Dame Siân Phillips

0:00Wherever you are in the world, whatever mood you got up in, however you're feeling right now, Well, you can take an hour or so off from harsh reality and tune in to somebody else's story. Welcome to another episode of Rosebud.

0:36Well, this is another very special edition of Rosebud. Over the last couple of years, I think I've been lucky enough to have conversations with almost all of the great British dames of the theatre and the cinema. We began, of course, with Dame Judi Dench. But what a cast we've had. I mean, the last interview, I think, ever given by Dame Maggie Smith is one you can find in the Rosebud archive. Whether it's Dame Joanna Lumley or Dame Kristin Scott Thomas, we've been lucky enough to have them here on Rosebud. But I was looking down the list the other day of the great dames, thinking we're going to complete, we're going to have the whole card, the whole pack of them.

1:20Some of them have been made dames since we started Rosebud. Dame Elaine Page. We're going to get her without fail. But I was looking down the list the other day and I thought, oh, look at this, one of my favourite actresses. Why haven't we had her? And today we are going to get her. She's coming up for 93, but you won't believe it when you hear her. I'm speaking of Dame Sian Phillips, born on the 14th of May, 1933. And I've just been listening to the conversation that we had and I think she is a completely remarkable human being. I mean, there's a wonderful evocation of her childhood in Wales.

2:03I mean, listening to her father singing, playing outdoors, watching Swansea burning during the blitz of the Second World War. And clearly, a talent was there from a very early age, working for BBC Wales in her teens. And then eventually, she goes to London to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. It may almost be the first time she leaves Wales. but her story goes on and becomes more and more extraordinary. I don't know why I didn't think of having her sooner because I have known her for a while and I actually knew two of her three husbands. One was the actor Robin Sachs, son of Leonard Sachs and Eleanor Summerfield.

2:46Both of them I knew as well and the other was a very famous actor, international film star, great actor, Peter O'Toole. and to hear her talking as you will about her marriage to Peter O'Toole is both fascinating and I think somewhat disturbing because it was clearly a complicated and well viewed from perspective of 2026 a controlling relationship so fascinating stuff also I mean a truly great actress Edda Garbler St Joan she was nominated for award on one award after award but a Tony nominated for her performance as Marlene Dietrich. Of course, most famously, I suppose, for many people, I, Claudius, in which she played Livia.

3:32But from Doctor Who recently, going back to Dune, Sian Phillips, whenever she appears on screen, she makes her mark. So, you are in for a treat with a remarkable actress in her tenth decade, but you never know it. She's just a very interesting human being. Welcome to Rosebud, Dame Sian Phillips. Cue the music.

4:08I'm very excited, before we begin, that my guest is Dame Sian Phillips, born 14th May 1933. 1333. I'm calling you Sian, but actually I think your name is Jane, isn't it? It is actually, yes. Is Sian a Welsh version of Jane? Sian is Welsh for Jane, yes it is. And do you have a middle name as well? I'll win, I'll win, which is Second Smile, because my sister died before I was born and my mother romantically called me Second Smile, but I never did like that name really, so I was very glad to be called Jane when I went to grammar school. They automatically called me Jane because it was the first name.

4:50And then my Welsh master said, you can't be called Jane. I mean, that's ridiculous. You have to be called Sian. And you like being called Sian? May I call you Sian? Oh, yes. That's what I've been called for the rest of my, except once when I was starting out in the theatre, I had to go to look at my first poster, my first billing outside the theatre. And there it was, the play, the title, the main actors. And at the bottom it said, and introducing Stan Phillips. So I said, oh, and I'd gone all the way to Aberdead to look at this. It was very sad. And I still have friends alive, only one or two now, alas, because we're all so old, who still call me Stan.

5:33Oh, wonderful. I may be tempted to call you Stan throughout this. I think it quite suits me, actually, Stan. Well, Sian Phillips, born on the 14th of May, 1933. What is your very first memory? My first memory is, I would be about four, I think. And I was going to perform for the first time in chapel. And my mother had washed me, combed my hair, put me in my pretty yellow dress, put me outside in the sunshine and said stay there I will be with you in a moment she went in to put her hat on and her jacket and out she came and off we went to chapel and came my turn and my mother lifted me from the seat alongside her and she realized that I had no knickers on and she froze and she thought what am I going to do automatically she lifted me up and carried me down the aisle and put me on a box underneath the pulpit where I could be seen.

6:41And she was in despair, but she leaned over and she whispered in my ear, in Welsh of course, don't bend over. So that was my first ever piece of direction, really, was that. We've had some unusual first memories. I think this must count as one of the most unusual. so tell me you mentioned chapel we're clearly in south wales south west wales southwest wales so where were you born and who was this mother and is there a father yes i was born on a farm team our big house it was called it wasn't a very big house but it was comparatively big i suppose and it was on the bettos mountain outside guanque girwin which is famous actually for a man called gareth edwards who is a very famous rugby player so gareth and i were born in the same village except i was born up the mountain and he was born in the village and who were your parents my parents were um sally who was a teacher and devoted to it but when she married she was not allowed to teach anymore it was a law in those days i mean the law wasn't just her husband saying No, no, no, it was the law.

7:56It was you had to stop whatever job you were doing and devote yourself to your husband, whoever he might be. And she was quite shattered by this. I don't think she ever recovered from it, actually. She loved teaching. And the house was always full of people in the other room on the ground floor with supper, cooking there maybe, and me doing my homework here. And in there, my mother would be teaching somebody something. thing she she was she just loved teaching she adored it and she was sad i think her whole life that she couldn't pursue it and how old was she when she married your father oh i don't know in her late 20s i suppose so she had quite a career she had and she had got a job in um in in canada um she was going to emigrate to canada but she met a very handsome very very good looking policeman.

8:56Very tall and a wonderful rugby player. Wonderful everything. But he was I've got my mother who's a thwarted teacher and I've got a father who is a thwarted singer. What was his name? David Thomas Phillips. David Thomas Phillips. Di Phillips. Known as Di Phillips. And was he a good singer? He had a lovely voice. he was picked up by a London talent scout because they used to come around the valleys picking up the good singers in those days and there were lots of them he had a choir and he sang and he lived for music he just played music all day he was a very bad policeman obviously but he was a wonderful musician In your head what would you hear him singing if I asked you now if you saw your father singing what would he be singing?

9:49Oh, just as you said that, I mean, this is not characteristic, but very often he would be singing, Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole. He used to sing everything opera and play piano as well. And he and his brother could play any instrument, given an hour of fiddling around in the drawing room, and they would play the oboe or the clarinet. They were very, very talented musicians. Was he the same sort of age as your mother or a little older? He was a little older. But did they get on well? Well, except they were two infinitely disappointed people. So the disappointment lasted their lives.

10:30It coloured their lives. Oh, it lasted their whole lives. They never let it colour my life. They never did. Never did. And they never talked about it. But children can tell. I could tell. My father played music every day. He'd get up early and play, rehearse the piano and sing. Then he'd go out and work, he'd come back, and he'd play the piano again. I mean, he'd play the piano every day. And can you picture him in uniform, being a policeman? Oh, yes. I can see him. He was a very, very handsome man, yeah. Did he go up the ranks, as it was, a policeman? No, he was. How can you go up the ranks when you're busy singing opera, arranging concerts?

11:10So he just was a policeman to earn a living. He was, yes. And he wanted... You know, at that time, there was no certainty at all. about work i mean that there was no work he was very lucky to get this job because he was tall he played rugby he played he was a runner was he a charmer as well oh he was shy oh shy i adored them both actually but this is the 1930s this is the time yes of the terrible 1930s the unemployment and you are in south wales where it may be amongst the worst of the whole of the Yes, it was very bad. But I was not aware of any of that. I had a wonderful childhood. You mentioned that there was an older sister.

11:55Yes. Because your middle name is the second smile. Yes. Which is charming. Did that colour their lives? It must have done. Oh, it must have done. But they only once told me the story of what happened. And what did happen? Well, what happened must have been a cot death, I suppose. Just at nine months, she picked her up and she died. Oh. So nobody ever knew why. So you're an only child. I'm an only child, yes. But did you have friends as a little girl? Oh, yes, but I was a very ill child. So from the age of about five or six until the age of nine, I was constantly in and out of hospital or ill at home or being convalescing.

12:38What was the cause of this? Oh, it was about 11 things that are... Give us the highlights. We haven't got time for 11. Give us the most dramatic ones. The most dramatic, I suppose, are appendicitis after a gym display. I lived in a place which was all hills. You know, you went down a hill, you went up a hill, you went down. You walked endlessly. There were no buses even. And I loved gymnastics. I absolutely adored them. I loved my gym teacher. I wanted to please her. And I did two hours of gymnastics feeling pretty ropey. And then I walked home with my satchel and all my books. And when I was nearly home, I thought, oh, I'm so tired.

13:21I think I'll lie down on the pavement for a bit. It was a sunny afternoon. I put my bag down and I lay down and I sort of dozed for a bit. Mercifully, the baker came past and thought, what is she doing lying on the pavement? So he picked me up and realized that I was ill. So he put me in his van with all the crumbs. and at the end of the day there was no bread left and there were just crumbs. So I remember lying among the crumbs thinking, oh, this is so lovely, just lying here, riding along. And got me home and the ambulance came instantly and I was whisked off and nearly died, you know. So that was about my third brush with death at that point.

14:04And you were speaking Welsh as a little girl. Your family, your home was a Welsh... Oh, yes. Everyone spoke... No one spoke English. No one spoke English. In the whole of the village as it were? No one. No. All the villages around, no. And you just took that for granted? Yes. And when did you learn to speak English? And was it necessary? It wasn't necessary because we had a radio. We weren't allowed to listen to it a lot. You know, there was the six o 'clock news and there was Itmar and there was Children's Hour and there was Saturday Night Theatre and that was about it for listening. It was a special thing.

14:36And did you understand it, the English? I got to understand it, and without realising it, I could speak English. Yes, I could. Describe the house that you were born in. It was obviously quite a big house. Well, it was a stone house. It was a stone. It was a reasonable-sized stone house, but it was up a dirt track, and you had to tie your shoes around your neck in order to go anywhere because the mud was thick on the road. and there was just, it was just cows. So you had the boots around your neck, the shoes. Boots around, shoes. And my mother did too. Anybody going down to the village had to tie their shoes around.

15:17And then you wore Wellington boots on your feet. Wore wellies, yes, to go down. And then you changed when you got down there. And then you changed and looked respectable again when you got to the bottom. And was the house warm? No, freezing. Unless you sat near the fire, the range, the big range was always on, always. And that was wonderful. well and but the rest of the time and there was no electricity my uncle was was responsible for rural electrification and he he was a sort of local politician and he got uh he got electrics for us the electrics before that we had a wonderful tilly lamp which is a white white light and before that it was candles and burning sheets and mattresses being thrown out of windows the usual drama we have to think it is almost a hundred years ago it is a different world where you're down in the valleys you're speaking welsh you're being lit by candlelight you're freezing with cold huddling by the fire this lovely shy father of yours is only really happy when he's singing at the piano your mother is sort of consoling herself the disappointment of her life and in your bedroom what are you doing are there books i'm reading there were many books yeah there were books everywhere and i i just stayed at home for four years and read and and i went out walking as well i walked a lot i used to walk with my father around the the farms you know he had to inspect the farms and make sure nobody during the war make sure that people weren't there was no black black market because you're about seven when the Second World War begins.

16:54Yes, you're very good at this. I'm never quite sure how old I was. And South Wales, because of steel, I imagine, and maybe because of coal, was somewhere that was bombed. Swansea was bombed. But my mother was a very dramatic woman. She came to wake me up one morning, no, one night, and she wrapped me in a blanket. She took me downstairs. She took me up the steps into our big, big garden. and she gave me a News Chronicle newspaper, which is the paper we took, and she said, read me that first column. So I read the first column and she said, now remember, you are reading that by the light of Swansea burning.

17:40Oh my goodness. And how far away was Swansea? Nine miles away. Oh my goodness. It burned for three days and nights. It was nine miles away. And there were many mountains, hills, villages. There were many things between us and it. We couldn't see it. But it was daylight. Daylight for three days. And were you conscious of in any way what the war was about? No. No. I used to organize. I played a lot because I was ill. I had more time to create things, I suppose. We played a lot of games, spy games. and that was lovely. I went back there to do some filming recently, and I went to look to see if the cavities in the stones were still there, and they're still there.

18:30We used to put the notes as agents. You and your young friends? Yes, we used to put notes to each other. Yes, in the sort of dead letterbox or whatever it was called. Yes, yes. Still there. Extraordinary. It hasn't changed. Did your father, he was in a protected occupation being a policeman? He was a bomb reconnaissance officer, so he used to go away from time to time on another course or something and he was a bomb diffuser or whatever for the neighbourhood and he had the one gun in the neighbourhood as well and they weren't I used to listen in the home guard happened in our house so I wasn't supposed to be listening at all but I couldn't resist I never ever told anybody anything that happened in the house.

19:19I understood that I mustn't do that. But I did creep down and sit on the stairs and listen. They were having such a lovely time, the home guard. They were laughing their heads off. It was like dad's army. It was exactly like dad's army. And there was a note as well, to be opened only in the event of invasion. And it was that time, I suppose, when we might have been invaded. And they said, oh, let's have a look at it. All in Welsh, of course. No, no, no, we can't do that. No, we're not supposed to do that. Just one little look. Just open it. So he opened it, and it said, in the event of invasion, if there is one German, shoot him.

20:03If there are more, bury the rifle.

20:09I thought, I have to go to bed now. I'm laughing so much. I can't stay here anymore. Oh, an extraordinary story. It's wonderful, isn't it? Oh. Did you feel frightened by the war? No. No, not at all. No. By that time, though, you were going to school. I mean, you had... No, I didn't. I didn't go to school until I went to grammar school when I was nine. I didn't go to school at all. You didn't go to school at all? No. And so your mother, being a teacher herself, was teaching you? Taught me nothing. What? Nothing. She taught me... I'm the only person that came within a mile of her that she did teach.

20:40But where did you learn sums? I mean, two and two makes of them. I didn't learn sums. I didn't learn sums. I didn't learn the time, how to tell the time. There was nothing to buy anyway. None of us had money. No children had money. We couldn't go into a shop. Did you have pocket money? No. Pocket money, no. Really? No. No, no. What about sweets? Were you allowed sweets now and again? No, we didn't eat sweets. I didn't know what a sweet was because it was a good... She thought it was quite good that I wasn't allowed a lot of sugar because they're bad for your teeth and they're bad for children.

21:13I never had a sweet in my childhood. So you were self-taught? No. I don't know what I was. I just read and read and read. And that's when you found you had a facility for learning things by heart. No, I didn't know I did. I mean, my mother would say to me, learn this. And she'd go out and prepare lunch or something. And she'd say, do you know it? I'd say, yes. she said say it and I'd say it and what was it? Welsh? no it could be English it could be anything miles of the Bible of course the Bible is very good material do you remember any of it now? yes I do what's a favourite passage that comes immediately to mind?

21:52the only one I remember is the prodigal son I remember that in Welsh oh can you give me just a flavour of it? or it can ri ur thy vaap twid od re yegnaf how wonderful it doesn't sound like anything that makes sense to you Oh, I know. It's a strange language, the Welsh language. It's very beautiful. It's great. And, I mean, you love it. Well, I'm going to do a show in it at the end of the week, so, you know. Well, that's the right answer for this week anyway. Yes, quite. But in your head, when you were a little girl, were you thinking in Welsh or English? In Welsh at that point, I think. And then the war finished, and I was a delicate child, obviously.

22:31and I also had a very disconcerting skin disease which I'd picked up in a hospital so I nearly died of scarlet fever twice I had almost everything twice and the second time I nearly died and I came out I recovered I came out but I had a tiny little crack at the end of both ears just there and they He said, oh, it'll go away, it'll go away. Well, it didn't go away. It just blossomed into my face. And I slept for about six months on a wooden block. I was painted brown. It would flash all over my body, this skin thing. So I had a very, and my mother told me, now you must remember that people are very uncomfortable when they see you.

23:18But you mustn't pay any attention, and you mustn't make them embarrassed in any way. I said, okay, so I didn't. So I was fine about it. Sometimes I'd have to go out painted purple with permanganate of potash all over me. Other times I would be brown with some stinging acidy stuff. Other times I would be scarcely sleeping because it was a wooden block I had to sleep on, not a pillow. And there were various things like that that were just part of that four or five years of being ill all the time. And how do you think that has affected you for the rest of your life, or has it? Not at all, I don't think.

23:57No, not at all. My mother told me to be sensible, so I was. And I had lots of friends. I was fine. They never said anything. I never said anything. Your mother must have been very apprehensive all the time, though, given that she'd lost her first form. She must have been beside herself, I think, because I used to go and play in the quarry, you know, where it was strictly forbidden. And I was very adventurous as a child. So I would disappear for the whole day at a time. And it must have been extremely difficult for her. Can you picture your parents together as a couple? Yes, yes. And how were they together?

24:35They were, they had, I don't know, obviously. Children don't really know what on earth their parents are doing. No, I don't know. You don't know how intimate they were, how comfortable they were with each other? No, because they had different interests. My mother wasn't interested in music. and my father probably wasn't interested in poetry so they they were on different paths but they got along and they stayed together for the rest of their lives yes absolutely oh yes did they live a long life my mother did but my father no alas died when he was 60 oh yes yes so she was like you long lived yes and was she did she remarry no she came to live with me in london oh that was good yeah so she saw your success did he see some of your success Yes, the early days of it.

25:21Well, he came to RADA to see me play some big parts, you know, and he was very shy. He wouldn't want to say anything, you know. But my mother took to London like a duck to water. She loved O'Toole. They adored each other. We'll come on to your marriages in a moment. I remember hearing her on the phone when I was passing by one day, and she was on the downstairs phone, and she was saying, no, no, Sir Lawrence, no, no, I cannot, no, I cannot do that. No, no, Sir Lawrence, I am afraid, no, I have strict orders not to interrupt Mr. O'Toole until he has finished his work. That will be about four o 'clock.

26:09Right, thank you, Sir Lawrence, I'm sorry about that. Well, that's wonderful, this is Sir Lawrence Olivier. then running the National Theatre with Peter O'Toole, who was his first Hamlet there. Yes, indeed. Wow.

26:29But I haven't yet got you to the grammar school. Oh, no. You have this childhood where you are this ailing child, but quite content in your own way. Oh, very happy. Can you remember your best friend outside of the family? I do, I do. She was my Reese, and I need to get in touch with her. She lives in Coventry and she wrote to me recently and she didn't put her address on it. And I'm desperate to be in touch with her. What's the name again? Meyer, which is Mary in Welsh. Meyer Rees. We will definitely find a way of getting her to be in touch with you again. Oh, that would be wonderful. That is part of the Rosebud service.

27:03She was my best friend. She sent me a card saying, thank you for giving me a wonderful childhood in Welsh, she wrote. And she gave me a wonderful childhood. Wonderful. So eventually you have to go to school. It's decided somebody decides. Well, except they didn't know what to do with me because they didn't know it. Did I know anything? I'd never been to elementary school. They didn't know what I knew. So they thought they'd let me go and try the scholarship when I was nine. So I went and it was the arithmetic exam and I looked at it and I thought, four men filling a bath with, oh, I don't know about this.

27:43No, I won't do that. So I just looked out the window. I was a very patient child. And they said, so what did you do? I said, nothing. They said, nothing? I said, no, it was all about people filling baths with water and things like that. Oh, so what did you do? He said, I just looked out of the window. Because I went to a beautiful school. I looked out of the window and it was lovely. Oh, the following day it was the English exam. So I went to that. And I finished early, put my pen down and did some more. looking out of the window and I went home, my mother said what did you do? and I said, oh I just wrote an essay oh, what did you write?

28:26I wrote a usury she said, usury? yes, I said as in The Merchant of Venice she said you've read The Merchant of Venice she said, oh yes, yes so she didn't know what to make of this and her friend who was the head mistress i suppose said well this is extraordinary because she's got naught in arithmetic and she's got a hundred in english so we don't know i think she should have a scholarship so this was usury usury oh my goodness usury as in yes of course i now i wouldn't be able to write that essay i don't think. Anyway, I'd written it all. So I went to a grammar school, which I adored. I absolutely loved every second of it.

29:20What was it called? It was called Panto Dawe Grammar School. And my motto was, bid Ben, bid Bond. If you would be head of something, be a bridge. And I just loved the clothes. I loved the shoes, the belt, the blazer, the hat. I just loved everything about it. It's a wonderful school motto isn't it? It is very good. If you want to be the head. If you want to be the head be the bridge. Yeah oh oh yes yes it was very. And did you thrive there? I thrived I just loved it so much I adored everything about it it was thrilling but I did get ill halfway through the first year and I had to go to hospital.

30:01What was this this time? It was it was again scarlet fever another bout of scarlet fever so I had to restart when I was 10 which was more reasonable because a nine was very young to be in grammar school and did you catch up with things like mathematics and the sciences or never oh no no never no it was much too i couldn't even tell the time i'd never had i had no money i'd never handled money in my life still even in grammar school we didn't have money and was it just girls at the school no with boys as well but we were never allowed to speak to each other or look at each other. Is this for real?

30:38Yes, yes. We never did. No, absolutely not. No. So it was just lovely. I just loved everything about it. So this is really the end of the Second World War. And you've already in your head thought about being an actress. I was being an actress already. I was acting in things. School plays. And in school place and I was also entertaining quite a bit in um there was a movement called the miners welfare movement and there were they built uh concert halls in almost every village and a library there was a wonderful system I used to uh entertain them my I with I knew yards of poetry and stories I was a bit of a comedian at that time I used to tell them funny stories and things as a child And was it your mother who was encouraging this, given your...

31:29She wasn't encouraging it. She was allowing it. She was very strict. She was a bit distant and quite strict. She was allowing it. And she would sometimes pick out a good piece. She said, that's a better piece than that. I would do that if I were you. And you were doing a mixture of Welsh and English? A mixture of Welsh and English, yes. And jokes that you devised yourself? I fancied myself as a bit of a comedian. And I would say, that joke didn't go very well. she said no because it's not very funny try this try this i was never discouraged i just used to re redo my program my my um i could do a whole evening i loved it and we're talking about you age 10 or 11 this sort of age yes i loved it and of course they have this wonderful tradition in wales of the ice dead fodder oh yes and i imagine oh yes i'd win that every saturday i'd win that i I'd travel somewhere every Saturday and win the under-16 and the under-21.

32:27And I sometimes would even put myself forward for the championship, which is ridiculous, of course, a little thing like this. No, but I think you won the actual national, the Welsh national, I stayed for. Oh, yes, I did, when I was 11. Well, that's pretty impressive. Yes, it was, and that started my broadcasting career. 1944? Yes, it was. You won the whole thing, the whole country, the best performer in the whole land. And so did Meyer Rees. Meyer was my, it was a duet, as it were, a duo, what would you call it when two people talk? Yes, duet. A double act. Double act. It was a double act of two men, one a very cheerful man and his more depressed self.

33:07So my mother taught us how to do this, how to play depressed and what to do, whether to sit or stand. So we just won. And it was completely unexpected. infected and my was very nervous she nearly didn't do it and you get a trophy to get a medal or a badge did we get anything no we i think we got a certificate but i got a career out of it i got a broadcasting career how did that come about well they came to take us to the to pick up the winners and take us to the uh fit up studio on the field and i did my piece and then they rang up and said would I like to go and do something else on Children's Hour?

33:47And you appeared on Children's Hour? Yeah. And what did you do for them? Oh, I would do things, read poetry, do little plays. So you'd go to Broadcasting House in Cardiff, I assume? In Swansea. And Cardiff, Swansea and Cardiff were within reach. And you just took this in your stride? You thought, this is what I do, this is me? Yes, yes. And my mother said, no, if your grades at school drop one, it's all over you're not going to do any more of this so I said okay and they never did and at the grammar school were there special teachers for you who encouraged you who helped you, is there one that stands out yes, my gym mistress she gave me a lifelong love of gymnastics which is so useful, well this is why you're so fit yes it is I owe it all to Miss Inking and she was English.

34:40Miss Inky? Miss Inkin. Inkin. She was very remarkable. She taught me not to curl my hair and she taught me not to wear very ugly things that were fashionable at that time. She taught me to wear different things and flat shoes and she taught me, she took me to the opera. She taught me a lot of things. Oh, tremendous. And she gave me yards of material to make concert dresses and she said they have to be very, very plain. And she was wonderful to me and she became friends with my mother. Oh, that was useful. Which was very useful. But she believed in the classic look and she had clearly impeccable taste.

35:22Yeah, she did. Can you remember your first crush? Yes, but I knew it was a bit silly even at the time. I just did it because everybody else was doing it, I think. I didn't really take it very seriously. Who was it? I can't remember his name. But just the idea. It was the idea. I went to the pictures and we held hands. But I thought, I don't think I can do this. I can't let... Who was your first boyfriend? Did you have a boyfriend when you were still at school? At school, no. No, I was too busy. I was just too busy. My God. So here you are at school, clearly doing very well in the good subjects, ignoring anything that you weren't good at.

36:00Oh, yes, yes. Loving the theatrical life. Yes. Living really almost independently of your parents because they are doing their thing in their own way. You're just forging ahead, now broadcasting, taking all this in your stride. And what is your ambition in life at that stage as a teenager? Oh, I wanted to go to RADA. I found out that there was this place called RADA. And that's where I wanted to go. So this is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. And did many girls, teenage girls from South Wales, go to RADA? No, no. I don't think any went to RADA. No. So how did it happen? Well, I just, I mentioned this to my mother, who said, absolutely not.

36:45Absolutely, no way, no way. You have to go to university. And I said, but I want to be an actress, you know. She said, no, you can do what you like afterwards, but you have to go to university. So I stopped arguing about it. I could see that it was upsetting her, and I could see why. Because acting is so insecure, and they'd grown up in insecurity. So it seemed awful somehow to insist that I was going to do this. So I just shut up about it. I didn't talk about it anymore. But I was working a lot. I was even in the first film ever made at the BBC in Wales at that time. I mean, I was really working a lot, very hard.

37:28So as a teenager you played... As a teenager, yeah. And what was the part in the first television? I was a downtrodden, poor housewife walking the street trying to beg for money. I don't know what the rest of the story was supposed to be. But can you remember what you had to think in your head to become a downtrodden housewife? I don't know. I thought it was so funny because his name was Antonida Lobinier. Oh, he's famous. Is he? Oh, he's a famous director. He was standing in this little village street up in a valley. I didn't know in a town I didn't know and I only had a vague grasp of what I was supposed to do but he was he was standing in the middle of the street saying now I want all you lovely little people to get back inside your cottages do not put your head through the windows no no I'm sorry not through the window I don't want to see anybody for five minutes and I was just I was standing there waiting to walk down the street laughing.

38:33I thought, it was so funny. It was such a funny way to talk. I thought he was a character. Well, he became quite famous. Did he? And I think, I'm right in saying, he was educated at Eton. So your impression of him is... He was a bit of a card.

38:51Well done, you. So all this was happening to you. So you knew theatre was your destiny. Film was your destiny. Oh, yes, yes. But was it Cardiff University you applied for? Yes, I did. Did you get a place? I did. Well, no, I got a place in London. Oh. Because I thought I could go to plays. Of course. But then they announced that nobody aged 16 was allowed in England anyway, in any university. You had to be 17, and I was only 16. So I had to, I thought, okay, I will go to Cardiff. So I went to Cardiff. For how long? I was there for four years. Oh, full Cardiff. Yeah, but I didn't like it. Did you graduate?

39:28Did you get a degree? I did just graduate, but I didn't graduate in the subject I was supposed to do. Which was what? English. I graduated in philosophy in the end, which I much preferred. I don't know why, but I was in the BBC all the time. The front door of the BBC was opposite the back door of the university. So I just whizzed from one to the other, from five o 'clock in the morning on, because I became an announcer as well. You're a phenomenon. No, I'm not. From five o 'clock in the morning? Is that when you're going in to do the sort of early weather forecast or something? Yes, that's right.

40:03To open the station. Yes, because I was so junior that I did all the... I loved it. I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was the most glamorous thing in the world. And reading the news was just... My mother was terrified. Because you have to tell the time all the time if you're an announcer. You say, the time now is... Or we're just coming up to... my mother thought she'll never ever do this she will never be able to do it but I did manage to do it I got sacked once because I'm very dreamy but I really pulled myself together I think I lost about two stones in weight I was in a state of nerves the whole time and but I loved it I absolutely adored it were you attractive you clearly had energy yes I was through your energy Yes, because I didn't bother much with makeup.

40:58So at Cardiff, you must have had your first proper romance. Oh, yeah, I had quite a lot. Yes, oh, yes, I had quite a few romances when I was in Cardiff. Is that where you met your first husband? Unfortunately, yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, we fell out before we got engaged, you know, and everyone got engaged in those days. They kept getting engaged and then unengaged. But you went through with it? i had gone off the whole prospect because i i couldn't see how i could get out of wales and to london to rada and be married i i didn't understand how this was going to happen so i told him this i said this is not going to this isn't just isn't going to work i'm afraid and he he is dead now so it's all right because he said well i i'll throw myself off the bridge if you don't marry me and and i was too young i was about 19 i was too young to know that people would say that and actually having a hearty breakfast when you read the note saying i'm going to throw myself off the bridge i didn't realize i thought he would do it well he wouldn't have done it of course but he was a brilliant um scholar oh good very very brilliant and he was a French scholar and he was in Paris a lot of the time and I ran away, I married him.

42:17I married him? I'm afraid because he was threatening to kill himself. But already you knew this isn't going to last. I knew it wasn't going to last. The only way of getting off my back is to marry him now. There's nothing else to do. So we had a gloomy gloomy marriage. It was terrible. And then he went back to France and I ran away to London. Oh, that was it. I just ran, I did a bunk. And? Which was not, I'm not at all proud of any of this. I know it's not nice and it's not good. But did it end okay for him in the sense that did he find a wife in due course? I don't know. Oh, well, let's hope it did.

42:58Let's hope it did. Well, I hope it did. You know? A more suitable person. Yeah. Yes, I hope so. Yeah. Because you were very brilliant, I can see. You literally ran away, you ran away from him. He had gone to France to do some work. He'd gone to France. And you thought, this is my chance. This is my chance. We had taken a flat, and I gave up my job at the BBC, did all that, and off I went to do an audition. And when you left Wales to go for this audition at RADA, did you think to yourself, goodbye Wales, this is the end? No, no, I didn't. I didn't know that it would work. I thought I might get there and everyone would be better than I am.

43:37No, no, not at all. So I just thought I'd be as good as I possibly can be. And I got to London and I'd been very unhappy in Cardiff. I didn't like towns. You know, I liked being in the countryside. It was awful. So I thought I'm going to hate London more than Cardiff because it's bigger. There's more to hate. And so I got to Farrington and I got, my foot touched the platform. And I thought, oh, this is wonderful. This is, everything is wonderful. And it was dirty and it was after the war and there were gaps in the streets and there were flowers growing in the pavements and it was, there was no food.

44:20We were still rationed. The food was disgusting. There were no restaurants. I suppose the hotels, big hotels would be, but we couldn't go there. And it was just the best place I'd ever imagined. so I went to Rada and I did my piece what was your piece? one piece was a piece of the bible would you believe which I was advised to do and the other piece was a song from Shakespeare which one? Desdemona's song before she gets when she's taking her jewellery off before she gets and it was well it was like magic because I came out and they said, well, yes, you're in. They said, told me straight away, you've got a place.

45:10And they said, if you want a scholarship, you have to come back in two days and do another audition. I said, fine. So I did, and I came out, and Nana Brown was the sort of secretary person to the principal, and she was standing outside, and she was crying, and I was crying, and she gave me her hanky. and they said yes you've got a scholarship so you know start next term oh wonderful and it was the most wonderful moment of my life it was how did your parents feel about it when you told them the news they were remarkably good actually they weren't thrilled and they weren't it wasn't what they wanted for me at all no because who knows if you'll ever get a job when you finish this RADA business.

45:55No, it wasn't what they wanted, but they said, okay, we'll, you know. Because they must also have been concerned that you and your husband had partied. They knew that was, I'd had to go to tell them that I was going to do it, obviously. Yes, they knew all that, and they were very supportive, quite unexpectedly. And among the people who are your contemporaries at RADA, this is the mid-1950s? Yes. I didn't notice anybody there. Well, I tell you, they noticed you? I had my head down the whole time I was I just worked worked I I knew what I wanted to do and I knew what I wanted and I knew where I wanted to go and I knew what I wanted out of Radha I knew what I wanted.

46:39And what did you want out of Radha? I wanted um I wanted a whole level of polish and and I sort of ignored the stuff I didn't want and I knew what I wanted. It's always been your style who needs money who needs to tell the time? Yeah yes I'm just going to be a great actress that's it and you were because did you win prizes yes i did yeah of course you did you won the main prize didn't you yeah what was the part you played i played magda which had been played by um duzer and ben hart last in london they played it together magda suderman a play by suderman called magda and it had been played at the same time in london by Eleonora Duzer and Bernhardt.

47:23They both played it at the same time. One in French and one in Italian. So you're pitching yourself with the international greats. Yes, I was a little bit... I did think I'd gone too far. Yes. But anyway. No mere Edith Evans or Sybil Thorndike for you. Oh, no. I'm going to be Duzer. Well... Bernhardt. Yeah, it was... Known by your surname alone. It did go very well. Well done. And so people, agents came to see you? Yes, yes. And then was lift-off? It wasn't, it wasn't. It was strange. It was, nobody could quite decide. I was offered three Hollywood contracts while I was still at RADA. And a play in the West End while I was still at RADA.

48:07And it was an amazing time. I obviously didn't share this information with anybody because I was a bit embarrassed about it. but I was um and I had a boyfriend at that point and um I it was really difficult because um everything was being thrown at me and the best agent in London came to see me and asked me please will you come to me you know I didn't have to go to her and and uh Michael Balkan came and offered me a contract I mean it was all so Hollywood contracts British contract yeah did you say yes to any of this? No. They said, they did say to me, it was about a year before the takeoff of the North Country lads, you know, Tool and Finney and all that lot.

48:58And at RADA, they said to me at the time, no, we haven't trained you for the movies, so you won't accept any of that. No movies. I said, no, of course not. Do you regret that a bit now? No, no, I wouldn't have enjoyed. You know, the parts in in american movies were not good at that point you needed to be kind of blonde and you needed to be dressed in pink with a little belt very tiny waist and a big cotton skirt and little flat shoes and you had to be cheerful well that wasn't my style i wouldn't i wouldn't have done well i don't think so what did you do nothing at the moment for a bit and then somebody solved the problem and said there's a man here who wants to invest in theater and he has decided that should be that he should invest in you therefore he will pay you to do nothing he gave you a stipend every week he gave me a stipend so i was able to do um things that i thought i might like or that would be good and and they said and you're not ready for the west end oh they said you are you you're very good but you are not ready and they were right you know it would have been too much and were you living with his boyfriend by now or was i living with him would have been a bit unusual actually oh my gosh this is not the way no a nice girl from south wales no well that had gone i'm afraid that had gone also you were an ex-married woman did you divorce quite quickly no i had a terrible terrible time trying to get divorced terrible because he didn't particularly want to No.

50:35As a matter of fact, at one point, I think I was divorced in Mexico and married. I'd met O'Toole by this time, I'm afraid. When you introduce each of your husbands, you say, well, I've met him by this time, I'm afraid. I think that'll be the same thing when we get to your third husband. Anyway, you've mentioned O'Toole, as you call him. I would call him Peter O'Toole. because, as you rightly say, he and that set have become the noise of the late 1950s. They were wonderful.

51:16And how did you meet O'Toole? I met O'Toole on a pavement outside the Spaghetti House, just down from Gower Street. Still there, the Spaghetti House. and I just looked at him and I thought well I guess we will marry in a few years time and then I didn't think about him ever again this is for real the spaghetti house in Gower Street that's near Radha yes I'm still at Radha he came up from Bristol to see something not me and there he is he's tall he's blonde he's blue eyed and these people are all laughing and joking I didn't know any of them from Bristol. So I was just waiting to go back to RADA.

52:00So I went back to RADA and I thought, well, I guess that I will marry him. But I didn't want to. I mean, I didn't know anything about him. You've never lacked ambition. Well done, you. Well, he wasn't doing well then. I mean, he was a great sort of figure at Bristol, but he wasn't in the big scheme of things anything special. but he was um i just thought i would marry him and how did you rediscover each other when did that well we didn't really we did a play together and we played brother and sister and we became very friendly is all i can say we we didn't uh fall in love or anything i don't think we did and we he had a guitar and i could sing and we used to sing a lot after the show and And we never, never did any lovemaking or anything like that.

52:54We were just friends. And we had a wonderful time touring this terrible play that got worse and worse and worse as we went further north on the disappearing circuit. Can you remember what the play was called? Well, it was called Many Things because they very often thought the title might help make it a success. Oh, they lift... At one point it was called The Girls in Their Pretty Dresses.

53:19but we just did the play and we had a lovely time and you sat up all night we sat up all night not drinking no drinking coffee maybe drinking well he would he would have a quarter bottle of scotch in his pocket but i didn't drink at all in those days and we would just sing folk songs all night and we would very often wake up fully dressed sitting upright with a guitar between us having fallen asleep you know so it was very innocent very innocent i imagine i mean i knew him towards the end of his life and he was effortlessly charming oh yes and was he like that as a young person oh yes i thought he was lovely i thought he was lovely and so when did it turn into a romance later when we were back in london and he took off his career took off in a meteoric way.

54:08Well, we were married by then and we were living in Stratford-on-Avon and our first daughter had been born before he took off, as you say. And was it the taking off that ruined it? No, not at all. No, we got married and we started to disagree almost immediately. It didn't work out at all well and I thought, God, I've got to stick with this. I can't run away again. You know, so... But what changed in the fact of getting married? I don't know what happened. I just don't know. But it was agony. It was just terrible. And I had a child as well. I'd never seen a baby. I'd never been in the same room as a baby.

54:50I knew nothing. I had a book, Dr. Spock. And that was all. I mean, I just... Dr. Spock was so good. Oh, thank God for Dr. Spock. We brought up our children on Dr. Spock. I just didn't know anything. So I was able to bring her up. but he was having, he was the one that wanted to have children. It never occurred to me that I might have children. Never. And he said, no, no, we must have children. And did he then want you to be the mother? Was it rather like replaying your own mother many years before? She couldn't go on with her career. Was there an expectation still? This is only the late 50s, early 60s, that the woman, is that what he wanted you to be the mother and be at home?

55:30No, he would never say that. He would never be stupid enough to say that. No, I think that's what he would have liked. Although he was a great fan. I knew he was a fan of mine. But he suddenly... Well, he suddenly took off. He went to London and I was left with a baby and a job. I was working at the theatre in Stratford and a house. And it was just... It was a terrible time. It was awful. And did he then begin playing the field while expecting... No, he wouldn't do that. Oh, good. No, no, no. So where ultimately did it go wrong, ultimately? I don't know. He went off to be Lawrence of Arabia. And that was it?

56:13By the time he did that... And by the time he got there, it was all all right again. Oh. I don't know why. I was living in London and everything became all right again. So how long did the marriage last? 20 years oh well done yeah what did he give you oh everything is such an excitement i mean wonderful talent i mean it was it was wonderful to live with somebody so brilliant i really loved being there i wanted to work unfortunately and he used to organize it so that i couldn't i didn't know how he did it sometimes but a good 12 years went by in the middle of it all where I could only work if I knew that he was going to be away for a certain amount of time or if I was doing something so lowly that he wouldn't think it was a threat in any way I used to have to choose yeah what might have been the golden years I missed the 20s throughout your 30s I missed those because yeah and by accident when I did by accident have a big success in something.

57:25It was, I was right, it was very bad news. It was extremely bad. I mean, he was... But in a way, extraordinary that he should, I mean, this is jealousy, isn't it? This is his... It's fear, I think. It's fear of being upstaged? No, he knew I wouldn't do that. I don't know what. I don't think he worked it out. I don't think he worked it out. And he had a very, very good company of men behind him. You know, he had a production company, and they didn't know where I was from Adam. And they just, they said, no, it's fine. She can do what she wants as long as she doesn't get in his way, because he was the money, you know.

58:08And did he become one of those people, I knew a few of them, like Richard Burton, Richard Harris, who drank too much? Yes, but he'd been doing that from way back. Yes, he'd been, except for the period when we were in this first play and just singing songs all night. He was drinking. He could afford to drink more. He couldn't afford it before. From that era, what are the parts that you remember you playing that gave you satisfaction? Oh, well, they were plays that became accidental successes. I remember one play in what's the suburb of London where they have a theatre which has got a wrestling booth as well and boxing and there's a theatre that was created round about that time where you went up in the lift backstage with the wrestlers when you came off after Act One and yes it was it's the sort of thing that Joan Littlewood would have liked to do she would but it was I can't remember where it was the back of beyond you know nobody I thought I can I've been offered this wonderful part I've always wanted to play this part and it's being done in a totally totally unremarkable place and it'll all be over in a month so I'll do it and I said and he said oh that'll be nice for you that'll be lovely well it was such a success that we were offered seven theaters in the morning after and people then writing the papers of course you know when all the applauses for mrs o'toole it all became and he was difficult about that but that was i loved it it was it was um a tennessee williams play and i i and tennessee came over and tennessee wrote another play for me and it it all forgive me just for a line to throw away tennessee wrote another play yes he did this is tennessee williams writing williams i know he adapted a play for me and o'toole's company wouldn't lend us 500 pounds to bring it into town it was offered a transfer and he couldn't bring it into town some of this would have made you so it made me unhappy who did you talk to about being nobody i had no friends that was one of the deals really i i led a very solitary life i didn't all the friends I'd made in the theatre I couldn't see them anymore I could see very few people I could go very few places but you had your was it just one child or two children no I had two children eventually and my mother and the dog but you didn't share this with your mother no of course not so you just kept going yeah I thought well maybe this is it this is how it's going to be I had to leave him before I could get to the contentment bit i mean i since i left him i've been working flat out which i love yeah of course you do you did have i met a third husband briefly well no that was a terrible mistake that was a terrible mistake rest assured i've not mentioned and i didn't want that to happen he just turned up one day with a with a um a special license you call them said we're getting married in the morning and i we're having a breakfast there and we're doing this and everybody's been invited and I was too tired to say no we can't do this.

1:01:28This is your style. He moved on pretty quickly didn't he? Not quickly enough no not quickly enough. I mean it stopped happening you know it became an arid sort of horrible thing but it went on for about 10 years being a horrible thing. Oh yeah it was difficult. It was also very expensive. Oh moving on from him. Yeah yeah yeah. Well, there we are. Yeah. We move on. However, yes, yes. Now, when I mention your name to people, say you're doing the podcast, what is the programme, the television series, they immediately say? Of course, I, Claudius. Yes. Yes, of course. How did that come about? Oh, just in an ordinary way.

1:02:09I was doing How Green Was My Valley for the same producer. And he came in with a pile of scripts and plugged them on my dressing room table and said, how about that for your next one then? And I opened it and it said, she looks up through her wizened eyelashes and I said, oh, Martin, not another no-makeup job. And he said, I think you'll find there's more to it than that. So I took it home and rang him and said, of course I would do it, yeah. Well, people still remember it. Oh, yes, I know. It was a lovely, lovely job to do. everything everything that the british were in a sort of golden period of television at that point it was they even gave us a dinner in the state department in america to find out why was it we were doing so well and and of course the answer was scripts we had wonderful scripts of the many performances of yours i've seen the one that always comes into my head is you as marlena dietrich oh yeah because i saw marlena dietrich yes and a daughter yes beyond all adoring yes and i think it's very difficult to play a star yes unless you are a star yeah and you pulled it off it's a very ambitious thing to play marlena dietrich yes it was my my i had a very creative agent called sarah randall and she was a very absent-minded woman in many ways whereas since when I went off to make a film called Dune there were I think 23 featured players in it but she'd forgotten to give me a stop date to negotiate a stop date so I was there for a year because every time I started to get into the groove they'd say oh sorry we've got Sting coming in could you go back to the hotel and read a book for a bit because we've got to get Sting out of here we've only got him for two days Yes, exactly.

1:04:06So, I mean, I was there for a year. But she was ambitious, and she was a wonderful agent in many ways. And she said, ask Pam Gems, ask her, would she write you a play about Marlena? I said, but I don't know anything about Marlena. Why would I play Marlena? I don't know, I don't sing, I don't, what, why? She said, never mind, ask her. I said, I can't ask her, I'm too shy. She said, ask her. After about a week, I asked her, and she said, oh, hmm yes i'll think about it and within a week the post through the letterbox came a script so we started work on it but it took forever because all the music had to be done and the songs and the voice and the and and i was very lucky to have a director who let me watch every piece of footage of marlena that's ever been made i think i watched it and and in the songs he'd say no, the finger goes up on that word, and no, you look down here.

1:05:07It was just, I had to copy what she did, you know, to start with, and it was fascinating. But it was about four years of my life. But it was fabulous, that's what I'm saying. Well, it was nice, wasn't it? Of all the, you've met extraordinary people, you've worked with extraordinary people, who stands out as the people you've either learnt from or never want to think of again? the outstanding figures? Oh, O'Toole and Tennessee.

1:05:46Any women? I don't think so. I don't think so. Are you a successful mother? I don't think I know anything about mothering. I was working quite hard, you know, for a lot of their childhood. And I just didn't know anything about children. My mother would... I remember I was exasperated with one of my children who was a really nice girl, and I said, how can you be so, how can you say that? How can you be so stupid? How can you be so childish? My mother was standing at the door, and she said, she is a child. She is a child. She is a child.

1:06:42So I don't see myself as a, no. We're nearly at the end now. When I say to you a moment of sadness, what comes into your head? A moment of sadness.

1:06:59I wish I'd known my parents better. You regret that. Were you with your father when he died? No, I wasn't. You were away working. I was in London and he was in Wales. And did that throw you terribly? Because he sounds like a good man. Yes, he was a lovely man. A lovely man. And there's a sadness when you feel there was disappointment in his life. Yes, he was a disappointed man, but he was a lovely man. And your mother came to live with you. Was that easy? It worked out fine. Yes, it's fine. I just gave her all the work. She loved doing it. And I didn't know how to do it. So I just, I sacked the housekeeper.

1:07:44I sacked the cook. my mother became it wonderful she loved it yes she i'm i mean i remember one oh tool used to invite people to the house and then get bored with them and go to bed and i would come in from work and think who is this person i don't on the couch well at one point i discovered james baldwin had been sleeping downstairs the great james waldwin the great james african-american writer yes had been sleeping downstairs and talking to my mother i never spoke to him he was he had been living in my house and had sort of settled in in in the in the kitchen excuse me how does this come about this is because of o'too must have invited him to the house without telling anybody and he turned up and o'too i don't know was out or at work or something or and i was at work or and it was possible to to to come to this house and not know what went on in in every room he was the best talker i think i've ever heard well you're very lucky i don't know what a sort of talker i mean he was the most brilliant man i know he was brilliant i do understand this is extraordinary it was this is happening in your house in my house it's so chaotic his life there your husband is making a movie and james baldwin is in the kitchen in the kitchen with your mother with my mother what what age was she when she died oh she was 80 82 i think 82 but she she died from lung cancer because she took up smoking again yes her mother was 95 when she died and my mother would have lived longer yeah of course it's lucky you come from a long-lived family and her dying that was traumatic for you or because she was old and ill you took it in your right?

1:09:36I more or less took it in my, no it was, no it was sad, it was sad. A moment of joy, a moment of joy, we're nearly through, give me what comes into your head when I say Sian, a moment of joy. A moment of joy, there were many, many, many moments of joy, I think I laughed more when I was married to O'Toole than I did at any other time. did you call him O'Toole when he was there yes and what did he call you Stan I hope no no he didn't I don't even know that he knew that story no no well no only my friends from way back called me there so you're contented I am I've always been pretty happy actually I've managed yeah and you've been quite a presence in your own head haven't you yeah yeah it's been all right whatever's happening in the rest of the world you've been going on so what have you learnt from life we end with a little message what have you learnt what's life taught you Sian well I think I've learned just to well not to try and control it too much actually to deal with it as it as it comes and not to force it maybe that's a bad thing not to force it in too many different directions just to see what's good about what turns up I'm so glad you turned up here today Dame Sian Phillips thank you for being with us on Rosebud you're just the best thank you for having me

1:11:28Thank you.

1:12:14Well, I hope you'll agree, Dame Charles Phillips is a truly remarkable person. For me, that was a very fascinating, satisfying, enjoyable conversation. what a woman and my goodness actually how lucky those guys were to be married to her i don't think any of them gave her a very easy time but anyway that's neither here nor there she is fantastic if you've enjoyed listening to this and you'd like to see dame shan we are now on youtube so all the recent episodes and clips i think from some earlier ones they're all available to be found on youtube some people like seeing what's going on and if you do all you do is go to youtube you search rosebud podcast and you should find us that's where we are on youtube in vision people do like to find us in different places some people find us via our facebook group we're rather lucky in having a facebook group these are just people who love rosebud and have got together on facebook and chat to one another in something that they call rosebud reflections i haven't yet shared any of my reflections with Rosebud Reflections.

1:13:23I know Harriet has, but that's the Facebook group. If you are wanting to actually check through who we have had as guests, you know, there I was saying we've had almost every dame, and I think we have, but if you want to see the range of dames, and we don't just mean theatrical dames, we've had also people like Dame Mary Berry, for example, Dame Prue Leith. You may not be seeing her on Bake Off so much in the future, but you can always listener on Rosebud. The website has got all those details. It's simply www.rosebudpodcast.co.uk rosebudpodcast.co.uk. And of course, if you want to get in touch with us, you simply email hello at rosebudpodcast.com.

1:14:08Hello at rosebudpodcast.com. And bear in mind, the only person who gets those emails is Harriet. Harriet Jane, our producer, my friend, she sees all the emails. Some she forwards to me. She does her best to reply to as many as she can. But you can imagine she gets quite a lot of emails. So if she's a bit slow in replying, well, send her another email saying, why are you being so slow? No, understand and be sympathetic. Actually, if you want to know what we are like together, Ariat and I, we've taken to doing something that we put into the Rosebud family. Do you know about the Rosebud family? Have I told you about this?

1:14:47This is, I mean, And as you know, Rosebud is every Tuesday, every Friday. More Rosebud every Tuesday. Rosebud, classic Rosebud, every Friday. Like today with Dame Sean Phillips. But if you can't get enough of us, you can become a member of the Rosebud family. It's a subscription. You pay, I don't know what it is, I think$4.99 a month. And you get ad-free listening. And you get extra episodes. My murder mystery. We go on trips down memory lane together. Harriet and I and also we've taken to doing something that's quite fun it's just getting together at the end of the week and saying what's been happening to you this week?

1:15:25I'll give you a flavour of it I'll give you a flavour of our last chat which is now available on the Rosebud family platform and if you want to subscribe to it you simply go to patreon.com forward slash rosebud that's www.patreon.com forward slash rosebud and it's quite simple to follow. And this gives you a taste of Harriet and me chatting away. The French, I think it's marvellous. There isn't a word for diary in French. Well, there is, like agende for a kind of appointments diary. Agenda. But it's a journal intime. Oh, an intimate journal. Yeah, exactly, which is what a diary is, which is, I think, rather special.

1:16:14I was thinking about my journal intime because I dipped into it recently because Brigitte Barbeau died. I know, I thought of you that day. Did she, were you one of the last men on her lips? Was she thinking of you on her, as she breathed her last? I don't know why you're going to mock me. I wish I had had one night with Charles Ferrander. I have to say, Harriet and I, well, I'm having fun. And so what we're doing, there's a bonus episode of some kind every week. usually on a Sunday, that's when it drops, and it's either an episode of my Candlelight Murders murder mystery, or it's Harriet and me on a trip down memory lane, or it's Harriet and me chuntering on at the end of a busy week telling you what we have been up to.

1:17:03So if you want to subscribe, join the family, as I say, it's£4.99 a month, plus VAT, I think if you're in the UK, and you go to patreon.com, P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com forward slash Rosebud. If you want to get in touch with us, it's hello at rosebudpodcast.com. And look, there is an email I wanted to share with you this week. It's from Rachel Castle. Good name, Rachel Castle. Love that. She's lowered the ramparts in order to write to us. Rachel says, hello, Giles and Harriet. My first memory was when I was four years old. I remember watching footage of the moon landing in 1969 while eating beans on toast at a little green felted card playing table, which was just the right height for me.

1:17:53The card table later became a feature of many family rows with my parents and three sisters playing Jim Rummy. Not sure of the spelling. I'm not sure, Rachel, you got it right at all. I thought it was called Gin Rummy. Anyway, never mind. Anyway, on she goes. Unfortunately, after watching this historic event I accidentally stood on a tube of strawberry-flavoured toothpaste Which squeezed onto the carpet I was then in trouble with my mum So all in all, a memorable evening Keep podcasting, you two I love it Best wishes, Rachel Castle Well, I have to say, we love it Hearing from you I do think that's fantastic At one end of the scale people are landing on the moon for the first time in human history at the other there is Rachel standing on a tube of strawberry flavored toothpaste and both events are of equal significance in her mind and now in my mind too I don't think I'll ever be able to see a picture of Neil Armstrong or Buzz Aldrin without thinking of strawberry flavored toothpaste I remember that night vividly because I was still young, I was living at home, and my father woke me up to see the actual moment, got me to come into the sitting room and watch it on television.

1:19:12Wow. Also, we had a green felt card playing table, but ours was the height of a normal table. This sounds like it was a kind of table top that you could put on top of another table, which was why it was the right height for a four-year-old to eat at. Yeah, well, I must explore that further. We've still got that card table. The felt is peeling a bit, but I love playing at it because I used to play bridge with my parents. Michelle, my wife and I, used to play bridge. Oh, those were the days. Anyway, enough of this reminiscing. I hope you're sleeping well. I'll just share this with you. I've not been sleeping well recently, and I think we've got to do something about that.

1:19:57I keep having these. I think they're anxiety dreams. Oh, the one last night. Basically, I was somewhere in the city of London and I was already, well, I left in good time. But to get to my destination, I kept losing my way. I couldn't get a bus. I couldn't find a taxi. There were no underground stations. The street sign names were too far high up. I kept desperate to find the place and I could, am I boring you? That's it. That was Rosebud. I know when Harriet's had enough. She just stops me in mid-flow. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. We love being with you. Until next time.

1:21:00Thank you.

1:21:24Thank you.