroom was quite big. I had a bunk bed. I wasn't allowed to sleep on the top.

31:20Oh, in case you fell off? Yes. Why weren't you allowed to? The whole joy of a bunk bed is climbing the ladder and sleeping on top, surely. No, I wasn't allowed to. It was sort of saved for... In case your dad came home, by surprise. She didn't want him in the bedroom. you can sleep with Kyle. I guess, I think it was maybe safe for like guests. If we're, of course we'd quite often have like cousins and family and stuff, but, um, yeah, I was, I was on the bottom. And posters on the wall. Posters on the wall. Yeah. And what was the duvet? What was the pattern on the covering of your duvet? I had, uh, well, I guess around 90, it would have been around 96.

32:05I had the England duvet. Very good. Three lions. Three lions, yeah. Three lions. There you go. Yeah. If we get, yeah, if we get one more on the bunk bed, me and my dad, someone else, that's three lions. Very good. Yeah, what else did I have? I had like Hot Wheels duvet cover. And I had, I remember that was my favourite Christmas present. My Hot Wheels, like, multi-story car park.

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34:49what's your sweetest memory of your childhood before your 10 sweetest the nicest moment that just comes floating into your head i remember and this is something that me and jim share i remember playing the innkeeper in my nativity play yeah and memory i remember all of my family coming like like some of my nan's friends like just so many people i think they had too many people and they said like they said to my mom like we can't have this many people and she was like well they're here now so you'd need to find somewhere for them um but i i would say i i had i had more family come to that show than i've had across across my whole tour this year can you remember your line as the yeah because i only had one what was it around the back oh very good yeah so Mary and Joseph turn up saying where are we going to say and you say round the back yeah are you quite pleased the way you did it oh I screamed my head off if that's what you're asking you did it loudly yeah and how did it work um really well I think that so that's the moment I realised I wanted to act from so the truth is you would not be here today if you had not been in that nativity if I'd been Angel Gabriel you could forget this yeah I'd have been in tech yeah indeed yeah making even more money yeah but never mind you were the innkeeper yeah round the back yeah did you have a line as innkeeper yeah it was oh did you play the innkeeper as well I played the good innkeeper yes yes so I love the way you say the good innkeeper yeah well that's what it was there was only one innkeeper I'm so sorry in his script it was just the innkeeper yeah yeah there was no judgement I think there was a couple of innkeepers prior to me because they were like no I've got no room so it was kind of like a road trip sort of, sorry, no room at the inn, no room at the inn.

36:40And then my line was, any card will do, we won't take payment, it's just for the mini bar and stuff. Did you write this yourself? Utility Blame. No, I can't, I think I had sung a song, or yeah, I can't remember the song, so I won't be singing that. You got a song? I got a song. I didn't get a song. I've never heard of the innkeeper having a song before. Sorry, sorry, my inn is full, But you can have my cattle stall You said that like we were going to try Hang on We're not surprised it didn't become a hit single What is then your darkest memory? Your worst memory Before your 10? Nothing really happened before I was 10 I was No I'd ask for something and my mum would say no I can't like I really can't think When you asked Jim I was trying to think And like I really can't think of anything I didn't get bitten by a dog I didn't get like I didn't injure myself I didn't break anything Well done Too busy being grounded And were you a happy boy?

37:49Were you a happy boy? I was but I really wanted I wanted a sibling Because at that age I didn't know that I had siblings I knew that I'd met Patrick But I was sort of like I was five And my dad was like That's your brother But I didn't and by then he was working he was like selling cars you got into performing thanks to playing the innkeeper you obviously were also a successful innkeeper when did you get into performing when you realize this is going to be my life jim uh there was a company that was auditioning for a production of bugsy malone in bognor regis at the sort of the main theater there and i it was the sort of first time i'd auditioned for anything and i loved the film and i thought i was overnourished child so I thought I could go and play Fat Sam I was 13 and after that people sort of said oh you should really pursue this you should take this seriously but of course then in them days at school you know if you told the careers officer that you wanted to be an actor they would just hand you a leaflet for sort of teacher training college or so how did you pursue it and make it happen I studied I went to just a sort of technical college around the sort of time of my A levels and And I did this course called an intensive acting course with a tutor called John Dryden, who was a professional actor himself for many years.

39:13And he sort of kind of sort of sort of drummed it into me and sort of made me sort of take it seriously. So, yeah, I decided that I wanted to go to drama school and audition for sort of a number of drama schools in London. And I got into Mountview Academy. And yeah, some of my friends from the course got in there as well. So you've been content, really, from the age of 11 or 12, knowing this is my destiny and being able to pursue it? I mean, I think so. I don't know. There was a time sort of around GCSE age, I suppose, when you start thinking, what should I do? What could I do?

39:49I never thought that I would end up sort of making a living doing something which I would consider to be a hobby. But, yeah, that's the way it's turned out. but yeah and did you have friends you shared this with did you do you have a girlfriend when you were at school i did i had a couple not many well a couple is two yeah yeah who was the first one oh my goodness me um we don't need to know her name but describe her to us well she was actually yeah she was part of the sort of drama group and she ended up going to college as well and and and actually when i was uh graduating from my drama school uh i was doing a showcase on the stage and she was in the audience and I thought wow I was like I've got another girlfriend now what are you doing here what are you doing here turns out she was going to the school the year after me so she was sort of following me and going to the same school when you're 16 17 are you sharing anything with anyone or are you just bumbling along uh I kind of I suppose I was bumbling along to a certain extent I wasn't really it wasn't really until I sort of started taking making sort of pursuing acting as a career seriously that I sort of found my people and then I could sort of share my sort of hopes and dreams I suppose.

41:07Can you remember the first time you told anyone a secret?

41:13Whoa I mean no I don't think I can remember the first time I told anyone a secret. I'm going to give you a moment to think about it while I talk to Kyle. Okay. I'm just wanting to see if you can remember when you shared your first secret. Okay. Kyle, you knew you wanted to be a performer from the moment they laughed at your line. Yeah. And what happened? How did you become a performer? Well, that's all I ever asked to do. I remember when the term was coming to an end, the year was coming to an end, they would hand out leaflets for summer schools. And in the brochure, you could flick through and find whatever it was you wanted to do.

41:49It could be sports, it could be music. And then I saw her acting. And then I said to my mum that I wanted to do that. And you were right by the Stratford East Theatre. Yes, exactly. Founded by Joan Littlewood. Yeah. And did you join them? No, because you couldn't join until you were 11. Oh. So I joined a, like a summer school, summer drama school, that was run by Derek Brown. And that was at a school in West Ham. And so I would do that for the whole summer. and then we'd put on a show at the end and then I'd go back to school and then think about the next summer that I could do that all half term where I could go back.

42:28So I did that until I was 11. Then I applied for youth theatre and got in. Then did youth theatre from 11 to 18. That's at Stratford East? At Stratford East, yeah. Fantastic. So that's been your life, all nice and settled. Great. Did you find a girlfriend? There were girls I liked in school but I didn't really have a girlfriend. until I was maybe 16. I think, no, probably even, yeah, 16, when I was in my first year of sixth form was when I had my first actual girlfriend. And did you tell her all your secrets? No. None, actually. Oh. You sure? I'm positive, yeah. Oh, you really kept yourself to yourself.

43:13Yeah, I did, yeah. And when then did you tell a secret to somebody? When did I tell a secret to somebody? I think I'm really good at keeping secrets. So I don't think I really shared many at all. I think I had them, but I didn't share them. I mean, how have you been in terms of relationships, given the example of your father? Well, I don't have any kids. But yeah, I mean, I think my dad started when he was like 19. I mean, I'm very much not being judgmental at all. But it is extraordinary. But you've chosen to live a life that is quite different from your father. Yeah. I was never any good at cricket, so.

43:55But did you admire your dad? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because he was clearly, interestingly from reading the material, he was a great dad in the sense that he really did manage to know all his children, spent time as much as he could with each of the mothers, and was within his limitations, he was a responsible and engaged father. Yeah, yeah, definitely was. The only thing that sort of is slightly odd in that is the way that he didn't do the introductions himself. He sort of left it to the others. So when I was 14, he said to me, tomorrow we're going to Birmingham to see your sister. And I was like, what's Birmingham?

44:35And who's my sister? And we got on a coach. And we met my sister Elaine. And she met us at the coach station, picked us up. We drove to her house. And I met her kids who were just a little bit younger than me. And that evening when my dad went to bed, she said to me, how many of us have you met? And I was like, what do you mean? And then she explained to me how many of us, and she brought out a photo album and showed me, that's your sister, that's your sister, that's your brother, that's your sister. And I just didn't know. But he'd obviously brought, she realised he'd brought me there for her to do it.

45:11But it doesn't, it's not really, it doesn't fit the sort of guy that he was in terms of like always being there and making he was at every like big event throughout my life even though he didn't live there all the big things that happened my graduation my um end of uh my leavers after school my shows all of that he was at all of them um and he was very family orientated but he never went right you need to learn that this is your this is your sister he just sort of left it to the others to do it um what was the question well it's all about relationship You being, obviously saying you haven't shared secrets.

45:48I'm intrigued because your father had a secret, had a range of secrets that gradually were revealed that he clearly wanted you ultimately to know, but he wasn't open about it. And you've just been telling us that if you have secrets, you've kept them basically to yourself over the years. And I'm intrigued by that as a phenomenon. Right. Right, got you. Partly because I'm, are you an open person? Yeah, I think so. You have shared secrets. That's why I think I'm finding this question so hard because my family, they could all be town criers if they wanted to be. That's their perfect job. I don't think any of them are good at keeping secrets.

46:32I can't. And so, because I was the youngest in the family for so long until my aunt had her child when I was like 14. So 14 years, I was the youngest member of the family. So I don't think anyone really divulged any kind of secrets to me because if they couldn't keep a secret themselves, how could I keep a secret? And I probably was quite loud and a bit of a show off. I mean, I think the earliest kind of secrets I would have maybe told is if someone had, you know how when you're a teenager and you'd ask a friend to ask someone out? Like you always use like a kind of broker. Yeah, I don't do. Can you go and ask someone out for it?

47:10I think I probably, that was always like kind of a secret sort of deal. And I probably told a few friends that I had this knowledge. It was about power, wasn't it? Telling secrets when you're a teenager. It's about making yourself more important than you probably are because you have this information. And so I think I probably used that as currency in my teenage years. How interesting. Because I think the secrets I was thinking about were things personal to oneself. self admitting who you are to another human being admitting your own vulnerabilities yeah it's tricky i've always sort of been quite an open person i've never really guarded anything about myself there were times growing up actually when i was a scout in fact um which is apt but where i was or when i used to play sport my father was a football coach and so i used to belong to the local football team and there were times when I couldn't sort of do it I wasn't very good at football and um and that used to hurt quite a bit and then when I was a scout we would do things like kind of uh I've realized I had a fear of heights when I was in the scouts and I would sort of crumble physically and emotionally and wasn't necessarily bullied at all because I was quite popular because I was funny but I felt like I was being backed into a corner of this kind of extreme situation and I didn't want to sort of go down the zip line or go down the the the abseiling wall so I think that's kind of where I opened up and perhaps discovered something about myself you know some might consider it a weakness but I don't think it is really I don't why would you want to hang off a building it's not a weakness but it is a vulnerability yeah I think that's probably it and it was kind of an alpha situation do you Kyle have a vulnerability in those days did you have something that i mean i wasn't i wasn't i also wasn't very good at sports but but i was an mc so now how did you become an mc this means what does mc mean uh well then uh it meant mic controller ah yeah mic controller yeah and where did you do the mic controlling um Well, in school, it sort of started out in school.

49:31I went to all boys school in Forest Gate, which was full of like footballers and MCs and rappers and basketballers. And it was a lot of that. And a lot of like great people have come out of the school because of the talents and the way that they sort of hone the people's talents. But it was like everyone was doing it. So I was like, I want to do it. and I also want to be the best at it. So I just did. And you were. I was for a bit, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely in my year, I was like top two. But yeah, that was sort of what you needed to be. Is that why you're holding your mic? Yeah, well, that's why we gave it to him.

50:14That's why they gave me the stand-up. It might bleed, it might stop bleeding. He's natural. Also, it's to show the age difference. You know, you are 10 years old. I couldn't possibly hold your mic. Exactly, your hand might be shaking. He's more cool. Yeah.

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52:06Now, ghosts. Either of you were into the supernatural when you were children. Did you ever have ghostly experiences? No, but I really wanted to. I never did a Ouija board or anything like that. That was too much. My sister did, you see. So I was exposed to kind of horror films and sort of monster stories and everything else quite early in life because my sister was so much older than me. And so I saw sort of Jaws far too early and sort of different horror films. But it did sort of turn me on to this sort of the world of supernatural. I like the Osborne Book of Ghosts. I used to love that. Did you believe in it?

52:41Did you want to believe it? I wanted to believe in it. I wanted it to be real. um but uh it's even then when there wasn't sort of nowadays you have a camera or everyone's holding a camera you know in their pocket but in them days there just wasn't enough evidence like i used to i used to pour over a a book of the unexplained and uh and it used to fascinate me like bigfoot and um internal sort of combustion you know uh like just all that stuff and carl were you into ghosts? Did you believe in them? Did you have any ghostly experiences? I can't say I did. Was Halloween a thing in your part of town?

53:20No, not really. I think Halloween's a sort of modern American thing. Well, we used to do Halloween, like, in our street. There was a community of sort of a gang, I should say, and we used to go up and down the houses. But in them days, you sort of dressed like kind of classic universal monsters. So one of you was a werewolf, one of you was Dracula. Right. Nowadays, you can just go like Mr. Bean. all the whole life. You're Mr. Blobby. Well, you've got to just put some vampire teeth in. You've got to make it sort of gothic in some way. So, yeah, I'm all for the sort of old-school horror. What about you, Carl?

53:54Do you ever try a Ouija board? Absolutely not. Is that in the film? It's a Ouija board. It is, yes. And what happens with a Ouija board? It spells out letters. Yeah, so you will put your fingers on the glass, and then, yes, there's a sort of... And it moves around. Oh, I loved all that. Yeah, no, I did. And I used to like to make the table move discreetly you know yeah no I never I never really did you come from a family that believed in God yeah your mum went to church yeah yeah my mum went to church my mum went to church I actually my nan took me to church from when I was young and then my mum didn't start going to church until I started going by myself and then I guess she was like what's all this about and then yeah then she started going and then I stopped going and she carried on and then she started like volunteering at the church and then she was really involved in the church.

54:44So your career takes off because you're an MC, that seems to be working. And do you make a record? Is there a song? We had a couple of tracks, yeah. Oh no, you say a couple of tracks. Who's we? So I was in a group called Red Hot. That's a good name. Yeah. And then from Red Hot came to... I can't believe there wasn't another group called Red Hot. Such a good name. Yeah. I mean... Did you come out? Some people talk about the Chili Peppers. But we were Red Hot Entertainment. And we had a track called Junior Spesh, which was huge in 2007. Male on the left. Yeah. That went viral. For 2007, it was viral.

55:28We had a million views in 2008. So that was sort of unheard of then. Amazing. And you've been busy all your life. I mean, you've had employment all your life. Oh, not like in entertainment always. but like I've definitely been busy I haven't always been employed um when I came out of drama school in 2010 I thought like oh this is it I'm gonna because I my first job was in Whitechapel I had like a ITV crime drama drama as well and I played a boy whose uh brother had been framed by a murderer um and uh yeah so I thought like this is it I'm just gonna be doing this now because when I was in drama school, I didn't think I was going to be on TV.

56:11I thought I was going to come out and do plays because everything in drama school was theater-based. We had maybe six weeks of TV acting training. And then, yeah, I didn't expect to be doing any TV at all. But then when I got that TV job, I thought, oh, this is it now. I'm going to be like from one to the next and to the next. And then I've got to change my number because everyone's going to try and get a hold of me. But it worked for like three years. I was in a call centre and I was doing like I was doing stuff on YouTube I was doing sketches and I was making things so I was busy in that sense but I wasn't employed I was employed by a call centre where I was getting minimum wage and what does acting involve for you?

56:53what is acting? nobody's ever asked me that no what is acting? what is acting? how do you go on to a set? because stage acting obviously has to be different because of the scale of it you're filling a large space. So you've got to project more. It's got to be more visual. But I mean, I remember a conversation with two actors who had a row and one of them said, one of the older actors said, what are you going to be doing in this scene? I'm going to be doing nothing. He said, you can't be doing nothing. I'm the one doing nothing in this scene. But often the best acting is doing nothing. It's just being there, but in the moment.

57:31So what does it involve? um convincingly portraying a character and how do you do that in your head you think it yeah i think i think it and then i try and make my body do what i'm thinking um try and make my face do the thing that i'm thinking of and you find it relatively easy most of the time and when's it been difficult for you and why it's been difficult when you get something when you don't get why characters saying something or why they've made that decision or a writer has forgotten about a character in a scene one thing that these guys do really well um is have so many people in a scene sometimes we have 10 people in a scene um that's that's actually like the minimum if everyone's in if all the main cast are in there's there's 10 of us and everyone's got something that they can be thinking about or something that like i'm never reading the script going well what am i doing there because i don't speak for a page there's something to do there's something and that's something that i really had to um alter because when you're when you're on other previous sets you can be getting on with something or you can be interacting with other people in the room but for mike from my point of view there's only two people in the room whereas for alison there's 10 there's yeah there's 10 in total and for the ghost there's 10 but for mike it's just me and alison until i'm instructed that there are and you try to make them disappear in your head yes until i'm until i'm physically with them yes they are there but you are ignoring so you're moving your head around and so you can't see them yeah so you're looking through them to the whatever's on the table yeah i when when we get the scenes i'd look at what stage does Mike become aware that there are ghosts in the room?

59:26Are you happy with this way of life? Are you happy doing what you're doing now? Oh, yeah. Given the variety of what you've been doing, working in a call centre, making albums, being an emcee, now being an actor, having a movie that's being launched in this country and in the United States of America, and in Australia, when I know you're huge. Is this good? Is this where you want to be? Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what I wanted to be doing. I'd like to do more of my own stuff as well. And your own stuff is what? Improv? More of, like, my own comedy. Like, stuff that I've written. And I had a lap, like a pilot, of a sketch show called Red Flag.

1:00:05That was, like, four years ago. I'd like to do stuff like that. I'd like to make my own stuff. But also being in great shows. And is your work more important to you than your home? What is your home life now? Is my work more important to me than my home right now? no is the right answer if they're watching but I we know you keep secrets and we know you're a very good actor I'm asking you in the 24 hours the 7 days of the week what you're thinking about mostly about work well you're young why not yeah what is your home situation at the moment yeah I'm home by myself alone yeah yeah you live at home alone yeah I live at home alone is that easy no but it's been a tough year I lost my mum earlier this year in January how old was she?

1:00:5574 that's very young yeah I'm so sorry about that yeah yeah were you with her? were you with her? yeah because you were her only boy yeah wow yeah yeah that is very disconcerting for you it's been a very tough year yeah yeah so it's new it's new like I went back home to look after her from like 2022 and so I'd been in the house with her for the last four years so it's a new scenario it's a new experience it's a totally different experience you are for the first time in your life alone yeah yeah yeah because she and your nan were the mainstay of your childhood despite the delightful father who came and went and that's come to an end is she buried anywhere?

1:01:42no she wanted she didn't like worms so wanted to be cremated right but will she have gone to heaven? yes yeah and would you like she'll be bossing people about her would you like to see a ghost of her would it be quite fun do you think she'll be quite a good ghost i can i could hear i could hear her telling me don't do so there's certain there was one day she's got she had a very dry wit i had the pleasure of meeting her on a couple of occasions and she had a very sort of dry sense of humor um so she would have fit right in yeah yeah there was one day maybe yeah exactly yeah there was one day i think like maybe it was around march and something happened in the house I think I spilt something or something like that and I swore quite loudly and then something fell down in the house oh and I was like all right sorry mom very good so I feel like yeah she's still in touch yeah yeah yeah well well done you looked after then for four four years in your flat your house in our like in the family house my childhood home yeah gosh yeah and you're still living there yeah that is very strange and interesting yeah and have you stayed on the straight and narrow have you have you behaved as your mum would have wanted all these years broadly speaking mostly yeah there were there were you know I'm a tie and upper but the occasional falling off mostly yeah yeah and what do you see your future as um much of the same I hope I'd like to keep keep acting keep doing TV film also keep doing my live show um hoping that like if the TV and film takes me around the world and I can do my live shows around the world too.

1:03:18That would be the dream. And then a family, I hope. I think your dream is going to come true. I'd love that. There's no question. And you're going to have a family with more than one child and you're all going to live in the same building, I suspect. I hope so, yeah. And you might even marry the person. It might not be the same house, but it will be the same building. Yeah, exactly. That's lovely. And what about you? Because your life has been more, well, it's been varied as well, as well as being an actor. um you are you're one of the co-creators horrible histories as well no i didn't create horrible i was part of the team i was part of the cast i i didn't do any of the writing no no um horrible histories was a huge brand before i was part of it but you are the co-creator of of ghosts yes that's right yeah yeah and you write that yes you write it yeah yeah so your life is very varied and good it is yeah i've so i live with my wife um in north london we have two dogs we don't have any children um and uh yeah so i just you know i i'm you say you don't have any children as it were actively no um is that a conscious decision no it was uh it was we struggled for a long time and then uh sort of decided that actually our lives are fine and my wife's uh works in the industry as well she's a costume supervisor for tv and film and so we're both sort of very busy and very active and enjoy our lives and um as they are and we were like well let's just you know hang up on that and uh and get on with it well i think you're brilliant and obviously the film i'm i've seen the trailer and i've seen the first 20 minutes um that's the best bit oh don't tell me that it's not the best i'm sure there's gonna be twists but it's quite it's different from the tv series because it goes clearly right from the beginning it's clear it goes into different realms yes but it's still very much on the nose you know it's reminding that you are dead yes you've got to accept that we are in the world of ghosts that's right yeah um yeah i mean is it it's entertaining does it have is it for you too is it something beyond a glorious entertainment well it's a family now i think that's it's like when we get together there's a we sort of exist on a kind of an exclusive wavelength.

1:05:28And we actually have the most fun is away from the set and actually in the green room. We kind of, we've become almost ghosts ourselves in that we're sort of captive in this house for 12 plus hours a day. And so we come up with little games and kind of parlor games, almost like Victorian ghosts. But we, yeah, I've honestly, it's such a great job. I don't think, I'm not sure if I'll ever do a job like it again in that respect. Jim, what have you learnt about Kyle now, working closely with him, spending time in the green room with him, getting to know him, that he hasn't revealed to us today? What can you tell us about him that he may not even recognise in himself?

1:06:11We haven't talked about his love of salad cream. Enough. Tell us more. He has salad cream on essentially everything. I think salad cream on rice is probably his favourite meal. I don't like to have Bryce Riley. We talked about it so much, but I feel like with Kyle, and this is from someone who has been lucky enough to be part of a company that has created this show, that has done so well. But with Kyle, he puts us all to shame in terms of his generating material for himself, generating work for himself. He's, I mean, you're a busy man. And it's your own doing. It's not just the phone ringing necessarily, although the phone is ringing.

1:07:06You've got a really great work ethic. I love you, man. Thanks, man. And now you, Kyle, have got to say what you've learnt spending time with Jim about him that he may not have revealed to us. I love how Jim talks about home And I think quite a few of us Let me try and say this without getting anyone in trouble I think quite a few of us Will enjoy staying away from home

1:07:40For various reasons For some people it's just the convenience And it's just easier and those sort of things um Jim I'd say out of the whole cast stays away from home the least and the way he talks about home just like before I was in before I was in a relationship I was like and I'd listen to Jim talk about home I'd be like I want that I want to be excited to go home and see my wife and just like hang out and chill and I always I really admired that okay we're going to finish now very quickly three quick questions for each of you the a moment of joy a moment of joy from your whole life particularly your younger years jim a moment of joy what comes into your head don't think about it just give it okay so um i have a picture uh of myself and my two oldest friends michael and john who were brothers and we um the three musketeers with oliver reed and uh that that yeah that crowd That was on television one night.

1:08:45And it was back when television was just like an event. And you wouldn't see something coming up and you'd sit and watch it like theatre. You'd have to watch it like theatre. And I watched this film, was completely blown away. I think I was about nine. And the next day we found various kind of costumes. And we made bin liners with French crosses on. and we were musketeers all day and um the john and mike's mom took a picture of us the three of us and for my 40th birthday i was given this picture and whenever i'm filming and the costume is uncomfortable or the uh the it's a particularly hot day or i am the food's bad the food's really bad or there's something in the call sheet that you've been looking you've been dreading so either sort of a partial nudity or being you know it's a upper mountain i think about this picture and think about the play and think about this this is what i love from in this job and that is being something else pretending to be one of the three musketeers and playing so i still have that picture yeah yeah did you see that picture between getting gifted and taking it no i remember it being taken I remember it's a core memory of being taken.

1:10:05And I hadn't seen it until my 40th birthday. In fact, Michael, one of the brothers, bought me a copy of Three Musketeers and it was slotted into the book. So since then, it's been actually a really lovely thing to have. Kyle, your moment of joy. What comes immediately into your head? I'm going to watch Gladiators, the Berman of Man EC. Wolf, right? Wolf, yeah. Booing wolf. That'll do it. That is a moment of joy. Okay, and your moment of sadness, I would imagine, is your mum's passing, but maybe not. Yeah, but I mean, there were a few moments of sadness before that. Give me one. That sort of prepared me for that.

1:10:54Give me your phone. When my mum passed in 2013, that was a big moment of sadness. That was my first, like, great loss. And how did you respond? Because you were grown up by then. Yeah, I was in my early 20s.

1:11:13Yeah, I don't really know how I responded, if I'm honest. I sort of like thought, oh, you just don't talk about it. And then I guess like later throughout the years I did. Because I talk about my life quite a lot. Yeah, but that would have been my first sort of great moment of sadness. What about you, Jim? Yeah, my grandmother's passing, my mother's mum was such a huge influence. Because my parents were working a lot of the time, I spent an awful lot of time around with my nan. And yeah, I mean, she essentially, I was there loads, brought me up really, to a certain extent. And, you know, every Sunday we would have a roast there.

1:11:57It was just, she was just the sort of head of the family. And, yeah, when she passed, it was a huge hole. Yeah, yeah, it was a tough thing. Let's, in our heads, toast nams everywhere. Last question. What has life taught each of you? You're younger, so you've had less long to learn about life, Kyle. What's life taught you so far?

1:12:23um i think it's taught me to

1:12:29really savor the moments of of happiness because they're not everywhere some people say there's happiness everywhere you look and i'm not sure about that but um i think really enjoy those moments and like even with things like this you know like you're promoting a film and it's like try and take out the work element of like well i've got to do this got to be there this time but just enjoy that like i've got this thing coming out and celebrate that yeah yeah and what about you what's life taught you jim well you know what even though i was bitten by a dog when i was six i actually have two dogs now um and i'm a dog lover uh one of the dogs is my first dog um and they actually teach you i think to be present because they're not on they're not around for very long and uh i think they're a very useful um hack into remaining sort of present and positive well i feel very grateful to have been present with you two here and i think i've found happiness with you two in the last hour thank you so i'm not going to go and see the rest of ghosts it's going to be glorious i am going to enjoy yeah it's going to be a hit all over the world congratulations to you two you're both brilliant thank you thank you thank you thank you for being part of rosebud Cheers.

1:14:27That's this week's Rosebud, recorded at the Grosvenor House Hotel in London's Park Lane. Produced by Harriet Jane, who of course also appears every Tuesday with me, Giles Brandreth. Thanks for being with us. See you next time.

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