Gyles's diary, episode 20

0:00Calvin Coolidge was a president of the United States of America and he was notoriously taciturn. he really didn't have much small talk and there was a young woman who was seated next to him when he was president in the White House at a dinner and she turned to him and said Mr. President, Mr. President I have a bet on, an important bet on that I can get more than two words out of you Mr. President he turned to her and he said you lose keep it brief this is more Rosebud you're welcome to it

0:55Hello and welcome to More Rosebud. My name is Giles Brandreth and because this is More Rosebud, we have more to offer you, including our very special producer, my friend, and indeed now your friend, Harriet Jane. How's your week been, Harriet? Oh, very good, yeah. Quite hot. It's quite hot, isn't it? Been to any parties? I went to a party last weekend, and I'm going out for supper tonight. What was the party last weekend? It was a local thing where I live in North London with a lot of friends of mine, and it was fun, yeah. And the dinner tonight? That's with, it's with Anne Reid's son. Oh, Anne Reid, our guest, the distinguished actress.

1:39Yeah. Now in her 90s, famous for all sorts of things, including appearing in that lovely series with Derek Jacoby. Yes. Who actually, I bumped... Last Tango in Halifax. Last Tango in Halifax. I bumped into Derek Jacoby. Oh. And I said to him... Sorry. Rosebud. Right. That's a bit quite funny. Well, it was actually, I mean, I know name dropping is what I'm about. but it was like a name dropper's paradise. One of my excitements this week was going to the recording studios at Penguin Random House because I'd been recording the audio for my new book that comes out in September which is a biography of A.A.

2:17Milne, the creator of Winnie the Pooh because next year will be the centenary of Winnie the Pooh and it's about his life and his family and particularly his son, the real Christopher Robin who I knew got to know in the 1980s. I knew him. I mean, we've had this conversation. Oh, because he was down at Dartmouth. Because he ran the Harbour Bookshop where we used to go all the time. My father hung out there the whole time. Well, we might have your father in for an episode one day. He was good friends with Christopher. Around the time of the publication of my book, we ought to do something proper, I think, about the whole phenomenon of being Christopher Robin.

2:54And the fact that you remember it and your father hung around there, it was partly because you knew it was Christopher Robin. wasn't it? Yeah so my father ran the big restaurant in that town in Dartmouth the Carved Angel it was called and so he just knew everyone and one of the people he knew well was Christopher Milne because he ran the bookshop and it was I don't know I used to spend my Saturdays at the bookshop at the butcher at the baker at the delicatessen at the going around with my dad sort of doing the rounds and um but the harbour bookshop he would my dad would spend hours there hanging out in the stock room chatting to Christopher and the other people that work there.

3:31And so, yeah, my editions of Winnie the Pooh are signed by Christopher Milne, which I was always really proud of. Well, you're right to be. The real Christopher Robin. They are collector's items. Yeah. They can only be done once. There can only be one real Christopher Robin, and it was him. And the price he paid for that and the fact of how he became reconciled to being Christopher Robin is all part and parcel of his very intriguing story. Anyway, I've been recording this, And recording an audiobook is exhausting. I bet. Trying to keep the voice fresh and keep interest up. Does your throat get tired?

4:07Your throat does get tired. And I had a very precise producer who was like you are. She was very, very anxious about quality. And so, you know, we did have to take breaks. I did do endless retakes. A lot of water was drunk. So a lot of going to the loo. So I did basically, I think, three full days. and then three or even four half days. In a way, it was better doing the half days. But in one studio, on one side of me, was Sir Derek Jacoby. Oh. And who I've asked to be on Rosebud, and I hope he'll be a treat in store, because you mentioned Anne Reid, that's how we've gone into this. Yeah. And in the studio, the other side of me was another theatrical night who has not yet been a guest of ours, Sir Simon Russell Beale.

4:52Oh, wow. Gosh, you were absolutely chocker with the great and the good. I was. Two greats and me trying to be good enough. And that's what it was like. And I think Simon Russell Beeler was doing a novel by John le Carré. Oh, I see. He was just reading an audio book. As was Daring Jacoby. They weren't doing their own work. They were doing great work and you need a great actor to do something like John le Carré. And Simon was telling me that John le Carré himself asked for him to do it. Really? Which is quite a compliment. Wow. So he felt obliged to do it. But he was so amusing at the lunch break.

5:28So that last character had to make them Dickensian. I mean, it was so Dickensian. I mean, he suddenly became a great... I mean, it was like seeing our friend Miriam Margolis. Yeah. You know who we've had on Rosebud. I mean, she does Dickens amazing. She does Dickens. Amazing. I think she's going back to the Edinburgh Fringe to do more Dickens. Oh, that I would... Is she going this year? Yeah. Oh, because I might go to Edinburgh for a few days. So I'll go and watch that. Please do. Oh, well. So, this is a reminder to regular listeners. Do check out the archive, because we've now got more than 100 episodes tucked away there for you to enjoy, including people like Miriam Margulies.

6:07I've got to pronounce it correctly. Margulies. It is Margulies, isn't it? So, she is there. Rhymes with fleas, do you remember? Is that what she told us? She said, and you said, rhymes with knobbly knees. Oh, because she was showing us her knobbly knees. And then she showed you her knees. She lifted her skirts. What is fascinating about her, Do listen to the episode. She is both outrageous and at times ridiculous, but also at times so shrewd and touching. And then when she performs some Dickens for us, you feel this is such a privilege, isn't it? Oh, amazing. Such an amazing. I mean, we have been very, very privileged on this podcast.

6:44Anyway, that's all by the by. Do we have some emails before we do the diaries? Because it's email day, diary day. What do you want to do? We do. Well, I always think it's nice to have a couple of emails before we start. Because so many people write and I think it's great to hear them. And we have an international audience, which is fantastic. Because our podcast is quite British-centric. Yes. But as I was reminded when we had Richard Osman the other day, or Ricky, as I now feel maybe we can call him, which was one of our most popular ever episodes. People really loved it, responded to Richard Osman.

7:19as he pointed out I think maybe not on the podcast but certainly chatting to me, his books are very English his Thursday, Thursday Merdigal. Oh very. I mean they're full of references to things like Woolworths and yet they are global bestsellers Yeah, but there's a big international audience for that kind of British So that very British thing So maybe I shouldn't, I sometimes think we're far too Anglo-centric here on Rosebud and maybe I should just relax a bit and let people around the world get our british vibe as well of course as our international vibe because we like to be global as well as local but we're not going to put on we're not going to start putting on an american twang say like some people say rory stewart does it's difficult in my recording my book my aml book and i've discussed this with Simon Russell Beale who when there is in the John le Carré there's a character who is Chinese a sinister Chinese character a baddie who is Chinese and Simon said when he began doing audiobooks 20-30 years ago he'd have done a caricature of a baddie Chinese and he said of course it's audio and you've got to make it clear to the audience who the characters are and what they are you can't remind there's not a film you can see the person what they look like so you know the character but audio you've got to remind them and he was saying you can't i can't now do a cod chinese accent wouldn't be acceptable so how do you with your british voice differentiate between being the narrator being you know the english spy which is george smiley or being this chinese person who's the same age that's quite tricky i always used to do the voices when i read books to my children.

9:09Me too. So I got into my A.A. Milne, a lot of American characters, American critics, things I'm quoting. A.A. Milne, big in America, Walt Disney comes up. Do you, are you allowed, would you say, a gentle American lilt if you're saying, the New York Times said, this is surely a great play, one of the greatest. But the London Times took this view and then you read an English accent. I love that. Is that acceptable? I love it. I had quite a discussion with my producer. her. She eventually conceded that it would be, since I was the author, I could tell the story in my own way. And I wasn't guying Americans.

9:46I was just reminding the listener that this is an American character speaking in a gentle way. Yeah, I like that. So, it's our first letter from America. I'm not going to read it in an American accent. In fact, I'd like you to read it. Should we read this? No, let's not read it. No, let's not. I'm not sure I can. I think I could do a line, but I think a whole email. I think so. It may also not be appropriate. Who is the email from? What's it about? It's from someone with a wonderful name. I think American people often have fabulous names. But that's by the by, as Giles would say. This first email, it's from someone called Barbara Van Zanten.

10:21Great name. From LA. Los Angeles. Which just seems so glamorous to me, to be called Barbara Van Zanten from Los Angeles. So hello, Barbara. Yeah. I hope you are glamorous. I'm sure you are. Hello, Giles and Harriet, she says in an American accent, but we're not going to do it. I've just listened to the episode of Giles's diary where you talk about childhood bereavement. Please, please do a programme about this. My mother died when I was two years old and my brother was four. And you're right. It has stayed with me for my whole life. It left a huge void, which I've spent the rest of my life trying to fill.

11:01It's one of the reasons I'm living in Los Angeles now. I'm 75 and the void has still not been filled. There was no grief counselling back in 1952 when she died, so we were left as little children with our wonderful father to cope with our loss. I was lucky enough to be raised by a very special dad who did everything right and did everything he could to be mother and father to us. Please explore this subject and help those of us who have suffered this kind of bereavement understand why we are like we are. Your podcast just keeps getting better and better. Regards, Barbara. That's very intriguing.

11:40It's nice, isn't it? Could we find someone who would help us with this to talk about this subject and the impact of bereavement on people and how it affects their lives? We have. I think we've got somebody coming up. Congratulations, Harriet. I look forward to that and that'll be in a few weeks time will it yes we're recording it in september so yeah not for a month or something september october you can hear about that because there's another letter from a name that rings a bell with me is this somebody i know possibly he's written he's emailed twice and he maybe does know you and i've i might have just forgotten what the connection is nick bish he lives in london west london yeah you read this one because i'm gonna be doing a lot of reading when we get around to the diaries um well this is from a man so you have to imagine a man reading this dear harriet and giles in brackets oh maybe he does know me um well i think this was addressed to me because it is about childhood bereavement and it was me that had spoken about that initially yeah um so it's another email about childhood bereavement and um apologies for anyone that wasn't bereaved as a child and i know most people weren't but um it is something that because we've discussed it we've had a few emails about this and giles and i also had just noticed how many of our guests had been affected by it.

12:54So this is obviously for everyone, this podcast, but we just thought this is an interesting angle. And because it affects me, Harriet, we've been slightly sort of taken by it for a while. But anyway, this is from Nick Bish, who says, I was intrigued and affected by your thoughts about childhood bereavement and not being ever able to shake it off, which is what I'd said a few episodes ago. It really does affect our growing up and indeed pricks away at your adult life. I'm now 76, just a few months younger than Giles, and I lost my father when I was 12. I was at boarding school in Sussex and I was summoned to the headmaster's sitting room after Friday's morning assembly.

13:36He told me, I'm very sorry, etc. But they really had no clue how to deal with me and sent me back to my dormitory to lie down. What were they thinking? My father had died in Paris on the Wednesday and my mother turned up at school on Saturday. I was given special dispensation to be out overnight as long as I was back by evening service on Sunday. My parents had been over on leave from Lagos, Nigeria, so we had no home in England. My mother and I stayed at the Mermaid in Rye. I have no recollection at all of how our conversation went. Circumstances changed, obviously. but two things have haunted me.

14:19I was told I was now the man of the family, I had no siblings, and so I started wearing my father's clothes, his waistcoat, his shoes, his ties, etc. And I was only told later that his funeral had been immediate. He'd been cremated in Paris, which accounted for my mother taking 72 hours to get to me, so I never attended his funeral. I had no evidence of his passing, just of his absence. when I told my wife all this not so long ago I burst into tears you're right it stays with you forever it's not melancholy it's just a thing I'm sharing it with you because you sparked the memory and I'm grateful best wishes and thank you for your considerable part in Rosebud Nick well my goodness thank you very much indeed Nick for sharing that and thank you all for sharing your, well, your experiences.

15:15This kid is a very interesting and significant subject. It is relevant to the podcast overall, not just being part of your story and being part of the story of people like Barbara and Nick. But also so many of our usually high-achieving guests have had childhood bereavement. Many have had loss of parent. I mean, you know, a parent disappearing, but actual bereavement. the death of either of their parents. So it's fascinating. We will return to this. And the mention there of The Mermaid in Rye, I shall be in The Mermaid in Rye in a few weeks' time, beginning of September. What a lovely place that is, a lovely hotel.

15:54Oh, Rye in Sussex. I go there because one of the societies I'm the president of is the Friends of Tilling. I love the novels of E.F. Benson, those Map and Lucia stories. And he ended up living in Rye, in the house that had once been the home of the great American novelist Henry James, and he then lived there. And we have an annual gathering. So if you're interested in Mab and Ujia, look up Friends of Tilling on the World Wide Web. People don't call it that any longer. Look up online. I think Lucia would, wouldn't she? Yes, exactly. The World Wide Web. Exactly. Anyway, go online. Mia Cara. What does she say?

16:33That is exactly... Funny Luciaism. Yes, absolutely. So, very interesting indeed. Shall we go into another episode now of the Diaries? Yes, I think we should. If people want to send us letters, and you do see them all, where do they send them? Well, yes, it is on email, really, I think. Although some people do write to us by post. Oh, yeah. But it's hello at rosebudpodcast.com. Yeah. Okay. What year are we? 1968. I'm 19 years of age at the beginning of the year. I've had my first term at Oxford University, where I'm full of eager ambition, wanting to be the editor of the magazine ISIS, wanting to be president of the Oxford Union, wanting to be producing plays for the Oxford Dramatic Society, and taking a shine to the wife of the then editor of ISIS.

17:30Not sure that that's a very good thing. But they were just students, weren't they? They were students, and it was very unusual in those days. Probably is more common, I don't know. Well, maybe not. You see, I'm still, I'm of the generation where you were still expected to marry a girl. Oh, I mean, I doubt any student is married now, or very, I never met. I mean, I think that would be very unusual. So, if you wanted to sleep with a person... You got married. The idea was you got married. Gosh. I mean, that really, that way, I mean, all that began to change in the 1960s with the advent of the pill.

18:03Yeah. but for people of my you know a little bit older than me my sister generation well you expected to marry a virgin bride it wasn't a sort of anything oh I expected to marry a virgin bride saying something remarkable that was the way it was that was just normal so these two people had got married after school or whatever they probably were teenage sweethearts and they were going to university and they thought we'd get married so they were able to live together And they lived together in their rooms at Oxford. I think they had a flat. I think they had a flat. But that was quite unusual even then, wasn't it?

18:41He may have been a postgraduate, I'm not sure. They were sort of 22 and 21, that sort of age. And I was, you know, 19. But that's the way it was. And so the idea of people sleeping with other people was really, that was we're on the cusp here of that sort of thing beginning to happen yeah people did climb into each other's colleges for late night frolics yeah but not necessarily sleeping with a person yeah okay I was introduced by I mentioned her before Fanny Craddock who was a television chef yeah and a great character and would have been when I was a teenager and met her she was in her 60s I suppose but she told me and my then girlfriend um now my wife about bundling do you do bundle i mentioned this before do you bundle yeah and basically bundling was a huge thing when they were young basically you you got into bed but you kept a blanket or a sheet in between you yeah uh and you could do almost everything you wanted yeah but you had to do it through the blanket or the sheet and she said oh it's huge fun it's quite i mean it it's amazing to me because I grew up after this era.

19:58I mean, it's quite monastic. I mean, it's hilarious that this was still going on. I mean, this is where my parents were young. It is hilarious. I mean, I write a bit about this. I did a biography of the late, great Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Philip. Yeah. He was born 1921. Oh, he would have done a lot of bundling. But that's the kind of bundling generation. Oh, the bundling generation. But also, people also did. And this, the bundling generation. Bundling generation. That's the title of your next book, Charles. It could be quite popular. It's a global bestseller. But there was also quite a bit of sharing a bed, but having a bolster down the middle of the bed.

20:35Oh. So to maintain a bit of discipline and decorum. Yeah, but the bolster would just get flung to one side, surely. Anyway, let's... No. And this is what young people, people of your generation, my children's and grandchildren's generation, you find quite hard to believe. because the world has so changed. But it was there. It really was there. Maybe there were some families where it wasn't there, were more bohemian than others. But among straightforward, I would say, working class, middle class families, actually, you had a girlfriend, boyfriend, but if you intended to sleep together, let alone live together, you would get married.

21:18You'd get married. So that's the world of 1968. But it is beginning to change. This is swinging Britain after all. And I think it's the end of the Christmas holidays. So it's the beginning of 1968. Monday, the 15th of January, 1968. All a bit testy at home. Ma is upset because her school has had to close. My mother ran a Montessori nursery school in our flat. The landlords aren't happy with the flat being used as a place of business. And the neighbours aren't too keen on a dozen toddlers plus pushchairs cluttering up the stairwell. Pa is worried about money, as ever I'm worried about Sal We had two hours at Paddington Station together before I took the 1.15pm to Oxford Sal was selling my girlfriend from school Went to New College then straight round to Walton Street to see the Adamson's We talked about my ISIS column Went out to tea at Fuller's, my favourite Went back to Walton Street to sup Returned to New College Unpacked, sorted i've just finished my first article so that's them that that's the couple that is the couple we're talking about we were speaking tuesday the 16th of january 1968 today i worked in a haphazard way i also had lots of cups of coffee post-luncheon with ultimate tedium david walter then julian radcliffe old etonian territorial army enthusiast tall thin sir andrew aguecheek to the life.

22:50Then Peter Torrey. Then, oh, the list goes on. Too much time here is spent around the coffee cup. I could tell you what happened to all these people, but it would take too long. Peter Torrey, I think, became eventually Sir Peter Torrey, you know, GCVO, KCMG, ambassador to Germany, to Spain, a great man in the, anyway, that's by the by. At 10.30 p.m., Pa arrived, exhausted bringing all my luggage i gave him coffee and then found that he'd been locked in the college gates are closed at 11 p.m after that you have to climb in or out i've climbed into a couple of times not my idea of fun pa at 57 was not inclined to climb out the wall where you climb out from here is really quite high eventually we found a very grumpy porter and pa was released to return to the St.

23:45Giles Hotel while I shall join him at breakfast. They maintain the old values at the St. Giles Hotel. Gentlemen are automatically given two eggs at breakfast. Women only get one. Brilliant. But this is a reminder of how the world has changed during my lifetime. No, I mean, I was just thinking that, in a nutshell, says everything that we were talking about earlier, about bundling and getting married and all this stuff. Two eggs for men, one for women. Friday the 19th of January 1968. Fruitless day at work. Nothing else. Oh dear. Saturday the 20th of January 1968. Try to work during morning. 2 to 5 p.m.

24:30Disastrous collection in economics. Feel inadequate and depressed. Contemplate changing subject. If I do, will I lose my scholar's gown? Tea with Andrew Ingram. handsome and david graham nice cheered a bit 7 30 pm picked up by car for the maxwell party at headington hill hall the maxwell family pile this was robert maxwell famous financier went with peter and leslie and the isis crowd held leslie's hand in the car the party was beautifully done drinks, dinner, dancing. I danced with Leslie. The house is huge, Victorian, pillared, very palatial, but a touch gaudy in the decoration. Shelves of false books, etc.

25:19I met our host, Robert Maxwell, MC, MP and chairman of Pergamon Press. He put his arm around my shoulder in a jovial and slightly menacing way. I told him that I was honoured to be visiting Heddington Hill Hall, especially because Oscar Wilde had come to a ball at the house when he was at Oxford. Oscar came dressed as Prince Rupert of the Rhine. And who have you come dressed as, young man? He growled. The house used to be owned by the Morell family. Now it belongs to Oxford City Council. It's the best council house in the land, according to Mr M. Coffee at the Adamson's afterwards. Can't take my mind off Leslie.

26:02Giles. Sorry. I've just got a couple of questions. So, Maxwell, Robert Maxwell, how much older than you is he? Rob Maxwell is in his 50s or maybe 60. He is the father. He was a huge newspaper magnate, eventually owning a Daily Mirror and a publisher. He had eight or maybe even nine children. I know one of them died. And the two eldest of his children were contemporaries of mine at Oxford. Right. One was involved in the magazine Isis, was the finance person on it. And I think Robert Maxwell subsidized the magazine. Another was his daughter Anne, both really nice people. And so he gave a ball every year.

26:49I think he may have given two balls. One night it was for all his business friends. And the next night I think it was for family and younger people, all his children's friends. So this was a ball given at Headington Hill Hall, which was a huge house on the outskirts of Oxford on Headington Hill. So he was this rather gigantic and frightening figure. He was also a local MP. He was nothing if not ambitious, a Labour MP. And so these children of his are the siblings of the really infamous Maxwell. Oh, you're right. To bring the story up to date, you're absolutely right. So that's why I'm asking about the Maxwells, obviously.

27:27Oh, Ghislaine. Oh, I'd forgotten all that. Ghislaine was one of the youngest children and was a little girl, tiny little girl at this time. And I mean, I saw her, but I didn't know her. And she, people used to say later, because I knew the family for a number of years and went to subsequent parties at the house, that she, Ghislaine, was very much Daddy's favourite. Ghislaine of course who was the friend and indeed girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein who was imprisoned for nefarious activities then took his own life I think I'm right in saying and Ghislaine is now in prison because of in quotes sex trafficking that sort of thing and yeah yes so this is that family so I knew that family we're talking 50 years ago.

28:20I mean, you are, you really are Forrest Gump. Sometimes I think of you as a real life Forrest Gump. You've just been everywhere. I've always, in a way, funnily enough, when you were talking earlier about the parties, I was thinking, this week, I've been to several parties. I've been to magazine parties, I mean, to sort of media parties. And I've been I went last night to somebody's 70th birthday party, a very distinguished man in the world of publishing. But I partly went because he's a friend and I was delighted to be asked. But I also went knowing there would be interesting people there. Yeah.

28:53And they were. You know, I met a Nobel laureate. I met several people who'd been on, Sir Ben Oakry was there. Oh, great. But I thought, yes, one of the reasons I go to these things is partly because I'm asked, it's lovely, but also because I keep a diary. And I do like collecting people. Yeah. And I do like feeling I'm near where things are happening. And you are. And I am. And I am. Oh, earlier this week, oh, forgive me, the big excitement of what, let's get on with that earlier, the big excitement of my week, my wife and I went to the House of Commons and we sat in the gallery watching our daughter in a debate.

29:31Great. Which she had initiated. Brilliant. Watching her speaking for 20 minutes. I mean, it was both proud-making, moving, and she was brilliant. The subject's incredible. What was interesting is the subject was potholes. oh wow this is the big subject giles but it was so interesting the she was quoting various constituency problems and there were crowded other mps from the world this is the big thing but it is the big thing so much money is is being spent on the roads and yet why can't we get our potholes dealt with and she was very interesting about having coming up with solutions to it that weren't going to cost more money but the point is it was quite exciting because there i was in the House of Commons and there were people there, you know, there was the Prime Minister drifting by, I thought we've had him, on Rosebud and then there was Rachel Reeves, I thought I'm going to call after her because I'm determined to get her on Rosebud.

30:19You've got my disease, it is a disease and it's the disease where every single person you see hear about, you think could they come on Rosebud and it drives my partner Leon mad because every time you mention someone I'll say, could you ask them if they'll come on Rosebud and he'll go no I can't it is absolutely it's a disease it is a disease it's a pathology i was with tiny tamar this morning tiny temper forgive me that's why you didn't say yes i'm with tiny i was with tiny temper this morning yeah and i thought should i shouldn't i ask him should i shouldn't ask him i mean literally i think of nothing else yeah brilliant but right now we're thinking about because it's tuesday sorry little detour everyone we'll get back to it we'd got back to me going after the party at the Maxwells, to have coffee with the Adamson's and admitting in my diary, in brackets, it must be said, can't take my mind off Leslie.

31:15And you've already been holding her hand in the car. Yep. She didn't take her hand away. No.

31:30Thursday, the 25th of January, 1968. Tea at Union with Geraldine Jones and her parents G.J. very upset because Jeremy Thorpe ratted on her at the last minute and phoned to say he couldn't turn up for tonight's debate Her first, lots of tears Geraldine Jones was the first female president of the Oxford Union in the 200 years history of the debating society So a very big thing for her jeremy thorpe of course was then an mp for north devon um he was the leader of the liberal party at that time later of course he was put on trial for you know all sorts of things so bad luck for her the debate on the abandonment of britain's military presence east of suez was tedious julian radcliffe spoke and was laughed at mercilessly monday the 5th of february 1968 lunch with philip maxwell nice man serious man he is concerned about the flippancy of isis 2 30 p.m visit to hm prison oxford tour and talk with mr dermot grubb the governor we are sharing a platform at the crime society meeting on saturday alongside rk leslie governor of spring hill open prison grendon p.m write isis column write swiss feature take them to 142 walton street that's where the adamson's lived write prison editorial write notes for peace for oxford tory this is obviously another magazine for conservatives 2 30 a.m late night visit from Peter Adamson and Mike Palmer, apprehended by Chaplin, not amused.

33:17So they came to have a late night powwow about the magazine. And the Chaplin, I was on his staircase, clearly was not amused. So were they getting in and out over the wall? Yeah. Oh, golly. That was happening a lot. A lot, you know, because life goes on. Of course. Two thirty in the morning. We've still got a magazine to publish. I mean, just as a quick aside. you express a level of sort of mystification about why you're not doing better at your economics you know, oh the collection didn't go well and I'm struggling. I mean, Charles I've done about three hours work this term. That is the problem but I'm doing all my things my projects.

33:57Of course, Giles but economics is a complicated subject as I discovered yeah. Tuesday the 6th of February 1968 piece and pick in sun newspaper based on the interview i did two weeks ago gosh it's a whole page the headline the tomorrow people oh jill geight visited two widely differing universities oxford and newcastle upon time and this is the result i get the top photograph and a quote from me as the headline i'd like to be a sort of danny kay and then home secretary the interview is slightly embarrassing but there we are under the stuff about me is a picture of mike rosen that's michael rosen yeah yeah i mean who's been on rosebud 21 playwright and a piece about him and diana quick of course diana quick actress first female president of the oxford university Dramatic Society, of course, still remembered by many years, Julia Flight, in that wonderful TV adaptation of Brideshead Revisited.

35:06And it says here from the newspaper, generally talked about as the best actress at Oxford for years. I think, Michael Rosen, and you reminisce about this in the episode, about this particular article in which you three are featured. But isn't this extraordinary? So here I am, 19, and one of the Tomorrow People. How exciting. All day. Did they mention that you haven't done any work since you started? But look what it says here. All day, work, lecture, tutorials, off and on. Well done. See Chaplin and Dean about Peter and Mike's visit last night. Severe rap over knuckles. Talk with Kevin Packnum about doing an article about alcoholism for his magazine, Cover.

35:50Friday the 16th of February 1968. Last night was good. I died at the union as friend of the president. Good debate on censorship. I didn't speak, but somehow got referred to, pleasantly by Viscount Lewisham, disparagingly by Jonathan Sumption. The guests were Bridget Brophy, tough and good, we got on well, and Kathleen Rain, poetess, a sort of milder version of Rachel Field from school. We talked at some length, and she gave me two quotes to treasure. He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars. William Blake The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.

36:36W.B. Yeats Tonight, not so good. Terrible, in fact. Pete and Leslie called to work on the television play that Pete and I are writing together. And it all got out of hand. Pete was in a silly mood. Went back with them to Walton Street. was rude to Alistair Liddell. Oh dear. Saturday the 17th of February 1968. Noon. Leslie comes over. Talk. Hold hands. Go shopping. PM. Party at Pete and Leslie's. Quite pleasant. Try to be nice to Alistair and avoid Les. Too ostentatiously. Kiss her on leaving. Donald Wolfert dies Sunday the 18th of February 1968 Just catch 8.30am train to London Go to 5H Pleasant morning with parents and Polly who is delightful An ex-convict called Norman is there doing paintwork Meet Sal 2pm Waterloo Go to Festival Hall for tea Mutual recognition that love was dead Agree to part after two years, six months and thirteen days Feel curiously numb, empty, middle-aged She was obviously, almost hurtfully, relieved At least it died a natural death She had nothing to say, but wanted to return the ring, mellowed dramatically Felt remote, so not unhappy to say goodbye to be free after all this while will be strange sup at 5h with family hess in everyone talks loudly and at once hess full of horrors at springfield hospital the psychiatric hospital where she is now a nurse they like to have staff who have been patients exclamation mark i put in brackets she is v funny about it all dropping the tray of false teeth and having to work out by trial and error which teeth belong in which mouth smoking in the laundry cupboard and setting the towels alight giving the tranquilizer injections to the patient who needed the antidepressant and vice versa it really is carry on at the loony bin 10 p.m train to oxford wait jiles i feel we must break off to talk about the break up with sal This is a big moment a lot of listeners have been waiting for.

39:11Funnily enough, it was a big moment for me reading that. Bearing in mind, I've not re-read this material. And as you may have noticed, the tears were pricking in my eyes. And in fact, I'm not going to talk about the ring. I think it may be, if we ever look in those memoirs boxes next door, because we're recording this in the basement today of my house, if we ever look in those memoirs boxes, we may find it. It had a Markazit stone in it. So you've still got it? Oh, I certainly wouldn't have thrown it away. Oh, golly. And she gave it back. Yes. Yes. So I imagine she also got rid of all my letters.

39:50I've kept all of hers. And I don't recall, we shall see in the diaries, I don't recall whether this was our final encounter. Yeah. Whether we... She had become different. She definitely had become different. We hung on through that gap year when I was in America for six months. And we wrote lovingly, sexually every week to one another. And then we came back and it was wonderful. And then I went to university. And she was now older. And I was older. You know, things were moving on. But two years is a long time of your life. Anyway. So what strikes me is that I can sort of relate to the way you describe that numbness and the fact that you felt remote.

40:38You know, I can remember that feeling and I can remember breakups like that. So essentially she'd already left the building, as it were. She had left the building. And why do you think that was? I mean, you say you're just grown up. Do you think that's all it was or do you think she'd met someone else or what do you think? I think she had met somebody else. Now you remind me. I wonder if that'll come up. Her thing was music. Oh, yes. You mentioned that. And I think she met a boy at school or maybe it was somebody a little bit older who was a conductor. There were two of them. And I may be conflating the two.

41:23What I do, I mean, I really have not thought about this. I'm now thinking of his name and I won't mention it because I've got the wrong person. I thought, I can't believe this. He's ugly. He's ugly. I think he plays the viola, the viola. Neither a violin nor a cello. So he falls between every stool. I couldn't quite believe it. But he was a conductor though. That's power. No, there was another one that was a conductor. I think there was first this first boy and then there was this conductor who I won't name because he actually became, Now I'm remembering it all. He became quite a famous conductor.

41:58Okay. But he would have been in his early 20s then. Yeah. She was about 17. But music was her thing. And also, I think too, now we're talking about it, that she had read a book that made her think she should have sexual freedom. Oh. I seem to remember this. There was quite a sort of, because I think she'd sent it to me and asked what I thought about it. and I didn't like the idea of it. I was, I thought, hmm.

42:34So we were diverging. Yeah. What is interesting about this is, as you know, from my teenage years when I was at school, and if ever we look at the letters you'll see that, I was accustomed to being ditched or dropped or somebody not showing an interest. and what this appears to be is that we were almost both of us we knew we'd reached the end of the road yeah but it's never nice to be rejected no um oh it's horrible when you break up with someone even if you even if you you are ready for it it's still an awful awful feeling yeah um and what you say about feeling middle-aged i think that really sums it up it makes you feel old and mortal doesn't it it's horrible and also you feel a failure yeah you know um i wanted to think that i was a glorious love object you know beautiful young you were for leslie a married woman but there you are you see i mean obviously i didn't tell sal about that but clearly i was to an extent too timing with somebody else i think it's almost impossible we'll get back to the diaries now guys sorry but i'm just my final thing well also people when thinking about this i mean one of the points of reading these diaries is to trigger in the listeners memory yeah of course this is about memories yeah moments like this and so if you have if you're listening to this and what we're saying resonates with you or you had a different experience of a late teenage breakup after a couple of years maybe share share it with us we'd be fascinated wouldn't we yeah And what I was going to say was, I think it's almost impossible to keep a relationship going through university.

44:19Some people do manage it, but most people break up. Well, wait to see what happens next. But you mean, you know, with a previous, with, as it were, a school, with your old part, the one you met at school. Because you're very difficult. And also the change of gear that comes with going away to university. Yeah, you do masses of growing up. It's extraordinary. And you meet a huge number of people. And it's very hard to keep that going. So don't beat yourself up about it, Giles. No. But I think I'm now feeling rather pleased that she went off with somebody. If she did, I don't know that she did. But I think, certainly he was the interest who became quite a noted conductor.

45:00I'm glad it wasn't some Tom Dick or Harry. I feel this is fine. So Sal and Sir Simon Rattle got it together, did they? Shh, shh, shh. It's not. No, it isn't. You can say that safely. I'll look him up in a minute. Of course you will, child. I mean, I meant on Google. I know, of course you will. I didn't mean I'd give him a call. I'm amazed you don't look him up. I'm always looking up. How are you? Exes, exes. Oh, yeah, that's the whole point of the internet, as far as I'm concerned. That's why they invented it. Oh, my God. Anyway, it's interesting that the number of these people that I met have went on to do interesting things.

45:33Okay, back to the diary. Sunday, the 2nd of March, 1968. 142 Walton Street at 11.30am. That's the flat of the Adamson's and the ISIS office. BBC film unit from Panorama, including Robin Day, came to talk to a quartet of us from ISIS about Roy Jenkins for a pre-budget programme. He was the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We were filmed outside the Radcliffe camera. Fairly successful. Lunch at Randolph Hotel as guests of BBC. Robin Day, aggressive throughout, and conceited in a defensive way. That said, he was very pleasant to me. I seemed to amuse him. I think he thought I was like he was when he was here.

46:18Hmm, interesting. Tea with Leslie. Difficult. Must come to terms with inevitable situation. She is married to someone else and he is my friend. Quiet evening. Pete and Leslie called round just before 11. Rather nice.

46:44Friday the 8th of March 1968. Ember Day. Seems appropriate. My 20th birthday. Alas. I've liked being a teenager. Very much. I'm not sure about being 20. Last night I went to the presidential debate. Tony Bird was so much better firmer and funnier than William Waldergrave but Waldergrave won Geraldine asked me to speak in her farewell debate it's going to be televised I met up with Leslie at 8.30am she came in for coffee before going to school she was a school teacher she missed her car lift on purpose she gave me a present

47:31the eyes are pricking with tears she gave me a present a beautifully wrapped book about Laurence Olivier and his Shakespeare films brackets I love her close brackets even more alarmingly as an aside Harriet I will before you leave today go upstairs and bring you the book which I keep on my bedside and I had no idea until just now that that's where it came from. No. I've had it all these years. It's one of my favourite books. What? And you'd forgotten? I didn't realise she gave it to me. I've always had it. I've always had it. It's been one of my favourite objects. My goodness, Giles. There's no dedication in it then, obviously.

48:18I don't know. I don't think so. Well, she probably didn't want to put one because it was an illicit affair. The plot thickens. Giles you're laughing about all this I'm not laughing this is real for me no no I'm not I'm not laughing I may be an old man now no I'm not but the thing about this is you're still in your head the person you were I know but did her husband suspect anything wait wait wait oh gosh Giles Leslie in at 4.15pm tea then out shopping for party on to 142 Pete in strange temper Party from 8.30 onwards Some nice people, my friends Spent almost whole time with Leslie After party 12.30 to 1.30 Alone with Leslie Thursday the 14th of March 1968 AM French prelim Not bad PM economics prelim Simple stuff But badly done by me I fear 6.45pm To Union Sherry, dinner sat next to amusing, bald English tutor and novelist, Rachel Trickett.

49:30At 9pm, spoke first in the televised debate. Vive la différence! They all laughed. The guests were Miriam Carlin, actress, funny and nice. Clement Freud, grandson of Sigmund, very funny, very dry, dared to tell his stories very slowly, wonderful control of his material. and Frank Muir, scriptwriter, completely delightful, not as funny as Freud, but because he was friendlier, he twinkled, the audience liked him more. Max Beloff likened my contribution to those of Philip Gedala and Effie Smith, which was gratifying. These two people you've never heard of, Philip Gedala and Effie Smith, they were former union presidents and they were noted for their auditory.

50:19so that was a compliment pleasant drinks afterwards much congratulations but I felt somewhat empty Friday the 15th of March 1968 George Brown resigns as foreign secretary parents 31st wedding anniversary history prelim not bad see Dr Thomas model tutor to discuss changing my subject evening call in at Walton Street Pete and Leslie out Lots of nice notes about last night's speech From Geraldine From Rachel Trickett Best speech of the night From Edwina That's somebody called Edwina Cohen then Later Edwina Curry Reporting lovely reaction from her parents, etc Typewriter My one possible buyer for this machine has fallen through So I'm going to hold on to it a while longer Perhaps get it overhauled in the holiday Term ends tomorrow I'm glad Friday 29th March 1968 11.30pm last night by election result Tories sweep in Today hear of pass at prelims Pleasant relief will make it easier to change subject without losing scholars gown Go to Victoria Fix tickets for Paris Visit Peter Harris at Hospital for Tropical Diseases near Mornington Crescent Easy conversation Meet Sal at Waterloo disappointed brackets relieved question mark to find her unattractive pleasant enough lunch at royal festival hall but not much to say once she was everything now there's nothing will the day come when at least I remember something I hope so or is this what comes of love NB the world will be spared any poetry from me on this theme On to Piccadilly Get francs at bank Sit for a while in Green Park Return home Achieve nothing concrete today Feel poorly Monday the 1st of April 1968 Meet two cankered rosebuds on train to Paris Real innocents abroad Once arrived, coffee with them Take them to Alliance Francaise Find them hotel in Rue Rousselet Lunch at self-service, Vanot Call at Administration Penitentiaire, Ministry of Justice See, same man as two years ago Distressed at own jerky French Get literature and promise of attempt to arrange the prison visits I'm wanting On to Comédie Française to book tickets for Thursday Read of Lyndon Johnson's decision not to run for US presidency again in November And of his moves to secure some sort of peace in Vietnam LBJ not standing is a major surprise and leaves the Democrat spot open for Robert Kennedy.

53:15Dose in les tuideries. Then decide to get to grips with correspondence. Lovely letter from Susie Blaustein, now 16 but not liking it. I feel so old. She wrote to LBJ and got a reply within six days. I wrote to Samuel Beckett and he sent me a lovely handwritten reply. He won't be interviewed. I don't know any of the answers and I'm not interested but he'll meet me it will be grand to see you in Paris if you don't mind not interviewing me amazing isn't it amazing we could have had him on Rosebud I know, I knew he would have said no, Charles yes, of course he would I don't know any of the answers and I'm not interested Thursday the 4th of April 1968 2.30pm, Comédie Française excellent seat L 'étourdie, highly stylized and amusing.

54:12Le Médecin Malgré Lui, delightful set, production predictable and safe. 6 p.m., Champs-Elysées, Vie Privée with Brigitte Bardot. She's still gorgeous, gorgeous, but the film is awful. I came out and heard the news. Martin Luther King has been assassinated, gunned down in Tennessee. I walked back along the banks of the Seine. Everybody was quiet. Everyone here feels affected by this. Saturday the 6th of April 1968. It's gone midnight. I'm on the boat going home. It is very cold. I've been reading Voltaire, one of the two books I bought yesterday on my walk along the Boulevard Saint-Michel before seeing Tom Jones in the tiny cinema near La Madeleine.

55:01The film was great fun. I needed cheering up. I could do with cheering up now. It is so cold and I'm hungry. I had supper at the Wimpy at Gaudinor about five hours ago. I bought the English papers to read about Martin Luther King. He was only 39. He was shot on a hotel balcony in Memphis, apparently by a well-dressed white man who fled in a car. The Reverend Jesse Jackson was standing with him when a single shot was fired from an automatic rifle. He said King's last words were, sing Precious Lord tonight and sing it well. President Johnson has asked every citizen to reject the blind violence that has taken Dr King but rioting is already breaking out all over the US.

55:53Sunday the 14th of April 1968 Easter Day I don't go to church anymore. Hey ho. Aimless days these postponing things till late evening and then being too weary to complete them. Getting about one thing done a day. Letter published in the Sunday Times today on prisons. Sent off a letter to the Times on the Chicago execution of teenagers. I hope not too melodramatic. Planning a jolly week of cheer-me-up entertainment to include Flubber at the Arnick Cinema, Golders Green tomorrow, Mrs Wilson's Diary with John Wells at the Criterion on Tuesday, supposed to be very funny, Around the World in 80 Days Again It Never Fails and Cabaret at the Palace on Saturday with Judi Dench Ma is in hospital having her appendix out Have I already reported this?

56:48Shall we stop there for today? Yes, that was brilliant Well, I don't know It was rather elegiac or melancholy or there's a different mood going on Well, I think I was a little bit depressed wasn't I? You've seen it Well, breaking up with Sal and then... I mean, obviously I knew it was wrong. Yeah, oh, in the affair. Fancying Leslie. And I was mixed up about my work. Yeah. Wanting to change subject. Yeah, feeling a bit down, which we don't expect from me, do we? Well, I was just going to say, it's not like you, but you really feel it in the diary. You know, a young person going to sleep during the day in the Tuileries Gardens, that smacks of being low, a bit depressed.

57:37But I'm pleased with myself that I'm planning a jolly week of cheer-up entertainment, that I've thought it through. You've got to do something about it. So do you get depressed? I mean, what do you do when you get depressed and do you get depressed? Well, you will remember from the diaries, Mr. Stocks. Busy people are happy people. Exactly. So I've rarely given my time to get depressed by being busy all the time. You may also say I've therefore rarely given myself the opportunity to think about anything because I've been so busy. As my wife would say, busy fool. I like to think busy bee. Yeah.

58:19But is it an avoid, you know, are you avoiding? Well, I don't know. We will come. We haven't yet come to when I go to Moscow. And I do remember, I often think about that, being depressed in Moscow and spending a morning in a Moscow hotel room lying in bed. Oh, that does sound depressing, if I may say so. I've never been to Moscow. But I'm somebody who gets up and gets on with the day. Yeah. I do not. I'm not a slugger better at all. So do you get depressed? I think I get irritable rather than depressed. Oh, this explains a lot. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I am someone that avoids by being busy, which is why I was asking if you do.

59:12I think I'm always doing something. and that probably is a slight way of avoiding things. And yes, I can get tetchy. I get tired and I can be irritable. I think Leon would say I can get irritable sometimes and you've probably seen that side of me sometimes. Oh, surely not. But yeah, no, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm really a depressive person. And also, I mean, I come from a family where there was real depression. I think my father and my mother and my sister Hester, as you know, was treated for various mental health problems. So I was aware of it. Yeah, and you know my mum was depressed. Yeah, of course.

59:56And I think that does have a... If you grew up around that, I think I made a conscious decision that I wasn't going to do that. But I think that's a whole different ballgame. I assume it's a whole different ballgame to the kind of lowness or blues or anxiety. Absolutely. This is just teenage angst, isn't it? I mean, I had that, and I still have those days. Exactly. Anyway. But it's really sad, the Martin Luther King. You know, it's all part of the mood, but it's very sad. Oh, yeah. Good. Well, look, I'm sorry if we've left you listeners on a low. We're doing some dowries next week or the week after?

1:00:36How do we do it? We usually do it every other, but I think we're going to... Sometimes we do them consecutive weeks. I think we're going to do another. So check in every Tuesday, because sometimes we surprise you. Like last week we gave you Chris Patton, didn't we? Lord Patton of Barnes, which was an interesting mix. So we never know quite what's going to happen on Tuesday, but the diaries are pretty regular. So if you like the diaries, stick with them, actually. And I'm still keeping mine. So you will appear one day. Oh, Rosebud. It'll be just Rosebud, Rosebud, Rosebud, won't it? It will be. It'll be Rosebud, Rosebud, Rosebud, but Harriet, Harriet, Harriet.

1:01:10Oh, gosh, I don't want to read those bits. But who will be producing then? If you're still producing, then you can edit yourself out. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, because she has that. I don't, I have to explain this to the listeners. Harriet very much is the producer and editor. She takes the material away. And, oh, there was something I wanted to argue about. You didn't include a story. But we'll tell, maybe next week we'll talk about that. Oh, dear, sorry. Maybe we'll talk about that. Okay. Because you said it was the quality of the sound. And I think it was, we weren't sure about the story. But anyway.

1:01:39Oh, the Piers Morgan? Yes. Oh, no, no, no. It was the sound. But I'll play it to you. It was really, really hard to listen to it. Oh, good. Unfortunately, because it's a great story. Good. Okay, everybody. That's it. Is that it for more Rosebud for today? It is, I think. That's your lot from Harriet Jane and from me, Giles Brandreth, and from 1968. What happens next to the 20-year-old Giles and the married Leslie we shall discover perhaps in the next episode? I hope there's a happy ending. Yeah. Cue the music. Oh, yes. Cue the music. It's Tuesday music, which is always a bit more doleful.

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1:03:05That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, Production by Harriet Jane And in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth Thank you for listening