Gyles's diary, episode 23

0:21Hello everybody, welcome to More Rosebud. Hello Harriet. You should be in good form because the A-level results came in the other day. and I think they were satisfactory from your family's point of view? Yes, it wasn't me taking my A-levels, although I am obviously very young. It was my daughter. You've been taking A-levels at any age, of course. You could have been a mature student deciding at last to do Sanskrit A-level. I did try and do an Italian A-level as an adult and I gave up after about six weeks. It got so complicated when they started doing the subjunctive or something. My wife, Michelle, did a late degree.

0:58She had a degree already in history. She thought she'd do one in English. And she did, you know, in 2000. And found the whole language of academia had so changed. Oh, absolutely. The way they talked about the discourse and everything. It was really, she had to relearn the vocabulary in order to take part in the course. But need to say, she got a degree. Oh, did she? Brilliant. Yes, so she's got two degrees. And we now, we have seven grandchildren and only one granddaughter. And I'm pleased to say our granddaughter got the results she hoped for. So she's going to go off and become a doctor. Congratulations.

1:33Takes six years. What is your daughter going to go off and do? Sylvie. Hi, Sylvie. We're super proud because she has got into Oxford to do classical archaeology and ancient history. Oh, Lord. I know. Well, then she'll be interested in my daddy's ancient history. But also, would she be interested, does she listen to the diary episodes? Will the Oxford of 2025, 6 be in any way like it was for me in 67, 68, 69, do you think? I don't think it will have changed as much as some other places will have changed. Because you, who are at Oxford in between the two of us, me and your daughter Sylvie, do you recognise quite a bit of what I write about in the late 60s?

2:22yeah I mean all those institutions were still there the union the Oxford University Dramatic Society all the places are the same and I recognize the idea of balls and parties and sort of sets of people that you got to know the drama people the union people and the teachers the academics academics yeah so I think it was similar I mean I think you had a particularly kind of go-getting time not everybody has that sort of time when they're there some people spend almost the whole time in their college and their friends will all be from their college and it'll be much more sort of cosy their experience whereas I think you knew lots of people from all different colleges and were kind of moving in a slightly sort of different echelon.

3:07I was kind of in between I'd say. I knew people who didn't move from their room never mind their college. Well when I got to the end of my degree and looked back at the matriculation photograph so when you start they take a big picture of all of you in your year half the people in it I'd never seen and I think they were people who possibly didn't really come out of their rooms or they were doing something so different to me because I did English maybe they were medics or scientists and they were in a completely different part of town in the labs I'd never seen them and I couldn't work out where they'd been because I'd been out and about quite a lot doing things in college and in the bar and You know, I knew people.

3:48But yeah, so people do have different times, don't they? Have you heard of somebody called C.P. Snow? Yes. Charles Snow became Lord Snow. And what did he posit in the 1950s? The two cultures. Oh, yes, the two cultures. He's that person. And he's that person. And he, I think, felt that the problem with British society was that it fell into two cultures. There were the arts people, you know, the English historians and all of that. And there were the scientists. And until we bring them together, there's no hope. but I found certainly in my day the two cultures still persisted and you're telling me in your day too they did because as a matter of fact you didn't see the medics you didn't go to the science library I knew people who were doing psychology that's not a science but yes the other science people maybe not so much but I think it's got a lot better that because I think when you were at school if you were an arts person you didn't do any science you'd come out knowing nothing now children come out knowing really a lot about science and maths, even if they're more...

4:47Amazing. My grandchildren are all doing science subjects, maths. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't know where to begin. No, my other daughter, Belle, that's what she's interested in. And I think they really teach those much more than... Well, that's how we discovered the other day, didn't we? That English isn't even in the top 10 subjects. No, no one wants to do it now. No, they're all doing these things called STEM, which is what? Science, technology, engineering, mathematics. Yeah. I would have been lost. You'd have been hopeless, John. I would have been hopeless. I cried in my maths GCSE. I mean, I wept.

5:20It was like an episode of a rosebud for you. It was so difficult. You actually cried in the exam. My brain was hurting so much. I wept in the exam. I've never cried in an exam before or since, but maths did that to me. Did you let your tears hit the exam paper? Yes, and wash out all my bad adding up. No, you should have put a note in the margin. Tears from the candidate. it nowadays i'd have got half an hour extra you certainly would oh should have done that now look um what we had an interesting letter didn't wait no we've got some news the news about amelia stay so the reason one of the reasons we wanted to talk about the a-level results oh not just to boast about our children not just to boast about sylvie and your granddaughter whose name is isolda wow what name that's good but was also to mention amelia stay who listeners will remember wrote to us last time we read a lovely letter from her all about the fact that she was waiting for her results to go to oxford to read music and the lovely thing about her nan moving and i predicted she wrote such a brilliant letter that her name would be one that would resonate in years to come yeah well it's resonating in episodes to come because we're saying it again because amelia amazingly also got her a-levels and she's going to oxford to read music Yay!

6:39Woo-hoo! Well done, Amelia. Well, I hope some people listening are also going to the University of Chester, which I am the Emeritus Chancellor. Yes. And the great thing, you mean, you know, a lot of people got their first choice and second choice. Many people didn't, is I think the clearing can send you to somewhere surprising. I always was amused by people who were sort of fixated on a particular course or a particular place. The truth is mostly you don't know where you're going. No, that's true. So whatever the experience is, seize it. Yeah. Well, you always said, I think, it's not about which degree you do.

7:10It's about what else you do. I really believe that. I really believe that. And keep a diary. And as we know, you hardly did any of your actual degrees. But Richard Branson, who features in the diary, and I hope will be featuring on Rosebud in due course, he didn't go to university at all. Nor, as Jeremy Clarkson likes to remind us every year, did he? I think there's a lot to be said for not going. and one of our grandchildren Rory who does the Donald Trump impressions for us oh check our Instagram they're on there and he's doing other impressions now too giving other characters for you yeah Jennifer Coolidge he didn't go to university we're hoping to pick up Jennifer Coolidge as a Rosebud guest by the way oh that would be good I'm in touch that would be really good so congratulations to Amelia from all of us here at Rosebud congratulations to Sylvie and to Isolde to Isolde and we'd love to hear actually seriously from any students who are starting out university if it's university of choice or if it's university you didn't expect to go to keep a diary let us know and we're going to have i hope in due course some of harriet's university diaries oh yeah to complement mine and maybe some from our listeners yes yeah well i i did email amelia and said keep a diary and let us know when we can read it out now here is an interesting email which I'm going to ask you to read Harriet because I shall be reading from the diaries in a moment even though it's from a bloke I would like you to read it because it really surprised me and I'm interested though this person knows me and has my email yeah he chose to write to you well it's a rosebud related email and amazingly enough it's from if you've been listening closely to the diaries you'll have noticed Giles has a niece who he often talks about he often babysits for she's a baby at this point in when um we're where we've got to at the moment and she's called polly and i always noticed that giles is very fond of polly and the baby polly and spends a lot of time with her so anyway this email came in yesterday from dean baker who is polly's husband and he lives they live in australia and he writes hello harriet i am dean Baker, married to Giles' niece Polly, his late sister Hester's daughter.

9:29We live in Canberra in Australia. We're obviously big fans of Rosebud, but even more so of more Rosebud. In the most recent episode we listened to, you read a letter from someone called Tony Beck from Melba, which is a suburb of Canberra, not far from where we live. Tony was recounting the coincidence of listening to Giles' diary and then coming across the reference to Brandreth pills in Moby Dick. What he doesn't know is that he lives less than a 20-minute drive from Polly, who is obviously also a descendant of The Pill Man, as Giles calls Dr. Benjamin Brandreth, and that Polly's good friend Barbara, also a Canberra resident, is a descendant of Herman Melville, the author of Moby Dick.

10:15Good grief. Amazing. That is extraordinary. So my great, great great great grandfather created these brand with pills herman melville distinguished american author writes moby dick in which they feature and now 150 years later we find living cheek by jowl the descendants of the pill man and the moby dick man amazing in australia on the other side of the world on the other side of the world we must are we going to bring them together are we going to have a sort of um a rosebud special down under i think we should i mean at At least we should see a photo, shouldn't we? And hear what happens when they get together.

10:52Also, I want to know a little bit more about Herman Melville and Moby Dick. It's such a famous novel. Have you read it? No, I haven't. It's very long. I've got a copy. I've never read it. Apart from the pages about Brandreth's pills. Yeah. And I assume he wrote lots of novels. I mean, he's one of the American giants, isn't he? Yeah, he is. So I want to know more about him. Well, that's extraordinary. I hope they take a Brandreth's pill when they meet up. Do you think Polly's got a packet? You've seen the packets we've got here. I don't think I have. Oh, in the downstairs loo. Oh, in the downstairs loo.

11:22I think I have them. And have you seen on the mantelpiece behind me? Yeah. Oh, there's a bottle. There's a bottle. What is that? Is it hair? It's the George R. Sims hair restorer. Oh, the hair restorer. Another of my relatives invented a hair restoration liquid. Unfortunately, he went bald using it. But it was a good idea. Good idea. George R. Sims. And we got it. Amazing. Yeah. Wow. But it really is. You can look at me. It doesn't work. So do you think Polly's got any of the pills? She might have some of the pills. They are still available, sort of, and a few years out of date, but we can try the pills, have a pill party.

11:57Wow. Why not? Crumbs. Sounds dangerous. Okay. Have we got to the diary now? Yes. So, yeah, Dean and Polly and Tony Beck, if you get together, definitely send us a photo, a video. We'll put it on the Instagram and we'll chat about it and we'd love to know what happens. Do you take the pills or do you just have tea? Which might be more sensible, actually. Yeah, it might be. Right, so Giles, we're going to start on the next section of diaries. And the year we're in is 1968. It was still, you know, this is the fourth episode of 1968. It's going to take us years to get through these diaries at this rate, isn't it?

12:35It's such a big year. So much happened. It was a big year. That's worth you thinking about if you go to university. This is, for me, this was a change of gear. It's the beginning of... Don't you think? Wasn't it for you? It really was, yeah. But 1968 is also just a big year anyway, isn't it? It's a big year globally. There are this sort of student revolution is going on. It's a year of revolution. And this is the swinging 60s hitting their height. Lots happening. And lots happening for me. The first entry we've got is for Wednesday the 9th of October. That is the beginning of the... It's probably the beginning of term, isn't it?

13:10Of the autumn term. Which they call the Michaelmas term. And so this is the start of your second year. You've only been at university, it's unbelievable, for a year. I mean, you've done a lot, but this is the beginning of your second year now. Yes, am I the secretary of the Oxford Union? You are. Yes, and I've achieved the ambition of directing one of the plays for the Oxford University Dramatic Society. Yeah, well no, has that been on yet? It hasn't been on, but I've got the job. And I'm writing for the university magazine, which is called ISIS, where I don't think I really, well, in fact, I disgraced myself by falling for the editor's wife, not my final star, but I moved on from that.

13:50And I'm now writing, it seems, for the university newspaper, which is called the Charwell. So it's the beginning of term. Wednesday, the 9th of October, my first piece in Charwell. A nice spread. Thanks to Dennis Matiaszek, I'm to have a weekly column. Nice spread in Oxford Torrey too, the Ian McLeod interview. And student, Richard Branson's magazine has arrived, my US article looks the business. And R. Branson is still keen for me to do things with him. All's well. The Cinderella read-through was satisfactory. Ian Small, one of the ugly sisters, is brilliant. Michael Coveney, choreographer, is skipping about like a pixie on benzidrine he's invaluable we will have problems with the set kathy the designer has her charming ideas and robin the stage manager says they can't be achieved the pair are irreconcilable my attempts at negotiation are going nowhere it's worse than wilson versus smith on board hms fearless this was a ship off gibraltar where the prime minister harold wilson was hoping to negotiate a settlement on the future of Rhodesia with Ian Smith, who was the rebel Rhodesian leader.

15:11This led to the founding of Zimbabwe. Right, yes. But you're saying that the politics backstage at Cinderella are... Combral. Almost as bad. Yes. I was seeing myself on the world stage, even though I was just on the stage of the Oxford Playhouse. Lunch with Diana Quick. She's fun. Twelfth night rehearsals, not so much fun. Rather heavy going, in fact. But at least they enabled me to see Michelle. Oh, yes. Very good. That's how I'd sort of elbowed myself into this production of Twelfth Night. Yeah. Because I was very keen on Michelle. I don't think she was so keen on me, but I was going to make my presence felt.

15:49Thursday, the 17th of October, 1968. Went to Oxford Station to collect Lord Chalfont. He was a government minister. For the first debate of term. Quite a charmer. Quite a gossip. Not a good word to say about Robert Maxwell, who has just launched a£26 million bid for the News of the World. According to Chalfont, Maxwell is not to be trusted. The bouncing check, he called him. He's a joke, he said, but not a nice one. And he's a bully. The debate was dull. I think Ian Glick is going to be a dull president. David Walter will be a worthy treasurer. it will be left to the librarian edwina cohen and secretary yours truly to liven things up later in life edwina cohen became quite well known as edwina curry sunday 3rd november 1968 agony with michelle because i couldn't get her to leave richard savage's ghastly party It was three hours of hell.

16:57I hate parties anyway. And this was a party full of uninteresting people all having a great time, i.e. smoking and drinking. M wouldn't come away. It ended when Pat Curran arrived and we went off with him to the cinema. Saw 2001, A Space Odyssey. Pretentious sci-fi movie. it's interesting what you say about hating parties giles well i wanted to get i mean two things i always want to get things done and parties particularly i didn't smoke i didn't drink i didn't want to sort of stand around smoking and drinking and just wasting time i wanted to be doing things in this case of course i wanted to be pursuing m who is michelle but you could do that at a party no no because there are other people there other people get in the way oh dear If you wanted to focus attention, get her looking into your eyes, you looking into hers, whispering sweet nothings, you can't do it at a party.

17:57Oh, that sounds exhausting. I think that was her view. So she was mainly at the party and I was thinking, oh, for God's sake, when is this going to end? And do you still hate parties? No. Good. I don't hate parties. In fact, I quite like a party. And I still don't smoke or drink. But I quite like meeting people, moving around. But I'm still skipping about quite a bit. Yes. Yeah, I think I skip about at parties. Yes. Tuesday the 5th of November 1968. Richard Nixon beats Hubert Humphrey for the presidency of the United States. And my old friend, well, I met him once briefly in Baltimore, Sparrow T.

18:36Agnew, becomes vice president. LBJ, that's Lyndon Johnson, ordered an unconditional end to the bombing of North Vietnam at the weekend. But it didn't swing it for Humphrey. Nixon's comeback is extraordinary There's a lesson here and it's to do with staying power My good news is that Neville Coghill's prologue for my pantomime is delightful He sent a lovely letter which I've copied to par How well I remember your father's admirable performance in my first production ever He was most moving I hope his genius has dissented on you in full measure The prologue is witty and apt and on the first night I'm proud to say it will be performed by Sir Michael Redgrave Wow Why?

19:29Because I wrote to him I found his address in Who's Who I wrote to him at length telling him that his Uncle Vanya was for me the performance of my lifetime 48 hours later I received this telegram What fun except with great pleasure, Redgrave. Wow. Well done, Charles. If you dip into those boxes in the basement, you'll find that telegram there. And, well, as you'll discover, was the beginning of an interesting friendship. Monday the 11th of November 1968. The good news. A nice picture of Cinders and the Fairy Queen in today's Daily Mail. The bad news. a very slow and rather dismal dress rehearsal.

20:18It's 2am and I'm too weary to write more tonight. Except this. I found a note waiting for me when I got back to my room just now from Zan. The very best of luck. You always have it because you deserve it. Who's Zan? Zan was a friend of mine. I think I referred to him earlier in the diary. Zan Smiley. He's now a very distinguished journalist. I think on The Economist. Anyway, he's around. And his father had been famous too. A bit of an explorer, kind of, I don't know, Lawrence of Arabia figure, post-Second World War. Anyway, Zan was a friend of mine. Wasn't that a lovely note to leave? Lovely. Bless him.

21:05Tuesday, 12th November 1968. The opening of Cinderella at the Oxford Playhouse. A good show. Lively, funny, well-received. We are playing to full houses all week. Sir Michael Redgrave read Coghill's prologue beautifully. He was quite nervous in the wings. I steadied him with a libation or two of port. He thought his voice might go. As we stood together at the side of the stage, he seemed nervous and distracted. I'm not sure I can do this, he murmured. As I gave him his cue to go on, for a moment, I thought he was going to back away. No, he whispered. No, I can't do it. I urged him on. And on he went, his shoulders straightening as he moved from the darkness of the wings into the spotlight.

21:54He held the audience in the palm of his hand. Afterwards, Diana Quick and the OUTS committee hosted a dinner for us upstairs at the Elizabeth. That was the Grand Restaurant Oxford. Sir Michael was completely delightful. Now I can say I've done pantomime. I was asked to play Abanaza at the Palladium once, but I declined. He talked about his favourite actresses, his daughter Vanessa and Edith Evans. Acting with Dame Edith, he said, was like being in your mother's arms. You're totally safe. Edith Evans told him, you don't start acting until you stop trying to act. You won't leave the ground until you don't have to think about it.

22:39He said that when he played Orlando to Edith Evans' Rosalind, for the first time in my life, I felt free. It would have been a perfect evening, except for the vicious phone call from Barnabas and Caroline Bennett. Barney telephoned me at the restaurant. I was called from the table by one of the waiters and spat vitriol. why were the cast not invited to the dinner was the essence of his message i said the dinner had been organized by diana and the ouds committee he said that i shouldn't have gone because the cast weren't asked i said there were 40 in the cast and ate at the dinner be reasonable he was not ready to be reasonable he was very nasty never mind overall it's been good i'm fairly happy with the production.

23:32We've got lighting problems, but nothing that can't be sorted. Tomorrow is another day. On we go. Thursday, 14th November 1968. Unbelievably unkind Times review. Equally nice review in the Oxford Mail. Treat those two imposters just the same. James Robertson Justice read the prologue last night wonderfully he'd come all the way down from Spinningdale Sutherland to do it I went to find him in his room at the Randolph and when I knocked on the door he simply said come he was lying sprawled out stark naked on the bed like a beached whale a silver hip flask nestling in the undergrowth of his hairy chest I helped him to dress, realising as I did so that he was probably the first grown man I've seen naked.

24:29He's wholly engaging. He told me he speaks 20 languages, but it didn't seem like boasting. And of course, the audience loved him. He knows all they want is Sir Lancelot Spratt come to life, and he's happy to oblige. Wow. The car supper was very jolly. Dan Dini, Chris McCall, and Amanda or Warren, my favourite fairy, were especially sweet. No one seemed distressed about the Elizabeth dinner apart from Barney and Caroline. It seems that it wasn't the fact that the cast hadn't been invited, but that the leading lady hadn't been invited. Anyway, I tried to pour oil on troubled water. I did not stay late because I have quite a lot on.

25:12Two essays, one article for Honey due on Monday, article for the Illustrated London News on Cinderella, Isis column, Charwell column, Twelfth Night rehearsals, and tonight I'm due to be in two places almost at once. At 7.45pm, I'm on the stage of the Oxford Playhouse reading the prologue to Cinderella, and at 8.15am, I'm on parade at the Union in my white tie and tails reading out the Union minutes. I've written them in verse Happily my evening dress will look fine for the prologue and so long as the curtain goes up on time and I don't trip over running from A to B I shall be able to manage the two without anyone being any the wiser Gosh, Giles It's fun, isn't it?

25:56Being two places at once The idea of that still excites me Does it? You can do that in Oxford because everything's two minutes away from each other You just run from one thing to another The back door of the playhouse to the back of the Union And also I think I learned then the essence of being present where you are. Oh, you're good at that. So I was present on the stage. Now I'm remembering, and I have not read this, you know, in all these years, I can see myself on the stage doing this prologue, and I can feel it. And I think I can almost feel the run now. I can certainly do the route. And then coming in quite normally into the union, walking in with the others, getting up when the secretary is invited to read the minutes and doing them in verse and knowing it was a different audience, playing in a different way.

26:46Very together, aren't you, Giles? I think I'd be a bit flustered if I did that. I don't think so. I would, I would. Can I just ask a quick question? So, James Robertson Justice, he's in a room at the Randolph, which is a posh hotel. Do you know James Robertson? Do you know what I mean by him? Yes, I do, yes. In his day, a hugely famous actor. And I think you once said he was the most charming person you'd ever met. He's on my top. Apart from Jack Profumo. He's in my top list. Yes. As the years go by, I meet a few more charming people. But he was so charming. And what's extraordinary is I wrote to these people.

27:20They came at their own expense. So Sir Michael Redgrave, James Robinson Justice, Frank Muir, who was going to come in a day or two, they all turned up in Oxford. They bought their own tickets. They booked themselves the hotel. They came and did the performance. I suppose they liked the idea of being with the young people. Yeah. It was wonderful. Brilliant. Yeah. And they were big stars. These were very big stars. Michael Redgrave, father, of course, of Vanessa Redgrave, one of the other Redgraves, was a movie star, as well as being a great stage actor. But it was true that his performance in Uncle Vanya at Chichester and later at the National Theatre was, for many people, definitive.

28:01It was a production director by Laurence Olivier. Laurence Olivier was in it. The cast was so distinguished. Dame Sybil Thorndike was in it. It's the Lewis cast. And it was just amazing. I'm not alone in saying this could have been the best production of the 20th century. Wow. So this was, he was really riding high. It's funny that he was nervous going on stage, isn't it? I don't know. This may feature later in the diaries. He got more and more nervous. And it became quite a challenge for him. Right. And eventually he becomes ill and he's still going on working. That story will develop as the diaries go on.

28:38Interesting. So stick with us. Okay. Saturday, 16th November 1968. Cinderella at 5pm and 8.15pm. Whole tribe down. Pa brought a coach load from the office. Michelle, perfect. I'm exhausted with a pain right across my chest. Oh, that's anxiety, Giles. I was doing too much. I was doing too much. You'll get the bad back. You could have a heart attack. Yes. You're only 18 or 20. It's all too much. It's all too much. Frank Muir performed the prologue. Complete delight. The audience love him. Afterwards, we had dinner at the Sorbonne, downstairs in the informal bit. It was a very happy evening. We talked about Jimmy Edwards and Take It From Here.

29:26That was a radio show that I loved in the 1950s as a boy. I told Frank how, as a little boy living in Earl's Court, I used to listen to the programme in bed under the blankets on my tiny crystal set. With Polly, his wife, shaking her head but smiling, he kindly acted out some of my favourite moments from The Glums. Oh, Ron, beloved. Yes, Eth. Have you got anything on your mind? No, Eth. Monday 18th November 1968 first night of twelfth night Michelle was wonderful she really was we cannot say the same of the sea captain that's my part this morning my back went again I was bent double what country friends is this France lady and here is Quasimodo to show you around Notre Dame At the dress rehearsal, I'd managed all the lines, but to make assurance doubly sure for the opening performance, I had them written out on the capacious sleeves of my sea captain's shirt, hidden from the audience but within my eyeline.

30:34In the event, of course, my sea captain's cloak, made of rough brown blankets, obscured them, and the long and the short of it is that I left out half my main speech and made a nonsense of the scene. Oh, Giles, you didn't even learn your lines. Look, I knew them at the dress rehearsal. Oh. I mean, look, I'd just taken on too much. That's bad. You're too busy. I was too busy, and I was in love, you know. Excuses, excuses. I know. It's not on. I'm having chest pains. My back had gone. I was bent double. Oh, my goodness. Agony. So I went on as Quasimodo. So instead of saying, oh, that was terrible.

31:11Terrible. Terrible. Anyway, Michelle was not amused, but she has coped. she's coping less well with the fact that on thursday night i'm not going to be in the play at all because i've got to be at the union pat curran the director is going to play the part he knows the lines of course incidentally it's gone midnight i'm in my room and i've just been through the lines again and i know them perfectly oh dear but my back is no better i'm truly bent double. I can't even stand up enough to see my face in the mirror above the wash basin. I'm going to bed now. Good night. This is a low point for Andrith.

31:56Yep. Well, did I tell you my back went again this week? You did. So maybe I'm doing too much. Maybe it's all happening all over again. Oh dear. Luckily, the lines are written on a piece of paper and you're just reading them out. I'm just reading them out from the diary. Wednesday 27 November 1968 I've decided to stand for the presidency of the union this may be a mistake David Walter my main rival thinks it is he says it's a moral issue I've only been here a year it's too soon it's unfair I should give others a chance is he right Robert Jackson Caroline Harvey Leo Frank Holford Strevens etc are all urging me on.

32:43So, anyway, I'm giving it a go. We'll see. It's in the hands of the gods. I don't think Edwina stands much of a chance, and I have the endorsement of Isis. Peter Adamson has written half a page on the subject. Brandreth, not so much a pansy, more a self-raising flower, is far and away the most exciting candidate. Very generous of him, under the circumstances. I'm off to London to appear on the late night line-up on BBC Two. Dennis Tui, Joan Bakewell and company. I'm being interviewed about prisons and the value of creative work, poetry, paintings, etc. to prisoners. And I've just heard that Mr Profumo is kindly arranging for me to visit Grendon Prison, where they're doing pioneering therapeutic work with the inmates.

33:34All good. So you're off to be on late night line-up. Yeah. Were you getting called now to just be on panels? It's strange, isn't it? I'm just turned 20. I'm still just beginning my second year at university. But I'm writing articles for national magazines. Some of the debates of the union have been televised, serious ones as well as the jokey ones. And I do have this interest in the creative work of prisoners. And I must have written about it somewhere. And they picked up on it. So this late night line-up was an arts programme on every night on BBC Two. So then I was. Amazing. Bizarre, wasn't it?

34:13Yeah. You were sort of like an influencer, Giles, weren't you? I think the equivalent people today are sort of influencers or something. You know, young people that come out of nowhere and suddenly start being on TV shows. Yeah. And I thought because I was making this impact that I could become president of the union. That was my ultimate goal, to be president of the Oxford Union. Well, no, it was to be Home Secretary. Yes, but my ultimate goal of my time, my three years at Oxford, I had to achieve that. And because I was getting coverage, et cetera, I thought I'll go for it. And other people were encouraging me, but my main opponent, David Walter, understandably, didn't want me to run.

34:55Anyway, let's see what happens. Well, because he wanted to do it. He wanted to win. Fair enough. And he'd been there a year longer than me. He'd worked his way up. I see, yeah. So he felt there was an unfairness in me. But I was seizing the chance. I felt this is my moment. This is my moment. My destiny calls me. Do you know the song? It's really awful. But the This Is My Moment That I Know is by Martine McCutcheon. Thank you. Who was in EastEnders. I know Martine McCutcheon. We might have her on Rosebud. Nice girl. Lovely. Brilliant. Yeah. I remember seeing her in My Fair Lady at the National Theatre.

35:30Yeah, she didn't. Yeah. She had to drop out or something, didn't she? We'll discover about that if we get her on Rosebud. Yeah, she's actually rather a good singer. I saw a show written by Leslie Brickerson, Anthony Newley, with Anthony Newley in the early 1960s, called Stop the World I Want to Get Off. Oh, yeah. And the big song in that show was that song I've just given you. This is my moment. My destiny calls me. Whoa. One wonderful moment when fate takes my hand. So this is... Well, I've got the record of it somewhere. This is brilliant. And interestingly, later, Leslie Brookers, who wrote the show, became a friend of mine.

36:08He only died a few years ago, went into his 90s, and his widow is still a friend of mine. And I produced this record from 1960. He burst into tears. Oh, that's lovely. He hadn't seen it in 50 years. I mean, if you'd given him your rendition, he'd have been in bits. If we can, at the end of this episode, could we play Anthony Newley singing it? Singing it properly? Yes. And maybe, because there have been requests. We're doing a few live appearances in the future. And people want to hear more of Harriet singing. We might do a duet from that show together. Oh, we might. We'll work on it. We'll work on it.

36:44I'm just a producer. Suddenly you want me reading out my diaries. I'm sorry. Appearing in show tunes. I mean, I don't know if I signed up. You're just a producer, but it turns out most of the letters are written to you. I don't know if I signed up for this. That's because I'm the admin. I'm in an admin role. I'm sorry. We were at the Holland Park Opera the other day where there were a lot of rosebud people there. I'm coming out of the loo and several people on my way back to find you, you're not there, people say, where's Harriet? It's Harriet here. Where's Harriet? I have a photograph of you signing autographs, if you don't mind.

37:14I mean, this is ridiculous. I'll put it on social media. I definitely don't know if I want to be singing duets. Anyway, I mean. I can tell. It's the duet part she doesn't like. You can sing a solo. There's some good solos. But actually, the duet's quite fun. Anyway, listen to the, I'll lend you the LP. And have you got a thing to play LPs on? Yeah. So you can play the song on the LP. And we'll do a photograph of me holding the LP and handing it over. Great.

37:48Saturday, 30th November, 1968. I lost the union presidency to David Walter. Oh. By four votes. Oh, I didn't see that coming, Giles. I thought you were going to get it. I didn't see that coming either. Oh, four votes. I lost the union presidency to David Walter by four votes. Gosh. I was disappointed, but not as much as others seemed to be. Ma and Pa had come down, bringing a bottle of champagne with them. When I didn't win, they took the champagne home, unopened. Oh. Michelle was shocked. She felt they should have cracked open the champagne all the same. I didn't. Either you win or you lose. If you win, you celebrate.

38:32If you lose, you move on. I'm moving on. I may try again, but I won't rush it. The truth is, Michaelmas term is the only term worth having. That's when the freshers arrive and you get full houses. I'm for full houses. Lots of kind letters of commiseration from Caroline Harvey. I suppose nothing that I can say will dull the utter ghastliness of last night. I'm extremely sorry for your sake and the union's that you did not get the presidency and that we are condemned to another term of gnomedom. From Leo Frank in Latin. From Parr, he's written out Kipling's if for me. And from the conquering gnome himself, David Walter, how does one offer one's condolences without seeming to gloat?

39:21actually it's a nice note he's a nice man not very exciting that's all and of course that may be what the people want he ends his letter one final thing you rightly saw through my attempts to persuade you it was a moral issue to stand or not to stand of course it wasn't but that was the only line of argument i could think of all the best last night i had dinner with robert jackson at all souls. It was a most civilised way to end the day. I like the company of clever people. In fact, I only want the company of people who are clever, funny or beautiful. I met the celebrated Warden Sparrow. He was gently waspish but very charming.

40:10Evidently, he likes young men and old wine. He was happy to talk about his famous rivalry with A.L. Rouse and acknowledged the authenticity of the great exchange between them one evening at high table rouse reprimanded sparrow for his disdain of rouse's work you never read any of my books warden do you know tudor cornwall without pause indicating the fellow academic sitting opposite rouse sparrow replied do you know stewart hampshire very very funny it's brilliant isn't it i think it might need a bit of explanation. It does need a bit of explanation. I mean, John Sparrow, for a start, were they still telling Warden Sparrow stories in your day?

40:54No. Well, he was Warden of All Souls from 1952 to 1977. And actually, he defeated the Cornish historian, the author of Tudor Cornwall, who was also a Shakespeare scholar, A. L. Rouse, for that post. So, you know, and Stuart Hampshire was another distinguished historian so you get the joke yeah it's very funny it's very clever so i think we should clarify two things one is what all souls is yes it's a graduate college only graduates go there and there's an entry exam and you need to be brilliantly clever yeah for example i mentioned earlier somebody called leo frank leo frank holford strevens who was brilliantly clever he He wrote his commiseration letter to you in Latin.

41:45Yes, and he spoke normally to me in Greek. Oh, amazing. And I didn't understand a word of it. He was eccentric. He was brilliant beyond brilliant. But everyone knew they wouldn't take him at all souls because of his table manners. So there was a kind of, you had to be the right sort of person to get into all souls. Oh, so this is a gentleman's club. Yes, a gentleman and also, yes. But it's not a snobby. Yeah, the right, academically snobby. Not gentleman in the sense of pucker gentleman, but, you know, the right kind of person. Anyway, Robert Jackson was a friend of mine, is a friend of mine, and he had been elected to all souls.

42:24The exam is fiendishly difficult, you know, with questions like, you know, you've got to spend three hours writing the answer to the question, what is what? Yes, yes, brilliant. And the Oxford Union, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this before, but I think we just need to really explain what the Oxford Union is because I have to say, even though I did go to Oxford, sorry, I don't want this, I don't want Rosebud to seem like a big old Oxford club because it really isn't. It just happens Giles and I both went there but other universities are also out there and they're just as good. I am the Emeritus Chancellor of the University of Chester.

43:00Of Chester, yeah. My son went to Cambridge. I have children at a whole variety of universities from Durham to no university at all. Exactly. And there are obviously lots of universities in other countries too. But for the purposes of this episode, obviously we're talking a lot about Oxford because that's where Charles is. But the Oxford Union. So when I was at Oxford, I had nothing to do with it. I thought the people there were sort of strange, silly, Tory type toffs. And I don't think I ever even went in. They weren't necessarily toffs, but a lot of them were Tory types. A lot of them were Labour types as well.

43:34It was certainly before me. And I mean, it goes back. It's 200 years old. Yeah. And it's the oldest debating society. It's a debating society. It's a debating society. Yeah. And of course, because politics is a lot of what one debates about, there are a lot of leading political figures who became president of the union. And it was seen as a kind of stepping stone to a political life. Right. The people who are mentioned here, Edwina Cohen, later Currie, became a member of parliament and then a minister. Robert Jackson became a member of parliament and then a minister. William Waldergrave, also mentioned here, became a member of parliament and then a minister.

44:14They all happened to be conservatives. But there were many, I mean, for example, David Walter, who defeated me, didn't become a member of parliament but became a leading liberal. In fact, I think he was the press spokesman for the liberals for many years. There were Labour people. I mean, Tony Benn had been president of the union. I think I'm right in saying. people like Dennis Healy. There were a lot of leading politicians who were very active when they were at university. So if you wanted to be a politician, which you did at this point? Yes. Then it was seen as being a rite of passage. I essentially wanted to do everything.

44:52And because my father, we may have discussed this before, because my father had been at Oxford in the late 20s and he'd explained to me that in his day the things to achieve were editor of ISIS. the university magazine directing the dramatic society being president of the union i felt i had to follow in this path and i was called giles with a y i believe because there was somebody who nobody has heard of now called giles isham sir giles isham who achieved all those goals and later went on to play hamlet at the old vic and to become a movie star appearing in a film with Greta Garbo. Oh gosh, so you had that to live up to.

45:34Well, you say to live up to, to aspire to. Yeah. You know, so I'm all for aspiration. And my father had said these aspiring. And so when, I mean, I thought my father was absolutely right, that bottle of champagne. You haven't won, we take it home. Champagne is for victors, not for losers. Ribena is for the loser. Gosh, I mean, it's quite harsh. You have to be quite resilient. You do, you do. But actually, it was a very good thing for me to lose. It was nice to lose. It was so close. You could almost say, should there be a recount? Four votes. There's nothing in it. There were hundreds of people.

46:08Hundreds of people voted. And you couldn't campaign in those days. Nowadays, people have a campaign running for them. So though a magazine like ISIS supported me, people voted for what they wanted. And they didn't want me then. If they wanted me later, we will discover. Sunday the 8th of December, 1968. Essay on Beaumarchais in the morning. With Michel, watch Pride and Prejudice on TV at Tony Holden's in the afternoon. Pride and Prejudice, still my favourite film. And Tony Holden, one of my favourite people. Except he smokes and drinks all the time. Evening, sup a Chinese with Michel. We've been together six months She is so beautiful Tomorrow, early start to Southampton We're taking Cinderella to the Nuffield Theatre for a week Oh, that's good I was impressed, taking my university show on tour Fantastic Thursday, 12th December 1968 Past 36 hours, not good Cinderella opening in Southampton on Tuesday night, so-so Poor house, castamite, sloppy and glum Trains back to Oxford yesterday morning Lunch with David Walter at Trinity Fine Talk on Oxford for ATV Midlands Recorded at Union Fine Anchovy toast in Union Bar Excellent Michelle at New College Perfect We went on to the cinema to see Dracula Quite fun Though Michelle found it frightening And hid under the seat Then to six-month anniversary dinner at the Elizabeth restaurant.

47:54Horrible. We shouldn't have gone. I began to feel ill during the film but struggled on. By the time we got to the restaurant, I felt really ghastly. We were shown to our table upstairs in the middle of the room and the waiter, unfurling my napkin to place it across my lap, pressed his hand firmly into my groin and groped me. I said nothing. We ordered. I'd never been to Elizabeth on my own before. It's supposed to be Oxford's best, but I hadn't realised the prices would be so terrifying. We had the Carre d 'Agnon Dauphinoise for two. Thirty shillings. Anyway, the room was hot, the waiter was ghastly, I was ill, Michelle was grumpy, so eventually, before Puddings, we aborted the dinner.

48:42The bill came to just over five pounds. Five pounds for one meal. and a ghastly meal. Never again. This morning, Michelle was still browned off with me, irritated and bored. I'm obsessed with myself, apparently. I suppose I am, look at this now, but aren't we all? It was a bit better by the time we parted. I gave her some earrings. I'm on the train back to Southampton. Business has picked up, it seems, and so has the show. Thursday, 19th December, 1968. Hugh Thomas is now one of our best friends. We know he's a fine actor because in Twelfth Night, he made the part of Fabian interesting. Amusing, even.

49:31Not something that's been done since 1602, I imagine. We know he's a good friend because today he invited us to join him as his only guests at the opening of Lindsay Anderson's film, If. It was a star-studded occasion. John Osborne, Jill Bennett, Daniel Massey, Albert Finney, etc and a strong film, a mixture of fact and fantasy an indictment of the English public school system and a call to arms for our times Violence and revolution are the only pure acts Hugh plays one of the prefects, Denson and is excellent He said the film was being made during Les Événements in Paris in May I said I was there and Michelle said yes in a taxi you let everything pass you by her line is that I'm existing in the 1960s but living in the 1930s she thinks that I don't see understand notice what is happening around us I think she's wrong I do see what's happening but I'm not sure that much of it is that significant, e.g.

50:40the students rioting in Paris, or interesting. I marched against the Vietnam War because there was a point to it, but I'm not for revolution for revolution's sake. I'm in favour of equality between the sexes, homosexual law reform, sex before marriage and a loving relationship, specific goals, not general dancing around naked in the park high on marijuana. I'm not interested in free love I'm interested in her I don't drink or smoke because I can see the damage they both do I don't want to take drugs partly, yes, because it is against the law and I'm a goody-goody but also because I want to stay in control I don't want to drop out or hang loose I want to work Hugh was very nervous he smoked endlessly he's a very conceited fellow like I was not so long ago perhaps but he is funny and clever and I like him and the evening was an event and we were there Saturday 28th December 1968 the Apollo 8 spacecraft has returned to Earth having taken some truly amazing photographs of the moon here in London we've had a very happy evening We went to the Baker Street Classic and saw Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in The Great Race.

52:06Incredibly funny. Tomorrow, I'm taking Michelle to Paris by train and plane. Her first ever flight, a Christmas present. I love her. Oh, finally, the end of 1968. Sorry it's taken so long, listeners. Thank you for bearing with us. That's brilliant. I mean, that's fascinating, that paragraph. off on Thursday, the 19th of December, about your thoughts, your beliefs, your opinions. She'd clearly sort of struck a real nerve, hadn't she? Yeah, she had. And I was sort of, hmm, responding. I mean, she was, yeah, calling a fuddy-duddy, really, and someone that wasn't able to understand or go with the mood of the times.

52:52Yes, M-U-C there, yeah, exactly. And what do you think? Discuss. Giles. This is your All Souls essay. Go. I don't know what to say. She was right in many ways. I mean, I think I would say what I said in the diary at the time. It's certainly true. Have we had Fred Burnley, the television producer, saying to me, read the new musical Express? Yes. You see, I clearly was. Not in touch with contemporary, not in touch with youth. Yeah, you were a young fogey. Yes, I suppose I was. I suppose I was. But I didn't quite dress like one. But I was fulfilling ambitions that were set a long time before. But I don't know.

53:41I don't know. I mean, obviously the difference was, you know, she, like me, was 20. And she was wanting to party. Yeah. To be with the people who were smoking and drinking. And there were people, you see, who were taking drugs. Not that I think she did. but we moved among people who did do that sort of thing. Yeah, of course. And what I think is interesting is that you say, I do see what's happening, talking about things like the revolution, the student riots in Paris, but I'm not sure much of it is that significant, e.g. the students rioting in Paris or interesting. But actually I think if you look back at that time, what happened in those years at the end of the 60s completely changed the culture.

54:20I mean - Well, did it? I think it did sort of change the way young people were seen, the way young people acted, the power that they had. It changed. No, I don't think it changed the power they had. I think, well, I could be wrong. I think the 60s changed everything. Things like the pill changed everything. Yes, yes. Attitudes to fashion and music, all that changed everything. I think what I was saying, whether I'm right or not, the student revolution, they thought they were going to conquer the world. I see. See, that quotation from the play, the film, about revolution, you know. Yes, violence.

54:53People like our friend, our now friend, Tariq Ali, who we interviewed, who has turned into a figure like me. When you met him, you thought, this benevolent elderly gentleman who was so charming with that twinkle. The firebrand has kind of been quenched. But he was the person, they were looking for global revolution. Yeah, and that didn't happen. And that didn't happen. and really maybe it's wrong but the world is very much like the world was yes you know i mean tragically the world i mean though we've recently been commemorating the end of the second world war 80 years since vj day if you look around the world i believe there's something like 57 conflicts in different parts of the world there's a war in europe war in the middle east i don't think the students revolting changed much right and i maybe shouldn't have said it wasn't very interesting because it was interesting and i wrote it down but michelle noted she was right that i was in a taxi going to see the aga khan to interview him for the university magazine i was not there on the streets joining in with the revolution yeah and that's the other interesting about this section is that Michelle was, and I think has remained, quite an astute observer of you and a critic of you.

56:11And you clearly like that. We don't mind it. Well, we may come on to discuss this later. I don't know, because she is going to be a recurring figure. She played hard to get. Yeah. Is she still playing hard to get? Well, yeah. 55 years old. What year are we now? This is 55 years later. And you're still trying to impress her. Ooh. Still trying to get her. Yeah. Impressing her as a possibility died many years ago. It's never going to happen. Possibly in December 1968. Do we have time for an email or have people had enough for one day? We did the email at the start. Oh, good. So we're just going to say goodbye now, Giles.

56:52Goodbye, everybody. Thank you for listening. I ought to add that this is... I'm Giles Brandress. That's Harriet Jane. She also produces the show, edits it. and gets the final say because she presses the button when it's sort of sent out into the world. This is, in fact, a plain Jane media production produced by her, with me in it, and wonderful music by our composer, Phil. Oh, he's so brilliant. And he's been at work this week because we've got a bit of a surprise coming up for people soon. Yeah, and some new music. A little Sunday treat coming your way. But that's it from Rosebud for today. See you next time.

57:26Bye.

57:33Thank you.

58:13That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leppard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Charles Brandreth. Thank you for listening.